3.5 Embrace of Shadow from Umbral disciple 3

[Norin]

Hello!

I hardly ever see this mentioned in Rogue builds and such.
What you do is grab the Midnight Dodge feat to gain essentia pool, grab 3 levels of Umbral Disciple and you have 30% miss chance + Hide in Plain Sight (su) (+SA progression).

Where is the drawback compared to other HiPS methods? Am I missing something here?
Or is the source too obscure to get more mention?

[anacalgion]

No idea. I played an Umbral Disciple not long ago and it was great. Go for it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's mainly it's obscurity, I believe. You see it pop up in Iron Chef every now and then.

It is a pretty awesome class, though. Incarnum doesn't get nearly enough love.

[Norin]

Im using it in my backup character for my current campaign.

It looks sweet, I agree. Any drawback at all compared to say Shadowdancer HiPS?
It's more or less better isn't it?

The feat tax and later entry on Shadowdancer puts me off using it.

[OldTrees1]

It does not remove the need for cover/concealment. Instead the same ability provides a form of concealment. If that concealment is negated then the need for cover/concealment is not satisfied.

It costs 3 levels and is active at ECL8 compared to the 1 level of Shadowdancer (also at ECL 8).

In practice it is much better than Shadowdancer's ability.

[Chronos]

Personally, I'd prefer to qualify via a one-level dip in Incarnate rather than via a feat. There are a fair number of soulmelds that are really useful for a sneaky type (though unfortunately, none that gives a usable bonus to Hide or Move Silently).

But yeah, the main drawback is that Magic of Incarnum is a source that's not often allowed. Oh, and it's also supernatural, but extraordinary sources of HiPS (and extraordinary ways to meet the concealment requirement) are hard to come by anyway, so that's not too much grounds for complaint.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It does not remove the need for cover/concealment. Instead the same ability provides a form of concealment. If that concealment is negated then the need for cover/concealment is not satisfied.

It costs 3 levels and is active at ECL8 compared to the 1 level of Shadowdancer (also at ECL 8).

In practice it is much better than Shadowdancer's ability.

This is the part that confuses me - How are you getting 10 ranks in Hide before 7th level? You get Shadowdancer HiPS at 8th level (without skill shenanigans), the same level as UD HiPS.

And you're forgetting the other parts - while it does take 3 levels to get it, it also gives you +1d6 SA. And, you know, doesn't take 3 feats to be able to enter (It takes one feat, or a class level, if you're not a Duskling/Azurin).

[Chronos]

A prestige class requiring three feats isn't, in itself, such a big deal. The problem is when it requires three feats that would otherwise be completely useless for your build. I really can't justify Shadowdancer in anything but a core-only environment.

[OldTrees1]

This is the part that confuses me - How are you getting 10 ranks in Hide before 7th level? You get Shadowdancer HiPS at 8th level (without skill shenanigans), the same level as UD HiPS.


10 ranks as a prereq for Shadowdancer = enter Shadowdancer at 8th level (Rog 7 to get the 10 ranks)

8 ranks as a prereq for Umbral Disciple = enter Umbral Disciple at 6th level (Rog 5 to get the 8 ranks). At 3rd level (ECL 8 = Rog 5 + Umbral 3) you get the class feature.

Yes it is the same level (ECL8=ECL8)

Umbral Disciple has the almost completely superior ability. I mentioned the level cost as one of the few areas that Shadowdancer is cheaper. (Say you were playing E8 where levels are much more precious and feats are less precious.)

[gorfnab]

Azurin UA Generic Expert (if low Int mod) or UA Generic Warrior (if high Int mod, for skill prereqs) 1/ Thief of Life (FoE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a&page=3)) 10/ Umbral Disciple 9 - might be worth looking into, not the most Op but it has some synergy.

[danzibr]

Can get some sneakery from 1 level of Totemist (shape Kruthik Claws, +4 competence to Hide and Move Silently). 1 more level for Totem binds, great stuff there.

[OldTrees1]

Azurin UA Expert (if low Int mod) or Warrior (if high Int mod, for skill prereqs) 1/ Thief of Life (FoE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060911a&page=3)) 10/ Umbral Disciple 9 - might be worth looking into, not the most Op but it has some synergy.

Thief of Life requires +2d6 Sneak Attack.
Also why Thief of Life? Going Necropolitian (after Umbral Disciple 1) and taking the Lifesense feat seems better.

[gorfnab]

Thief of Life requires +2d6 Sneak Attack.

One of the bonus feat options for the UA Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) is 2d6 sneak attack. So for either the Unearthed Arcana Generic Expert or Warrior all you would need to do is make sure your skill list includes Hide, Move Silently, Heal, Knowledge Arcana, and Knowledge Religion. Put 2 ranks in Knowledge Religion, 4 ranks in each of the rest, and select Sneak Attack as the bonus feat.



Also why Thief of Life? Going Necropolitian (after Umbral Disciple 1) and taking the Lifesense feat seems better.
Thief of Life can steal Essentia (Borrow Vigor and Steal Immortality) which can then be used to fuel Incarnum feats of abilities.

[Norin]

Any examples on how or what would counter or negate Embrace of Shadow?

[Chronos]

Quoth danzibr:

Can get some sneakery from 1 level of Totemist (shape Kruthik Claws, +4 competence to Hide and Move Silently).
That's why I said "no useful bonus", because Kruthik Claws is useless. If you're making any attempt at all at stealth, then you already have, at the very least, a cloak and boots of elvenkind, which means that Kruthik Claws gives you nothing at all.


Quoth Norin:

Any examples on how or what would counter or negate Embrace of Shadow?
Sure, that's easy. Either a Spot check that beats the Umbral Disciple's Hide check, or some sense that doesn't use Spot checks.

[danzibr]

That's why I said "no useful bonus", because Kruthik Claws is useless. If you're making any attempt at all at stealth, then you already have, at the very least, a cloak and boots of elvenkind, which means that Kruthik Claws gives you nothing at all.
Still worth mentioning. VoP rogue for some reason? Better things to do with your cloak and boot slots and not using MIC item combination rules?

[Norin]

Sure, that's easy. Either a Spot check that beats the Umbral Disciple's Hide check, or some sense that doesn't use Spot checks.

No, that counters the hide check.
I mean, you can counter or negate Shadowdancer and dark template HiPS by making sure there is no shadows within range or daylight effects or something.

There is no such way to negate embrace of shadow as far as i can tell.
Or is there some essentia blocking effect i should keep an eye out for that will take away my Embrace?

[OldTrees1]

No, that counters the hide check.
I mean, you can counter or negate Shadowdancer and dark template HiPS by making sure there is no shadows within range or daylight effects or something.

There is no such way to negate embrace of shadow as far as i can tell.
Or is there some essentia blocking effect i should keep an eye out for that will take away my Embrace?

The Hide in Plain Sight ability Umbral Disciple only removes the observation clause. If the blur effect of the ability does not create concealment then you can't hide. I believe there are abilities out there that negate blur-like concealment (True Seeing vs the spell Blur for example) rather than just ignore it (Improved Precise Shot)

It is still superior to Shadowdancer (which can be shutdown with more mundane means).

[Chronos]

True Seeing overcomes the Blur spell, but won't overcome Embrace of Shadow. The difference is that Blur is an illusion, but Embrace of Shadow isn't.


Quoth danzibr:

Better things to do with your cloak and boot slots and not using MIC item combination rules?
In that case, you use the Shadow and Silent Moves armor properties from the DMG, which are a flat cost to add to armor (so, effectively as good as slotless), and which can give bonuses up to +15, higher than any but a nigh-epic totemist can get.

[Particle_Man]

Just having a soulmeld in a slot doesn't prevent you having a magic item there - it is only if the soulmeld is bound to the slot that you have issues.

Also, there is a feat in MoI that lets you both have a bound soulmeld and have a magic item in the slot.

[Chronos]

Just having a soulmeld in a slot doesn't prevent you having a magic item there - it is only if the soulmeld is bound to the slot that you have issues.
Yes, but that's not the issue here. The issue is that Kruthik Claws, like most totemist soulmelds, gives a competence bonus, which is the same bonus type as granted (in larger amounts) by common magic items, and thus does not stack with them.

[PraxisVetli]

It says "as the ranger"
can Umbral Disciple, using Embrace of Shadows, only hide in trees?
Shouldn't it be as a Shadowdancer.....?

[tyckspoon]

It says "as the ranger"
can Umbral Disciple, using Embrace of Shadows, only hide in trees?
Shouldn't it be as a Shadowdancer.....?

No. The Ranger's Hide In Plain Sight just removes the requirement that you not be observed; you still have to find some means of concealment. The separate Camouflage feature the Ranger has fills that requirement for the Ranger; for the Umbral Disciple, the Embrace of Shadow ability itself provides concealment, so everything is cool. You have Concealment + allowed to be observed because of Hide In Plain Sight, so you can Hide.

[OldTrees1]

It says "as the ranger"
can Umbral Disciple, using Embrace of Shadows, only hide in trees?
Shouldn't it be as a Shadowdancer.....?


Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Good catch. Umbral Disciple cannot hide while observed unless in natural terrain.

[PraxisVetli]

No. The Ranger's Hide In Plain Sight just removes the requirement that you not be observed; you still have to find some means of concealment. The separate Camouflage feature the Ranger has fills that requirement for the Ranger; for the Umbral Disciple, the Embrace of Shadow ability itself provides concealment, so everything is cool. You have Concealment + allowed to be observed because of Hide In Plain Sight, so you can Hide.


Good catch. Umbral Disciple cannot hide while observed unless in natural terrain.

So.
Probable frequent houserule?
"As the Ranger Shadowdancer?

[Urpriest]

So.
Probable frequent houserule?
"As the Ranger Shadowdancer?

I don't think it should be as the Shadowdancer, though. It should depend on the concealment granted by the ability. So just write it out like a normal instance of HiPS.

[PraxisVetli]

I don't think it should be as the Shadowdancer, though. It should depend on the concealment granted by the ability. So just write it out like a normal instance of HiPS.

It just seemed akin to Shadowdancer or Assassin.
So it would be
" Umbral Disciple may hide whenever granted concealment by this effect"?
edit:
concealment always grants hide, so I suppose the question is, how long does it last?
upon reaching the level, does the player then invest the essentia and thats it, the points are gone and Embrace of Shadows' always active?
Or is it a daily thing (never played or seen played an Incarnum character)

[Norin]

Well the ability description refers to the Ranger ability, but does not say it's the same:


If the miss chance granted by this ability is 20% or higher, you also gain the ability to hide in plain sight—that is, you can use the Hide skill even while being observed. See the ranger class feature, page 48 of the Player's Handbook. Embrace of shadow is usable at will.

It specifies that you are able to use the hide skill even when being observed, because of the 20% or more concealment.

It's mostly redundant or just confusing that they talk about Ranger HiPS in the same place because the Ranger ability never says anything about concealment at all:


Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)

While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Badly written is my explanation, and i will not accept that Embrace of Shadow works like Ranger HiPS. :smallwink:


It just seemed akin to Shadowdancer or Assassin.
So it would be
" Umbral Disciple may hide whenever granted concealment by this effect"?
edit:
concealment always grants hide, so I suppose the question is, how long does it last?
upon reaching the level, does the player then invest the essentia and thats it, the points are gone and Embrace of Shadows' always active?
Or is it a daily thing (never played or seen played an Incarnum character)

It lasts as long as you choose to invest 2 (or more) essentia to get 20% (or motre) concealment. Essentia is just invested in something you can invest it in and it stays invested until you choose to invest it elsewhere or just not invest... as far as I can tell.

It's like a pool of power that you place where you want it to be.

[PraxisVetli]

So for someone who does the aforementioned 3 lvl dip, its presumably there forever?

[tyckspoon]

So for someone who does the aforementioned 3 lvl dip, its presumably there forever?

There are some effects that can forcibly de-invest Essentia, but they're pretty rare and your DM has to specifically want to use Incarnum-related enemies to put them in play. So practically speaking, yes - if you have Embrace of Shadow, you probably want it running at max capacity all the time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I did mention this in my sigg'd incarnum guide.

Umbral Disciple 3 is a fantastic dip for any precision-based damage or stealth-based skillmonkey build. You still get a +1d6 Sneak Attack out of the three levels, so you're only 'down' by 1d6 SA if you had just gone straight Rogue, so the dip isn't as painful as you might think.

It's also a 6+Int Mod skill points class, with a good selection of skills, so your skills won't suffer for the dip either.

Sept Knowledge can be cheesed if more than one character in a party takes this PrC (since they qualify each other for conversing with a member of their sept), and there's nothing stopping them from forming their own sept and having the sept citadel located at whatever headquarters the party is using for the full +5. It is an untyped bonus, and might see use in conjunction with Knowledge Devotion, but is otherwise not particularly powerful, even when cheesed.

If you can get your Essentia cap up to 5, you can also run around with a flat always-on 50% miss chance. Doing so, however, isn't quite as easy as you might think, since it is a class ability and not a feat or a soulmeld.

[Norin]

So for someone who does the aforementioned 3 lvl dip, its presumably there forever?

Yep.

Well to get into UD you need 1 essentia as a prereq.
After 3 levels of UD you gain 2 more.

This means if you only invest in Embrace of Shadow you will have "constant" 30% miss chance and "always on" HiPS possibility with minimal investment it seems.

Did i mention I love it? Well, I do. It's sexy.

[Draz74]

I do love me some Umbral Disciple 3 in a skillful build. It might get my vote as the best skillmonkey PrC if Unseen Seer wasn't around.


Well the ability description refers to the Ranger ability, but does not say it's the same:

It specifies that you are able to use the hide skill even when being observed, because of the 20% or more concealment.

Badly written is my explanation, and i will not accept that Embrace of Shadow works like Ranger HiPS. :smallwink:
Good catch. A strict parsing of the way it's written is that the Ranger reference actually doesn't change anything. The ability itself states what it does: "can hide while being observed." Full stop. :smallcool:


I did mention this in my sigg'd incarnum guide.

Umbral Disciple 3 is a fantastic dip for any precision-based damage or stealth-based skillmonkey build. You still get a +1d6 Sneak Attack out of the three levels, so you're only 'down' by 1d6 SA if you had just gone straight Rogue, so the dip isn't as painful as you might think.

It's also a 6+Int Mod skill points class, with a good selection of skills, so your skills won't suffer for the dip either.

Sept Knowledge can be cheesed if more than one character in a party takes this PrC (since they qualify each other for conversing with a member of their sept), and there's nothing stopping them from forming their own sept and having the sept citadel located at whatever headquarters the party is using for the full +5. It is an untyped bonus, and might see use in conjunction with Knowledge Devotion, but is otherwise not particularly powerful, even when cheesed.

Suddenly I want to make a whole party with Umbral Disciple and Knowledge Devotion ...

[Chronos]

You won't necessarily want to keep it full of essentia all of the time, if you have other uses for essentia. For instance, if you qualified via a one-level dip in Incarnate, you might want to keep Thief Gloves shaped, and swap your essentia into those when you're picking a lock or disarming a trap. Still, those are predictable times, and you're seldom ambushed in the middle of such activity, so it's still pretty much going to be on any time it would matter.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You won't necessarily want to keep it full of essentia all of the time, if you have other uses for essentia. For instance, if you qualified via a one-level dip in Incarnate, you might want to keep Thief Gloves shaped, and swap your essentia into those when you're picking a lock or disarming a trap. Still, those are predictable times, and you're seldom ambushed in the middle of such activity, so it's still pretty much going to be on any time it would matter.

Not to mention you can shift essentia as a Swift action, and there's not a whole lot else such a build would be able to do with a swift action.

As far as binds useful to thief-type characters, Crystal Helm is pretty useful in shoring up your likely weak Will save, plus making your attacks a Force effect to negate problems with Blinking or Incorporeal against opponents. If you are more worried about your weak Will save, an Enigma Helm might also be of interest.

Cerulean Sandals are also good for additional bursts of speed, Airstep Sandals are good for vertical mobility or getting over short gaps you can't jump, and Lucky Dice are just plain useful. If you are worried about Status Conditions, you might wish to consider Pauldrons of Health to become immune to Nauseated and diseases, or Strongheart vest for resistance to stat damage.