Taint discussion

[Xuldarinar]

Just some general points i'd like to discuss really.


What is the best version of the taint system?

What do you think of the various creatures that inherently involve taint?

What do you think of the taint-oriented PrCs?

Of what I am aware of at least:
PrC Name|Source
Corrupt Avenger|HoH
Maho-Bujin|OA
Maho-Tsukai|OA
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine|HoH
Subverted Psion|Mind's Eye: HoH (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a)
Tainted Scholar|HoH
Tainted Sorcerer|UA
Tainted Warrior|UA

HoH: Heroes of Horror
OA: Oriental Adventures
UA: Unearthed Arcana

Regarding the rule involving undead and evil outsiders, which is the correct interpretation?

1: Your minimum value for taint (corruption and depravity). You can build from here.

2: Your starting value for taint (corruption and depravity). You can gain or lose from this point.

3: Your minimum and your maximum for taint (corruption and depravity) is based on your charisma score. The lich listed in the monster manual, in this case, would have effective taint (corruption and depravity) equal to 7. Which means for saves, we are talking effectively an ability score of 14. As for bonus spells and maximum spell level, 17. In either case, this is weaker to cast from. If this is the case, then charisma may dictate simply their ability to utilize taint and not the actual presence.


How do you think Con - and taint (or corruption) interact under the different versions of taint? Where are the thresholds for mild, moderate, and severe?

Anything else really involving taint really.

[Xuldarinar]

Looking back at taint from Oriental Adventures, which UA's taint rules and HoH's taint rules build from, I think i've resolved one question I had.


From Oriental Adventures: Page 235


Shadowlands Monsters and the Taint
Creatuers with the Shadowlands subtype do not acquire Taint and are not harmed by it, since it makes up part of their very nature. For purposes of detect Taint, spellcasting, and other effects, a Shadowlands creature is considered to have a Taint score equal to half its Charisma score. Undead creatures add +1 to this number, while outsiders add +2. Thus, a Shadowlands skeleton has a Taint score of 6, a dokufu has a Taint score of 7, and a kyoso no oni has a Taint score of 12.


While later versions do not include the shadowlands subtype, they simply made this a part of Undead and (Evil) when taint is included. Of course, in these cases, it isn't any longer explicitly stated that they cannot acquire taint, just implied that may be the case.

[ArcturusV]

Only have used the OA version myself.

Things I liked about it:

There was no way to actually get rid of all of your taint. You always kept at least 1. I felt this was an interesting thing that DnD generally doesn't do, lasting harm. In a world where Death is something you can cure several times a day, where having your head removed might end up as "no biggie", having something which even slightly cripples a character (Like the Con and Wis penalties from Taint) which you can't get rid of by any means other than high magic, and even then can't get rid of completely, added a bit of mechanical Horror Elements to the game that are otherwise missing.

Playing up the listed effects of Taint, in this case the mutations inside your body and the insanity that warps your mind. No real mechanical rules for it other than the Con and Wis penalties, but it's kinda fun to mess with characters. And players are kind of willing to accept the fact that they may be getting false information from me as the DM because they have 6 Taint and thus are quite mad.

Things I don't like about it:

I felt the Maho was a poor payoff. By the fluff Maho was supposed to be this seductive, dark power. Everyone knew it was going to rot your mind and body, bind your soul to dark powers, etc. But they picked it up because it was an easy access to more powerful magic than they could otherwise have. But the Maho spells, what few there were... just didn't strike me as THAT impressive. It didn't have the "raw power" I expected for trading in my soul.

The Maho-Bujin could have been better. It felt very Front Loaded or level taxed. Interesting because it was the first PrC I saw that could be entered from level 2. The first level in it was quite good... and then it slogged on, being uninteresting for several levels. The only real payoff for taking more levels is eventually acquiring a template after level 10 which could give you some benefits including "I am effectively a Maho-Tsukai 10 for free". So it was this weird PrC where a one level dip in it was quite good. Riding it for 10 levels was quite good. Anything else was generally a stupid idea.

[Lord Haart]

Whichever one gives me most feats for non-negligible set of penalties. That said, i'm only familiar with Heroes of Horror version. It has some sets of taint that are pretty negligible in effect and it is written in a very confusing way, so it took me and one of my friends half a year to get most nuances, but it's still a way to say "Look, i did pay for it quite heavily, these feats are for customisation purposes when i just can't fit it in otherwise, not for powergaming".

Ah, feats. Things to sell your soul for, as many times as you get to. Again, i'm all in for fair play, and very moot Elder Evil servitute thingy definitely needs said Evils or their high-level cultists telepathically demanding more than mere lip service.

[BWR]

the R&K Taint systems the d20 was based on. Apart from that, the version found in the Rokugan d20 sourcebook. Sadly, they introduced a spell that could remove the last point of Taint, which we just houseruled to "if you die from this damage, all Taint is removed". Sounds sucky by D&D standards, but at least you die pure and your soul can be reincarnated.

The Taint was supposed to give you significant benefits as well as significant drawbacks, and this was rather poorly implemented in the d20 versions. The d20 conversion of the maho-bujin was seriously disappointing. The original was truly scary (nothing like seeing the look of horror on your player's face when she realizes what she's up against), and the maho spells were underwhelming. The Boodspeakers supplement had a few pretty decent spells (read: from crap to wtfpwn) and is worth checking out if the Taint and blood magic appeals to you. Most of the stuff in there is kinda meh, but there are a few gems.

[Phelix-Mu]

The best version of Taint that I've used was a hybrid of the Heroes of Horror version and the one from Oriental Adventures. I made heavy use of the akuma (I think that was it) from OA (or was it Rokugan...been a good while since that campaign) that could deal heaps of taint, and some of which had the taint-dealing spells from the same source as SLAs. Very formidable combo.

A big thing to consider about taint balance and implementation at high levels is that, even if the PCs are largely immune (Pure Soul, mundane blockers, or other healing), then large-scale encounters with taint will still threaten huge parts of the populace/allies/armies with certain madness/corruption/death. For a good-aligned party (or even a neutral one), this can be a very difficult and level-appropriate challenge to deal with. A major component of the final battle in the campaign I mentioned (which lasted into epic levels) was to try to mitigate the huge taint involved, survive it's presence, and prevent it from spreading out of control or decimating allies before they could be effective.

[BWR]

Hence events like the Five Nights of Shame or the Rain of Blood.

[No brains]

The most awful price to pay for tainted power is an unbalanced game. :smalltongue:
The DM has to be really careful in what they implement along with taint. For 1000xp, any player could become a necropolitan and become immune to any of the drawbacks. Even without undead cheats, the DM has to be careful to make certain that the cost is weighed against the power; too light a price and the players and character alike go mad, too steep a price and they know better than to waste their time.

The power from taint should be the bait on a hook: players can try to nibble, but if they bite down hard, they're taken as prisoners of a mysterious force above.

[Xuldarinar]

The most awful price to pay for tainted power is an unbalanced game. :smalltongue:
The DM has to be really careful in what they implement along with taint. For 1000xp, any player could become a necropolitan and become immune to any of the drawbacks. Even without undead cheats, the DM has to be careful to make certain that the cost is weighed against the power; too light a price and the players and character alike go mad, too steep a price and they know better than to waste their time.

The power from taint should be the bait on a hook: players can try to nibble, but if they bite down hard, they're taken as prisoners of a mysterious force above.

The old undead/taint cheat. Thats cute. If the issue is of classes that use it as a caster stat.. its not a problem. I also have to bring up, you lose 1 level + the xp, and that is after you find a -specific- city and petition for the transformation.

Forever, your taint is one-half your charisma score, plus one.

Your average charisma score, 10, would result in a taint score of 6, which would be a 16 as a caster stat. An 18 charisma, your highest natural, results im a 10, which behaves as a 20 as a casting stat. 20 Charisma equals 11 taint, behaves as 21. 22 results in a taint score of 12, behaves as 22. If you have a higher charisma than that, you are better off just using charisma

Granted, with HoH taint especially, it can be very unbalancing when it can be utilized otherwise.