Regarding Spellcasting and Polymorph

[pwykersotz]

I have seen a lot of discussion on this board and others about whether Spellcasting is a natural ability or Su or Ex and whether it is granted through Polymorph. I have no intention of going into the RAW on this, as it is fraught with peril. However, a perusal of the Epic Level Handbook found this, and I wonder if it might be relevant to RAI? I have never seen it mentioned before, so I don't know if the Playground might be interested.

From the Seed: Transform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transform.htm)


The transformed creature or object acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature or object it has been changed into while retaining its own memories and mental ability scores. Mental abilities include personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, base saves, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities. Physical abilities include natural size and Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores. Natural abilities include armor, natural weapons, and similar gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth), and possibly hardness.

This implies that spellcasting does not transfer with Polymorph, as Mental abilities are never transferred. To my knowledge, only Baleful Polymorph seems to simulate the transfer of that, but considering that animals don't have spells, this may be moot.

Thoughts? Or am I accidentally just dragging out an old argument?

[Silva Stormrage]

PAO changes the targets intelligence score

[Pluto!]

Extraordinary special attacks would be categorized as mental abilities, and are explicitly transferred with Polymorph. So it's pretty hard for me to squint tightly enough for this to be pertinent.

[Karnith]

Why in the world does the Transform seed classify Extraordinary abilities as mental abilities? On what planet is, say, Swallow Whole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/purpleWorm.htm) a mental ability?

Did the writer forget that there are Ex abilities that don't come from class levels or something?

[pwykersotz]

PAO changes the targets intelligence score


Extraordinary special attacks would be categorized as mental abilities, and are explicitly transferred with Polymorph. So it's pretty hard for me to squint tightly enough for this to be pertinent.

Yes, but mental abilities as a whole aren't moved. Specific trumps general, so a single mental stat being changed doesn't necessarily imply all mental abilities.


Why in the world does the Transform seed classify Extraordinary abilities as mental abilities? On what planet is, say, Swallow Whole a mental ability?

Did the writer forget that there are Ex abilities that don't come from class levels or something?

Technically, while you require the physiology to support it, the ability to use it might be considered mental. For example, humans don't have the Swallow Whole ability natively, but there is that one guy who ate an airplane piece by piece who probably had it.

[Karnith]

Technically, while you require the physiology to support it, the ability to use it might be considered mental. For example, humans don't have the Swallow Whole ability natively, but there is that one guy who ate an airplane piece by piece who probably had it.
I thought that I had picked a sufficiently uncontroversial example, but apparently not. How about Mucus Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm), then? Or Spit Acid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ankheg.htm)? Camouflage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/assassinVine.htm)? Heat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/azer.htm)? Constrict and Rake (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/behir.htm)? Amphibious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/chuul.htm)? Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm)? Corrosive Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/delver.htm)? Tail Sweep or Water Breathing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)? Earth Glide or Burn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)? Cold and Death Throes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/frostWorm.htm)? According to the Transform seed, a creature with any of those abilities would retain them after being transformed, regardless of the physical features of new form, because they are somehow mental abilities.

Many Ex abilities are obviously entirely dependent on form, and the Transform seed makes no distinction between those those that are and those that aren't, calling them all mental abilities. That is silly.

[Tim Proctor]

As far as I know KUO-TOA EXALTED WHIP from MMV pg 95 is the only monster with an (ex) special quality (not attack), so something that absorbs/grants (ex) special qualities would gain:


Divine Talent (Ex) Kuo-toa exalted whips cast spells, gain granted powers from domains, and rebuke undead as 8th-level evil clerics.

Generally spell casting in an untyped special ability and can't be gained through normal polymorph means.

[Karnith]

As far as I know KUO-TOA EXALTED WHIP from MMV pg 95 is the only monster with an (ex) special quality (not attack), so something that absorbs/grants (ex) special qualities would gain:



Generally spell casting in an untyped special ability and can't be gained through normal polymorph means.
Lilitu demons (from Fiendish Codex I) also have a form of Ex spellcasting ability, called Mock Divinity. It allows them to cast spells as though they were 9th-level Clerics, with a few special rules about their casting.

I believe that there is also a Hobgoblin in MMV that has some form of Ex spellcasting ability.

[Pluto!]

Yes, but mental abilities as a whole aren't moved. Specific trumps general, so a single mental stat being changed doesn't necessarily imply all mental abilities.
This is not about specific versus general, it's about whether the text you're bringing to the "Polymorph RAI" discussion is pertinent to that discussion.

Your post brings up a quote delineating mental versus physical attributes of a monster. The two example brought up in this thread illustrate that a distinction between physical and mental attributes isn't relevant to what polymorph does - polymorph provides some of column A, some of column B. This contradicts your assertion that polymorph never transfers mental abilities and no text has been provided supporting that assertion. See why it might be hard to take this argument seriously?

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, the epic spell rules and seeds are so "other than is" that they really shouldn't be counted as indicating anything. They were never updated to 3.5 and include a number of totally borked abilities that are delineated in strange and novel ways. They are a domain unto themselves, and any DM that enters therein should tread with utmost caution (particularly if allowing the Shadow and Mythal seeds, which really make it possible to literally do anything without even trying that hard...unlike normal epic spells which usually take some effort).

Also, BEWARE EPIC SPELLS.

[pwykersotz]

This is not about specific versus general, it's about whether the text you're bringing to the "Polymorph RAI" discussion is pertinent to that discussion.

Your post brings up a quote delineating mental versus physical attributes of a monster. The two example brought up in this thread illustrate that a distinction between physical and mental attributes isn't relevant to what polymorph does - polymorph provides some of column A, some of column B. This contradicts your assertion that polymorph never transfers mental abilities and no text has been provided supporting that assertion. See why it might be hard to take this argument seriously?

Ah, I see where there was confusion in my wording now. I meant Mental Abilities as a whole. Specific ones are definitely transferred in a variety of circumstances.

For the rest of you, yeah, epic spells are definitely borked and the Ex abilities thing doesn't always make sense. I was more trying to see if the pieces fit a theme than anything else.

I take it then that, given the responses I've seen, this snippet carries very little popular weight in this discussion.