Night is coming

[Edhelras]

I made this observation: If you compare the colour of the sky in 924 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0924.html) vs. in 930 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) - it seems that the sky is considerably darker in the latter.

So, in addition to the elevation of the sun, it seems that night is indeed coming. The question is how much protection from the Sun Durkon needs to survive.

One point here is that as the sun sets, the angle of the sunbeams also lowers. So that Durkon might increasingly need (or find useful) lateral protection (like a wall). And - also that the protective effect of the Mechane, dangling above in the air - will be reduced.

One other question is what exactly causes vampires to burn. Is it the direct exposure to (sun) light rays, or is it the ambient light as measured in candela? Will a sun screen be of any help, as long as sunbeams are partially reflected all the time while the sun is up?

.... I guess there's a reason why vampires do not actually exist, in the real world of physics....

[Morithias]

.... I guess there's a reason why vampires do not actually exist, in the real world of physics....

If you want to really give yourself a headache, consider that the moon is only visible because of reflected sun light.

[Heksefatter]

Well, from a physical perspective, even the light in the upper part of Girard's pyramid was reflected/scattered light from the Sun. It has to be a mystical property of the Sun which affects vampires.

After all, we all know that vampires do exist, having played White Wolf's games and Bloodlines. In the latter, we even see an experiment with simulated sunlight on vampires, and see that it has to be a mystical property of sunlight which harms vampires.

[Edhelras]

Hm. Vampires must exist, since they're too cool not to exist. Any many, many people have heard about them, which they wouldn't have, had they not existed.
Therefore, the issue isn't how could vampires exist, given the laws of physics, but rather: What's wrong with our understanding of the laws of physics, since they (at present) don't seem to allow vampires to exist?

[Heksefatter]

Hm. Vampires must exist, since they're too cool not to exist. Any many, many people have heard about them, which they wouldn't have, had they not existed.
Therefore, the issue isn't how could vampires exist, given the laws of physics, but rather: What's wrong with our understanding of the laws of physics, since they (at present) don't seem to allow vampires to exist?

As a physicist and if I was obliged to give a tentative explanation, I would say that the most obvious answer is that sunlight has some property which is not shared by other light sources, even though it is indistinguishable from said sources with the science available to us. This property can be inferred to be lost when the sunlight is scattered from atom or molecules, ie. when sunlight lights up a room with a vampire in it, but where the sunligt itself doesn't touch the vampire.

[Edhelras]

The srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) specifies "direct sunlight" as the destructive factor. So, does that mean that a vampire - which was extremely good at determining angles and sun-height and such - might survive even in a blazing desert with the sun somewhat around zenit - protected simply by an ordinary, circular shield that was larger than the girth of the vampire, as seen from above?
Or of course, by an umbrella? As simple as that?

[Bulldog Psion]

See also the original novel "Dracula," in which said vampire was able to stroll around unharmed in the day, albeit apparently rather uncomfortable and unable to use his full suite of abilities.

[Topus]

I think they are destructed by ultraviolet rays, i see their weakness as a total lack of protection against it, so you should treat it as a sunburning issue.
Will you get a sunburn under the scorching desert sun?
Yes.
Will you protect your skin under a parasol or a beach umbrella?
Yes, until there aren't other reflecting surfaces.
Besides the rays that are hitting you during the sunset are fewer compared to the amount you receive during the zenith.
So, i think that avoiding the contact with high energy uv rays should be enough not to be destroyed (probably a very high sunscreening factor lotion should be enough too :P)

[Silverionmox]

Or by wearing clown make-up.

If you want a pseudoscientific explanation: a straight sunray establishes a connection between the negative energy of the vampire and the positive energy of the sun. Naturally an equilibrium has to be reached, so the positive energy of the sun pours into the vampire, which obviously isn't very healthy for a creature based on negative energy: you get a short-circuit and that burns. As a corollary, if you would have a sun-sized vampire and a humanoid-sized sun, the sun would simply be snuffed out instead of the vampire.

[Edhelras]

As a corollary, if you would have a sun-sized vampire and a humanoid-sized sun, the sun would simply be snuffed out instead of the vampire.

For the sake of all that is warm and living, I do hope there is a HD restriction on how large a creature that can be turned into a vampire....

[Bulldog Psion]

Or by wearing clown make-up.

If you want a pseudoscientific explanation: a straight sunray establishes a connection between the negative energy of the vampire and the positive energy of the sun. Naturally an equilibrium has to be reached, so the positive energy of the sun pours into the vampire, which obviously isn't very healthy for a creature based on negative energy: you get a short-circuit and that burns. As a corollary, if you would have a sun-sized vampire and a humanoid-sized sun, the sun would simply be snuffed out instead of the vampire.

I like this explanation. :smallcool:

[luchifer]

This is the reverse example in real life (although they do not explode in the night)

Alligators sunbathe when they need heat and energy. Like other cold-blooded reptiles they have no internal body warmth and draw their heat from the environment. In cooler winter months they often move slowly, and their behavior is sluggish. After basking in the sun and absorbing its heat alligators are alert, fast and powerful.

Perhaps, we could apply this to the vampires, but instead of being cold-blooded reptiles, thei are really hot and that would also explain why they seem to attract people :smallbiggrin:.

[Heksefatter]

The srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) specifies "direct sunlight" as the destructive factor. So, does that mean that a vampire - which was extremely good at determining angles and sun-height and such - might survive even in a blazing desert with the sun somewhat around zenit - protected simply by an ordinary, circular shield that was larger than the girth of the vampire, as seen from above?
Or of course, by an umbrella? As simple as that?

OMG! So that's the secret behind the MitD's umbrella!

[Heksefatter]

I think they are destructed by ultraviolet rays, i see their weakness as a total lack of protection against it, so you should treat it as a sunburning issue.
Will you get a sunburn under the scorching desert sun?
Yes.
Will you protect your skin under a parasol or a beach umbrella?
Yes, until there aren't other reflecting surfaces.
Besides the rays that are hitting you during the sunset are fewer compared to the amount you receive during the zenith.
So, i think that avoiding the contact with high energy uv rays should be enough not to be destroyed (probably a very high sunscreening factor lotion should be enough too :P)

But on the other hand, there's plenty of ultraviolet rays in many other light sources than the sun. An ordinary light bulb emits a fair share of ultraviolet light.

If we absolutely have to go by light spectra, we would have to assume that it is something to do with the spectral distribution of the Sun's light, though that explanation has, for reasons already stated, not found favour with modern vampirologists.

[Cirin]

Well, from a physical perspective, even the light in the upper part of Girard's pyramid was reflected/scattered light from the Sun. It has to be a mystical property of the Sun which affects vampires.

After all, we all know that vampires do exist, having played White Wolf's games and Bloodlines. In the latter, we even see an experiment with simulated sunlight on vampires, and see that it has to be a mystical property of sunlight which harms vampires.

In White Wolf, the metaphysics of it were made quite clear in Mage: The Ascension. It has to do with the Prime sphere (i.e. pure magical energy, also associated with divine energy) which sunlight has. By M:tA, all of reality is broken down into energy and patterns, composed of 9 spheres.

A Mage could create bright light with the Forces sphere which was indistinguishable from sunlight. . .except it had no special effect on vampires, that required both Force and Prime (Forces ***, Prime ** I think for True Sunlight, just Forces *** for light which worked for all other purposes). . .or you could just open a portal with Correspondence and pipe actual sunlight in from a place . All of this would be hideously Vulgar though, so mages would be soaking up Paradox for all of it though (you might get away with a technomagical focus of some kind, like a big high-powered spotlight, maybe).

Now, for OotS, it appears clear that only DIRECT sunlight affects vampires. Durkon was just fine in the upper pyramid which was lit with indirect light, but the moment any part of him touched direct sunlight he was burned and Malack then cast Protection from Daylight on him.

Basically if there's an unobstructed straight line from the vampiric flesh to the sun, vampire loses. We don't know about clouds, but they probably aren't enough to save a vampire. We aren't quite sure about clothing, probably won't save anybody, but note that Nale DID rip off Malack's cloak though as he was dying, just to be sure.

[Topus]

But on the other hand, there's plenty of ultraviolet rays in many other light sources than the sun. An ordinary light bulb emits a fair share of ultraviolet light.

Given that in a medieval fantasy world you will not find light bulbs, the amount of ultraviolet rays you are receiving from sources other than the sun is irrelevant. You are not going to tan with a normal light bulb, even if your skin phototype is pale white. You have to absorb light with higher temperature and besides the ones artificially created by men, only the sun has a sufficent high temperature to emit a considerable amount of uv rays.

[Edhelras]

We aren't quite sure about clothing, probably won't save anybody, but note that Nale DID rip off Malack's cloak though as he was dying, just to be sure.

That's an important point, I think: DID that cloak-ripping substantially contribute to Malack's burning? It seemed that way, from the graphics. But does that mean that a vampire - to avoid being burned in the sun - simply has to wear a very large cloak with a hood? If that's enough to avoid being burned, it seems like that sun vulnerability of vampires is pretty weak.

Obviously, severe enough to make it risky for vampires to go outside in broad daylight. And making it more difficult for them to pose as ordinary humans, which is (I think?) a common trope of vampires. I mean, they would have to justify all along that they're wearing all those clothes. But still, it kind of reduces that "children of the night"-part of vampire identity.

One other thing here: What about window glass? Is it enough to prevent that "direct sun light" killing vampires? So that for instance Malack could go about inside the palace, in broad daylight, even without his protective spell?
I'm not sure, but I do think ordinary window glass usually protects from getting sunburned?

EDIT: And if that cloak of Malack's actually did protect him to some degree - why couldn't Durkon simply hide under some piece of garment to avoid the sun?

[Cirin]

EDIT: And if that cloak of Malack's actually did protect him to some degree - why couldn't Durkon simply hide under some piece of garment to avoid the sun?

Probably because from what we can see, if even the tiniest part of the vampire's flesh touches sun, they burn, like when Durkon just barely touched sunlight in the pyramid. Unless the clothing covered him completely, both in all of his flesh and was heavy enough to block out the sun, it couldn't work.

Malack's cloak was huge and voluminous, probably designed specifically as an emergency contingency so that he could hide in it if he absolutely had to. That cloak is now way too far away itself, Durkon (by the rules) only gets a single action before he's ash and spent it trying to re-cast Protection from Sunlight from the staff, and is moments from burning up (on his next action), so he can't try any other action like finding another hiding space. . .right as the shadow of the Mechane is crossing the battlefield.

[Ewig Custos]

Look at panel 6 of 930, sun is not far from disappearing behind the horizon in real world time, but it's a really big number of combat rounds in D&D terms. The battle would be over before sun sets.

[johnbragg]

That's an important point, I think: DID that cloak-ripping substantially contribute to Malack's burning? It seemed that way, from the graphics.

I think so to. But my interpretation is that, with the cloak, Malack would have had say 10 rounds.


But does that mean that a vampire - to avoid being burned in the sun - simply has to wear a very large cloak with a hood? If that's enough to avoid being burned, it seems like that sun vulnerability of vampires is pretty weak.

It's pretty weak when you're not the undead immortal putting his existence at risk. Sure, a stray exposure to sunlight won't kill you, but it's highly unpleasant and you're going to avoid it.


Obviously, severe enough to make it risky for vampires to go outside in broad daylight. And making it more difficult for them to pose as ordinary humans, which is (I think?) a common trope of vampires. I mean, they would have to justify all along that they're wearing all those clothes. But still, it kind of reduces that "children of the night"-part of vampire identity.

One other thing here: What about window glass? Is it enough to prevent that "direct sun light" killing vampires? So that for instance Malack could go about inside the palace, in broad daylight, even without his protective spell?
I'm not sure, but I do think ordinary window glass usually protects from getting sunburned?

Imagining that I'm the GM on the spot making a decision, I'd say that clear glass reduces the damage by 50%, frosted or colored class eliminates it entirely.


EDIT: And if that cloak of Malack's actually did protect him to some degree - why couldn't Durkon simply hide under some piece of garment to avoid the sun?

Durkula isn't known to have a big flowing cape handy. I'd rule that anything that blocks light blocks sunlight, including a big flowing cape.

This also explains Dracula's iconic cape--very handy in an emergency to be able to block sunlight for a short time.

[Edhelras]

I think so to. But my interpretation is that, with the cloak, Malack would have had say 10 rounds.
----
Durkula isn't known to have a big flowing cape handy. I'd rule that anything that blocks light blocks sunlight, including a big flowing cape.

This also explains Dracula's iconic cape--very handy in an emergency to be able to block sunlight for a short time.

It's that "short time" that's kind of making me wonder. But perhaps one could say that every piece of weaved cloth will, by definition, have small, tiny holes in it, so that some very tiny amount of light will all the time seep through.
Shouldn't this, however, cause the cloth-covered vampire to continually burn, small amounts, but eventually causing him to perish?

[johnbragg]

It's that "short time" that's kind of making me wonder. But perhaps one could say that every piece of weaved cloth will, by definition, have small, tiny holes in it, so that some very tiny amount of light will all the time seep through.
Shouldn't this, however, cause the cloth-covered vampire to continually burn, small amounts, but eventually causing him to perish?

I would think so. But much depends on local conditions--someone pointed out upthread that in the first (or first few) Dracula movies, he was walking about England in the daytime. Of course in England, the sun practically never shines through the mist and fog and gloom anyway, especially in the coal-drenched 19th century. So Dracula could walk around grey 1880s London daytime without discomfort, but 1880s Tombstone Arizona daytime would have been impossible. London today would be an intermediate case--maybe he could take it for a few hours in a dire emergency.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The robe may also have had some kind of additional abjuration worked into it. Or Nale may have thought so, and wrecked it as a precautionary maneuver.

[SoC175]

Note that 3.x has rules for the Dracula case.

There is the vampire lord template who is no longer destroyed by sunlight but merely suffers reduced powers while walking around during a sunny day

[Orm-Embar]

For the sake of all that is warm and living, I do hope there is a HD restriction on how large a creature that can be turned into a vampire....

...and zombies. Otherwise, you get giant zombies. And giant vampires. That doesn't end well for the living. :smalltongue:

[Clistenes]

For the sake of all that is warm and living, I do hope there is a HD restriction on how large a creature that can be turned into a vampire....

Dragons of any size can become vampires, so creatures up to Colossal size can be vampires.

[Nilan8888]

... well, it HAS been one long day...

[Amphiox]

One could speculate a mystical component of sunlight, a magic wavelength perhaps, that is 100% absorbed by solid and liquid matter, such that it will not reflect, and will not refract, which is responsible for the lethal effect on Vampires.

[mhsmith]

Winter is Coming too. I wonder which will happen first...

[GreyHound]

I had made the assumption that Vampires had a terrible allergic reaction to vitamin D. Our bodies can only produce it when in direct sun light. I’m not exactly against the idea that vampires can’t handle UV rays though.

[Topus]

I had made the assumption that Vampires had a terrible allergic reaction to vitamin D. Our bodies can only produce it when in direct sun light. I’m not exactly against the idea that vampires can’t handle UV rays though.

By the way their albino appearance could be related to a total lack of melanin thus making them completely unprotected against the sun. Total absence of vitamin D may cause problems in the absorption of phosphorus, assuming they don't take dumps, they are accumulating phosphorus, so they are highly flammable (they should be weak against fire too, i think).

[Tass]

I had made the assumption that Vampires had a terrible allergic reaction to vitamin D. Our bodies can only produce it when in direct sun light. I’m not exactly against the idea that vampires can’t handle UV rays though.

Eh. That's the same. We produce D-vitamin in the sun because of the UV-light helping facilitate a photochemical reaction.

You do get vitamin D (as well as tan and burn) from indirect sunlight too, direct light just tends to be much stronger.

There isn't some magical vitamin D producing property of direct sunlight.