Vow of Poverty - Can it be good?

[Gwazi Magnum]

The feat in almost all cases does suck.
This is well known, please do not post about how much is sucks, that asking about it is pointless etc.

I am merely trying to see if there any cases in character builds where it can be good. If not, where is it the least damaging?

My Idea?: Kobold Druid.

Just ramp up the Wisdom and rock it in wild shape.
You can get the Kobold wings easily with a feat if flying is an issue.

[Yuki Akuma]

Better idea: take Exalted Companion instead of Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty.

Get your animal companion to take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, instead.

[eggynack]

Druid is the classic VoP friendly class, especially in a low magic game. They can natively do a lot of the things you'd expect from items, and even their burly fighting style is generally weaponless. I don't know why kobold would be the best race for it though. Just, y'know, go with a standard druid race. It's also worth tossing VoP onto the animal companion, after getting exalted companion of course. I've heard good things about MoI classes as well.

[Harrow]

I can't think of any instance where WBL would be less useful than the abilities granted by this feat. As in, I think WBL would actually be able to pay for all the things it does and then some at some levels. If it gave like 1.5XWBL in preset abilities then maybe it could ever be useful, but when money can do literally the same thing and more it has no use.

The only instance where Vow of Poverty can be good is its intended use : When you have an adventurer that was already doing an informal Vow of poverty and donating his share of treasure to charity VoP really helps bring them up to a useable level.

...Or if you want to be really cheesy give it to an exalted companion, improved familiar, paladin special mount, that kind of thing. Then it's pretty rockin'.

[Karnith]

The Incarnum classes (or, at least, the ones that matter) are not unduly weakened by VoP. Psion is another good choice.

[...] I think WBL would actually be able to pay for all the things it does and then some at some levels.
There was a thread about that, actually. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289597) VoP comes out ahead at first level, and later is occasionally above WBL because magic item equivalents are much more expensive than they should be. At most levels VoP is roughly on-par with WBL, albeit WBL spent in a suboptimal manner.

[Epsilon Rose]

Maybe on a true dragon that's taken either Druid levels or MoI levels? It might also be marginally better on a gestalt character where you can have multiple classes filling wholes.

So, true dragon Druid//Cleric or Druid//Incarnate anyone?

[mabriss lethe]

There are some corner cases where VoP nets you some unexpected benefits, but it's not exactly worth it.

Example: The enhancement bonus is to all attack and damage rolls. If your primary attack isn't from a source that can be readily enhanced, that can be nice. Warlock's EB, DFA's Breath weapon, Pyro's Fire lash. etc.

It's a neat side benefit, but balanced against all you lose, it really isn't worth it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Maybe on a true dragon

Wait, wait, hold up.

What sort of True Dragon would willingly forego material wealth?

[eggynack]

Maybe on a true dragon that's taken either Druid levels or MoI levels? It might also be marginally better on a gestalt character where you can have multiple classes filling wholes.

So, true dragon Druid//Cleric or Druid//Incarnate anyone?
I'm seriously not getting this dragon/draconic/kobold druid thing. Is it for flight or something? Druids have approximately infinite flight, all the time, forever. They don't need more flight. What druid in their right mind would pick up a flight item in the first place? It just doesn't make much sense.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's solid on druids and wildshape rangers, especially if you can't buy wilding clasps. It's OK on the totemist and incarnate. Any T1/T2 class that doesn't actually need a spellbook can survive with it. Otherwise, you're probably a liability.

[Lorin]

I guess he is thinking about dragonwrought kobold and all the wonderfull abuse from age categories this buddy can get.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So, are you guys suggesting giving Vow of Poverty to an animal companion instead? And then finding a way to get the bonuses back to the Character?

That would be amazing if it worked...
Though in that regard I have a few questions

1. What templates for the animal companion would do this? (I don't see the Exalted Companion having a feat sharing option)

2. Would all of Vow of Poverty's bonuses come through or just certain things from it?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I guess he is thinking about dragonwrought kobold and all the wonderfull abuse from age categories this buddy can get.

Bingo, that's exactly it.

[eggynack]

I guess he is thinking about dragonwrought kobold and all the wonderfull abuse from age categories this buddy can get.
What bonuses are we talking about here in particular? I mean, I'm sure there are some, but is there anything that a VoP druid really needs out of it?

So, are you guys suggesting giving Vow of Poverty to an animal companion instead? And then finding a way to get the bonuses back to the Character?

That would be amazing if it worked...
Though in that regard I have a few questions

1. What templates for the animal companion would do this? (I don't see the Exalted Companion having a feat sharing option)

2. Would all of Vow of Poverty's bonuses come through or just certain things from it?
I was just suggesting giving the animal companion vow of poverty. Y'know, just so that the animal companion will be more powerful. I don't think there's a feat sucking option, like what psions have.

[Yuki Akuma]

So, are you guys suggesting giving Vow of Poverty to an animal companion instead? And then finding a way to get the bonuses back to the Character?

No. We're suggesting making your animal companion ludicrously awesome, then using all your wealth to buy items for yourself without having to share.

[Epsilon Rose]

Wait, wait, hold up.

What sort of True Dragon would willingly forego material wealth?

I've always preferred to see dragons as accumulating tons of golf as more an outcome of age and power than actual greed.

They live for centuries and attract adventures who have a tendency to die, while laden with gold and magical gear, in their lair. Most dragons either don't care or find it to make a nice bed, so they leave it where it is.

Conversely, if they cared about gold for its value, you'd see them using it a lot more often. They'd actually buy and build things, because all the gold in the world is valueless if it just sits in an inaccessible hoard for the rest of eternity.

[Emperor Tippy]

Psion, Druid, and the Magic of Incarnum are pretty much generally the only classes that can really make VoP a net positive.

Psion is pretty much the best choice for it, especially after you shape and bind soulmelds to all of your chakra's.

[Yuki Akuma]

I've always preferred to see dragons as accumulating tons of golf

Best typo.

[Gwazi Magnum]

What bonuses are we talking about here in particular? I mean, I'm sure there are some, but is there anything that a VoP druid really needs out of it?

I was just suggesting giving the animal companion vow of poverty. Y'know, just so that the animal companion will be more powerful. I don't think there's a feat sucking option, like what psions have.

In the long term the Kobold gives little to the Druid.
But if you don't want to wait till end game for age bonuses then it's great.

Plus even once you hit the Druid level for +3 WIS, INT and CHA it's unlikely the DM will let you pause the campaign until the character hits old age.

As for animal companion. I see the use in it alright.
And I'll give points here for finding a good use for Vow of Poverty.

But I'm also still leaving the question open for other ways it might be good, mainly for characters. But granted for a Druid, an animal companion buff is pretty big.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I've always preferred to see dragons as accumulating tons of golf as more an outcome of age and power than actual greed.

They live for centuries and attract adventures who have a tendency to die, while laden with gold and magical gear, in their lair. Most dragons either don't care or find it to make a nice bed, so they leave it where it is.

Conversely, if they cared about gold for its value, you'd see them using it a lot more often. They'd actually buy and build things, because all the gold in the world is valueless if it just sits in an inaccessible hoard for the rest of eternity.

First, best typo ever. :P

I still find Vow of Poverty conflicting there though.
Because with the Vow you're expected to donate/give away the gold. Not sit on it.


Psion, Druid, and the Magic of Incarnum are pretty much generally the only classes that can really make VoP a net positive.

Psion is pretty much the best choice for it, especially after you shape and bind soulmelds to all of your chakra's.

Why Psions and Chakra's specifically?

[mabriss lethe]

Psions have a very low equipment dependence and a soulmeld bound to a chakra takes up a magic item slot for extra power.

[eggynack]

In the long term the Kobold gives little to the Druid.
But if you don't want to wait till end game for age bonuses then it's great.

Plus even once you hit the Druid level for +3 WIS, INT and CHA it's unlikely the DM will let you pause the campaign until the character hits old age.
So, just standard dragonwrought stuff, instead of something VoP specific. It just feels like it's giving the druid something he already has, instead of filling a hole that's left empty by the lack of items. Like, if kobold was a good druid race before, then it's equal or lesser here, and if it wasn't, then it's not now. I'd just stick with a more standard race. Maybe anthro bat if I'm after stat bonuses, or shifter if I want to make up for the lack of the item based rapid spell options for summoning.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Psions have a very low equipment dependence and a soulmeld bound to a chakra takes up a magic item slot for extra power.

Basically cost free equipment?
Nice.

Is there any ways to get this without Psions or with minimal Psion investment?

[St Fan]

Vow of Poverty, like many feats, can be quite good if you carefully select your build.

Particularly, Wildshape Ranger, with added Prestige classes Master of Many Forms, Warshaper and maybe Fist of the Forest too, can reach a quite good level of power and adaptability.

Most of the disadvantages of those classes are negated or rendered moot by the Vow of Poverty, and the class features converge very well.

Since you'll spent a lot of time in an alternate form, not depending at all on magic items is great. The enhancement bonus to stats stay active while in another form, unlike with belts, bracers, etc.. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage too, and it applies to every physical attacks.

Plus some bonus exalted feats can improves nicely a few ranger powers. For example, if your Wisdom is high, Exalted Strike makes it moot that you wildshape in a small form with low strength and no Weapon finesse.

With just one level of Fist of the Forest, you also add your constitution score to the AC, and some big monsters have quite high score. Makes it the priority of your enhancement bonus, and at high level you can have a +8 bonus, with all the improved hit points in your true form.

[Gwazi Magnum]

So, just standard dragonwrought stuff, instead of something VoP specific. It just feels like it's giving the druid something he already has, instead of filling a hole that's left empty by the lack of items. Like, if kobold was a good druid race before, then it's equal or lesser here, and if it wasn't, then it's not now. I'd just stick with a more standard race. Maybe anthro bat if I'm after stat bonuses, or shifter if I want to make up for the lack of the item based rapid spell options for summoning.

I forgot to mention that with one feat you can give it dragon wings, so it can now fly.

[Flickerdart]

I've always preferred to see dragons as accumulating tons of golf as more an outcome of age and power than actual greed.

They live for centuries and attract adventures who have a tendency to die, while laden with gold and magical gear, in their lair. Most dragons either don't care or find it to make a nice bed, so they leave it where it is.

Conversely, if they cared about gold for its value, you'd see them using it a lot more often. They'd actually buy and build things, because all the gold in the world is valueless if it just sits in an inaccessible hoard for the rest of eternity.
Dragons, even Good dragons, are basically the physical embodiment of greed. You might not think that gold is doing anything in a pile on the floor, but they do. Draconomicon does into this, but even the Monster Manual explains how dragons feel about gold.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why Psions and Chakra's specifically?
Because Psions have no real actual need for equipment in the first place (and if one desires he can cast any spell in the game without needing a focus or material components) and can use Psychic Reformation + the Open Chakra power to get the soul-melds that they want practically permanently bound to all of their chakras before changing their feats back to normal and getting on with life.

As bound soulmelds prevent the use of a magic item in the related slot, they were created and balanced on the expectation of making up for a significant fraction of Wealth By Level.

So the combined end result is a class that doesn't need money in the first place having two features added on that are both balanced on the expectation that they are replacing money for a character.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Vow of Poverty, like many feats, can be quite good if you carefully select your build.

Particularly, Wildshape Ranger, with added Prestige classes Master of Many Forms, Warshaper and maybe Fist of the Forest too, can reach a quite good level of power and adaptability.

Most of the disadvantages of those classes are negated or rendered moot by the Vow of Poverty, and the class features converge very well.

Since you'll spent a lot of time in an alternate form, not depending at all on magic items is great. The enhancement bonus to stats stay active while in another form, unlike with belts, bracers, etc.. The enhancement bonus to attack and damage too, and it applies to every physical attacks.

Plus some bonus exalted feats can improves nicely a few ranger powers. For example, if your Wisdom is high, Exalted Strike makes it moot that you wildshape in a small form with low strength and no Weapon finesse.

With just one level of Fist of the Forest, you also add your constitution score to the AC, and some big monsters have quite high score. Makes it the priority of your enhancement bonus, and at high level you can have a +8 bonus, with all the improved hit points in your true form.

This all seems to be assuming Wild Shape.
But yes I can see this working very well, just a shame you only have so many levels to invest into the Prestige classes.


Because Psions have no real actual need for equipment in the first place (and if one desires he can cast any spell in the game without needing a focus or material components) and can use Psychic Reformation + the Open Chakra power to get the soul-melds that they want practically permanently bound to all of their chakras before changing their feats back to normal and getting on with life.

As bound soulmelds prevent the use of a magic item in the related slot, they were created and balanced on the expectation of making up for a significant fraction of Wealth By Level.

So the combined end result is a class that doesn't need money in the first place having two features added on that are both balanced on the expectation that they are replacing money for a character.

I need to look more into this, this seems awesome. :P

[eggynack]

I forgot to mention that with one feat you can give it dragon wings, so it can now fly.
But you're a druid. You're flying most of the time by 6th level, and basically all of the time by 7th level. Not needing a separate flight mechanic from items is one of the many reasons for druids working out alright with VoP. Also, anthropomorphic bats get better flight, a higher wisdom bonus, and don't take two feats from you. You're also eating a constitution penalty as a kobold, while attaching dragonborn onto anthro bat gets you a constitution bonus at little cost, and picks you up some abilities, practically free of charge.

[Epsilon Rose]

Dragons, even Good dragons, are basically the physical embodiment of greed. You might not think that gold is doing anything in a pile on the floor, but they do. Draconomicon does into this, but even the Monster Manual explains how dragons feel about gold.

Eh. Chromatic dragons are also always evil. There are some bits of fluff that are better ignored when attempting to tell a competent story.

The fact of the matter is, if your greed leads to you endlessly hoarding a currency, you're not greedy. Your stupid.

[Yuki Akuma]

Eh. Chromatic dragons are also always evil. There are some bits of fluff that are better ignored when attempting to tell a competent story.

The fact of the matter is, if your greed leads to you endlessly hoarding a currency, you're not greedy. Your stupid.

Why do you think you know more about money than the magical flying lizards who are on average at least twice as smart as any human could ever hope to be?

They obviously know something you don't. Or have different instincts than you do.

[Incanur]

VoP druids are great, because druids are great, VoP bonuses go well with wild shape, and druids can really benefit from the bonus feats. Exalted Wild Shape gets you access to the blink dog, an amazing defensive/mobility form. Exalted Companion lets you have an animal companion with 3 Int, thus making communication much easier and allowing for complex instructions. (If the companion takes VoP too, it gets even more nuts.) With wilding clasps, gear probably is more powerful at the higher levels, but (a) VoP wins early on, and (b) as a druid you've got power to spare.

[Epsilon Rose]

Why do you think you know more about money than the magical flying lizards who are on average at least twice as smart as any human could ever hope to be?

They obviously know something you don't. Or have different instincts than you do.

We're not really dealing with actual dragons though, we're dealing with certain peoples ideas of what dragons should be and I am quite comfortable with saying I know better, or have thought a specific case though better, than people; especially if they're the writers at WotC.

Money is only valuable because of the value we assign it in transactions. There are corner cases where people collect currency, but we wouldn't call that greedy in the same way most people associate with dragons, because they're collecting it for a reason other than it's monetary value.

You will notice that actually rich people who care about money don't leave their fortunes in banks or behind vault doors. They invest their money and spend portions of it on things.

[Flickerdart]

The fact of the matter is, if your greed leads to you endlessly hoarding a currency, you're not greedy. Your stupid.
Not so. Keeping a commodity out of circulation makes it worth more, because there is more demand, and coins of pure gold are as much a commodity as they are a currency. Dragons understand the value of a strategic reserve.

[danzibr]

There are some corner cases where VoP nets you some unexpected benefits, but it's not exactly worth it.

Example: The enhancement bonus is to all attack and damage rolls. If your primary attack isn't from a source that can be readily enhanced, that can be nice. Warlock's EB, DFA's Breath weapon, Pyro's Fire lash. etc.

It's a neat side benefit, but balanced against all you lose, it really isn't worth it.
Indeed, good on certain Totemists (well, still suboptimal, but not crippling).

[Epsilon Rose]

Not so. Keeping a commodity out of circulation makes it worth more, because there is more demand. Dragons understand the value of a strategic reserve.

Sure, but that's only true if you intend to sell it at some point. The demand for gold also seems to be fairly inelastic in D&D. After all, when a dragon inevitably gets killed and their hoard looted, the value of gold doesn't plummet.

[Incanur]

Note that VoP also can be a solid option for NPCs, who get less gear. When I rain a campaign for evil characters, I threw various VoP types at them and at their stronghold.

Allow me for a moment to go into how ridiculous the blink dog form is at level 8 when you get access to it: 50% miss chance and teleport up 720ft as a free action each round. Used intelligently, this abilities make it super difficult for opponents to hurt you. Assuming it works with a paw, you can cast an extended produce flame whittle foes down at your leisure.

[Flickerdart]

Sure, but that's only true if you intend to sell it at some point.
How do you know that dragons aren't all playing the really long game? They live for thousands of years, a typical adventurer has a lifespan more accurately measured in months. Of course the price of gold will seem static to them.

[Epsilon Rose]

How do you know that dragons aren't all playing the really long game? They live for thousands of years, a typical adventurer has a lifespan more accurately measured in months. Of course the price of gold will seem static to them.

Fair, but even if they're playing a long game, there will be cycles of buying and selling and they'll be a lot shorter than centennial cycles. After all, a large portion of the beings that drive the economy don't actually function on that scale.

On the short(-ish) scale this follows Buy Low, Sell High. On the longer scale, this can be used to spur the economy on, allowing it to reach higher plateaus for it's High/Low Cycle.

[Particle_Man]

So, true dragon Druid//Cleric or Druid//Incarnate anyone?

That would be worth it just to see the look of despair on the evil PC party's faces when they realize that there will be no treasure for defeating this monster. ;)

Anyhow, I see VoP as insurance against stingy DMs that give wayyyy less than WBL to their party, or give random stuff that may or may not be helpful to the party but technically contributes to "treasure" and hence WBL (and that has happened to me more than once).

[nedz]

I've always preferred to see dragons as accumulating tons of golf as more an outcome of age and power than actual greed.

Yes, Dragons like their Plus Fours.

[Flickerdart]

Anyhow, I see VoP as insurance against stingy DMs that give wayyyy less than WBL to their party, or give random stuff that may or may not be helpful to the party but technically contributes to "treasure" and hence WBL (and that has happened to me more than once).

WBL is not simply a meter of how much stuff the DM has handed the party. If you drop fifty Apparatus of Kwalish, and the PCs sell them all to get real gear, guess what, they're under WBL and the system explicitly says you need to catch them up (ideally, without involving any more Apparatuses).

[Jgosse]

Just a thought but what if you spend your wealth on permanent changes , compendiums and manuals that boost abilities. Maybe the tattooed monk. things that you can't give up. then have a "personal realization" give away what ever is not permanently part of or permanently done to your body.and taking the vow.

[Flickerdart]

Just a thought but what if you spend your wealth on permanent changes , compendiums and manuals that boost abilities. Maybe the tattooed monk. things that you can't give up. then have a "personal realization" give away what ever is not permanently part of or permanently done to your body.and taking the vow.
You don't get some benefits (mostly the feats, though I think there were others) retroactively.

[Karnith]

You don't get some benefits (mostly the feats, though I think there were others) retroactively.
Just the feats, actually. Everything else you get no matter when you take the vow.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just a thought but what if you spend your wealth on permanent changes , compendiums and manuals that boost abilities. Maybe the tattooed monk. things that you can't give up. then have a "personal realization" give away what ever is not permanently part of or permanently done to your body.and taking the vow.

For extra special fun you start at level 20 and write all of those things into your backstory as taken before level 1, you being the son/daughter of some super rich individual and benefting from all of that fun stuff.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Extra Question.

Is it possible to chaos shuffle while using Vow of Poverty?
I think think of a way to use chaos shuffle without spending gold or using magic items.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I suppose the obvious answer is "If I was going to have to take it anyway". See for example if I wanted to play a monk character, which means I want to PrC out as fast as possible. In which case one of the best PrCs for it (Least that I've seen and seen played) is the Shintao Monk, which already has a Vow of Poverty built into a Code of Conduct. Long as I'm swearing off wealth I might as well get some bonuses for it for the 4 levels or so I'd want to stick to Shintao Monk.

It's also very setting dependent. I mean a lot of the cases I've seen mentioned for why it sucks "You can't get Flight", for example, are very situational. I mean yeah, I've had campaigns where not having flight has screwed players (Or evened out the playing field if they did have it) but generally the exception. Generally when the players try to do something silly like go Dragon hunting. "Okay, the dragon circles around overhead, chucking spells at you, and breath weaponing the **** out of the one guy who can actually fight at range."

But yeah. Most campaigns I've seen, it won't really cripple you as badly as I see mentioned. But it's still something where I look at it's ability to be "good" in dubious terms. I mean you have to be doing SOMETHING with it. The Shintao Monk thing works because you're already VoPing yourself even if you don't take the feat, you gotta be Lawful Good anyways, might as well take it.

Works well for an Apostle of Peace build of course. Though the viability of that in a game is more or less up to the group of players anyway. So it's a bit of a tricky situation.

Oddly find it works pretty good for a Wilderness Campaign. Just because Wilderness campaigns tend to be mid level (3-6ish) in my experience. And a good VoP based build is pretty hardy in those situations, having immunity to natural conditions, sustenance, etc. Things that unexpectedly lay low adventurers at that level that they don't necessarily think of or have the ability to handle.

[Karnith]

Is it possible to chaos shuffle while using Vow of Poverty?
Yes, that is entirely possible to do. Using the Chaos Shuffle will not violate your Vow. It'll probably annoy your DM, though.

[LordConcrete]

It's great on BBEGs.
"Yes, we've finally defeated the great Dragon of Balrothos."
"I search the cavern for treasure."
"There's none."
"..."

[Gwazi Magnum]

Yes, that is entirely possible to do. Using the Chaos Shuffle will not violate your Vow. It'll probably annoy your DM, though.

How is it though?
Like how would I mechanically justify it to the DM?

[Flickerdart]

It's great on BBEGs.
"Yes, we've finally defeated the great Dragon of Balrothos."
"I search the cavern for treasure."
"There's none."
"..."
Check out Draconomicon sometime. Dragon organs sell for a mint.

[Rubik]

How is it though?
Like how would I mechanically justify it to the DM?"Those feats suck. I wanted better ones, and I had the means to get them."

[Grod_The_Giant]

How is it though?
Like how would I mechanically justify it to the DM?
"I pay someone to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos on me, then to cast Shun the Dark Chaos."

[cakellene]

I like wild monk for vop.

[nedz]

Anyhow, I see VoP as insurance against stingy DMs that give wayyyy less than WBL to their party, or give random stuff that may or may not be helpful to the party but technically contributes to "treasure" and hence WBL (and that has happened to me more than once).WBL is not simply a meter of how much stuff the DM has handed the party. If you drop fifty Apparatus of Kwalish, and the PCs sell them all to get real gear, guess what, they're under WBL and the system explicitly says you need to catch them up (ideally, without involving any more Apparatuses).

Real games exist, and in some of those games DMs make a misguided attempt to balance the game by restricting wealth. VoP is good in this situation, possibly even OP in some games I've experienced.

[Gwazi Magnum]

"I pay someone to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos on me, then to cast Shun the Dark Chaos."

Pay with what? I have Vow of Poverty.

[Rubik]

"I pay someone to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos on me, then to cast Shun the Dark Chaos."This could possibly break the vow, however, if a DM sees it as such. My suggestion would be swapping favors with a friendly wizard.

No, not those kinds of favors.

Maybe.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pay with what? I have Vow of Poverty.
Derp.


"I ask the party to pay someone to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos on me, then to cast Shun the Dark Chaos."
Fixed that for me.

[Chronos]

Vow of Poverty is actually the most powerful feat in the game, or possibly second-most after only Leadership.

No, I'm not trolling. It's just that it's very often misunderstood. The key is that poverty is a prerequisite for the feat, not a consequence of it. If your thought process is "Wow, Vow of Poverty is great, I'm going to give up all my wealth so I can get that!", then you're falling into a trap, because that's not how it's supposed to be used.

The idea behind the feat is that some people want to play a poor character for its own sake, because the character concept they have in mind matches with not owning anything. That's fine, people should be able to play whatever character concepts they want... Except that, in the core rules, giving up all wealth cripples your character so horribly that it becomes impossible to play the game. So the solution is to create a hugely powerful feat, so powerful that it can partly counterbalance that huge handicap, and make a character without wealth borderline playable.

In other words, the proper comparison isn't a character with VoP and no equipment versus a character without VoP but with equipment; the proper comparison is a character with VoP and no equipment versus a character without VoP who still doesn't have equipment.

[eggynack]

Vow of Poverty is actually the most powerful feat in the game, or possibly second-most after only Leadership.

No, I'm not trolling. It's just that it's very often misunderstood. The key is that poverty is a prerequisite for the feat, not a consequence of it. If your thought process is "Wow, Vow of Poverty is great, I'm going to give up all my wealth so I can get that!", then you're falling into a trap, because that's not how it's supposed to be used.

The idea behind the feat is that some people want to play a poor character for its own sake, because the character concept they have in mind matches with not owning anything. That's fine, people should be able to play whatever character concepts they want... Except that, in the core rules, giving up all wealth cripples your character so horribly that it becomes impossible to play the game. So the solution is to create a hugely powerful feat, so powerful that it can partly counterbalance that huge handicap, and make a character without wealth borderline playable.

In other words, the proper comparison isn't a character with VoP and no equipment versus a character without VoP but with equipment; the proper comparison is a character with VoP and no equipment versus a character without VoP who still doesn't have equipment.
Eh, I suppose. It's certainly a way of looking at the feat that puts it in a better light, but I'm just not sure how accurate it is. Like, a monk with VoP is still a monk with VoP, no matter how you got to that point. When you finish constructing your VoP monk, and he's hanging out in the party, he isn't really getting compared to the cashless monk, or the normal monk. He's getting compared to other party members, and being measured on his actual contribution to the party, if he's being measured at all. It doesn't matter if two theoretical alternate versions of a character would have been better or worse, because you ultimately have the character you have.

I think the same error occurs when people think about master of many forms. The wild shape ranger entry point is often perceived as better than druid entry, because the wild shape ranger version has the PrC make you better, while the druid version has the PrC make you weaker. However, the druid entry, in absolute power terms (Or, I guess, relative power terms, but not entry based at least), is probably either equal to ranger entry or somewhat better. One entry makes you feel better than another, and I think that clouds people's reasoning to some extent.

Edit: Also, leadership is better. Just saying. There's probably a few other feats that grant better abilities as well.

[Psyren]

Perhaps the easiest and coolest fix I have seen for VoP is to allow it to grant Incarnum feats.

@Chronos: I agree that the intent is to compare "VoP Character vs. Poor Character" rather than "VoP Character vs. Character with money." The problem there is that the game expects you to have money, that's what the WBL table is for. So that's an unrealistic comparison for the player to have to make.

[JaronK]

Vow of Poverty is amazing, just throw in a one level dip into Apostle of Peace. Now you can keep and use all defensive magic items. Throw in some decent casting and you're good to go, or melee it up with Kensai by enchanting your fists.

JaronK

[danzibr]

Vow of Poverty is actually the most powerful feat in the game, or possibly second-most after only Leadership.

No, I'm not trolling. It's just that it's very often misunderstood. The key is...

[...]
At this point I was totally expecting legacy items.

In other words, the proper comparison isn't a character with VoP and no equipment versus a character without VoP but with equipment; the proper comparison is a character with VoP and no equipment versus a character without VoP who still doesn't have equipment.
But actually, that's quite interesting. VoP does give you *a lot*.

However, as Psyren said, you're expected to have *a lot more*.

And with regards to what JaronK said... just put Defending on your greatsword. Boom, problem solved.

[eggynack]

And with regards to what JaronK said... just put Defending on your greatsword. Boom, problem solved.
Screw that. Every magic item, no matter what, ever, for any reason, can be defined as an item that protects you. No exceptions. You just have to have the willingness to use the broadest possible interpretation. With that in mind, you don't even need defending on your greatsword. The greatsword is already protecting you from those who would do you harm by killing them in the face, and maybe also protecting you from being without a greatsword. I guess the method where you stick AC bonuses on everything you have could work too, but the ultimate semantic attack just fits my style better.

[Ansem]

I can't think of any character concept where Vow of Poverty would benefit the character.
Monk is often referred to as an example for this, but that's only done by people who have very little knowledge of how things work in practise.
Monk is one of the most equipment-dependant classes there are else your monk sucks, period.

Other end, druid.....
Why the hell would you take Vow of Poverty as a Druid?
You're a caster with benefits, Wildshape amulet? Caster buffs? Bloody armour that outmatches VoP greatly?! And yes, druids can wear armour perfectly fine, just make it Wild armour and it will even function when wildshaped....
A dire bear with full masterwork plate armor.... start running.

[danzibr]

Screw that. Every magic item, no matter what, ever, for any reason, can be defined as an item that protects you. No exceptions. You just have to have the willingness to use the broadest possible interpretation. With that in mind, you don't even need defending on your greatsword. The greatsword is already protecting you from those who would do you harm by killing them in the face, and maybe also protecting you from being without a greatsword. I guess the method where you stick AC bonuses on everything you have could work too, but the ultimate semantic attack just fits my style better.
Yes, yes...

[Invader]

I can see it working with a DFA or Warlock build well enough.

[nedz]

I can see it working with a DFA or Warlock build well enough.

Warlocks get tremendous mileage out of UMD with two class features which key off this skill. This means that there is a significant cost for a Warlock to take VoP.

[Emperor Tippy]

I can't think of any character concept where Vow of Poverty would benefit the character.

Exalted Psion. If you are going to be going Exalted Psion in the first place then VoP is actually better than items.

One of the big problems with VoP is that it requires you to be Exalted in the first place. Frankly that is almost as bad for an adventurer as not having magic items (at least unless its an all Exalted party in a game that is specifically being run for an Exalted party).

[Incanur]

Other end, druid.....
Why the hell would you take Vow of Poverty as a Druid?
You're a caster with benefits, Wildshape amulet? Caster buffs? Bloody armour that outmatches VoP greatly?! And yes, druids can wear armour perfectly fine, just make it Wild armour and it will even function when wildshaped....
A dire bear with full masterwork plate armor.... start running.

As usual, this sort of reasoning assumes higher-level play. Wild armor isn't available until many levels in. VoP is pretty neat at level 1, because you wouldn't have any money anyway. The bonus feats are too, and specifically benefit druids. Wild armor has its perks, but eventually you'll want a monk's belt, probably with a wilding clasp. The lack of that item hurts the most at high-level play, but it's still not a big deal. Anyway, at level 8, good luck having gear that gives you as good defense as VoP plus the blink dog form. How much does dimension door once per round as free action cost?

On the roleplaying side, the magic item system doesn't mix with various character concept, but it's particularly weird for many druids. I wish their were a Vow of Simplicity just for druids. The contradictions become overwhelming. Some druids might even protect a grove from logging or mountain from mining only to then travel to a metropolis to convert many pounds of gold into stat bonus via the urban magical economy.

[Chronos]

Eh, it depends on the group, of course, but there are plenty of cases where a campaign can work fine for exalted characters without being designed for them. Good guys have just as much interest in preventing the end of the world as anyone else.

[gorfnab]

A VoP Wizard can be done (requires two flaws to get it at first level).

Easy Bake Wizard

Elf, preferably Gray or Fire

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Spontaneous Divination ACF - Complete Champion - Optional but great at higher levels
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

For a little cheese look into Domain Wizard from UA since it does stack with the Elf Wizard Racial Sub.

Note: Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

Edit: If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level and 6 additional spells known every level after that.

Other feats to consider:
Eschew Materials
Spell Mastery (PHB, prereq for Uncanny Forethought)
Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil)
Nexus Method (Dragon #319)
Greyhawk Method (Dragon #315)
Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage)
Reserve feats like Acidic Splatter (Complete Mage)

[Ansem]

Exalted Psion. If you are going to be going Exalted Psion in the first place then VoP is actually better than items.

One of the big problems with VoP is that it requires you to be Exalted in the first place. Frankly that is almost as bad for an adventurer as not having magic items (at least unless its an all Exalted party in a game that is specifically being run for an Exalted party).

And you would honestly give up on many great items for it?
Torc of Power Preservation and Intelligence+ items alone make VoP obsolete in that concept.

[ArcturusV]

Dunno if you can use +stat items as a basis for why VoP is bad. As over the course a VoPer gets... +8/+6/+4/+2 to four attributes. +8 alone is better than you could do with items. As far as sheer stat buffs/save buffs/armor buffs it works out pretty decently. It's the focus on other stuff that it misses on.

[Grim Portent]

How does VoP fare when you use races and templates that bypass most of its flaws? Like a race with natural weapons and flight, would that help to shore up the vows weaknesses?

[Ansem]

Dunno if you can use +stat items as a basis for why VoP is bad. As over the course a VoPer gets... +8/+6/+4/+2 to four attributes. +8 alone is better than you could do with items. As far as sheer stat buffs/save buffs/armor buffs it works out pretty decently. It's the focus on other stuff that it misses on.

You can get +16 with items to a single stat.....
I'd rather have +16 to my main stat that, +8 on it and +12 on other ones I'd hardly need anyway.
Same reason I'd buy a Headband of intellect+2 and not gauntlets of strength+1, cloak of charisma+1, headband of intellect+1 and dexterity+1 ring instead.

[ArcturusV]

How you figure out the +16? Wait got where the disconnect was, 5 from Levels, 5 from Wish/Tome, 6 from items. Got it. Compared to the VoPer, who gets 5 from levels, 5 from Wish/Tome, 8 from VoP for a +18.

I wasn't counting the Wish/Tome that anyone could have, or the levels. Thus looking at it in terms of +6 Items versus +8 Vow Bonus.

[Ansem]

How you figure out the +16? Wait got where the disconnect was, 5 from Levels, 5 from Wish/Tome, 6 from items. Got it. Compared to the VoPer, who gets 5 from levels, 5 from Wish/Tome, 8 from VoP for a +18.

I wasn't counting the Wish/Tome that anyone could have, or the levels. Thus looking at it in terms of +6 Items versus +8 Vow Bonus.

Want +16 wisdom?
+5 periapt of Wisdom, +5 tome of Wisdom, +6 item of Wisdom.
They stack yes. Wish (if referring to the spell-effect) could even net you more.

[nedz]

Want +16 wisdom?
+5 periapt of Wisdom, +5 tome of Wisdom, +6 item of Wisdom.
They stack yes. Wish (if referring to the spell-effect) could even net you more.

Wishes and Tomes both grant inherent bonuses — these don't stack.

[lord_khaine]

Want +16 wisdom?
+5 periapt of Wisdom, +5 tome of Wisdom, +6 item of Wisdom.
They stack yes. Wish (if referring to the spell-effect) could even net you more.

Firstly, where do you get a +5 periapt of wisdom from? the regular ones are either +4 or +6.

And secondly, it would not stack with that +6 wisdom item unless it was some sort of custom item that did not give an enhancement bonus.

[nedz]

Incandescent blue Ioun stone +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom 8,000 gp

Not available to VoP characters, but quite common otherwise.

[Yuki Akuma]

Incandescent blue Ioun stone +2 enhancement bonus to Wisdom 8,000 gp

Not available to VoP characters, but quite common otherwise.

Wouldn't stack with a Periapt of Wisdom, because those grant an enhancement bonus to Wisdom too.

[Emperor Tippy]

And you would honestly give up on many great items for it?
Torc of Power Preservation and Intelligence+ items alone make VoP obsolete in that concept.

The Torc is only a loss if you use the XPH version (which is technically not really rules legal any more thanks to MIC) and no, Vow of Poverty will end up with your Int higher than what you can do with items pre-epic.

[eggynack]

If there are problems with druids running VoP, and there are, they have absolutely nothing to do with relative stat bumps. The fact that numbers don't really equal actual abilities is why VoP is underpowered in the first place. Losing out on magic items means losing out on stuff like a belt of battle, or a rod of extend spell, or a ring of the beast. Probably all three, and definitely some others. VoP does have things to offer though. It looks like you get four or five reasonable feats: exalted companion, exalted wild shape, nymph's kiss, touch of golden ice, and then everything else adds up to about a feat. You get a bunch of bonuses and benefits that natively work in a wild shape, while you'd be paying a premium to get that from normal items, and you can't even be sure that you'll have access to those methods in all games. You can definitely toss VoP onto your AC free of charge, given that it's conveniently lacking in even items you would provide.

Most importantly, it enhances the druid's ability to fit in or adapt to all situations and games. Druids are naturally great in games with few or no magic markets, and VoP pushes that quality by a bunch. Any minor dependency that the druid once had on the DM giving you some room to maneuver is now gone. A druid's biggest asset is their ability to adapt, and VoP might actually enhance that ability, while items mostly just enhance the druid's normal functioning. I think that a VoP druid is somewhat worse than a normal druid, but a VoP druid is far from unplayable, and it might actually be good.

[Doc_Maynot]

Better idea: take Exalted Companion instead of Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty.

Get your animal companion to take Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, instead.

Wait, wait, wait... Animal Companions get feats?

[Yuki Akuma]

Wait, wait, wait... Animal Companions get feats?

...Yes?

They get HD. Why wouldn't they get feats?

They get skill points, too!

[ArcturusV]

Yes, as they gain Hit Dice from the Animal Companion status, they gain Feats at every 3 HD, just like anything else.

[eggynack]

Just to make this extra bonus clear, "An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice."

[Psyren]

Vow of Poverty is amazing, just throw in a one level dip into Apostle of Peace. Now you can keep and use all defensive magic items. Throw in some decent casting and you're good to go, or melee it up with Kensai by enchanting your fists.

JaronK

Yeah, but Vow of Peace :smallfrown::smallyuk:



One of the big problems with VoP is that it requires you to be Exalted in the first place. Frankly that is almost as bad for an adventurer as not having magic items (at least unless its an all Exalted party in a game that is specifically being run for an Exalted party).

Precisely.


...Yes?

They get HD. Why wouldn't they get feats?

They get skill points, too!

Pathfinder goes so far as to explicitly state this.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anything with an Int score gains a feat at its first HD, at its third HD, and at every 3 HD thereafter. They also gain skill points at every HD.

Throwing Vow of Poverty onto you Psicrystal can be fun as well.

[awa]

one problem with an animal companion taking vow of poverty (well two if you include thrown books) it requires you to be exalted aka good while most animals are neutral.

[Psyren]

one problem with an animal companion taking vow of poverty (well two if you include thrown books) it requires you to be exalted aka good while most animals are neutral.

That's why you take Exalted Companion first - that should satisfy any DM (who is okay with Exalted at all.)

[eggynack]

Pathfinder goes so far as to explicitly state this.
As does 3.5, cause 3.5 is occasionally cool like that.


one problem with an animal companion taking vow of poverty (well two if you include thrown books) it requires you to be exalted aka good while most animals are neutral.
That's why you take exalted companion.

Edit: Damn. Swordsaged by seconds.

[St Fan]

That's why you take Exalted Companion first - that should satisfy any DM (who is okay with Exalted at all.)

I doubt any sane DM will allow a Vow of Poverty for an animal companion, good magical beast or not.

I surely wouldn't.

[St Fan]

This could possibly break the vow, however, if a DM sees it as such. My suggestion would be swapping favors with a friendly wizard.

No, not those kinds of favors.

Maybe.

And why not? I've had that idea of a cute changeling girl who knows a powerful Chaos mage that's more than a bit of a Casanova...

[Luciandevine]

I can't think of any character concept where Vow of Poverty would benefit the character.
Monk is often referred to as an example for this, but that's only done by people who have very little knowledge of how things work in practise.
Monk is one of the most equipment-dependant classes there are else your monk sucks, period.

I really could not disagree more.

When my friends and I first got the BoED, my DM quickly had to ban me from making a VoP monk. A properly made VoP monk that also takes Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence can be nae untouchable.

We also found that adding Touch of Golden Ice to the build added that much more to it. It's true that the save always stays relatively low, but if the enemy has to make that throw several times a round, depending on whether you're using 3.5 rules or pathfinder rules, they will fail it or roll a natural 1 eventually.

One of the few flaws that I actually saw, was that the bonuses capped at level 20, but even that can be fixed. Using the rules for expanding existing 10 level prestige classes to further expand through epic levels, you can expand the benefits of VoP into epic levels, thus keeping the character on par with the rest of the party.

[georgie_leech]

-snip-

If it worked, good for you. You clearly had an experience where the DM was willing to meet you half way in designing challenges your group could face.

What most people are worried about though is that VoP tends to marginalise characters; they just can't contribute in ways the game expects. For instance, what would this Monk do against anything with flight? Being untouchable may be "powerful" in the sense that your character is hard to kill, but generally the success of a character is measured in what they can do, not what they can endure. The Hero is the one who saved the town from attacking dragons, not the one who was untouched as they wreaked destruction around them.

[Chronos]

A properly made VoP monk that also takes Vow of Peace and Vow of Nonviolence can be nae untouchable.
Anything that can take down any character at all can take down such a monk, and meanwhile you also can't do anything yourself.

[Luciandevine]

This is true, but on the same note, what would a particularly powerful fighter, barbarian, paladin, etc... be able to do alone in such a situation.

It is true that the other characters that don't get VoP can purchase items that enable them to fly, but isn't it also possible that the wizard or sorcerer in the party selects the fly spell, which they can then cast on the members of the party?

It's impossible for any 1 character to be able to do absolutely everything that might be required in every scenario. Thus it comes down to the makeup of the party, and how well-prepared they are, let's say the rogue buying a wand of Fly for the purpose stated above.

The name of the thread asked if VoP could be good. So I was simply outlining a character build that I feel makes it good. Everything is naturally campaign and group dependent. What worked for me won't work for everybody or every group.

[Luciandevine]

Anything that can take down any character at all can take down such a monk, and meanwhile you also can't do anything yourself.

What can't the monk do that any normal monk without VoP could? Kill? Again, it's dependent on each campaign. If all your group wants to do is kill, rape, and steal, then no, this build won't work for that party. If however, the group is trying to find more peaceful resolutions to things, they can simply render their foes unconscious, take them prisoner, etc...

[Metahuman1]

So, Here's one off the top of my head. What about a Binder? Would that work Decently?

[Flickerdart]

So, Here's one off the top of my head. What about a Binder? Would that work Decently?
It might be difficult to convince your DM that bargaining with vestiges is something an Exalted character would do.

[Chronos]

What can't the monk do that any normal monk without VoP could? Kill?
Well, that's one thing, but that's not so bad, since there are other ways to inconvenience enemies besides killing them. Except, you can't really do any of those, either. What can he do? Your Touch of Golden Ice and nonlethal damage both depend on being able to hit things-- How are you going to manage that?

[Incanur]

I think that a VoP druid is somewhat worse than a normal druid, but a VoP druid is far from unplayable, and it might actually be good.

It's only worse at the higher levels, if at all. Levels 1-4, it's kind of annoying if you can't put armor on your animal companion (a debatable interpretation). Levels 5-8, it's downright awesome because of the bonus feats and boots that work during wild shape. Levels 9 and on, you start missing out of seriously nice gear, especially with the MIC allowed. But you're still ridiculously powerful, up to level 20. I think a VoP druid could complete at any realistic campaign appropriate for for an exalted character, including extremely high-powered games.

[Luciandevine]

Well, that's one thing, but that's not so bad, since there are other ways to inconvenience enemies besides killing them. Except, you can't really do any of those, either. What can he do? Your Touch of Golden Ice and nonlethal damage both depend on being able to hit things-- How are you going to manage that?

Um, it's called nonlethal damage. Vow of Peace only restricts you from doing real hit point damage to a living creature or targeting a living creature with a death effect. There is nothing stopping you from dealing enough nonlethal damage to a living creature to render them unconscious, at which point you could take them prisoner, drag/carry them to a place where no harm will come to them while they're unconscious while you carry out the rest of your mission, etc.

[ArcturusV]

Well Lucien, it all depends on campaign particulars, like always. Like I think I said earlier, the usual go to reason VoP sucks (No flight), is something that in my practical gaming experience, as opposed to theory crafting, just doesn't come up. Because where do adventurers go? Under the mountain, in the cave, in the sewers, in the underdark, in the dungeon, etc, where Flight really isn't an issue so much, generally coming into play only in "... oh, I can avoid that pressure plate/pit trap like anyone else could have with a pitifully low jump check or a bit of simple planning". Even when I run wilderness campaigns it doesn't come up so much because... well... in the end excepting "Dragon Attack" and other rare scenarios, the action is on the ground. You need to be there to deal with things. Ranged combat is always kind of less than decisive due to low damage on anything but spell slinging. And the spell slingers generally don't want to fly because, well... the low damage of ranged combat is offset by their low HP and complete lack of cover (Compared to groundbound enemies who will be getting cover and firing back from it).

Granted I know there's a case where you reach a certain level and if you choose to leave your fortress of solitude you are permanently flying, invisible, surrounded by recon drones for a half mile around you, buffed to the hilt against any possible ambush, etc. Though I've never really seen it in my games, but I've rarely played at a level where that was really an option.

Granted, there are still drawbacks that apply in practical terms. For example the VoP based Monk (Or other similarly character) being unable to deal with any sort of DR that isn't DR/Magic, or in the case of the monk DR/Lawful as well. Which isn't crippling, but certainly annoying when you face that demon who laughs as your Flurry of 20 damage hits gets cut in half. That happens. I can appreciate that weakness.

I can appreciate a certain lack of utility use as well. Like being unable to own the various little knickknacks that make life a little easier at even low levels. Be it something as simple as a Healer's Kit (Yes, your exalted, good character cannot use simple first aid effectively on people, which always struck me as weird), or being unable to have simple shelter (Like a tent, good luck if you have a sadistic DM who makes environmental based Fort checks until you hit at least third level), at higher levels having something useful like an item of Freedom of Movement (Always useful when enemies start dropping things like Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, or you start running into grapplers like the Krakens), or even something as simple as Comprehend Languages (Which comes up a lot more often than Flight in my experience. Everytime the scout goes out to look, hears someone talking and I go "what languages do you speak?" and they answer something like "...uhhh... common and elvish..." "Okay, then you have no idea what those orcs are talking about, be it plans for high tea or how they are going to rip you asunder".) or some of my favorites like Augury (DM: Is what my teammates planning stupid? Woe? Oh, guys, should probably try a new plan).


Um, it's called nonlethal damage. Vow of Peace only restricts you from doing real hit point damage to a living creature or targeting a living creature with a death effect. There is nothing stopping you from dealing enough nonlethal damage to a living creature to render them unconscious, at which point you could take them prisoner, drag/carry them to a place where no harm will come to them while they're unconscious while you carry out the rest of your mission, etc.

I believe what he was getting at is "Yes, you can knock them out with a punch... now how are you going to GET to that dragon who is just circling overhead and breath weaponing the crap out of everything?" Yes, you got the power to knock him out and ravage him with Golden Ice, but how do you get to him? Or in the case of enemies with things like Blur and Invisibility, etc.

[eggynack]

It's only worse at the higher levels, if at all. Levels 1-4, it's kind of annoying if you can't put armor on your animal companion (a debatable interpretation). Levels 5-8, it's downright awesome because of the bonus feats and boots that work during wild shape. Levels 9 and on, you start missing out of seriously nice gear, especially with the MIC allowed. But you're still ridiculously powerful, up to level 20. I think a VoP druid could complete at any realistic campaign appropriate for for an exalted character, including extremely high-powered games.
I should probably run some level by level druid equipment analysis at some point. I haven't really done that yet. Still, you can pick up a rod of lesser extend spell pretty cheaply, and the same is true of a ring of the beast. A belt of battle runs expensive, but it's ridiculously powerful whenever you have it. A VoP druid can obviously compete any time and all the time in just about any campaign. That's why druids are good for this. They're just so naturally powerful that as long as you pick your arsenal with a decent degree of skill, it doesn't matter what build is backing it up.


Um, it's called nonlethal damage. Vow of Peace only restricts you from doing real hit point damage to a living creature or targeting a living creature with a death effect. There is nothing stopping you from dealing enough nonlethal damage to a living creature to render them unconscious, at which point you could take them prisoner, drag/carry them to a place where no harm will come to them while they're unconscious while you carry out the rest of your mission, etc.
I think the issue is more vow of poverty based than anything, though nonlethal damage has its limitations. Basically, read the lists of necessary magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851), and determine how much of that stuff your ultra-exalted monk can do. That's just the start of it too. For most things that don't involve punching things hard, or punching things harder, the monk is going to be somewhat out of his element. It's not all that versatile a skill set, is what I'm saying. Even when it comes to punching things hard, a good amount of the best monk punch based strategies are heavily item reliant. You're not even getting any size increases.

Edit: I left it out of the actual comment, but what I'm saying about that item list is that just about any of those items is probably better than everything that VoP offers put together. It might not go quite that far, but it's not too far off. Seriously, belts of battle are ridiculous.

[Luciandevine]

Yup, it boils down to a lot of things, DM, campaign, group makeup, literally everything about the game.

Our DM doesn't do much planning ahead, because he never knows whether or not we're going to head in that specific direction or not, and frankly, neither do we. So he sort of makes things up as he goes along, It's far from conventional, but then again, we're not a very conventional group. So he tailors things to the group, but doesn't pull punches. If the rolls go badly for us, we're just as dead as any normal group.

That being said, like I stated earlier, I was simply responding to the name of the thread, and the person who said that it was a bad feat for monks. I know from experience that it can be good, in very specific and niche situations. So that's what I was trying to get across.

As for the little knick-knacks, it's true that such a character does miss them, but, depending on the layout of the battle, and the participants of it, most other people "shouldn't" be taking the damage. As much as the exalted monk would like to avoid conflict, when conflict does arise, he can still stand in the forefront with an ac that will make the fighter jealous, pummeling the enemy into unconsciousness, sometimes emerging without a scratch on him.

Again, this is all quite situational, but the character can be effective in the right circumstances.

[eggynack]

Is there anything stopping the enemy from just kinda walking around the monk? Seems like that would obviate a lot of these exalted tanking tactics, and after the rest of the party is dead, because the monk doesn't really actively do all that much, the enemy can kill him. It's not like exalted tank monks are invincible, so that part will work out eventually.

[Luciandevine]

I'm just going to end my argument by saying this. I know the build has flaws. There are certain things that it just can't do, but that's true of any character who doesn't have money pouring out of his ears. No single character can do everything, and that's why you have a party, to shine where you don't. My build isn't good in every campaign, it certainly won't work for every party, and it requires a specific type of player to play it, and dm to roll with it.

All I was trying to prove was that VoP can be good.

[Luciandevine]

Is there anything stopping the enemy from just kinda walking around the monk? Seems like that would obviate a lot of these exalted tanking tactics, and after the rest of the party is dead, because the monk doesn't really actively do all that much, the enemy can kill him. It's not like exalted tank monks are invincible, so that part will work out eventually.

Sigh, again, isn't that true of basically every other tanking class in the game, with the possible exception of the knight? If the party is tactically retarded, then yes, no tank is truly useful.

[eggynack]

I'm just going to end my argument by saying this. I know the build has flaws. There are certain things that it just can't do, but that's true of any character who doesn't have money pouring out of his ears. No single character can do everything, and that's why you have a party, to shine where you don't. My build isn't good in every campaign, it certainly won't work for every party, and it requires a specific type of player to play it, and dm to roll with it.
Except for druids, for the most part. Most casters, really. I mean, maybe not literally anything, but pretty much anything you'd care to name.


All I was trying to prove was that VoP can be good.
You didn't really succeed at it though. For a VoP character to be good, they need to be natively acquiring a lot of the things on that list, and they separately probably need some barrier to entry to using items naturally. Hence, druid. Monks just don't do all that much, so VoP is not good for them.

[eggynack]

Sigh, again, isn't that true of basically every other tanking class in the game, with the possible exception of the knight? If the party is tactically retarded, then yes, no tank is truly useful.
That's why tanking is bad. In 3.5, you mostly need to be actively defeating the enemy to find success. Crusaders can kinda do it, as can some of the better AoO/tripping builds, but without some way to incentivize the enemy attacking the monk, becoming really difficult to kill is not that useful.

[ArcturusV]

Well, more like it's true of the nature of DnD. DnD is not about "Tanking". It never has been. It's an MMO concept that somehow people try to backport into DnD even though DnD never really supported it until 4th edition. DnD was primary more of an adventure vehicle where you don't just charge into battle but try to think, plan, and act accordingly. Incidentally why there are a lot of "trap" monsters like Gelatenous Cubes, Mimics, etc, etc, etc.

So it's a disconnect I can't really fathom when someone says something is a good "tank" build. Because it's DnD, you don't want to get attacked if you can help it. Armor, save bonuses, etc, are designed to give you a bit of wiggle room if you do, not so you can just laugh at feeble enemies but so you can say "Whew, didn't die that time. Lets kill this before it gets another shot".

Just how DnD goes. Offense outstrips Defense pretty quickly. The ability to kill is pretty much always higher than the ability to avoid being killed. Unless you get to a level where Practical Immortality kicks in and you have a basement full of Clones kicking it somewhere, etc.

So I feel if the basis of the "It can be good" angle is it's ability to "tank"... it's a failing argument. I mean I'm sure because people do bring it up that somewhere out there, there are DMs who run MMO level stupid enemies who just rush the first target they see and attack even when they aren't doing anything to him, and ignore all other threats. I've just never seen it.

[Luciandevine]

You didn't really succeed at it though. For a VoP character to be good, they need to be natively acquiring a lot of the things on that list, and they separately probably need some barrier to entry to using items naturally. Hence, druid. Monks just don't do all that much, so VoP is not good for them.

Unless, and this may come as a shock to you, the quest is designed differently from your average D&D quest. Not every quest is guaranteed to incorporate all of those challenges necessitating every one of those things. If you're fighting mostly humanoids, because, I don't know, the party is low level and not fighting things able to do such things, or because the world you're in was designed differently, it changes what things are good or necessary.

In a low magic or low fantasy game, where you fight mostly humanoids of various levels, or generally have less access to the normally abundant supply of magic items and effects, that list that you linked changes drastically.

[Luciandevine]

The thing about the build though, is that the feats that you need to have the high ac don't require you to sacrifice anything from your normal feat path. You get all the exalted feats you need just from VoP, letting you take all the other offensive feats you want. The damage output of my VoP monk isn't any lower than the potential of any other monk, with the exception of items like the Monk's Belt. VoP grants ability bonuses that you can further use to increase both your damage output and defensive capabilities, making you just as effective at dishing out the damage as you are at avoiding it.

It's true that in campaigns that have you constantly fighting in the underdark, where darkvision is a necessity, or constantly battling against demons, devils, dragons, etc... that the build is far from ideal, and thus not recommended.

But, as I said, in low magic or low fantasy campaigns, or campaigns that have you fighting more against humanoid with class levels, giants, or other creatures whose primary form of attacking is through melee combat, such a build can be devastatingly effective.

[eggynack]

The fact of the matter is, if you're playing a game where everyone always runs directly at the tank, and never does anything beyond face punching, things aren't going to be all that difficult. It's not a good measure for how powerful a given build is. A VoP monk build isn't going to be all that versatile, or even all that powerful, but if the game demands neither, well, there ya go.

[Talya]

VOP would actually be decent-to-good in the majority of campaigns I've played in. Most games I've ever played start at very low level, have organicly generated loot, and lack "Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe" to customize your gear. I've played in games where I was the only one flying by 12th level (sorceress using Alter Self to turn into an Averiel). In such a campaign, VOP isn't terrible. (Not that my sorceress ever would have taken it.)

In a lower-magic game, where magic items are scarce, it's godlike and almost feels like cheating. (Played a VOP Urban Barbarian/Ranger/Fist of the Forest in one like that.)

[Phelix-Mu]

The failure in VoP, as far as I'm concerned, is largely that the game designers made a game where magic/magic items can solve most of the big challenges handily, and then created a thing that strips a mundane character of magic items without giving ample compensation.

The concept itself isn't bad. A character, through force of will and self-perfection, denies themselves the comfort of gear and items that make certain things very easy. In return, the character gets special power. There is nothing in the fluff of D&D that says this concept is somehow innately going to fail.

The problem is that the "special power" granted by VoP is horribly inadequate. It doesn't keep up with WBL in key areas. The Exalted feats in the book are largely class specific, and a character that starts the game with VoP will be hard-pressed to find enough Exalted feats to fill all the coming levels in a meaningful way (unless the character favors more vows). Even for those that a character can take, they are of varying power levels, ranging from some pretty cosmetic ones, to ones that are situationally useful, and a few gems that really can be of use to a specific build.

Moreover, the concept is flawed in a major way: With the abilities of VoP, you create a character that has a very specific set of feats that define a very high-caliber, ultra-good, and very specialized skill set. But, the feats are compensation for items, which are designed to be flexible, usable on demand, and customizable to meet mission demands (and the changes in build as the character picks up new levels).

Feats are the opposite of flexible, and those that are gained early on, when they are relevant, can't be sold for half and reinvested in level-appropriate feats later on. The obvious (if time-consuming) fix is:

1.) Way more Exalted Feats. Some of them will need to cover the bases of the common magic item complaints; a method of flying, a method of quick transport (doesn't need to be teleport, just some manner of getting from A to B faster than walking), a method of overcoming DR, etc. Since these are Exalted feats, the power level can be higher than normal feats, as they are contingent on good behavior.

2.) Ability to switch around Exalted feat configuration or have an allotment of floating feats (a la Chameleon) that can be nailed down each morning to fit the day's demands.

3.) The benefits, aside from feats, need to more accurately model what WBL does. Just because your character trained to live without items doesn't mean they should suck harder. In fact, the whole point of the special power is to make it so they don't need them. Otherwise, the powers of goodness are shafting their devotees.

Finally, I am a big fan of alignment neutral variations of VoP. I made a neutral variant, Vow of Independence, some time ago. The idea was the character only uses stuff they craft themselves using mundane means. Thus, the character can have mundane gear and tools, but must rely on their own skills to provide for themselves.

Still runs afoul of magic profusion, but the game really shouldn't have the morphine-drip of magic items be a strict requirement to actually be effective.

[Psyren]

I doubt any sane DM will allow a Vow of Poverty for an animal companion, good magical beast or not.

I surely wouldn't.

Why not? They can wear magical items, and thus forego their bonuses, like anyone else.

[Phelix-Mu]

Why not? They can wear magical items, and thus forego their bonuses, like anyone else.

There is a vague area here. Creatures incapable of understanding the moral implications of their actions due to low Intelligence scores should be incapable of the sacrifice that results in a greater level of piety. Because they can't be pious.

If my character is the one dressing his dire chihuahua up in a +5 ballet tutu of fortification, it's my character's action, not the chihuahua's. Since the chihuahua can't comprehend it's increased suckage due to no tutu, I would argue it's not capable of making the sacrifice.

But there is ample room for interpretation, I think, and minimal chance of resulting dysfunction (at least without homebrew Exalted feats).

tr/dl: It's not a sacrifice if you don't understand the value of what you're losing (even after having lost it).

That said, if the Familiar or Animal Companion has gained some level of sentience, then it's more than qualified, and the feat is even rather appropriate (as many items are hard for them to use, and animals come from a background of having to survive by instinct and inner resolve anyway).

[Flickerdart]

That said, if the Familiar or Animal Companion has gained some level of sentience, then it's more than qualified, and the feat is even rather appropriate (as many items are hard for them to use, and animals come from a background of having to survive by instinct and inner resolve anyway).
All familiars are sentient, and at higher levels are probably smarter than the party fighter. Exalted Companions, as magical beasts, are also intelligent creatures.

[ArcturusV]

Then of course there are mounts, where it actually makes sense. Not only are they more intelligent, but they're ripped from the celestial realms, are thus probably good aligned and might have such things. So it makes more sense for my Paladin's charger to have Vow of Poverty. Or at least slightly more sense than the 2 int Animal Companion.

[Pickford]

georgie_leech:

For instance, what would this Monk do against anything with flight?

The same thing a Warblade without VoP would? (Incidentally, can't this Monk use a Sling still as it's a simple weapon? Which...courtesy of VoP is a +5 sling). Actually, come to think on it, crossbows are also simple weapons.

eggynack:

Is there anything stopping the enemy from just kinda walking around the monk?

The provoked AoO grapple/trip checks? :)

[eggynack]

There is a vague area here. Creatures incapable of understanding the moral implications of their actions due to low Intelligence scores should be incapable of the sacrifice that results in a greater level of piety. Because they can't be pious.

If my character is the one dressing his dire chihuahua up in a +5 ballet tutu of fortification, it's my character's action, not the chihuahua's. Since the chihuahua can't comprehend it's increased suckage due to no tutu, I would argue it's not capable of making the sacrifice.

But there is ample room for interpretation, I think, and minimal chance of resulting dysfunction (at least without homebrew Exalted feats).

tr/dl: It's not a sacrifice if you don't understand the value of what you're losing (even after having lost it).

That said, if the Familiar or Animal Companion has gained some level of sentience, then it's more than qualified, and the feat is even rather appropriate (as many items are hard for them to use, and animals come from a background of having to survive by instinct and inner resolve anyway).
So, exalted companions, having an intelligence of three, and having a good alignment as they do,would logically be an acceptable target for VoP to any given DM under your standards. Thus, the plan works.

[eggynack]

eggynack:
The provoked AoO grapple/trip checks? :)
The AoO range is quite a bit smaller without the traditional item based size increases that monks are a party to. There're some decent threatened squares increases, but it's harder, and you'd probably be a lot better off with a reach weapon and some items.

[Psyren]

There is a vague area here. Creatures incapable of understanding the moral implications of their actions due to low Intelligence scores should be incapable of the sacrifice that results in a greater level of piety. Because they can't be pious.

If you're high enough to take the feat then that's enough for me. Remember, they have to rise above animal intelligence to get it anyway.

Even if you rule that regular ACs don't have the necessary sense of morality, it's pretty obvious that Exalted Companions do, because they have non-neutral alignments.

[Pickford]

The AoO range is quite a bit smaller without the traditional item based size increases that monks are a party to. There're some decent threatened squares increases, but it's harder, and you'd probably be a lot better off with a reach weapon and some items.

You didn't specify any range, you just said walk :)

[Phelix-Mu]

So, exalted companions, having an intelligence of three, and having a good alignment as they do,would logically be an acceptable target for VoP to any given DM under your standards. Thus, the plan works.


If you're high enough to take the feat then that's enough for me. Remember, they have to rise above animal intelligence to get it anyway.

Even if you rule that regular ACs don't have the necessary sense of morality, it's pretty obvious that Exalted Companions do, because they have non-neutral alignments.

Being very late to the argument, I added that last caveat in case you were talking an Intelligent AC. I wasn't quite sure of the premise, so I guess I should have backed up and read...more...VoP...de...bate...

....

Sorry, lost the will to live there for a moment. My bad for not paying attention.

[Pickford]

So, exalted companions, having an intelligence of three, and having a good alignment as they do,would logically be an acceptable target for VoP to any given DM under your standards. Thus, the plan works.

It need only have DM permission to take an exalted feat. So really, as in all things in D&D, that's the tricky part.

[eggynack]

You didn't specify any range, you just said walk :)
I said walk around. That means walking around with the greatest possible radius, which is highly capable of being greater than what a VoP monk can defend. I'm pretty sure that I never said "Walking around as close to the monk as possible."


Being very late to the argument, I added that last caveat in case you were talking an Intelligent AC. I wasn't quite sure of the premise, so I guess I should have backed up and read...more...VoP...de...bate...

....

Sorry, lost the will to live there for a moment. My bad for not paying attention.
Heh, yeah. It's a pretty cool trick, I think. If a DM would kill the plan, it would be because it's a rather cheesy plan. I mean, if you're sacrificing the WBL of a character who has no WBL of their own. You can equip an animal companion, but that's coming out of your money, and if you're going VoP too, it's barely any cost at all.

[Pickford]

I said walk around. That means walking around with the greatest possible radius, which is highly capable of being greater than what a VoP monk can defend. I'm pretty sure that I never said "Walking around as close to the monk as possible."

Maybe you can't get around without passing within 5' of the monk (i.e. Charging someone else). Again, there were no real specifics so it's a fair point. You asked a question and got an answer. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

Maybe you can't get around without passing within 5' of the monk (i.e. Charging someone else). Again, there were no real specifics so it's a fair point. You asked a question and got an answer. :smallwink:
I guess if you want to be arbitrarily pedantic, sure. It's not really a fair point on a broader, "This character is good," scale though, because it takes almost no effort to put this in clearer language. The enemy can trivially travel around the monk at a range that makes this VoP tanking plan a bad one. Hooray.

[Phelix-Mu]

Heh, yeah. It's a pretty cool trick, I think. If a DM would kill the plan, it would be because it's a rather cheesy plan. I mean, if you're sacrificing the WBL of a character who has no WBL of their own. You can equip an animal companion, but that's coming out of your money, and if you're going VoP too, it's barely any cost at all.

In the past, I've allowed cohorts of VoP characters to get a slice of the pie that the VoP character can't have. I couldn't see that this was in violation at the time, and I feel rather the same way now. I'd probably feel the same about an AC getting the benefit of items for a druid that had VoP...might have to think about that.

But doubling up VoP between druid and the AC? Now that feels a little sketchy. But the effects of the stuff doesn't stack from one creature to the next; now the AC tank/shredder glows, but that's not particularly relevant in the grand scheme of things (considering Share Spells will trump most Exalted feats in distressingly short order).

[Pickford]

I guess if you want to be arbitrarily pedantic, sure. It's not really a fair point on a broader, "This character is good," scale though, because it takes almost no effort to put this in clearer language. The enemy can trivially travel around the monk at a range that makes this VoP tanking plan a bad one. Hooray.

I'm not being pedantic, you made unstated assumptions which not all reading your post immediately assumed (not being internet mind readers)

edit: You also asked how, and I gave a how.

[eggynack]

I'm not being pedantic, you made unstated assumptions which not all reading your post immediately assumed (not being internet mind readers)

edit: You also asked how, and I gave a how.
The point was that the monk isn't much of a roadblock. He isn't one. Arguing about the way I worded things is being pedantic, unless you seek to prove that the monk is difficult to get around outside of a narrow hallway.

[nedz]

VOP would actually be decent-to-good in the majority of campaigns I've played in. Most games I've ever played start at very low level, have organically generated loot, and lack "Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe" to customize your gear. I've played in games where I was the only one flying by 12th level (sorceress using Alter Self to turn into an Averiel). In such a campaign, VOP isn't terrible. (Not that my sorceress ever would have taken it.)

In a lower-magic game, where magic items are scarce, it's godlike and almost feels like cheating. (Played a VOP Urban Barbarian/Ranger/Fist of the Forest in one like that.)

I suppose that's the real issue with VoP — it has fixed bonuses which assume a given campaign wealth structure.

In a low wealth game it is OP
In a WBL wealth game with Magic Marts it is weak

Now this means that there is a campaign wealth structure for which it is balanced (Mean value theorem and all that); so the feat should be tunable to the actual wealth structure of the game: only it isn't.

[Chronos]

Quoth Pickford:

The same thing a Warblade without VoP would?
So, you're saying that the VoP monk would activate his boots of flying so he can go hit the flying thing?

[Talya]

Just playing devil's advocate and thinking "out loud" as a type...

If the monk kept Jump skill capped, by level 15 they've got between +43 and +48 on jump checks, they can reliably hit an 12' high jump without chance of failure. A 12' high jump allows them to attack something 20' in the air...

Okay, nevermind. Not even close to being able to leap into the sky to grapple a target. It does seem to me they'd still benefit from tiger claw maneuvers, though.

[Pickford]

So, you're saying that the VoP monk would activate his boots of flying so he can go hit the flying thing?

No, his minions (companions) would use a wand of fly on him. :smallamused:

[Talya]

No, his minions (companions) would use a wand of fly on him. :smallamused:

Let's see now; we can spend our round buffing the monk so he can ineffectually fight in this encounter...

...Or we can spend our round ending/seriously advancing the fight.

I could possibly see a wand of Fly, Swift. That gives the monk one round to get to his target and initiate a grapple to stay in the air, and doesn't cost the caster their turn.

[ArcturusV]

Jump thing is an interesting idea. I wonder if I can make it work necessarily. Only issue I see with it:

Enemies A) Fliers who melee. In this it's not really a problem so long as you ready/delay actions to the appropriate triggers. Wait for them to come in range and then sucker punch them. So fighting your various evil bats, eagles, etc, not sweating too much.

Enemies B) Fliers who fight at range. The classic example would be Dragons. Dragons ain't got no reason to land and trade shots with all your melee buddies. They'll just go and breath weapon the crap out of you over and over. Meaning they'll need to be in breath weapon range. Which is anywhere form... I believe 50' to 100' off the top of my head? So 50', with a 8' reach, means a 42' result on a vertical jump check which would require a DC of... a lot... 168? Probably possible in some strange Epic level scenario. but not a feasible solution. Hmm. Having a goliath buddy chuck you as an improvised weapon up to X range... say within 10 feet then "air jump" by delaying your turn until you hit the target square he threw you at? Very silly but may work by RAW?

I dunno. Insane ideas. Spitballing. Could be fun to see happen just once.

[Karnith]

Having a goliath buddy chuck you as an improvised weapon up to X range... say within 10 feet then "air jump" by delaying your turn until you hit the target square he threw you at?
We call that the Fastball Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_Special). No, I don't have a comment on the RAW

[tricktroller]

I don't know if anyone posted about Eidetic Spellcaster ACF but you still have to spend the gold for writing the spells in y our spellbook you just spend it on incense instead,

[Karnith]

I don't know if anyone posted about Eidetic Spellcaster ACF but you still have to spend the gold for writing the spells in y our spellbook you just spend it on incense instead,
True, but you can get a lot of spells for free on level-up if you care to. I believe that an Elven Generalist Collegiate Wizard gets 5 free spells known per level.

[tricktroller]

true but then why not just play a sorcerer?

[Karnith]

true but then why not just play a sorcerer?
Because said Wizard will have a great many more spells known than most Sorcerers ever will? Because said Wizard would get access to higher-level spells faster? Because said Wizard would get bonus feats? Because prepared casting appeals to some people? Because having Intelligence as a casting stat is cool?
Because smoking a joint to prepare spells is funny?
There are lots of possible reasons.

[JaronK]

Yeah, but Vow of Peace :smallfrown::smallyuk:


You enchant your fists to beat up undead and give defensive bonuses. +5 Eager Defending Undead Bane Fists of Disruption and Warning, perhaps?

+5 AC, +7 Initiative is solid right there.

JaronK

[Talya]

Because said Wizard will have a great many more spells known than most Sorcerers ever will?

To be specific: An elven generalist collegiate wizard gets 102 + Level 1 Int bonus ... typically +5) spells of levels 1-9 over 20 levels, plus all cantrips. Of those 107ish spells, the typical distribution is: all/17/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/20. (This is so you can compare directly against the sorcerer spells known table.)

A sorcerer gets 34 spells known of levels 1-9, plus 9 cantrips.

[Psyren]

You enchant your fists to beat up undead and give defensive bonuses. +5 Eager Defending Undead Bane Fists of Disruption and Warning, perhaps?

+5 AC, +7 Initiative is solid right there.

JaronK

The problem isn't beating things up (though being stuck with nonlethal against everything that isn't a construct or undead - yes, you are forced to subdue fiends, aberrations and chromatic dragons :smallsigh: - isn't exactly thrilling), it's what happens after that. You must take prisoners - the logistics of which get extremely annoying extremely quickly. Worse, you must force your party to do the same, lest you fall. And you must do this for every single fight, forever.

[tricktroller]

but wouldn't said wizard be vastly under powered compared to a wizard with money to spend and crafting feats? I mean, even more so than a regular character is underpowered by being a VoP character. A wizard with access to scrolls, wands, potions, etc can have a million different readied spells and the ability to swap out something on the fly. How would you make VoP even remotely worthwhile for a straight wizard?

[ArcturusV]

Well, honestly the way it was put forth it makes a fairly clear case for "... yeah... it's not better than a straight wizard BUT... it's better than a Sorcerer."

[Ansem]

but wouldn't said wizard be vastly under powered compared to a wizard with money to spend and crafting feats? I mean, even more so than a regular character is underpowered by being a VoP character. A wizard with access to scrolls, wands, potions, etc can have a million different readied spells and the ability to swap out something on the fly. How would you make VoP even remotely worthwhile for a straight wizard?

Boosts to main stat with other stats wasted and AC bonus vs Items that help spellcasting, reduce metamagic, better boost on main stat only for casting and other shenanigan items just outweigh Vow of Poverty.

You really need a class that cant use any items or cant get any useful items for VoP to be good. Else what could be acquired outweighs the bonuses.
Although maybe in some campaign where there is hardly any civilization or technology and getting items itself is limited, VoP would make sense (although I'm still sure this scarse-item world has some really good gems hidden in them to make it all worthwhile :P)

[tricktroller]

well I guess maybe a kung fu genius monk wizard could do alright. Maybe a changeling collegiate wizard eidetic spellcaster monk warshaper thing could be cool.

[Ansem]

well I guess maybe a kung fu genius monk wizard could do alright. Maybe a changeling collegiate wizard eidetic spellcaster monk warshaper thing could be cool.

Monk requires items for its potential so no-go there.

[SiuiS]

Best typo.

You're darn tootin'. Reminds me of that old The Dragon comic with the ogres and the dragon that played snooker.

[Rogue Shadows]

Not sure how good the wizard could realistically be when you think about it. Sure, the wizard can start with their spellbook at level 1, but the vow of poverty means they have to give that up, doesn't it? The requirements for the feat allow the taker to have only a simple weapon, simple clothes, and a spell component pouch to their name.

Unless the wizard is a human and uses their other feat for Spell Mastery...

[JaronK]

Rogue, Eidetic Spellcaster lets you not use a book at all.

JaronK

[Rubik]

You're darn tootin'. Reminds me of that old The Dragon comic with the ogres and the dragon that played snooker.I can only assume you mean Wormy. (https://sites.google.com/site/wormycollected/)

[Rogue Shadows]

Rogue, Eidetic Spellcaster lets you not use a book at all.

JaronK

An Eidetic Spellcaster still has to spend gold to learn spells, doesn't he? Except for the default 2 per level. Might be better off going Sorcerer over Wizard in that case.

[ArcturusV]

Excepting those he gains as he levels. And there are feats and options so that the wizard can learn something like 6 spells on level up. Which is more than a sorcerer would get for certain.

[Talya]

Arcturus is right. I broke it down on the previous page.


To be specific: An elven generalist collegiate wizard gets 102 + Level 1 Int bonus ... typically +5) spells of levels 1-9 over 20 levels, plus all cantrips. Of those 107ish spells, the typical distribution is: all/17/10/10/10/10/10/10/10/20. (This is so you can compare directly against the sorcerer spells known table.)

A sorcerer gets 34 spells known of levels 1-9, plus 9 cantrips.

[Rogue Shadows]

Arcturus is right. I broke it down on the previous page.

I really hate the wizard class that 3.5 stuck us with...

[Rubik]

I really hate the wizard class that 3.5 stuck us with...Now stop and consider that there's more than one way to cast all of those, entirely spontaneously.

[incarnate236]

We have a Monk with Vow of Poverty which is, for at least the character was played beforehand, only gaining from the feat.

[gorfnab]

I posted this about VoP Wizard on page three, but since I am seeing some discussion on Eidetic Spellcaster Wizards I will repost.

A VoP Wizard can be done (requires two flaws to get it at first level).

Easy Bake Wizard

Elf, preferably Gray or Fire

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Spontaneous Divination ACF - Complete Champion - Optional but great at higher levels
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

For a little cheese look into Domain Wizard from UA since it does stack with the Elf Wizard Racial Sub.

Note: Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

Edit: If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level and 6 additional spells known every level after that.

Other feats to consider:
Eschew Materials
Spell Mastery (PHB, prereq for Uncanny Forethought)
Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil)
Nexus Method (Dragon #319)
Greyhawk Method (Dragon #315)
Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage)
Reserve feats like Acidic Splatter (Complete Mage)

[Rubik]

Do note that an Eidetic Wizard cannot learn new spells outside of his spells per level, since it requires expensive drugs that he can't use.

[Talya]

Do note that an Eidetic Wizard cannot learn new spells outside of his spells per level, since it requires expensive drugs that he can't use.

This is correct. However, as I posted, they are already going to have a huge number of spells known if they go the Elven Generalist/Collegiate Wizard path. (And...oooh...Aerenal Arcanist from Eberron if available, nice.)

That's 107-127 spells known...compared to a sorcerer's 34.

I worked out the WBL on that a long time ago...and collegiate wizard was worth quite the giant pile of money by 20. Elven Generalist is worth half of what collegiate wizard is. Aerenal Arcanist is worth half again.

[ArcturusV]

Relevant question for consideration:

VoP suggests that, yes, YOU cannot own stuff. Nor can you 'borrow' things like cloaks of resistance, etc, etc, etc. But it does give allowance for one shot items like cure light wounds potions. Or temporary one shot uses like Ebony Fly compared to long term use of an item.

So could someone else donate your magic drugs to smoke? Just a one and done, call it good?

[Talya]

Absolutely.

I can even make a good case for reading a tome/manual that way. (but for comfort, someone else has to turn the pages for you.)

[nedz]

I think so, but you can't buy your drugs from your share of the loot. You have to get another party member to buy them from their share. In an exalted friendly party this should not be an issue, though it does beg the question: Was the only reason they bought them so that you could use them ? This could be more tricky.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think so, but you can't buy your drugs from your share of the loot. You have to get another party member to buy them from their share. In an exalted friendly party this should not be an issue, though it does beg the question: Was the only reason they bought them so that you could use them ? This could be more tricky.

This created a fun mental picture.

Fighter rolls up his "incense" and starts puffing.
Wizard: hey man, don't bogart the "incense." Puff, puff, pass.
Fighter: my bad,man. *passes the "incense"*
Wizard: *takes a couple puffs* ...... Dude, I just came up with an awesome spell. *takes another puff* it reveals hidden foes and blinds everything in a 40 ft circle. I call it ... Glitterdust.
Fighter: dude! That sounds awesome ...... Gimme another hit.

[Pickford]

The problem isn't beating things up (though being stuck with nonlethal against everything that isn't a construct or undead - yes, you are forced to subdue fiends, aberrations and chromatic dragons :smallsigh: - isn't exactly thrilling), it's what happens after that. You must take prisoners - the logistics of which get extremely annoying extremely quickly. Worse, you must force your party to do the same, lest you fall. And you must do this for every single fight, forever.

Hrm...Vow of Nonviolence only requires you (and your allies) to not slay a helpless foe.

Outright killing them however confers no penalties.

Further:

You may ask a defeated creature to give you an oath of surrender or noninterference in exchange for its life. If the creature breaks this oath to you, you can allow your allies to deal with the creature as they see fit without breaking their oaths or your vow of nonviolence.

It is not often recognized, but in D&D the term 'allies' also refers to yourself. Thus if they break an oath, you may kill them without violating your vow of nonviolence. Vow of Peace appears to follow the same rules, seeing as it stacks with Vow of Nonviolence.

[Talya]

I think so, but you can't buy your drugs from your share of the loot. You have to get another party member to buy them from their share. In an exalted friendly party this should not be an issue, though it does beg the question: Was the only reason they bought them so that you could use them ? This could be more tricky.

Not really.

You either go by the spirit of VOP (which means people aren't so legalistic that you don't have access to essential class features like holy symbols or spellbooks), or you go by the letter of VOP. We tend to discuss the letter of VOP. The letter of VOP is unconcerned with intent, or the use of resources by other people for you. It's only concerned with the specific things forbidden in the rules.

Now, I understand your point, but once you get into "That really goes against the spirit of the Vow"... then you're actually opening up options, not closing them, because all the legalistic silliness goes away.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hrm...Vow of Nonviolence only requires you (and your allies) to not slay a helpless foe.

Outright killing them however confers no penalties.

Further:


It is not often recognized, but in D&D the term 'allies' also refers to yourself. Thus if they break an oath, you may kill them without violating your vow of nonviolence. Vow of Peace appears to follow the same rules, seeing as it stacks with Vow of Nonviolence.

A) that's patently absurd. No DM would let that fly, period.
B) how does one go about killing someone when you're forbidden from doing them HP damage, ability damage or drain, targetting them with death effects, or any other effect that "have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm?" You know, that other, separate clause in the special section for the feat? The one that has nothing to do with the section on extracting a non-aggression pact from defeated foes?

[Talya]

B) how does one go about killing someone when you're forbidden from doing them HP damage, ability damage or drain, targetting them with death effects, or any other effect that "have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm?" You know, that other, separate clause in the special section for the feat? The one that has nothing to do with the section on extracting a non-aggression pact from defeated foes?


He said Vow of Nonviolence. You are describing Vow of Peace.

Note:
I've played several VOP characters, and have never even considered taking either of those two vows. They both seem totally incompatible with playing D&D.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He said Vow of Nonviolence. You are describing Vow of Peace.

Non-violence is the one with the clause for extracting the non-aggression pact. Peace has no such exception and it -does- have the same clause about what forms of attack are forbidden.

[ArcturusV]

Oddly I got a game where I'm going VERY low OP, and have built an Exalted VoP monk, who likely is going to pick them up and go into Apostle of Peace. I'll let you know how it goes.

But I'm going into it with eyes open expecting that I'm going to suck anyway. *shrug* Heck, I got Nimbus of Light and Stigmata as two of my bonus feats already rather than the "only good one" Touch of Golden Ice (Short one point of Con for it).

I expect it'll go bad. *shrug* But it'll be the first time I ever saw it practically in play. And I know there's a difference in the Theory Crafting and the At the Table in quite a few things. So it should be interesting at least.

[Pickford]

Non-violence is the one with the clause for extracting the non-aggression pact. Peace has no such exception and it -does- have the same clause about what forms of attack are forbidden.

It doesn't explicitly remove the escape clause that Vow of Nonviolence introduces. This is important given that VoN is a pre-requisite for VoP and they are in the same book back to back.

edit: Interestingly, VoP only requires that you not deal ability damage via weapons or spells. That leaves out Touch of Golden Ice which occurs through simple touch and is a feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It doesn't explicitly remove the escape clause that Vow of Nonviolence introduces. This is important given that VoN is a pre-requisite for VoP and they are in the same book back to back.

edit: Interestingly, VoP only requires that you not deal ability damage via weapons or spells. That leaves out Touch of Golden Ice which occurs through simple touch and is a feat.

Doesn't matter. The forbidden attack forms make it impossible for the character to kill any living creature regardless of that clause, which only applies to humanoids and monstrous humanoids anyway.

[Psyren]

Hrm...Vow of Nonviolence only requires you (and your allies) to not slay a helpless foe.

Outright killing them however confers no penalties.

How would you go about doing that?


Vow of Peace appears to follow the same rules, seeing as it stacks with Vow of Nonviolence.

No, Vow of Peace does not have that clause. Only VoN does.

[ArcturusV]

Death through massive damage? I guess that's what he's getting at. As long as you don't knock them to -9 to 0 HP, but go straight from 1 to dead, then you're legit?

Kind of tenuous.

[Psyren]

Death through massive damage? I guess that's what he's getting at. As long as you don't knock them to -9 to 0 HP, but go straight from 1 to dead, then you're legit?

Kind of tenuous.

My question was mostly rhetorical - it's not possible to do what he describes without breaking the vow.

1) Massive damage requires lethal damage, which you can't do.
2) It also falls under "causing harm to a living creature," as would just about any way of trying to kill someone outright.

[ArcturusV]

Maybe he was talking about your allies doing it? So as long as it's not you doing it, and the target isn't down, out, bleeding and helpless, it's okay?

Though a savvy DM might smack you for possibly trying to take advantage of such a loophole. If it happens in the heat of battle, sure. But if the battle is already effectively over, and you're just "mopping up" the last minions or something...

I dunno. Mind is kinda mush right now.

[Pickford]

Maybe he was talking about your allies doing it? So as long as it's not you doing it, and the target isn't down, out, bleeding and helpless, it's okay?

Though a savvy DM might smack you for possibly trying to take advantage of such a loophole. If it happens in the heat of battle, sure. But if the battle is already effectively over, and you're just "mopping up" the last minions or something...

I dunno. Mind is kinda mush right now.

You aren't bound to prevent your allies from killing someone outright (i.e. They have 8 hp left, have no surrendered, and your ally does 20 damage killing them).

[Chronos]

That's kind of inconsistent with contributing by dealing nonlethal damage, though: Either you did enough nonlethal damage, in which case your allies' damage knocks them out before killing them and you have to figure out what to do with the prisoners, or your allies did enough damage to take them directly from conscious to dead without going unconscious first, in which case any nonlethal damage you might have done was completely irrelevant.

[Phelix-Mu]

To sum up my conclusions, the Vow of Poverty is good for everything except internet discussions.

VoP= Vow of PleaseStopTalkingAboutThis:smallwink:

[Talya]

To sum up my conclusions, the Vow of Poverty is good for everything except internet discussions.

VoP= Vow of PleaseStopTalkingAboutThis:smallwink:

Actually, right now they're discussing Vow of Peace/Vow of Nonviolence, which have nothing to do with Vow of Poverty. :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, right now they're discussing Vow of Peace/Vow of Nonviolence, which have nothing to do with Vow of Poverty. :smallbiggrin:

I had to stop reading some pages ago. My eyes were threatening to endorse union action and stage a walkout. Thanks for setting me straight, though.:smallredface: