Doppelganger Question

[Macabros]

Ok so why the heck do they have a ECL of 8 with 4 hit dice and a 4 LA?
It seems like many races get bloated ECL due to the idea that they are monsters and you're not allowed to play monsters.

Here is what the Doppelganger gets
+2 Strength, +2, Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. < Score
4 racial HD d8
Darkvision (60 ft)
2+Int (7xInt)
+4 to Bluff and Disguise; +10 with Disguise when using shapechangers
+4 Natural Armor
Shapechange, Detect Thoughts, Immunity to Sleep and Charm effects
2 Racial Feats
+4 LA

Is it really worth the LA of 4 plus the HD?

I mean Humans get a free feat too and they are the only core race to get that perk and those are normally for races with HD.

I mean I am not calling it racist but doesn't it seem like they bloat the LA and ECL to make it almost impossible to play.

[Yuki Akuma]

Shapeshifting into any humanoid and Detect Thoughts at will are amazing abilities for a PC. They would destabilize so many games. They are not the sorts of powers you want PCs having before level 8-ish.

[Macabros]

So why not run it like the Raptorans and their flight abilities?

Also an extra feat for nothing is really powerful in 3.5 so humans by that logic should have 3 RHD

[Yuki Akuma]

Humans don't have an extra feat for nothing. They have an extra feat in exchange for having no other racial features (except skill points). Compare them to dwarves, say.

They aren't structured like Raptorans because WotC hadn't had that idea yet when they published the core books. You could easily make a racial class out of them, though.

[Khatoblepas]

Shapeshifting into any humanoid and Detect Thoughts at will are amazing abilities for a PC. They would destabilize so many games. They are not the sorts of powers you want PCs having before level 8-ish.

No, I'm pretty sure they won't - Humanoid Shape is a lesser invocation and Detect Thoughts is a 2nd level spell that can be shielded against with Nondetection. Since it's a Doppleganger's whole Schtick, I wouldn't begrudge them having Change Shape a level earlier than a Dragonfire Adept.

4HD is fine. No LA.

[Piggy Knowles]

If one of my players really wanted to play a doppelganger but didn't want to go changeling for some odd reason, I might consider allowing it at 2 racial HD and +2 LA.

[Macabros]

Well maybe but my point is that Humans are considered THE best for every class because of that bonus to skills and feats.

Ability scores are not actually all that good in the long run, I mean magic items boost them further and better.

Ok so how would you roll their abilities out?

I would have said Detect Thoughts 1/day at 1 HD and increases in number of times per day via how many HD you have.

Same for Shapeshifting.

Well my thought is.. they made the Chameleon only available to Humans or Doppelgangers as if Doppelgangers should be an easily playable class.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well my thought is.. they made the Chameleon only available to Humans or Doppelgangers as if Doppelgangers should be an easily playable class.

It's thematic for Doppelgangers to be able to do it. It's not very good, but eh, any race with racial HD or LA tends to suck. It's not a very well-designed system.

Also I'm partially convinced they only made it open to Doppelgangers so they could say "Oh yeah if you're playing Eberron Changeling should totally qualify too".

[Macabros]

Maybe but still

Also in Races of Destiny they have a Savage style progression where they get Detect Thoughts at will at level 2 but don't get change shape till level 3 and that is for 1/day.

Its still the ECL 8 racial levels.

My point was not that you could not play, I could easily play a Doppelganger off this but the fact is it seems like it is fluffed so to make it harder and less likely to play.

WoTC seems to hate the idea of anyone playing a class they did not intend for us to play. So basically either you're a human, elf, Dwarf, Halfing, Half-X or we buttream you with LA to teach you not to think outside the box.

[Khatoblepas]

WoTC seems to hate the idea of anyone playing a class they did not intend for us to play. So basically either you're a human, elf, Dwarf, Halfing, Half-X or we buttream you with LA to teach you not to think outside the box.

That's pretty much what D&D is all about: Rampant systemic speciesism. it was worse in earlier editions, where it punished you for playing anything but a Human after a few levels.

[Macabros]

Ok here is an idea.

At 1 HD you gain Darkvision, Immunity to Sleep and Charm, Minor Change Shape (1+Cha a day); +4 to Bluff and Disguise. +2 to Mental or Physical Scores
At 2 HD you gain Detect Thought 1/day
3 HD you gain +1 Natural Armor
4 HD you gain +2 to Mental or Physical scores (Opposite of the original choice); Detect thoughts at 3/day
5 HD you gain Change Shape (3+Cha a day)
6 HD you gain +1 Natural Armor and Detect Thought at will
7 HD you gain nothing
8 HD you gain Change Shape at Will

But that those work into a class levels not just a racial levels.

[HalfQuart]

I think Doppelganger should be 0 RHD and +3 LA. And I think they should get Speak Language as a class skill on any class they take (like Changelings).

[Macabros]

I could see it being a ECL 3 no doubt but a 3 LA no HD would be awesome with Buy Off

[HalfQuart]

I could see it being a ECL 3 no doubt but a 3 LA no HD would be awesome with Buy Off
By the time you can buyoff a +3 LA, the Doppelganger abilities aren't that great. And as a baseline, I think Pixie at +4 LA is significantly stronger than Doppelganger.