Problems with Initiative

[Eladrinblade]

Two guys are having a standoff on the street. They are both holding hand crossbows. One is a rogue. They're having a ToB style staredown, then initiative is rolled. The rogue wins and attacks with his hand crossbow, hits, and gets to add his sneak attack since the enemy was flat-footed.

The enemy survives, shoots back, and runs into a building. The rogue follows, chasing the man into an empty room with no exit. The rogue stands in the door, taking a ready action to shoot the man if he does anything. The man waits for the rogue to do something. They both wait like this for several rounds, then the man charges goes to shoot the rogue.

Now, by RAW, the rogue gets his readied attack before the man can attack. I ask: why is initiative not rolled again? How is this situation any different than the standoff in the street earlier?

If active combat ceases for any reason, why isn't initiative rolled again? Simplicity?

[Piggy Knowles]

My best guess? Because taking every short and temporary break in combat as ending one combat session and starting a new one is a great way to slow things down to a crawl.

[Stux]

Basically it is the DM's call whether combat has stopped or not, and that is what will control it. Also, D&D is not designed as a PvP system, so situations like this are unlikely to come about without it being an encounter specifically engineered in this way by the DM.

[AMFV]

Two guys are having a standoff on the street. They are both holding hand crossbows. One is a rogue. They're having a ToB style staredown, then initiative is rolled. The rogue wins and attacks with his hand crossbow, hits, and gets to add his sneak attack since the enemy was flat-footed.

The enemy survives, shoots back, and runs into a building. The rogue follows, chasing the man into an empty room with no exit. The rogue stands in the door, taking a ready action to shoot the man if he does anything. The man waits for the rogue to do something. They both wait like this for several rounds, then the man charges goes to shoot the rogue.

Now, by RAW, the rogue gets his readied attack before the man can attack. I ask: why is initiative not rolled again? How is this situation any different than the standoff in the street earlier?

If active combat ceases for any reason, why isn't initiative rolled again? Simplicity?

Why wouldn't the rogue hide when the man ran into the building? I mean that would be the smart choice.

Encounters are pretty nebulous as is, but the answer is that rolling initiative more often is a huge huge hassle for paperwork and keeping track of things, particularly for the DM who has to keep track of many initiatives and when things are going to happen.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You're assuming that the DM kept everything in combat rounds during the "break", rather than declaring the encounter over when the rogue lost sight of the fleeing enemy and starting a new encounter when the enemy reappears.

Either method is valid, but it's a DM call.

[Tim Proctor]

I would say its a concentration check for the rogue, and a spot check for the man. I assume it isn't quiet and a lot of things could be a distraction, if the rogue gets distracted (thinks the guy moved somewhere else) and the guy spotted it, he'd get a free round action.

Also, I have a habit ot making my party roll for initiative in every encounter even diplomatic ones, so the standoff would have been treated differently. It also keeps them on their toes about what type of encountter is which.

[AmberVael]

Two guys are having a standoff on the street. They are both holding hand crossbows. One is a rogue. They're having a ToB style staredown, then initiative is rolled. The rogue wins and attacks with his hand crossbow, hits, and gets to add his sneak attack since the enemy was flat-footed.

The enemy survives, shoots back, and runs into a building. The rogue follows, chasing the man into an empty room with no exit. The rogue stands in the door, taking a ready action to shoot the man if he does anything. The man waits for the rogue to do something. They both wait like this for several rounds, then the man charges goes to shoot the rogue.

Now, by RAW, the rogue gets his readied attack before the man can attack. I ask: why is initiative not rolled again? How is this situation any different than the standoff in the street earlier?

If active combat ceases for any reason, why isn't initiative rolled again? Simplicity?

The difference shows if you look at it in its turn by turn breakdown and consider what it implies about the situation

In the first instance, where it isn't combat yet and they haven't rolled initiative, they're both in the same situation- they have crossbows and neither is more or less ready to fire than the other.

Once one of them runs away though, he spends his turn moving into the building- he's effectively focused entirely on getting away during his turn. The rogue sees him going in, follows up a little slower and has his crossbow up and ready as he comes into view of his enemy, who is basically in a dead end with his crossbow pointed elsewhere.

The rogue basically has the draw on the enemy in this situation- while the enemy was focusing on running away and getting out of sight, he didn't manage to get out of the rogue's sight... and the rogue took his aim and got ready to attack. The enemy is not ready to attack, and the moment he tries to aim and get ready to attack (that is, him taking an action of any kind, which the rogue is readied against), the rogue gets to shoot at him, because he's already ready.

Now, this is assuming that the rogue came up to the room immediately after his enemy stopped running (that is, the enemy ran on his turn, and the rogue came to the door before the enemy got another turn). If there was a gap of a turn or larger, things get fuzzier- particularly since the enemy could have had his crossbow readied on the door in that time.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

There are actually rules on how to adjudicate delayed initiative in order to evaluate another actor. The two operative rules are Readied Actions and Delayed Actions:


Delay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm#delay)
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You can’t, however, interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action).

Initiative Consequences of Delaying

Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Initiative Consequences of Readying

Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

So, in 3.5, there is nothing saying people can't delay forever. In 3.0, however, the relevant text also includes these clauses:


A character can only voluntarily lower its initiative to –10 minus its initiative bonus. When the initiative count reaches –10 minus a delaying character's initiative bonus, that character must act or forfeit any action that round.

If multiple characters are delaying, the one with the highest initiative bonus (or highest Dexterity, in case of a tie) has the advantage. If two or more delaying characters both want to act on the same initiative count, the one with the highest bonus gets to go first. If two or more delaying characters are trying to go after the other, the one with the highest initiative bonus gets to go last.

I believe this was scrapped because it doesn't clarify the initiative consequences of forfeiting action for the round. However, it provides a useful principle: as long as the DM has not ruled the combat actually ended, and thus new initiative rolls are required, conflicts arising from actors' reaction times ought to be resolved by comparing initiative bonuses, or dexterity scores in case of a tie.

However, I'd personally tweak the Feinting in Combat use of the bluff skill:


Feinting in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

You are, RAW, required to be in melee combat for this to work properly. I see no reason why it couldn't also be used to resolve this kind of standoff, or at least to modify the initiative-based resolution I mentioned above.

[nedz]

Basically it is the DM's call whether combat has stopped or not, and that is what will control it. Also, D&D is not designed as a PvP system, so situations like this are unlikely to come about without it being an encounter specifically engineered in this way by the DM.

this, also it's a DM's call as to if, and when, Combat starts.

By RAW Combat cannot be started or stopped, it's always Rule 0

[prufock]

Now, by RAW, the rogue gets his readied attack before the man can attack. I ask: why is initiative not rolled again? How is this situation any different than the standoff in the street earlier?

If active combat ceases for any reason, why isn't initiative rolled again? Simplicity?

Why would initiative be rolled again in this case? The rogue acted more quickly, and in the last case is ready for the other character. Combat hasn't ended because the threat still exists. Taking a cue from the factotum FAQ, neither has had a minute or two to stop and catch his breath - they are still engaged, even if it is a waiting game to see which will crack first, they're still under pressure. Even if the rogue walked away for 2 rounds, and the other fired from cover, it's the same encounter.

Yes it's partially DM call, because "encounter" isn't all that well defined.

[ericgrau]

To ready the action in the first place the rogue had to beat the guy's initiative at some point, so the result is the same as if he had fired immediately without readying an action. The difference is readying an action offers the option of a peaceful resolution to his foe: like outdrawing an opponent and holding a gun to his head without firing. The one who drew faster already won, and the only reason his foe isn't dead already is out of mercy.

And someone in a staredown is not flat-footed because he was already aware of his opponent and ready to react. He may lose initiative but effectively round 1 has already passed and there is no flat-footedness anymore.