Ice Slick spell DC?

[Sith_Happens]

I recently recommended the Ice Slick spell from Frostburn to one of my party members, but reading the spell again afterwards there's no indication what the DC is on the Balance check it forces.

The "Saving Throw: see text" line maybe implies that that it's supposed to be equal to your save DC, but the description doesn't actually say that. My first thought was that obviously it must just be the normal DC to Balance on ice... except that there isn't one. It's a DC 10 to run or charge on ice, but just walking or hustling has no check at all unless it's also a narrow surface (in which case the ice adds 5 to the DC for the width).

So, what gives?:smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You use the Balance skill to determine the DC. It would most likely be severely slippery from Ice Slick, plus any other considerations per the skill's DC modifiers. It's up to the DM to determine the DC, but I'd say it should always be at least base 10, +5 for severely slippery, for a minimum of 15.

[Sith_Happens]

Is there no RAW for it then?

[TiaC]

Pages 21 and 22 of frostburn have rules for an ice sheet.

[Sith_Happens]

Pages 21 and 22 of frostburn have rules for an ice sheet.

Already looked there. They're the same rules in the DMG, namely DC 10 to run or charge and +5 to DCs from other circumstances. Neither of which addresses a creature that isn't moving at all when you cast Ice Slick.

[Darrin]

The "Saving Throw: see text" line maybe implies that that it's supposed to be equal to your save DC, but the description doesn't actually say that. My first thought was that obviously it must just be the normal DC to Balance on ice... except that there isn't one. It's a DC 10 to run or charge on ice, but just walking or hustling has no check at all unless it's also a narrow surface (in which case the ice adds 5 to the DC for the width).

So, what gives?:smallconfused:

I suspect this is the result of someone cutting & pasting the grease spell, and then forgot to stick to the exact wording of grease. Unfortunately, all of the "don't fall down" spells have this problem... there is no consistent mechanic for these spells, and all of them work a little differently.

For ice slick, I would recommend you use the typical spell's save DC: 11 + Wis modifier. Instead of a Ref save, you use a Balance check. That would be consistent with the "See text" note: there is a save DC, and you calculate it normally, but you use a Balance check instead of a Ref save. (As a house rule, I would probably allow the target to choose either a Ref save or Balance check at the typical spell save DC. That way at higher levels you're not completely screwjobbing someone who never put any ranks in Balance but still gets progressively higher Ref saves. That and hardly anything in the MM1-5 ever puts ranks in Balance, so this 1st level spell becomes uberpowerful against anything really big with a lousy Dex.)

Grease has different mechanics. There's a Ref save vs. fall when the spell is first cast, and another save for any creature still in the area when the caster's turn comes up again during the spell's duration. If any creature attempts to walk within or through the area, there's a separate check: Balance DC 10. If that check fails by more than 5, the creature falls. If they don't fail by more than 5, they have to make another Ref save against the spell's original DC.

Sleet storm also involves slippery ice, but there's no Ref save. Creatures moving within or through the area make a Balance check DC 10 or fall, but no Ref save if they fail the check. (The Balance check DC 10 that keeps showing up in the spells leads me to believe whichever designer wrote the spells thought that was the default DC for slippery ice without realizing the Balance skill and DMG says something different.)

Path of frost (Dragon Magic) is the real head-scratcher, as it says "Reflex negates" in the stat block but then never mentions a Ref save in the spell text. I want to blame "copy&paste" but I have no idea where the "Reflex negates" comes from. It looks like if you cast this on a square occupied by a creature, it gets a Reflex save to negate the effect. The text doesn't say exactly what happens on a failed save, but as far as I can determine, they fall prone. All of the other spell effects (difficult terrain and cold damage) are triggered when entering a square, not for being inside the square when the spell is cast. If the creature makes the Ref save, and can then exit to a safe square when their turn comes up, then they can avoid the effects of the spell entirely.

Impeding stones (Cityscape) also has different mechanics, and the stat block says "Reflex partial; see text". When the spell is cast, every creature in the affected area must make a Ref save or fall prone. On the caster's subsequent turns, affected creatures choose to make either a Ref save or Balance check. There's no mention of the DC for the Balance check, so I would assume it's the same as the Ref save.

Let's see... is that all the "slippery" spells? Ah:

Freezing fog (Spell Compendium): Similar to grease, Ref save when the spell is cast, then a Balance check DC 10 to move through. However, there is no additional Ref save if the Balance check fails.

Incendiary Slime (Complete Mage): Works just like grease, except there's an additional Ref save if the slime is on fire.

Flash-Freeze (Frostburn): DC 15 Balance checks every round, but only if you're dumb enough to create icebergs in water and then try to stand on top of them.

Frostfell (Frostburn): It covers every object in the affected area with slippery ice... presumably this includes the ground, but no mention is made of any special saves or checks required, other than what the DMG mentions (difficult terrain, Balance check DC 10 to run/charge).

Ring of the White Worm (Frostburn): Has a "freezing fog" effect, but its apparently different from the Spell Compendium version, essentially the effects of solid fog + grease.

Vial of Icy Sheets (Frostburn): Reflex save DC 11 when the ice is first deployed, and another Ref save if the creature says in the area on subsequent rounds. No mention of a Ref save for entering the area, although that might count as being "caught" in the area. No mention of Balance checks, either.

So there you go. Pretty much every single time the designers came up with a "slippery surface" effect, they made up a new mechanic pretty much on the spot. Did I miss any?