Tarquin's dump stat is charisma

[CaDzilla]

It's bugged me for a while that some people describe Tarquin as charismatic. Tarquin has several attributes that make him a competnt villain such as high intelligence and wisdom scores as well as high strength/dexterity (maybe even constitution), but he's definitely not a charming man in person. Keep in mind, I define charisma as how well a person can tell how and why another person is different from them, i.e. person A knowing that person B dislikes thing C because his/her opinion D. 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html) Tarquin can`t grasp the fact that his son wouldn`t love to see his named spelled out with burning slaves or hear how efficient his troops lit them up. 763 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html) he also thinks that his cliched life`story will end up being the greatest story ever written, even though it's no different from the dozens of other stories that the average bard knows about. 749 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0749.html) Anybody who wants to use Tarquin's "seduction" of Amun-Zora should reread this strip. Amun-Zora was fully clothed in her armour, while Tarquin was still in his morningrobe. Would Tarquin, control freak that he is, let her out of his room with anything mor than a modesty blanket? The most likely situation is that she didn't see Tarquin for the rest of that night.

But you know the villain that does have charisma? Xykon. Xykon puts his charisma to evil use by finding out what makes people tick and then finding how he can torture him with it. Look at his test of loyalty posed to Redcloack. He found out how to make an intelligent and wise cleric kill his baby brother and then used it to rub it in his face.
Xykon also figured ouy his shock and awe approach by his knowledge of how other people tick. Also note that charisma doesn't equal good looks. Xykon is a skeleton with glowing, red eyes and an unrevealing robe, while Tarquin looks like Elan with grey hair and does not have women actively seeking him out.

[dancrilis]

Keep in mind, I define charisma as how well a person can tell how and why another person is different from them

I believe the game defines that as the wisdom stat.

[Shale]

Wisdom is how you figure out what's going on in somebody else's head. Charisma is how you convince other people of what's going on in your head, even if it isn't true. It's Sense Motive vs. Bluff.

[CaDzilla]

Monster Manual 3.5 edition states on page 313 both "Wisdom: Any creature that can percieve its enviroment in any fashion has at least 1 point of wisdom" and "Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of charisma". Tarquin obviosly can percieve the world around him and make observations, his military record speaks for itself.

[ti'esar]

Actually, I think Xykon has had more women attracted to him onscreen than Tarquin has.

(Not that I agree with this line of reasoning in general).

[CaDzilla]

Wisdom is how you figure out what's going on in somebody else's head. Charisma is how you convince other people of what's going on in your head, even if it isn't true. It's Sense Motive vs. Bluff.
People who don't have charisma usually tend to speak in half-truths 202 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) 742 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html)to not have to make a bluff check and instead use their intelligence and/or wisdom to think up a way to weasel out of a situation. Notice how everything Tarquin said to Amun-Zora was true. Tarquin doesn't know how to understand people so much as make them do something because of what he did or will do to them. 921 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0921.html) notice how he didn't sway his friends of 30+ years with his logic. It's sortof like this: a chessplayer with high wisdom would devise a method of defeating his opponent by seeing their strategies and coming up with a counter. A chessplayer with high charisma would convince his opponent to shoot himself. Tarquin views everybody in the world as a narrative device that acts according to some narrative causality and acts accordingly. If a pair of bounty hunters come to his door, demanding money, he finds that sending them to death in the arena is a pet the dog moment instead of a d*** move and will probably live longer due to a single "good" action on his part. And if the bounty hunters are both reptiles, it was a smart move on his part to kill those monsters.

[Muenster Man]

Monster Manual 3.5 edition states on page 313 both "Wisdom: Any creature that can percieve its enviroment in any fashion has at least 1 point of wisdom" and "Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of charisma". Tarquin obviosly can percieve the world around him and make observations, his military record speaks for itself.

Charisma determines whether or not you can determine yourself as a separate entity and then convince others of your 'presence' either actively or passively. Check Plus for Tarquin. Not only is he able to impose his 'self' on every one else and manipulate the situation, but he also perceives himself as not just a separate being but being fundamentally superior than everyone else.

Wisdom represents both common sense (1) and the ability to perceive stimuli (2), including both mundane stimuli (a) and social (b). Tarquin certainly fails on the 2b part, and likely on the 1 part as well. Wisdom looks like his dump stat, you know, if Rich is still creating characters in his head with much basis in D&D's mental ability scores. So maybe not.

[CaDzilla]

Charisma determines whether or not you can determine yourself as a separate entity and then convince others of your 'presence' either actively or passively. Check Plus for Tarquin. Not only is he able to impose his 'self' on every one else and manipulate the situation, but he also perceives himself as not just a separate being but being fundamentally superior than everyone else.

Wisdom represents both common sense (1) and the ability to perceive stimuli (2), including both mundane stimuli (a) and social (b). Tarquin certainly fails on the 2b part, and likely on the 1 part as well. Wisdom looks like his dump stat, you know, if Rich is still creating characters in his head with much basis in D&D's mental ability scores. So maybe not.

Could be both, though Tarquin usually imposes himself through brute force alone rather than actual words 918 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) If somebody with power threatens your family, you probably will do what he says

753 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0753.html) Tarquin clearly doesn't scare Roy or Belkar and only surprises him when he reveals that he looks like Elan. Though that does show that Elan has a great charisma stat by your definition (presence).

Also, if Tarquin actually had any charisma, why wouldn't he use it? 767 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html)
He has a guy to amplify sound with 776 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0776.html) He's also a smart guy. He could probably go country to country telling everybody that he is their leader and should be pleasured and praised. Don't you think that he also wouldn't have to resort to torturing his prospective wives into marrying him?

[Shale]

Could be both, though Tarquin usually imposes himself through brute force alone rather than actual words 918 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) If somebody with power threatens your family, you probably will do what he says

And Intimidate checks get a boost from, guess what? Charisma.



Also, if Tarquin actually had any charisma, why wouldn't he use it? 767
He has a guy to amplify sound with 776 He's also a smart guy. He could probably go country to country telling everybody that he is their leader and should be pleasured and praised. Don't you think that he also wouldn't have to resort to torturing his prospective wives into marrying him?


Because that kind of reality-warping lie required +30 to Haley's maxed-or-close-to-it Bluff checks? +30 from the stat alone requires a Charisma of 70.

[CaDzilla]

And Intimidate checks get a boost from, guess what? Charisma.



Because that kind of reality-warping lie required +30 to Haley's maxed-or-close-to-it Bluff checks? +30 from the stat alone requires a Charisma of 70.
106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)
You can convince a guy with good wisdom with a hard to believe bluff (+10 to their sense motive) to do what you want. Also there are other ways to intimidate people. Also the intimidation that Tarquin uses is through the shadows. Any average person would be intimidated if a leader in their country threatened to kill their family, because they are being intimidated by both the leader and the leader's underlings.

Unrelated, could somebody point out a comic that could disprove my argument?i.e. Tarquin is sauve

[orrion]

106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html)
You can convince a guy with good wisdom with a hard to believe bluff (+10 to their sense motive) to do what you want. Also there are other ways to intimidate people. Also the intimidation that Tarquin uses is through the shadows. Any average person would be intimidated if a leader in their country threatened to kill their family, because they are being intimidated by both the leader and the leader's underlings.

Unrelated, could somebody point out a comic that could disprove my argument?i.e. Tarquin is sauve

So.. Xykon rolled high on his bluff. Don't see what that has to do with anything.

Uh, the way Tarquin uses it is not through the shadows. He's very publicly a general and the soldiers know this. That's the opposite of through the shadows.

[Bling Cat]

Unrelated, could somebody point out a comic that could disprove my argument?i.e. Tarquin is sauve

The Pun Duel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html) His ability to convince others to follow him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) And just generally his entire demeanor. He acts like a character with very high charisma, he has two sons, both with high charisma, who also happen to look exactly like him; While looks are not the end determination of charisma score, they do play a role. He has been manipulating people for something like 20 years, and continues to do so. You mention that he imposes his will through brute force, but ignore that only a few comics prior he had been trying to manipulate Elan into taking the path he offered using words. It failed, but he seemed very confident it would work, which presumably is based off experience of his manipulations working. Also, as has been pointed out, you are working under a faulty (as per 3.5 Rules) definition of Charisma. The ability to read and understand other people falls under Wisdom, while someone's force of personality and ability to manipulate others falls under Charisma.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting

[King of Nowhere]

tarquin has a strong personality. he got the leadership of his team that way, he generally can persuade people to do what he wants without using treaths, people wwho don't know who he is tend to like him. elan's mother loved him without coercition, and it was hinted that his last wife penelope also was happy in the marriage. he is the one dealing with the empress and fooling her, while malack tended to make her angry. he's manipulative, and he's generally succesful at it.
He has Style. Wagonloads of it.
there are plenty of marks that scream "high charisma!" about him.
Of course, since you cannot reduce a person to 6 numbers between 3 and 18, there are also attributes associated with charisma that tarquin miss. perceptivity being one of those.

[Ghost Nappa]

Tarquin probably has a similar stat allocation to Elan.

High Intelligence and Charisma with a dumped Wisdom and decent Physical scores. Tarquin also has better magic items and better equipment overall so he has probably buffed himself more that way

[Lombard]

Tarquin probably has a similar stat allocation to Elan.

High Intelligence and Charisma with a dumped Wisdom and decent Physical scores.

lol what the faerun? :mitd:

[orrion]

Tarquin probably has a similar stat allocation to Elan.

High Intelligence and Charisma with a dumped Wisdom and decent Physical scores. Tarquin also has better magic items and better equipment overall so he has probably buffed himself more that way

That's like the opposite of Elan. Elan has low Intelligence and Wisdom and at most an average Strength score 'cause one of the reasons he took the Dashing Swordsman class was to substitute his markedly better Charisma stat for attacking.

[137beth]

I'd say Tarquin is really really bad at Sensing the Motives of Elan, Roy, Miron, Laurin, and almost everyone else. Either that or he does a great job faking it. So that points to either a very high charisma (to fake having a low sense motive via bluff) or a low wisdom. Or both.

[Zweisteine]

Elan has low Intelligence and Wisdom and at most an average Strength score 'cause one of the reasons he took the Dashing Swordsman class was to substitute his markedly better Charisma stat for attacking.

I believe that the general consensus may be that Elan may not have too low an I tellihence score, his dump stat being wisdom. He does manage good ideas sometimes, when he actually manages to think like a normal person for a while.

That said, the Class and Level Geekery Thread says his intelligence is less than ten, because Vaarsuvius once said he couldn't cast cantrips. I am not sure that was meant literally, but even if it is, his intelligence is not necessarily far below average (8 or 9 seems likely).


As for Tarquin, I would say his charisma is probaby average (10-11), maybe slightly higher (12-13), because of age bonuses. I would say the same for his itelligence, in fact, but another two points up (12-14).

[Ghost Nappa]

That's like the opposite of Elan. Elan has low Intelligence and Wisdom and at most an average Strength score 'cause one of the reasons he took the Dashing Swordsman class was to substitute his markedly better Charisma stat for attacking.

Geekery Thread:

Elan:
STR <20
DEX 13 to 17
CON ?
INT <10
WIS <10
CHA 22+

Tarquin:
STR 16+
DEX 25+
CON ?
INT ?
WIS ?
CHA ?

We have no idea what the Constitution for either of them is. So forget it.

Elan's Strength is under 20, and Tarquin's Strength is 16 or higher. That creates a nice little range of [16, 19] where they could have the same strength.

Elan has sub-par Intelligence while Tarquin has theoretically fantastic intelligence. The creation of an empire by a three-way con logistically must be quite complicated so Tarquin should be far smarter than Elan, probably more comparable to Roy, Nale, or Vaarsuvius. Differs.

Elan has a decent DEX (13 to 17) while Tarquin has HUGE score, probably augmented by magic items. He believe him to be Epic level which means he has quite a bit of cash to stack on a +5 or +6 DEX if he wished. Their scores could easily be similar before items.

We know Elan is incredibly Charismatic, we know NALE was incredibly charismatic and we know Tarquin is incredibly charismatic. Elan is incredibly high 20+ with a belt giving another +2, it wouldn't surprise me for his father to have high charisma, especially if he's managed to convince either by romance or torture to get nearly a dozen women to marry him.

Elan's wisdom is sub-par at best, which make sense because Wisdom is often a dump stat for Bards. Curiously, we have no idea what Tarquin's is, but he's losing his cool and making bad decisions right now so either he's really set in his ways or he has a similar wisdom score to Elan. It could be both or neither, like Constitution, it's hard to be sure.

In conclusion, the only score we can EASILY say differs between Elan and Tarquin is their intelligence. Everything else is deliberately obscure by the Giant.

[ChristianSt]

After reading the thread title I was really surprised at the content.

I thought this thread would contain a rant about why Tarquin is an overpowered munchkin, since I think that Charisma is one of Tarquin's higher stats.

Seeing a statement that says Tarquin has really low charisma surprised me.

And needing to assign a dump stat for Tarquin, I would most likely choose wisdom, since he just makes some really horribly calls in regards to his genry savviness.

[The Oni]

Tarquin may indeed have some low-ass mental stat but it is certainly not Charisma. The reason he has to coerce people into marrying him is that, in spite of being suave he is a terrible bastard, but that only becomes apparent after knowing him for a few days. I've no doubt that Roy wasn't any less attracted to Miko when he told her he wasn't interested after the inn burned down - it's just that he realized under the 18 Charisma was a whole lot of unpleasant self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The reason he has to coerce people into marrying him

Personally, I think that he just enjoys it. There's no way a rich successful general couldn't find plenty of people willing to marry him. He just goes for the tough cases on purpose.

[The Oni]

This is also a significant possibility. It might also suggest deep psychological problems. His ideal sort of woman (if Amun-Zora is any indication) tends to have that strong idealism characteristic of his first wife - Elan's mom, which is where Elan gets it from. Tarquin failed with her (becaue he's awful) but clearly isn't the type to give up easily. In other words, he likes his women the way he likes his kingdoms - pretty and forcibly subjugated.

[Mike Havran]

Penelope didn't seem to be forcibly subjugated, though.

I think Tarquin doesn't resolve any deep hidden psycho stuff - he just wants to get a woman he finds hot. If she agrees, great. If not, tough luck - for her, that is.

[The Oni]

Of course he doesn't SEEM like he has psychological problems - if he did he'd be taking negs to Charisma.

[ChristianSt]

I've no doubt that Roy wasn't any less attracted to Miko when he told her he wasn't interested after the inn burned down - it's just that he realized under the 18 Charisma was a whole lot of unpleasant self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

I cannot imagine that Miko has such a high Charisma score.
From the comic I would say it could certainly be her worst stat (ok, Miko's mental stats could all be pretty bad) - only thing that suggest a different opinion to me is the Class and Geekery Thread, saying she has to have 12+ to cast Lay on Hand.

[I don't know if maybe it would mechanically be good for her to have a high Charisma as a Paladin, since I don't play D&D, but even then this Comic isn't about min/maxing characters.]

[Ghost Nappa]

I cannot imagine that Miko has such a high Charisma score.
From the comic I would say it could certainly be her worst stat (ok, Miko's mental stats could all be pretty bad) - only thing that suggest a different opinion to me is the Class and Geekery Thread, saying she has to have 12+ to cast Lay on Hand.

[I don't know if maybe it would mechanically be good for her to have a high Charisma as a Paladin, since I don't play D&D, but even then this Comic isn't about min/maxing characters.]

Remember that Roy was initially attracted to Miko. Charisma is the stat defining "good looks", "force of personality," "agreeableness," etc. There is a good implication that both Miko and Tarquin are quite easy on the eyes, but they have deep personal issues that they do not have the means of overcoming.

[Math_Mage]

I submit that Tarquin, like Roy, doesn't have a 'dump stat' per se. He just has certain really exceptional stats (Dex comes to mind--even without taking C&LG's value, he runs circles around the Order) and others that are merely solid.

[Grim Portent]

I cannot imagine that Miko has such a high Charisma score.
From the comic I would say it could certainly be her worst stat (ok, Miko's mental stats could all be pretty bad) - only thing that suggest a different opinion to me is the Class and Geekery Thread, saying she has to have 12+ to cast Lay on Hand.

[I don't know if maybe it would mechanically be good for her to have a high Charisma as a Paladin, since I don't play D&D, but even then this Comic isn't about min/maxing characters.]

Charisma is mechanically important for paladins lay on hands and turn undead abilities. A high score also tends to be used to indicate an aesthetically pleasant individual, so Roy finding Miko attractive so quickly could be a sign of good charisma.

[WowWeird]

I don't know if maybe it would mechanically be good for her to have a high Charisma as a Paladin, since I don't play D&D -

Yes, mechanically Paladins really want a good charisma - it contributes to their ability to turn undead, how much Smite Evil improves their accuracy (or is it level that affects accuracy, and CHA that affects damage? I can never remember), how much they can heal with Lay on Hands, and is directly added to all of their saving throws.


- but even then this Comic isn't about min/maxing characters.
This. Almost every OOTS character is suboptimal in some way or another, and Miko in particular would not be a build that would stand out as the most powerful paladin in an entire city, or as one that could defeat six similarly-leveled PCs solo. Yet she's done both, because character and drama overrule RAW in OOTS.
EDIT; Ninjas, man. :smalltongue:

[ChristianSt]

Remember that Roy was initially attracted to Miko. Charisma is the stat defining "good looks", "force of personality," "agreeableness," etc. There is a good implication that both Miko and Tarquin are quite easy on the eyes, but they have deep personal issues that they do not have the means of overcoming.


Charisma is mechanically important for paladins lay on hands and turn undead abilities. A high score also tends to be used to indicate an aesthetically pleasant individual, so Roy finding Miko attractive so quickly could be a sign of good charisma.

I know that charisma represents (at least partially) "good locks".
But in my opinion being a **** (insert your favourite Four-letter word here) should also affect Charisma, so Miko should get a huge penalty on this.

Tarquin on the other hand isn't that bad (sure, he isn't the nicest boyfriend anyone can hope for). His problem is imo mainly that he is just Evil and don't really understands why other people could find that problematic.

And certainly that is my opinion on their scores, It is how both characters appear to me. I can't really prove that this is how the Giant has intended them to be, but for me Miko has low Charisma and Tarquin has high Charisma.

[Math_Mage]

I know that charisma represents (at least partially) "good locks".
But in my opinion being a **** (insert your favourite Four-letter word here) should also affect Charisma, so Miko should get a huge penalty on this.
Low Charisma doesn't mean "*******" so much as "bland and forgettable." (This is also true in real life.) Miko has a strong personality, it's just not tempered by wise consideration or nuanced thinking.

Besides, Miko has at least enough Charisma to use Lay On Hands.

[ChristianSt]

Low Charisma doesn't mean "*******" so much as "bland and forgettable." (This is also true in real life.) Miko has a strong personality, it's just not tempered by wise consideration or nuanced thinking.

I didn't say "low charisma -> ****" I said "**** -> lower charisma (or probably more meaning 'not high charisma' )"

[Math_Mage]

I didn't say "low charisma -> ****" I said "**** -> lower charisma (or probably more meaning 'not high charisma' )"
My argument applies equally in both directions. See also the edit.

[ChristianSt]

My argument applies equally in both directions. See also the edit.

Maybe, but It makes a huge difference to say "A -> B" instead of "B -> not A".

Also I even said in my first post that she has enough Charisma for casting Lay on Hands (which the Geekery thread says is 12+), I only argued that I don't think it is as high as 18, and that I would peg her near this mechanically lower bound.

[The Oni]

Remember that Charisma, even moreso than other stats, is a sum total. Being pretty, strong-willed and insufferable can still even out to a very positive modifier. Also remember that Miko was able to put up a fight against the entire OOTS until she was depaladin'd, so her Charisma can't be that bad - she's obviously got a somewhat optimized build compared to the rest of the Order.

In fact, it might *be* her apparently high CHA that causes her to act like that. Flattered and praised during her youth for her innate talents and beauty, she grew up with an inflated ego and made precisely no effort to actually be sociable or a team player - she figured people would like her anyway. She was chosen for a great destiny by the gods, so obviously things would work out for her.

Pure speculation, of course.

[Scurvy Cur]

Remember that Charisma, even moreso than other stats, is a sum total. Being pretty, strong-willed and insufferable can still even out to a very positive modifier. Also remember that Miko was able to put up a fight against the entire OOTS until she was depaladin'd, so her Charisma can't be that bad - she's obviously got a somewhat optimized build compared to the rest of the Order.

In fact, it might *be* her apparently high CHA that causes her to act like that. Flattered and praised during her youth for her innate talents and beauty, she grew up with an inflated ego and made precisely no effort to actually be sociable or a team player - she figured people would like her anyway. She was chosen for a great destiny by the gods, so obviously things would work out for her.

Pure speculation, of course.

Much like how, say, Tarquin assumes he will get his way on everything and is royally cheesed off when he doesn't?

I would say, though, that it is entirely likely that high charisma and a wisdom dump stat runs in the family. I believe the discrepancy in Elan's intelligence was explained by the large amount of physical trauma to the head inflicted by Nale when he was younger. This leaves plenty of room for the "natural" distribution of mental stats to be roughly on par for all three.

[littlebum2002]

From the SRD:

Does Tarquin have the following?


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality
Very high. He is an extremely extroverted person.



persuasiveness
Very high. He has conned his way into becoming ruler of an empire.



personal magnetism,
Very high. He has charmed many women




ability to lead
Again, high. He IS the leader of an empire, after all, even if he is behind-the-scenes



and physical attractiveness
See above comment on women and wooing thereof



This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting.

Again, he has a VERY strong personality.



Since you have defined Charisma differently than D&D defines it, then yes, maybe he would not have high charisma in a setting which you homebrew. But he does have high Charisma when you use the definitions of that attribute given in the SRD.

[Jay R]

It's fascinating to read a discussion about the supposed low charisma of the most consistently successful leader we've seen in the strip - one who stays in power even after a series of revolutions.

[AKA_Bait]

It's fascinating to read a discussion about the supposed low charisma of the most consistently successful leader we've seen in the strip - one who stays in power even after a series of revolutions.

See, I'm not entirely convinced that Tarquin is the leader of his band. Sure, he tells his long lost son that he's the leader and he may even think of himself as the leader, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. He's certainly not a leader such that his orders are followed without explanation or, if the explanation doesn't suit his team members, bribery.

[Snails]

I didn't say "low charisma -> ****" I said "**** -> lower charisma (or probably more meaning 'not high charisma' )"

That is not how D&D uses stats. Being a jerk can easily be a symptom of a low Cha, but it can have other causes, as well.

Xykon is most definitely a jerk. And some undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm) have pretty decent Cha scores. Are we expecting Durkon to suddenly become charming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm)?

[Raphite1]

This is one of those threads that remind you that no matter how much the Giant goes out of his way to portray something in the most obvious ways possible, no matter how much hand-holding he does for the reader, there is still some percentage of people that will totally miss it, and may even insist that the correct interpretation is the exact opposite of the author's intention.

[Snails]

This is one of those threads that remind you that no matter how much the Giant goes out of his way to portray something in the most obvious ways possible, no matter how much hand-holding he does for the reader, there is still some percentage of people that will totally miss it, and may even insist that the correct interpretation is the exact opposite of the author's intention.

I think we have a winner.

[AKA_Bait]

I think we have a winner.

Indeed. Now, if only we can determine which interpretation was the one the Giant went out of his way to telegraph for us.

[Jay R]

See, I'm not entirely convinced that Tarquin is the leader of his band.

He's the leader of his army, and of the empire.

[AKA_Bait]

He's the leader of his army, and of the empire.

He leads his army by fear and force. He is not the publicly acknowledged leader of the empire, the dragon is. Even as a behind the scenes ruler he was not alone, but part of a 2 person team with a character that probably had a 14 charisma or higher.

[Jay R]

He leads his army by fear and force.

Absolutely. Fear and force, which is to say intimidation and force of personality, which is to say, high charisma


He is not the publicly acknowledged leader of the empire, the dragon is.

Yup, but what happens is what Tarquin wants to happen, meaning bluff and persuasion, which means high ability with charisma skills.


Even as a behind the scenes ruler he was not alone, but part of a 2 person team with a character that probably had a 14 charisma or higher.

Certainly. But did Ian talk about Tarquin and Malack, or about Tarquin? And when Enor threw the spear at him, did Tarquin say, "Their every move makes our victory more complete, or "Their every move makes my victory more complete"?

Tarquin says he's the leader of his band. Ian says he's the leader of his band. Some unknown random party (second to last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)) says he's the leader of his band. Malack never denies it, and Tarquin wins every argument with Laurin, Miron or Malack. He also decides every move of the Linear Guild while Nale was the theoretical leader.

What the heck is it going to take for you to see that Tarquin has the leadership ability to make people follow his orders? Do you need, like 200-foot tall flaming letters or something?

[BaronOfHell]

I too think Tarquin most of all seem to lack wisdom.

I think it's only Elan who's a lower than average int score for the family, as demonstrated in the flash back scenes when Nale and Elan met (Nale kept hitting Elan on the head).

One stat I also wonder about is Strength. Roy and Durkon, both with high strength, managed to hold on to their dino as it was toppled. Tarquin did not. While in reality a single event based on a random roll doesn't give any guarantees, I wonder since this is a story, that Tarquin may have lower Str than e.g. Char, Dex, Int, etc.

[jidasfire]

I don't know about Tarquin having any low stats at all, honestly. Sure, we are seeing failings in him as a person right now, but those are inherent in his personality rather than any particular stat. I'll see if I can break it down by stat.

STR: Sure, maybe he's not quite as strong as Thog or Shoulderpad Guy or even Roy, but he's strong enough to wield a greataxe easily in combat. High, but not his highest.

DEX: Tarquin has dex out the behind. He seems to be a skill-based warrior and dodges just about everything he's ready for. Among his highest.

CON: No clear indicators, because he so rarely gets hit, but he's a high-level warrior type so it's probably not low. Anywhere between average and high.

INT: Tarquin is really smart. He prepares for most contingencies, concocts elaborate plans that, unlike Nale's, actually succeed, has elaborate rationales for his every action, and revels in his knowledge of stories. High, though perhaps not quite as high as he thinks.

WIS: This one seems a bit contested, but he was able to resist Durkon's will-based attacks in the first skirmish, which is probably not easy for the average warrior to do. Hence, he must have at least some decent willpower and as such at least average wisdom. He shows more common sense than Nale (which granted doesn't say much, since Nale's as foolish as Elan is dumb), and while he has a hard time grasping the emotions of others, that's more because he finds the concept of a conscience alien than because he doesn't perceive that others are feeling things. Certainly not his highest, but at least a little above average.

CHA: No-brainer. Tarquin's extremely charismatic. Upon meeting him, everyone (except Haley, who rarely trusts anyone) gave him the benefit of the doubt, which is impressive considering the position he was in. He's canonically handsome, commands the loyalty of many, and has many others convinced that he is their pawn when it's actually the reverse. He may not be leader in full title of his own band, but he probably fills the role more than any of the others do. Among his highest.

At present, we are seeing a breakdown in Tarquin because things are not going according to the story script he's written in his head. I don't think that's stat-based so much as just a character flaw. Remember that Redcloak and Durkon both have canonically high wisdom and both of them have pretty serious decision-making blind spots as well (Redcloak's denial of his past and Durkon's passivity). And sure, Tarquin is hardly likeable at the moment, but charisma can also apply to being intimidating, and more than that, it's harder to make people like you if they already have active reasons to distrust you, which he has given just about everyone at this point.

[BaronOfHell]

I'm not sure on this, but I guess that hold person and similar spells are mind affecting.

If that's the case, then I'm sure a person as prepared as Tarquin would not have let plans of conquest based on a party which risks being compromised through mind affects from the shadows. On the other hand, I don't think all party members have an above average wisdom score.

As such, I find it more elegant if the party makes sure to cast some kind of contingencies against mind affecting abilities every day due to the environment they live in, rather than they all have natural high levels of wisdom.

[Aquillion]

Yes, mechanically Paladins really want a good charisma - it contributes to their ability to turn undead, how much Smite Evil improves their accuracy (or is it level that affects accuracy, and CHA that affects damage? I can never remember), how much they can heal with Lay on Hands, and is directly added to all of their saving throws.Paladins are considered one of the most MAD classes in the game, though.

They need:

Strength, Dex, and Con for fighting.
Wisdom for spells.
Charisma for everything you mentioned above.

So even an optimized Paladin will usually give up on one of these.

(In Miko's case, I think it was pretty obviously wisdom. And intelligence, which is the one stat Paladins don't need.)

[hamishspence]

(In Miko's case, I think it was pretty obviously wisdom. And intelligence, which is the one stat Paladins don't need.)

Arms & Equipment Guide even has a paragraph discussing "When Your Mount Is Smarter Than You".

It begins:


A 5th level paladin has Intelligence 5. Though she is brave and honorable, her warhorse is smarter than she is. How embarrassing. What will the other warhorses think?

[Seto]

Charisma is mechanically important for paladins lay on hands and turn undead abilities. A high score also tends to be used to indicate an aesthetically pleasant individual, so Roy finding Miko attractive so quickly could be a sign of good charisma.

Miko probably has decent Charisma, but I wouldn't say high. Think of it : Roy finds her hot, everyone else hates her. And there're a lot of girls that everyone finds hot (Belkar making it more obvious than the others). Plus, I think Charisma makes people like you, or at least respect you or be in awe. Xykon is impressive. Tarquin is smooth. Elan and Haley are the party's faces. Miko is unpleasant, and no one respects her or finds her charismatic but Roy.

[Hague]

It's always been my thinking that Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom are the mental analogues to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.

Charisma is your ability to press your will on the outside world and your strength of character. Intelligence is speed and accuracy at which you learn, and apply what you've learned. Wisdom is the health of your mind, it represents how your mind defends itself from both the will of others and from tricks or hazards in the environment.

Tarquin is very willful, so likely his charisma score is higher-than-average. There's nothing about his character that indicates he is brooding or insocial. He's wooed more than enough women, managed to convince an ally to put aside serious grievances and has managed to secretly rule entire empires without being outed.

Even if you make charisma a factor in the comeliness of a character, you can't argue that Tarquin has low charisma because he looks just like Elan, and Elan is known to have high charisma.

[Zmeoaice]

Even if you make charisma a factor in the comeliness of a character, you can't argue that Tarquin has low charisma because he looks just like Elan, and Elan is known to have high charisma.

How can you tell?

[orrion]

How can you tell?

You forgot the blue text!

[Ward.]

Personally I don't think the ootsverse uses point buy and as a result, tarquin and his sons (possibly entire family) lack dump stats all together. Apart from elan who was rendered stupid by repeated blows to the head as a baby.

Tarqi himself seems to have displayed high or above average instances in all areas so far.

[Shale]

In general OOTS doesn't work on point buy; Roy has no dump stat, V has only one good stat, etc. But I'd still say Tarquin has a poor WIS, just from the evidence of him being really really terrible at reading people. He just assumes everybody's mind works like his until proven otherwise.

[Quartz]

Don't forget that certain feats and levels can be used to cope with dump stats. I'd put Tarquin's lowest stat - before aging adjustments - as Wis, actually. He's probably got the Force of Personality feat so he can use Cha instead of Wis on many saving throws. And I like the idea of him being a multiclassed Monk to give him immunity to many effects.

Hmm... we've never seen Tarquin attack from behind or similar, have we? Could he have levels in Knight (which has a strong Will save).

[Snails]

Miko probably has decent Charisma, but I wouldn't say high. Think of it : Roy finds her hot, everyone else hates her. And there're a lot of girls that everyone finds hot (Belkar making it more obvious than the others). Plus, I think Charisma makes people like you, or at least respect you or be in awe. Xykon is impressive. Tarquin is smooth. Elan and Haley are the party's faces. Miko is unpleasant, and no one respects her or finds her charismatic but Roy.

High charisma only means you can make the desired impression in social situations.

Miko is perfectly happy with people who do not think exactly like her finding her unpleasant. If she ever bothered to desire an emotional effect on her observers, it would probably be fear. She is not the type to bother with even that. That is not a question of stats, but what kind of person Miko herself is satisfied with being.

From a game perspective, it seems weird to have a high stat that is not exploited. But it is not particularly strange in the OotSverse for that to be the case.

[DeliaP]

I have to swing in and repeat an observation that seems to need repeating every now and then:



<snip>
Very high. He has charmed many women
<snip>
See above comment on women and wooing thereof


whatever else evidence we may have that Tarquin is a charismatic leader (pretty strong, is my call on that), we have absolutely no evidence that Tarquin has charmed many women.

The record is:

- Elan's mom, a once cherished relationship that broke up painfully;

- A former "wife" who he had tortured into marrying him;

- A former wife, Penelope, about whom we know little of the nature of her and Tarquin's relationship;

- Amun Zora, who clearly rejected him, and he responded by arranging for her husband to be killed in battle. It was then implied that he intended to force her marry him against her will;

- Haley, who on meeting he gave her a "compliment" that clearly offended her;

- Sabine, who on meeting he gave her a "compliment" that she dismissed as meaningless.

Plus we have Tarquin's own casually misogynistic boasting.

Tarquin might present himself (and even think of himself) as a charmer of women. But we have not seen any women actually charmed. On the contrary: his actual record of dealings with women is mostly very disturbing and unpleasant, ranging from supposed compliments that actually are offensive, all the way through to (explicit) torture and (implied) rape.

[Fishmonster]

Miko is a hot kung fu chick # 220.
Cha is a hard to define, its not just looks nor is it pure personality. eg; hitler was charismatic (be it hated and not attractive but still). I don't think Tarquin has a 'dump stat'. to me he's an allrounder.

best real life example of CHA? any takers?
...Ravishing Rick Rude (in his prime) :smallbiggrin:

[AKA_Bait]

Absolutely. Fear and force, which is to say intimidation and force of personality, which is to say, high charisma

By this logic, any warlord must have a high CHA and that's just not the case. Force of personality is not what I meant by force. I meant the threat of wiping out his minions entire families (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) if they do not please him. That does not necessarily translate into high charisma. The circumstance bonus to an intimidate check when you patently have the ability to carry out really extreme threats would be pretty good I'd think.


Yup, but what happens is what Tarquin wants to happen, meaning bluff and persuasion, which means high ability with charisma skills.

Or just the regular agreement/domination of the other party. Even a low charisma character can be obeyed or cooperated with.


[D]id Ian talk about Tarquin and Malack, or about Tarquin?

Ian primarily talked about Tarquin, but the whole conversation was in the context of Tarquin having talked to Roy.


And when Enor threw the spear at him, did Tarquin say, "Their every move makes our victory more complete, or "Their every move makes my victory more complete"? . . . Tarquin says he's the leader of his band. . . . Some unknown random party (second to last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html)) says he's the leader of his band.

These are all examples of Tarquin's own view of his position within his band. Unreliable narrator anyone?


Tarquin wins every argument with Laurin, Miron or Malack.

No, he doesn't. He loses his one of his arguments with Malack and he doesn't persuade Laurin and Miron. Prior to calling in his favor, Miron and Laurin are dismissive of what he wants to do.


What the heck is it going to take for you to see that Tarquin has the leadership ability to make people follow his orders? Do you need, like 200-foot tall flaming letters or something?

It might help. Look, I'm not saying that he's not a leader or even that I think his charisma score is particularly low. I'm just pointing out that I don't think there is enough evidence to establish that he has a high CHA or is the factual leader of his group, however he might view it.