Arcane Swordsage Question

[Macabros]

Ok so I know from a brief running through google that Arcane Swordsage is considered broken but I was curious about a few things.

What is its casting stat? I would guess Wisdom but it really does not say.

How many spells does it actually learn? I immediately though oh the same as its maneuvers but upon rereading that section it doesn't say that. It says they learn spells in place of Maneuvers of equal level. So as it stands that section is meant to explain that they learn level 1 spells when they would learn level 1 maneuvers. So do they not have a cap according to raw? So they're like Wizards without the book?

They lose the Light Armor Proficiency but it does not say they gain Arcane Spell Failure Rate right? So if you wasted a feat you could regain it.. and still cast spells without that failure rate?

It does not say you cast them as maneuvers just learn them right? So if you did cast them as Maneuvers then wouldn't the Spell Resistance ignoring trait of the Swordsage follow through? Meaning you could cast spells that normally are effected by SR with no chance of it.

I get some of these are kinda bleh as 'Oh you're just reading it as not saying you can't so you can' but it really is very vague. Could these arguments be valid?
Edit: Forgot something.

[TuggyNE]

The reason ArcSS is broken is precisely because so little of it is specified; it's basically "here's some ideas for a nifty homebrew, now go write it up".

Fortunately, there's a variety of existing homebrew renditions of the concept, so you don't necessarily have to start from scratch.

[Macabros]

Thanks for the links but I was not really looking for Homebrew advice but rather if those questions are legit or not? I know someone who is suggesting this and I am afraid I can see where he gets it from but I was wondering if maybe I am just getting mixed up and so forth.

Also while all four are interesting some seem like they are trying very hard to reinvent the wheel.

[KillianHawkeye]

Thanks for the links but I was not really looking for Homebrew advice

You don't think so, but you are.

The arcane swordsage is not a fully-written class. It is just an idea. An incomplete idea. There is so little given that it is simply not playabe without filling in those gaps with homebrew.

[TuggyNE]

Those are valid questions, as far as I can tell, which is why I suggested homebrew that skips to answering them. :smallwink:

[juicycaboose]

They lose the Light Armor Proficiency but it does not say they gain Arcane Spell Failure Rate right? So if you wasted a feat you could regain it.. and still cast spells without that failure rate?


Arcane Spell Failure chance isn't spelled out in every class description, it's an inherent con to arcane spells. So no, the arcane swordsage would still be subject to ASF chance.

edit: Unless of course the spell has no somatic components.

edit2:



It does not say you cast them as maneuvers just learn them right? So if you did cast them as Maneuvers then wouldn't the Spell Resistance ignoring trait of the Swordsage follow through? Meaning you could cast spells that normally are effected by SR with no chance of it.

You couldn't 'cast them as maneuvers' as they aren't maneuvers. They are arcane spells and as such are subject to everything other arcane spells are subject to, i.e SR unless the spell is SR:No.


edit3: maybe i should read the section in question properly before replying :smallredface:

[Macabros]

Well perhaps in a way, except that those homebrews don't use almost anything from the adaptation section. Most Homebrews I am seeing upon looking on Google are very far from the original ground rules.

I agree its to vague to be a proper class on its own without interpreting the rules to some degree.

Like the restricting the spell list for almost nothing more then to make sure it has a restricted spell list seems like only a little thing.

Changing the rules for how each maneuver is maybe replaced is a tad bigger. The rules given state you learn spells or maneuvers not cherry picked between.

Well so yeah I am asking for Homebrew ideas, but more do the ideas listed make sense for a class.
1: Wisdom is the casting stat.
2: How many spells does it learn.
Q: How to work with this, how many spells does it know to begin with how many does it learn each level, etc.

3: It doesn't suffer ASFR just does not start with proficiency with any armor.

4: The spells learned behave as Maneuvers in that they are refreshed and the like.
Q: Are they treated as spells for the purposes for Spell Resistance and Anti-Magic fields and the like. If not then they do gain benefits such as ignoring spell resistance, acting in anti-magic fields and effects.

[Ruethgar]

1. Wisdom should be the casting stat.
2. It learns up to 25 maneuvers, the variant just allows some of those maneuvers to be spell effects.
A. Up to 6 at level one and 1 every level there-after.
3. Correct.
4. Correct, however I would suggest adding that is must remain readied to remain active(so you couldn't just buff up and then switch).
A. They should be treated as supernatural abilities(like all other magical maneuvers) and thus blockable by anti-magic, but do bypass SR.

A good suggestion to take is to prohibit spells with a XP cost or high priced material or focus cost.

[Macabros]

Well here is my only issues
It says that the Arcane Swordsage learns spells IN PLACE OF which to me reads if you use this then you are learning just spells.

It does not say you learn the spells the same level and amount as you would with their maneuver counter part.

Aren't Maneuvers treated as Ex not Su or Sp abilities?

So why and where did you get these answers?

[Red Fel]

Well here is my only issues
It says that the Arcane Swordsage learns spells IN PLACE OF which to me reads if you use this then you are learning just spells.

It does not say you learn the spells the same level and amount as you would with their maneuver counter part.

Aren't Maneuvers treated as Ex not Su or Sp abilities?

So why and where did you get these answers?

Made them up, reasoned them out, drew them from the ether, pick your poison. Arcane Swordsage has never been "officially defined"; any such definition exists only in homebrew. What Arcane Swordsage means to you is between you and your DM.

Let's look at the exact language:


If you prefer, you could instead emphasize the magical talents of the swordsage by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level. In general, spells from the schools of abjuration, evocation, and transmutation are most appropriate for a swordsage of this type, especially spells with a range of personal or touch. The arcane spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver. In this case, you should remove the class's light armor proficiency and reduce the swordsage's Hit Die to d6.

That's it. That's all the book says about it. So let's break it down.

"[L]earn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level." In other words, learn a level 6 spell instead of a level 6 maneuver as a Spell Known.

"The arcane spell is "cast" as if it were a martial maneuver." This means whatever you and the DM agree it means. I would read it to mean that it can be triggered by the same means one would trigger a maneuver. Note, however, that maneuvers are Ex unless noted otherwise - spells are likely to be, at the very least, Sp. I would count that as "noted otherwise."

Bottom line, bolded for emphasis, ask your DM. The Arcane Swordsage is a lovely idea, but that's all the book offers - an idea. You have to decide what that means to you.

[Macabros]

Alright...