CRAVEN dmg & Crit dmg

[Shadow Revenge]

can someone explain to me how extra damage from the CRAVEN feat is included in rolling critical damage? it seems to be a bit of a grey area to me, rather than cut & dried as some people have insisted otherwise. thx.

[danzibr]

can someone explain to me how extra damage from the CRAVEN feat is included in rolling critical damage? it seems to be a bit of a grey area to me, rather than cut & dried as some people have insisted otherwise. thx.
IIRC, any static bonus is multiplied, any variable bonus isn't. So like +2, you double it. +1d6, you don't double it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

can someone explain to me how extra damage from the CRAVEN feat is included in rolling critical damage? it seems to be a bit of a grey area to me, rather than cut & dried as some people have insisted otherwise. thx.

It's generally seen as a matter of the idea that static numeric bonuses to damage are always included in critic calculations while bonus damage expressed in dice never is. Simple as that really.

[Cog]

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

You 'usually' add Craven damage to your sneak attacks, and so if the critical hit occurs on a sneak attack, the craven damage is part of what gets multiplied.

[Crake]

One could argue that 3d6+7 sneak attack damage is still a variable number and thus shouldn't be multiplied on a crit, since the craven damage is a boost to the sneak attack damage, not the weapon damage.

[Piggy Knowles]

There's an explicit passage in the Rules Compendium that says any static (ie nonvariable) damage gets multiplied. I'll try to pull up the exact quote when I get home to my books.

[Darrin]

There's an explicit passage in the Rules Compendium that says any static (ie nonvariable) damage gets multiplied. I'll try to pull up the exact quote when I get home to my books.

I think this is it:



Sometimes damage is multiplied, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage dice and add all modifiers multiple times. Total the results. Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as those dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42), are never multiplied.


(emphasis added)

It's not explicitly spelled out what exactly is a modifier or what is "extra damage" (which is somewhat loosely defined on page 40), but all the examples ever given for "extra damage" are expressed in dice: sneak attack, flaming weapons, etc.

[Shadow Revenge]

so... from what I can see, UNROLLED damage is part of the multiplied crit, while extra damage that's rolled for is not. Okay. thanks for the clarification, guys.

[Uncle Pine]

so... from what I can see, UNROLLED damage is part of the multiplied crit, while extra damage that's rolled for is not. Okay. thanks for the clarification, guys.

You're right. However, do note that there is ONE exception to this: any bonus damage a ToB maneuver might grant is not multiplied on critical hits (not even static bonuses like the +100 damage from Strike of Perfect Clarity). See page 43 of ToB.
I thought it was worth mentioning it as bonus damage from sneak attacks, craven and maneuvers often creates confusion when dealing with critical hits.

[Andezzar]

One could argue that 3d6+7 sneak attack damage is still a variable number and thus shouldn't be multiplied on a crit, since the craven damage is a boost to the sneak attack damage, not the weapon damage.It is not that variable additions to damage are not multiplied, extra damage dice are not multiplied. +7 never is a damage die.

@Uncle Pine: The statement you mentioned is contradicted by the next sentence:
You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack.If I treat the +100 damage from Strike of Perfect Clarity as extra damage from sneak attack, It is multiplied just as any static modifier to sneak attack damage is mutliplied (like from the Craven Feat)

[Uncle Pine]

@Andezzar:

You're right. However, do note that there is ONE exception to this: any bonus damage a ToB maneuver might grant is not multiplied on critical hits (not even static bonuses like the +100 damage from Strike of Perfect Clarity). See page 43 of ToB.

Emphasis mine.
As I said, it's an exception to the rule. An exception is a case not conforming to the general rule: it means that in this specific case the general rule (= you multiply static bonus damage on a critical hit) does not apply. Thus, I am not contraddicting myself when I say that Craven gets multiplied on critical hits, but Strike of Perfect Clarity doesn't.

[Andezzar]

@Andezzar:


Emphasis mine.
As I said, it's an exception to the rule. An exception is a case not conforming to the general rule: it means that in this specific case the general rule (= you multiply static bonus damage on a critical hit) does not apply. Thus, I am not contraddicting myself when I say that Craven gets multiplied on critical hits, but Strike of Perfect Clarity doesn't.The claim that the +100 damage from strike of perfect clarity are not multiplied contradicts the second sentence I posted. There you are instructed to treat the extra damage from maneuvers as extra damage from sneak attack. Extra damage from sneak attack is multiplied as long as it does not come in the form of extra dice (like it is the case with craven, IIRC there are other abilities that also provide static modifiers to sneak attack damage). Thus the whole rule is not an exception, just an awkward rephrasing of the default rule that extra damage dice are not multiplied.

[Uncle Pine]

@Andezzar: I can now see where the wording confused you. Let's recap:


Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Sneak attack damage is not multiplied on critical hits. Fine.


You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. However, when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.

As the feat's description says, when making a sneak attack, a character with Craven deals +1 damage per character level. The fact that this extra damage is triggered by a (successful) sneak attack doesn't mean that it is treated as sneak attack damage. Thus, it is multiplied on critical hits because it's a static bonus.


You do not multiply extra damage from a strike with a successful critical hit. You treat it just as you would extra damage from another special ability, such as sneak attack.

Extra damage from a strike is always treated as extra damage from a special ability, such as sneak attack. This mean that it'll never be multiplied on a critical hit because it is treated as sneak attack damage.

So, by RAW, you do multiply Craven on critical hits but you don't multiply any extra damage from strikes even if it is a static bonus.

[Darrin]

So, by RAW, you do multiply Craven on critical hits but you don't multiply any extra damage from strikes even if it is a static bonus.

No. The RAW (at least from the Rules Compendium) is: if it's a static modifier, it gets multiplied on a crit. If it's expressed as a dice roll, then it isn't multiplied.

[Uncle Pine]

No. The RAW (at least from the Rules Compendium) is: if it's a static modifier, it gets multiplied on a crit. If it's expressed as a dice roll, then it isn't multiplied.

I always thought that specific trumped general for these sort of issues. The Rules Compendium being "general" and ToB being "specific". After all, ToB specify that extra damage from strikes is never multiplied on critical hits (as does SA damage), while Rules Compendium is a bit shaky about it because at page 17 states that "extra damage dice as those dealt by precision damage abilities are never multiplied", while at page 40 it only mentions "extra damage such as that dealt by precision damage abilities isn't multiplied when you score a critical hit".

EDIT: And yes, I know that Rules Compendium was printed after ToB. However, this doesn't change the fact that it's definitely not as clear as it should've been on some issues, not even by RAW.

[Darrin]

I always thought that specific trumped general for these sort of issues. The Rules Compendium being "general" and ToB being "specific".

The problem I have with that (and it's probably just specific to me) is that when ToB mentions in Chapter 3, page 43, it's speaking in very general terms, as in this is a general overview of how maneuvers/strikes work, and here's a general statement about criticals. The more specific rules on criticals are still in the PHB/Rules Compendium.

However, I can see why someone could see it the other way around.

[Chronos]

Wait a minute... If the extra damage from Craven isn't actually sneak attack damage, does that mean that it can affect undead? I don't think there's anything that actually prevents you from sneak attacking undead-- They're immune to the extra damage, but that doesn't mean it's not a sneak attack.

[Andezzar]

Regardless of whether the extra damage is sneak attack damage you cannot affect undead with the extra damage from craven:
A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack.

[Eldest]

The problem I have with that (and it's probably just specific to me) is that when ToB mentions in Chapter 3, page 43, it's speaking in very general terms, as in this is a general overview of how maneuvers/strikes work, and her's a general statement about criticals. The more specific rules on criticals are still in the PHB/Rules Compendium.

However, I can see why someone could see it the other way around.

Well, the PHB/Rules Compendium is required to know what a crit is, so I'd say that's more general. They deal with all crits. ToB says what happens with crits and maneuvers specifically.

[Curmudgeon]

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Sneak attack damage is not multiplied on critical hits. Fine.
Sorry, but you've misunderstood; "this" (highlighted above) refers to sneak attack dice, as specifically mentioned. Any non-dice part of sneak attack (which is none, for the vanilla Rogue class feature) would be multiplied, as per the general rule on page 134 of Player's Handbook:
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage (see Multiplying, page 304).
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied.

Wait a minute... If the extra damage from Craven isn't actually sneak attack damage, does that mean that it can affect undead?
Craven's bonus is sneak attack damage; it's just not sneak attack damage from dice.

[Uncle Pine]

Wait a minute... If the extra damage from Craven isn't actually sneak attack damage, does that mean that it can affect undead? I don't think there's anything that actually prevents you from sneak attacking undead-- They're immune to the extra damage, but that doesn't mean it's not a sneak attack.

You only gain the extra damage from Craven on sneak attacks. This means you don't get extra damage against creatures that are immune to sneak attack like creatures of the undead type. Extremely RAW speaking, the feat doesn't say that it is sneak attack damage, but that it's bonus damage that you get in a specific condition (sneak attack). Either way, you don't get it against undead foes and it is multiplied on a critical hit.


The problem I have with that (and it's probably just specific to me) is that when ToB mentions in Chapter 3, page 43, it's speaking in very general terms, as in this is a general overview of how maneuvers/strikes work, and here's a general statement about criticals. The more specific rules on criticals are still in the PHB/Rules Compendium.

However, I can see why someone could see it the other way around.

I can also see how someone could read the RAW the other way about ToB strikes and critical hits. It's really just a matter of what to consider general and what specific.
Anyway, it wasn't my intention to open such a Pandora's box and derail the thread. Sorry OP!

[Tvtyrant]

IIRC, any static bonus is multiplied, any variable bonus isn't. So like +2, you double it. +1d6, you don't double it.

Does that mean if I used maximized shocking grasp as a dusk blade the lightning multiplies but normally it does not?

[Darrin]

Does that mean if I used maximized shocking grasp as a dusk blade the lightning multiplies but normally it does not?

No. The damage was still expressed in dice, but you used an effect to maximize the result of the dice. It's still "extra dice" at that point, not a modifier.

[Xerlith]

The thing is, touch spells DO critical hit. So a crit on a Shocking Grasp would be 10d6 anyway.

[DarkSonic1337]

The thing is, touch spells DO critical hit. So a crit on a Shocking Grasp would be 10d6 anyway.

This does not apply to a Duskblade using arcane channeling, as there was no attack roll for the spell.

Instead you'd resolve the critical hit with the weapon, then resolve the spell separately.

[Xerlith]

My bad then, my group's been playing PF Maguses much more often than Duskblades. :smallbiggrin:

[InigoMontoya]

Technically, the extra damage listed under the rogue's sneak attack... Isn't Sneak Attack damage. There's no reserved term for that, to my knowledge.

There is "extra damage from critical hits". There's "extra damage from a sneak attack". Neither are "sneak attack damage". The difference is subtle, but as important to one of the above questions as "variable damage" versus "extra damage dice".

Craven is not Sneak attack damage. However, it is extra damage that applies exclusively due to a sneak attack being made. Therefore, it is quite reasonable to interpret that it is extra damage from a sneak attack. Thus, anything immune to extra damage from sneak attacks is immune to Craven damage.