Recent Pathfinder FAQs (Mid Nov)

[grarrrg]

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16334074) to the last one.

I was going to wait until the end of the month for this next one, but they actually covered a few fairly important things this time.

(no "Good", "Bad", or "Other" this time around, mainly cause half of these are pretty polarizing)

Most important one first:
*Half-Orcs and Darkvision (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh#v5748eaic9rby). Your Half-Orc must have Darkvision in order to benefit from the Acute Darkvision Alt-Racial Trait.
:P
Alright, seriously now...

*Claws go on Hands (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk). Talons go on feet. The first part of this ruling makes perfect sense. The next part...not so much.

If you are a quadruped (or have more than four legs), you can have claws on your feet. If you have claws on all of your feet, normally you can't use all of those claw attacks on your turn unless you have a special ability such as pounce or rake.
So in order to use ALL of your Natural attacks on a Full attack, you NEED the Pounce ability? What.

*Alchemists with Tentacle or Extra Arms. No 'extra' attacks EVAR (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rc5)!
No putting Claws on your extra arms and using all four anyway.
The Tentacle is _NOT_ a normal Natural Weapon. It's a hack-job natural attack.
What they FAIL to address, is the possibility to use a 2-hand weapon AND a 1-hand weapon a the same time (or for that matter, two 2-hand weapons).

*Alchemists can actually, potentially make use of Breath of Life (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rbr) now. Alchemists can now draw and use a Breath of Life Extract as a Full Round action. Too bad you must already be right next to the body, which still greatly limits its usefulness.
But it's something.

*Clerics with Subdomains that grant the Planar Binding (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9rce) spell can use them without needing the 'proper' Magic Circle spell.

[Prime32]

you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanicsBanning Rule Zero - that's new.

[Raven777]

you can't "re-skin" the ability's game mechanics

*spits tea*

*monocle*

*jaw drop*

Then again, this one FAQ seems more directed at munchkins players than it is at DMs.

Also, Sean K. Reynolds laughs at his own design team's feeble attempt to nerf Vestigial Arm (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7&page=3?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#104)! LAUGHS, I say!

(In other words, you can invoke your ability to Unarmed Strike with your feet to invoke being able to do your iterative attacks with your new vestigial arms on top of natural claw attacks occupying your regular hands.)

[Lord_Gareth]

....Why, Paizo? Why?

[Keneth]

Everything looks in order, no need for houserules this time around.

[Psyren]

*Claws go on Hands (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9rdk). Talons go on feet. The first part of this ruling makes perfect sense. The next part...not so much.

So in order to use ALL of your Natural attacks on a Full attack, you NEED the Pounce ability? What.

I don't see the issue. If you're not pouncing/raking, you're using those limbs to stand on aren't you? And thus, you wouldn't expect to be able to just swing with them willy-nilly since they're holding your weight. It makes perfect sense to me.



What they FAIL to address, is the possibility to use a 2-hand weapon AND a 1-hand weapon a the same time (or for that matter, two 2-hand weapons).

They addressed it quite clearly actually; if the tentacle/arm can't give you any additional attacks, then obviously you can't stick a weapon in it and 2-hand with your other limbs.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The FAQ, while never perfectly good nor bad, has certainly been heading towards the awful side of the pool lately.

I've stopped hitting FAQ on posts, because I dread the horrible ruling that will likely come down if they actually do address the given issue.

Up until the past few months, the FAQ team actually was doing pretty good, aside from the occasional mess up (and they corrected some of those after the fact, too).

[Vanitas]

They addressed it quite clearly actually; if the tentacle/arm can't give you any additional attacks, then obviously you can't stick a weapon in it and 2-hand with your other limbs.
Hm, you could still use the tentacle/arm to supplement a normal hand and 2-hand and use a weapon in your off-hand.

Also, aside from the Planar Binding ruling, I think they are all pretty good.

[Lord_Gareth]

Also, aside from the Planar Binding ruling, I think they are all pretty good.

Did you see the bit where they tried to ban refluffing? That's the stupidest crap they've pulled since the Flurry of Blows fiasco.

[Vanitas]

Did you see the bit where they tried to ban refluffing? That's the stupidest crap they've pulled since the Flurry of Blows fiasco.

It's specifically about mechanical aspects, so it's not really refluffing, is it?

[Keneth]

Indeed, it's supposed to prevent players from refluffing attacks in order to gain a mechanical advantage. Refluffing should be just that—fluff.

[3WhiteFox3]

Indeed, it's supposed to prevent players from refluffing attacks in order to gain a mechanical advantage. Refluffing should be just that—fluff.

Agreed,

I think that the distinction between talon and claw is silly and unnecessary, but I'm not bothered by it or the 'no re-skin' bit. It's pretty obvious that their talking about the specific situation of claws vs. talons.

What I really dislike about that ruling is that it doesn't make clear whether or not multiple natural attacks can be used on a full attack without pounce/rake or if it's just claws.

[Keneth]

Claws are obviously a specific exception to the rules. This just affirmed what was a logical conclusion to begin with. Can you imagine a quadruped using all four legs to claw at something without pouncing on it and/or raking? You either need two legs to stand on, or not be standing when making the attack. :smallsmile:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Claws are obviously a specific exception to the rules. This just affirmed what was a logical conclusion to begin with. Can you imagine a quadruped using all four legs to claw at something without pouncing on it and/or raking? You either need two legs to stand on, or not be standing when making the attack. :smallsmile:

Or you could like...mix clawed kicks in with your claw hand strikes... Nothing at all requires the attacks to all be done simultaneously. In fact, the ability to choose what foe to target with each attack in a full attack after seeing the results of the previously makes it quite explicit that they're not.

(I don't mind the ruling, just pointing out...)

[Keneth]

Or you could like...mix clawed kicks in with your claw hand strikes...

We're talking explicitly about quadrupeds, and quadrupeds can't really attack with their back feet from the ground; They either need to pounce on you, or grab you and then rake you.

Bipeds could do that, but this ruling prevented you from adding claws to your feet, and there's no ruling preventing bipeds from utilizing both claws on their hands, and talons on their feet.

[georgie_leech]

A quadruped could also kick/claw with front legs and then turn around to kick with the back.

[Keneth]

Clawed creatures aren't horses, they can't claw backwards. :smallbiggrin:

[georgie_leech]

And talons are for gripping, not slashing things to ribbons, doesn't stop them from doing damage and not grappling. :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

Is there even an armless quadruped with four listed claw attacks in the first place? The whole issue is kind of moot if there isn't.

[Vanitas]

Is there even an armless quadruped with four listed claw attacks in the first place? The whole issue is kind of moot if there isn't.

It's for eidolons.

[grarrrg]

It's for eidolons.

Eidolons can only put the Claws evolution on their Feet one time.
They can also put Hooves on Feet (again, only once).

There's nothing in Eidolon/Evolution descriptions saying that they cannot use all four "feet" attacks. So the FAQ "fixes" this, apparently.

[Keneth]

And talons are for gripping, not slashing things to ribbons, doesn't stop them from doing damage and not grappling. :smalltongue:

You're kidding, right? Talons slash just fine, and I have the scratches to prove it. Unfortunately, the grabbing part is omitted far too often though.

[georgie_leech]

You're kidding, right? Talons slash just fine, and I have the scratches to prove it. Unfortunately, the grabbing part is omitted far too often though.

The point being that talons aren't generally used for scratching things, they're for stabbing and holding. Apologies if I implied they weren't sharp. :smallredface:

[Scow2]

Agreed,

I think that the distinction between talon and claw is silly and unnecessary, but I'm not bothered by it or the 'no re-skin' bit. It's pretty obvious that their talking about the specific situation of claws vs. talons.

What I really dislike about that ruling is that it doesn't make clear whether or not multiple natural attacks can be used on a full attack without pounce/rake or if it's just claws.Only claws on the back feet. A tiger has four sets of claws, but only gets two claw attacks (Those on its front feet) that it can use whenever, and a single rake (representing both hind-leg claws), which requires Pounce.

[CTrees]

Is there even an armless quadruped with four listed claw attacks in the first place? The whole issue is kind of moot if there isn't.

The Intellect Devourer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/intellect-devourer)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33557.jpg

Interestingly it does not have special abilities like pounce or rake, so I'm not entirely sure what this FAQ ruling means for its listed attack routine...

[Scow2]

The Intellect Devourer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/intellect-devourer)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33557.jpg

Interestingly it does not have special abilities like pounce or rake, so I'm not entirely sure what this FAQ ruling means for its listed attack routine...I'm going to assume it means the Intellect Devourer is a special exception to the FAQ ruling.

[olentu]

*spits tea*

*monocle*

*jaw drop*

Then again, this one FAQ seems more directed at munchkins players than it is at DMs.

Also, Sean K. Reynolds laughs at his own design team's feeble attempt to nerf Vestigial Arm (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mer7&page=3?Alchemist-Vestigial-Arm-discovery-question#104)! LAUGHS, I say!

(In other words, you can invoke your ability to Unarmed Strike with your feet to invoke being able to do your iterative attacks with your new vestigial arms on top of natural claw attacks occupying your regular hands.)

Huh, apparently headbutts and the like are now ruled as impossible.

[Psyren]

Did you see the bit where they tried to ban refluffing? That's the stupidest crap they've pulled since the Flurry of Blows fiasco.

They basically said "you can't refluff to gain mechanical advantage." There's nothing wrong with that.

Part of the point of FAQs is to empower DMs who might otherwise be bent over by their players. Obviously a trusted/strong-willed DM doesn't need a FAQ to tell him that; FAQs aren't aimed at those people.

[Keneth]

Interestingly it does not have special abilities like pounce or rake, so I'm not entirely sure what this FAQ ruling means for its listed attack routine...

Most likely nothing. The FAQ doesn't exclude the possibility of being able to attack with all four claws, it just says it's normally not something a creature can do.

I'm not really sure how an intellect devourer manages to pull that off. Since it's small, it probably jumps in the air to strike at someone, even though it doesn't have pounce. But it's an aberration, so it's best not to overthink it.

[Raven777]

Huh, apparently headbutts and the like are now ruled as impossible.

Please elaborate?

[SimonMoon6]

Please elaborate?


First of all, unarmed strike can't be *any* body part you want. It's undefined for non-monks, but the monk class specifically calls out "a monk's [unarmed] attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet," so it's reasonable that non-monks have to follow a similar restriction (otherwise the non-monk has more versatile unarmed strike options, which is silly).

Head is not one of the listed body parts.

[Keneth]

And that's a good thing. A monk making 7 headbutts per round would look ridiculous.

[Craft (Cheese)]

And that's a good thing. A monk making 7 headbutts per round would look ridiculous.

...

*suddenly gets the idea to make an Awakened Dire Tortoise Monk...*

[StreamOfTheSky]

And that's a good thing. A monk making 7 headbutts per round would look ridiculous.

No, it's a stupid thing.

You don't get to make a "natural attack" with every possible body that can make an unarmed strike. It's all the same weapon, and what part of your body you use is largely fluff / a means of fulfilling the fact that you don't need a hand available to make an unarmed strike. The list in monk's description is clearly an inclusive list, not exclusive, or if it is exclusive, then the writer has no idea at all about how martial arts work if he thinks those are the only valid options.

The point isn't that a monk can make a full attack consisting of
- 2 Punches
- 2 Elbows
- 1 headbutt
- 2 kicks
- 2 knees
- 2 forearm strikes / "clotheslines"

...etc.... And get a ton of attacks per round. It's that he gets his iterative / flurry attacks and can make them with any of the above choices (or others) as he chooses.

I admit, PF making flurry of blows work as two-weapon fighting muddies the point quite a bit, I wish they hadn't done that...for a lot of reasons.

[grarrrg]

...

*suddenly gets the idea to make an Awakened Dire Tortoise Monk...*

Needs more Ninja.
Also, cannot be more than 19 years old.
Must be trained by an Awakened Rat.

[Eldonauran]

Needs more Ninja.
Also, cannot be more than 19 years old.
Must be trained by an Awakened Rat.

Also, needs to be named after a Renaissance era artist or inventor.

:smallbiggrin:

Ninja 2 / Monk ? Just to get Ki pool based off of Wis with all the monk/ninja goodness attached. Turtles don't wear armor, ha!

[grarrrg]

Also, needs to be named after a Renaissance era artist or inventor.

:smallbiggrin:

Ninja 2 / Monk ? Just to get Ki pool based off of Wis with all the monk/ninja goodness attached. Turtles don't wear armor, ha!

Well, the race would have Natural Armor, so it works out.

[Coidzor]

Claws are obviously a specific exception to the rules. This just affirmed what was a logical conclusion to begin with. Can you imagine a quadruped using all four legs to claw at something without pouncing on it and/or raking? You either need two legs to stand on, or not be standing when making the attack. :smallsmile:

The only problem I see is that rake seems to be a function of having those extra claws, but it doesn't seem to be the case that gaining those extra claws provides a path to gaining the rake ability or conferring it as part of the altered nature, meaning those two claws aren't usable at all without further expenditure.

Seems like gaining those claw attacks should translate into gaining rake attacks instead, only usable on a full attack or pounce or whathaveyou.


And that's a good thing. A monk making 7 headbutts per round would look ridiculous.

Hey, if you're a hydra but you'd do better damage headbutting instead of biting... Works conceptually at least.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Needs more Ninja.
Also, cannot be more than 19 years old.
Must be trained by an Awakened Rat.

I was thinking more along the lines of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFIE6s4rSrI), actually...

No really, that tortoise easily made 9 headbutt attacks against that bin within 1 round, and it doesn't even have any monk training!

[Coidzor]

I was thinking more along the lines of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFIE6s4rSrI), actually...


Grond! Grond! Grond! (http://youtu.be/IX-ybJUz-rk?t=1m58s)

[grarrrg]

And that's a good thing. A monk making 7 headbutts per round would look ridiculous.


I was thinking more along the lines of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFIE6s4rSrI), actually...

I...I was...I was going to point out something, but then noticed something else, and...erm...well....

Go watch the tape, and count. You'll figure it out.

Turtle easily gets 8 or 9 headbutts per round! That's better than a typical level 20 Monk!

[Craft (Cheese)]

A level 20 monk is outmatched by a housepet. This is news to anyone?

[Keneth]

The list in monk's description is clearly an inclusive list, not exclusive, or if it is exclusive, then the writer has no idea at all about how martial arts work if he thinks those are the only valid options.

The "8 limbs" is pretty standard in martial arts. Obviously you could further break it down into forearms, shins, etc., but that's largely irrelevant from a general standpoint.

I was more or less just mocking the fact that headbutts should be used as part of any attack routine. Especially a monk's, seeing as they can attack with only one type of attack during the entire flurry. It's stupid, unless you're intentionally trying to give your character brain damage.


Seems like gaining those claw attacks should translate into gaining rake attacks instead, only usable on a full attack or pounce or whathaveyou.

I agree, but since that doesn't work, it's better that hind claws give no mechanical advantage. In my opinion, of course. I already give rake attacks for claws on hind legs in my games, because it made sense the first time I encountered this "problem".

[grarrrg]

A level 20 monk is outmatched by a housepet. This is news to anyone?

A level 20 monk is outmatched by a housepet that is not a cat.

[Coidzor]

A level 20 monk is outmatched by a housepet that is not a cat.

I mean, we all knew housecats were OP, but box turtles?


I agree, but since that doesn't work, it's better that hind claws give no mechanical advantage. In my opinion, of course. I already give rake attacks for claws on hind legs in my games, because it made sense the first time I encountered this "problem".

I don't think I'm quite following you here, sorry. I'm not really seeing a way to read this without your statements seeming to be at odds with one another. :smallconfused:

And as for it working, it seems like it would work really well if they'd stop, think about it for a moment, and then make that the rule instead of the awkward wording they used. Seems more workable to just turn them into rake attacks than to make them into... pseudo-rakes like they did.

[Psyren]

The list in monk's description is clearly an inclusive list, not exclusive, or if it is exclusive, then the writer has no idea at all about how martial arts work if he thinks those are the only valid options.

He doesn't have to; it's a game, and at some point the model does break down and stops perfectly keeping up with reality. You could easily say they know nothing about martial arts because a longsword or greatsword can't do bludgeoning damage with the pommel/hilt, despite that being a real-world attack someone could make. Leaving out that option was a conscious decision, just like limiting the body parts that can make attacks.



I admit, PF making flurry of blows work as two-weapon fighting muddies the point quite a bit, I wish they hadn't done that...for a lot of reasons.

I for one love that change. It's easy on the DM (one less set of attack math to remember), it means you don't have to worry so much about balancing flurry-able weapons, there's no reason for monks to pick up the TWF line or focus on prereqs like thier Dex etc.

And remember that, unlike TWF, the flurrying monk gets full Str bonus on all the attacks, not just the main-hand ones.