Villain Victorious Competition

[Tim Proctor]

Brought forth by the numerous BBEG help threads and Elder Evil threads within the spirit of the Iron Chef competitions, the Villain Victorious competition has risen from the depths of the evil underworld.

The Contestants, will produce Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evil, and Big Bad Evil Goons in a rotational manner based on the Theme, Encounter Level, and Type.

Descriptions:
Elder Evils (EE):

Near godlike evils that haunt the campaign setting as described in EE p. 6, and while the players will generally not have to fight these beings they will fight a chief hench-person, minor hench-people, and mooks. These entries will include:

Background: 250 -500 words scaled by increasing knowledge DCs.

Goals: 100 - 250 words again scaled by increasing knowledge DCs.

Timeline: The signs separated by Faint, Moderate, Strong, and Overwhelming (EE p 7). 100-200 words each.

Description: A stated version of a EE, and 2-3 main minions that would serve it, and references to mooks (e.g. MMI pg 18). The elder evil (or aspect of it) should have the traits listed in the sidebar on EE p. 6.

Encounter Information: 1 capstone adventure, with Writing Your First Adventure (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a) as a guide, which features the monsters in the description section.

Exemplars of Evil (EoE):

Recurring Major Villains as described on EoE p. 5, and 2-3 minor hench-people (BBEG). These entries will include:

Background: 250 -500 words scaled by increasing knowledge DCs.

Goals: 100 - 250 words again scaled by increasing knowledge DCs.

Using These Villains: 500 -1000 word guide for a DM to use the villains.

Description: A stated version of a BBEG, and references to mooks (e.g. MMI pg 18).

Encounter Information: 1 capstone adventure, with Writing Your First Adventure (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a) as a guide, which features the monsters in the description section.

Big Bad Evil Goons (BBEG):

One-Shot Minor Villains as described on page 5 of EoE. These entries will include:

Background: 250 -500 words scaled by increasing knowledge DCs.

Goals: 100 - 250 words again scaled by increasing knowledge DCs.

Using These Villains: 500 -1000 word guide for a DM to use the villains.

Description: A stated version of a BBEG, and references to mooks (e.g. MMI pg 18).

Encounter Information: 1 adventure, with Writing Your First Adventure (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ab/20060728a) as a guide, which features the monsters in the description section.


Note: please stay away from acts of evil that are sexual in nature, they are a very taboo subject and this competition is not the appropriate venue to deal with them.


The Rules:

The rules are that these are tools for the DM and homebrew, dragon magazine, D&D 3.5 books and web materials are all acceptable. However, note that players love to argue with DMs so a RAW approach is preferable.


The Judges:

The Judges will grade entries based on 4 criteria with grades of 1-5 (with 5 being the highest).

1) Story line/Plot: it needs to be intriguing for players so the fluff aspects are worth quite a bit. The goal is to be an easy to read for the DM and good enough to capture the attention of a generic D&D play group.

2) Power level: these sessions will be based on a suggested encounter level for a medium powered party of an appropriate level. Medium power will assume that the players aren't using any cheese, have an appropriate WBL but no relics, artifacts, etc., Wizards will have the minimum amount of spells, etc. This is a vague concept so much will be at a judges discretion. The goal is to have a challenging but winnable adventure.

3) Elegance: with the notion that players love to argue with DMs the more RAW and RAI the better, however sometimes a refluffed concept or ability is needed. The term 'refluffed' includes all material contained from WoTC materials that have be altered/expanded upon (e.g. contestants can refluff NPCs or mechanics from D&D books). Materials from IC competitions, 3rd party materials, etc. should be taken with consideration concerning possible plagiarism (please ensure the usage of such materials is legal). The goal is to add to the flavor of the Villain and keep the arguments to a minimum.

4) Theme: how well does the entry capture of concept of the Theme of the competition. The goal is to make the Villain thematically as accurate as possible without the cost of elegance, power level, nor story line.


Timeline: contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT December 25th, 2013 to submit entries, Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT January 6th, 2014 to submit scorings with explanations. (You know you'll want an excuse to get away from the Family during the holidays).

Speculation, Plagiarism, etc.: Please don't do these things, they aren't cool and only hurt the competition and the enjoyment of the people that have from it.

Villain Victorious I
Theme: Fallen from Grace
Encounter Level: 19-20 (capstone for a group of 4 level-17 characters.)
Type: Elder Evil

Competitors:
Kuulvheysoon
Vamphyr
Brookshw
AMFV
Kazyan
Lord Smeagle

Judges:
unseenmage
Vaz
Pokonic

[Kuulvheysoon]

I don't care if anyone else is going to compete - I am totally in.

Perhaps give the judges 2 weeks to judge, though?

[Vamphyr]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOH, FUDGE YES. THIS IS AWESOME. :smallbiggrin:

[Vanitas]

Nitpick - BBEG usually stands for Bid Bad Evil Guy.

[Tim Proctor]

Nitpick - BBEG usually stands for Bid Bad Evil Guy.
Nit pick, I don't want a gender issue. I'll change the judging time to have 2 weeks.

[unseenmage]

For either of the other two categories I might have joined in but I'm not feeling a build with that much oomph anytime soon.

That said, I think this is a great idea for a competition. I look forward to lurking with evil glee.

[Tim Proctor]

For either of the other two categories I might have joined in but I'm not feeling a build with that much oomph anytime soon.

That said, I think this is a great idea for a competition. I look forward to lurking with evil glee.
I'm a bit unsure what you exactly mean by that? I assume that you're saying the adventure is too much, or that designing a near-deity level creature just isn't your thing?

If the adventure is too much please let me know. I was trying to add something more to the competition rather than an entry. Contestants don't have the build these people and submit a build like in the IC competitions, and if the contestants want they can homebrew. So I wanted something to add depths and I figured an adventure would be good, and it would allow DMs to just grab these entries and run with them.

[unseenmage]

I'm a bit unsure what you exactly mean by that? I assume that you're saying the adventure is too much, or that designing a near-deity level creature just isn't your thing?

If the adventure is too much please let me know. I was trying to add something more to the competition rather than an entry. Contestants don't have the build these people and submit a build like in the IC competitions, and if the contestants want they can homebrew. So I wanted something to add depths and I figured an adventure would be good, and it would allow DMs to just grab these entries and run with them.

Oh I was only commenting on the level. At my current level of skill it takes me a week and a half just to crunch up a level 6-9 character. :smallsmile:
I have not the confidence to tackle something of such a scale as what you propose is all. No slight or negative criticism intended.

Though now that you've drawn my attention to it I realize I missed the adventure requisite. I don't dislike it, though it will definitely separate the wheat from the chaff (consider me well and truly chaff).

[Tim Proctor]

Oh I was only commenting on the level. At my current level of skill it takes me a week and a half just to crunch up a level 6-9 character. :smallsmile:
I have not the confidence to tackle something of such a scale as what you propose is all. No slight or negative criticism intended.

Though now that you've drawn my attention to it I realize I missed the adventure requisite. I don't dislike it, though it will definitely separate the wheat from the chaff (consider me well and truly chaff).

I wouldn't worry about that, I think one of the best ways to get better is to do these types of challenges. Or at least judge, RAW isn't supefr big and having a more player oriented judge would be a cool asset.

[unseenmage]

I wouldn't worry about that, I think one of the best ways to get better is to do these types of challenges. Or at least judge, RAW isn't supefr big and having a more player oriented judge would be a cool asset.

Okay, consider me tentatively throwing my hat in the ring as a Judge.
Just be warned I have never done a thing like this before. Should be interesting.

If more skilled Judges step forward to the point where my analysis would be superfluous please tell me and I'll bow out. No sense slogging through my first attempt when someone who actually knows what they're doing could be in my place.

[Tim Proctor]

Okay, consider me tentatively throwing my hat in the ring as a Judge.
Just be warned I have never done a thing like this before. Should be interesting.

If more skilled Judges step forward to the point where my analysis would be superfluous please tell me and I'll bow out. No sense slogging through my first attempt when someone who actually knows what they're doing could be in my place.

Well here you're judging DMs on their ability to make an interesting, challenging, and thematic adventure which is based around a certain villain. I think players have as much to say and/or add to it as do DMs. Whether you've been playing for 25-years like I have or playing for 2-years it still needs to fit that criteria and not everyone agrees on it. So I wouldn't ever count someone's opinion as superfluous.

[OMG PONIES]

Ooh, interesting! I've never looked at creating my own Elder Evil before, so this should be a fun diversion. If I can't think of anything, I may be able to judge depending on the holiday craziness and number of entries.

[Vaz]

I'll tentatically judge. Not too sure about Elder Evils as I've not really delved into that book outside of bonus feats.

[Tim Proctor]

I'll tentatically judge. Not too sure about Elder Evils as I've not really delved into that book outside of bonus feats.
tentatically, like Cthulhu tentatically judges the unworthy?

Well luckily I don't think there is too much technical stuff to deal with in this competition, like people don't have to have builds for 20 levels where each level qualifies for the next. I think the hardest technical part of this competition is getting the power-level portion so that its in the goldilocks zone. I think the major part about Elder Evils that makes them unique as villains is the power level, and the signs of their coming.

[otakumick]

I kind of want to post an evil, but it doesn't really fit having it's own adventure... more stands in the background until someone notices it and then it stalks them driving them slowly mad and kills them... probably... I wonder if anyone gets what I'm driving at... I've built a couple of versions of this character in the past at CR 10 and 13 using 3.p rules... but aside from having it stand back I never had players face it (despite being nominally level appropriate they would have been slaughtered) they only noticed him once.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Multiple entries allowed (we do have until Christmas, after all)?

[Tim Proctor]

Multiple entries allowed (we do have until Christmas, after all)?
Sure.

@otakumick, that's really close to speculation so I'm gonna have to say that I wish I could help but I can't.

[otakumick]

*sigh* yeah, I just won't enter... It's not like mine is an original idea or anything... just not something I've seen anyone else make a build for...

[Kuulvheysoon]

When you say EL 19-20 for the encounter, is this a boss-type encounter of CR +2/3 (AKA assume capabilities of 16 class levels)?

[Tim Proctor]

When you say EL 19-20 for the encounter, is this a boss-type encounter of CR +2/3 (AKA assume capabilities of 16 class levels)?
That's a very good question, and I would say YES. However, I'd say equivalent character level 17 rather than 16.

I should also state that the party is assumed to be 4 members.

[AMFV]

That's a very good question, and I would say YES. However, I'd say equivalent character level 17 rather than 16.

I should also state that the party is assumed to be 4 members.

Also do we have an assumed optimization level or should we post options for differing optimization levels?

I will definitely be competing, I have one good idea already...

[Tim Proctor]

Also do we have an assumed optimization level or should we post options for differing optimization levels?

I will definitely be competing, I have one good idea already...
Yes, please see above/below:

2) Power level: these sessions will be based on a suggested encounter level for a medium powered party of an appropriate level. Medium power will assume that the players aren't using any cheese, have an appropriate WBL but no relics, artifacts, etc., Wizards will have the minimum amount of spells, etc. This is a vague concept so much will be at a judges discretion. The goal is to have a challenging but winnable adventure.

[Pokonic]

When I saw this, I started to smile.

It kept growing wider as I kept scrolling down.

Put me down as a judge.:smallbiggrin:

[yougi]

I just want to say that while I won't be participating nor judging this round, this sounds awesome, and I do plan on participating in the future if this keeps on. It's just that high level play is not something I have much experience with, nor are Elder Evils.

Also, thesis is due in... 26 days. Wow, gotta go back to work.

[Kazyan]

What the hey, I'll throw this on my list of creative things to crank out. Should be fun.

[Tim Proctor]

I just want to say that while I won't be participating nor judging this round, this sounds awesome, and I do plan on participating in the future if this keeps on. It's just that high level play is not something I have much experience with, nor are Elder Evils.

Also, thesis is due in... 26 days. Wow, gotta go back to work.
Yeah getting a thesis done is probably more important than an Elder Evil.


What the hey, I'll throw this on my list of creative things to crank out. Should be fun.
Awesome, got you down.

[The Oni]

I hereby accept this gauntlet-to-be-thrown-down of challenge and may the best (humanoid) win.

[Kazyan]

Question. For the Background, are you asking for each individual section to be 250-500 words, or all of the sections together? Same for Goals.

[Tim Proctor]

Question. For the Background, are you asking for each individual section to be 250-500 words, or all of the sections together? Same for Goals.

Total. While the background is divided into knowledge checks the total sum should be between 250 to 500 words.

[Kuulvheysoon]

So, I've been thinking (always a dangerous proposition, I know) and an Idea occurred to me.

Tim Proctor, for the next competition, do you want to make up a sample party? Like, I dunno, the stereotypical Mage/Cleric/Fighter/Rogue (More likely Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Warblade/Factotum) at various ECLs (like 1/5/10/15) so we could have a sort of standard rubric to judge against?

Then we'd just keep re-using the same party for all of the VV competitions (using the different ECLs for different leveled competitions).

Just a thought.

[Tim Proctor]

So, I've been thinking (always a dangerous proposition, I know) and an Idea occurred to me.

Tim Proctor, for the next competition, do you want to make up a sample party? Like, I dunno, the stereotypical Mage/Cleric/Fighter/Rogue (More likely Sorcerer/Favored Soul/Warblade/Factotum) at various ECLs (like 1/5/10/15) so we could have a sort of standard rubric to judge against?

Then we'd just keep re-using the same party for all of the VV competitions (using the different ECLs for different leveled competitions).

Just a thought.
My thought was to actually steal the last 4 gold medal Iron Chef builds, but your idea sounds more stable.

Yeah, I can do that.

[Kuulvheysoon]

My thought was to actually steal the last 4 gold medal Iron Chef builds, but your idea sounds more stable.

Yeah, I can do that.

Appreciated, because it is Hellish trying to balance this when I have no idea what's considered an AC in "mid-op".

[Tim Proctor]

Appreciated, because it is Hellish trying to balance this when I have no idea what's considered an AC in "mid-op".
I just realized that I thought about asking if it would help to have sample heroes, but didn't actually ask. I apologize, but we had a very similar thought.

For the tanky one I'd guess around 45. That's just armor 10, shield 5, enhancement 5, defensive fighting 5, dex 3, natural 2, misc 5.

I'll try and get the samples up this week or week-end, for people to use. There is still over 3-weeks left so plenty of time.

[Vamphyr]

I'll try and get the samples up this week or week-end, for people to use. There is still over 3-weeks left so plenty of time.

Woo! That will be very helpful! I'm not 100% sure that I'll have something made up by the end of the challenge, since I usually don't plan for games that go above level 6, but I do love building and fluffing out giant world ending monsters. :smallbiggrin:

We'll see what happens.

[Tim Proctor]

Okay here is the 1st member of the group, the Tank.


Name: Granyte Lei’Bulwark
Race/Class: Earth Dwarf Warblade 3/Fighter 2/Stonelord 7/Deepstone Sentinel 5
Init: -1
Sense: Darkvision 60ft,
Languages: Common, Dwarven, Terran, Undercommon
AC: 40
HP: (3d12, 7d10, 7d8) 284
Resist: DR: 3/-
Fort 28 Ref 8 Will 11
Speed: 10
BAB: 15 Grapple: 21
Melee: Atk +22/17/12 Dmg 2d6 +12
Str 24 Dex 8 Con 30 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 8
SA/SQ: Improved Stonecunning, Stability, Battle clarity, weapon aptitude, Uncanny dodge, Battle ardor, Earth's blood, Earth's Endurance, Stone shape, Earth's Strength, Meld into stone, Mountain fortress stance, Passwall, Crashing mountain juggernaut, Indomitable redoubt, Stone curse, dragon's tooth, Awaken the stone dragon, Earthgrip, and Stone tell.
Feats: Stone Power, Combat Expertise, Shards of Granite, Earth Devotion, Improved Toughness, Heavy Armor Optimization, Dwarven Armor Proficiency, and Endurance.
Skills: Balance 19, Craft (stoneworking) 22, Spot 22
Possessions: +5 Adamantine Mountain Plate, +5 Extreme Steel Shield, Pink Ioun Stone, +6 Amulet of Health, +6 Belt of Strength, +5 Large Warhammer, Strongarm bracers, Mask of mental armor, Boots of teleportation, Dragonfang gauntlets, Helm of glorious recovery, +4 Ring of protection, Ring of water breathing, +5 Cloak of resistance, and Bag of holding type II
Maneuvers and Stances:

Summary: He is a standard tank, although slower than normal, that used CC with terrain and such to protect the group. He may not hit the hardest but he can take some hits and keep going.


I didn't go and get maneuvers and stances he knows 8 and readies 4, with 1 stance. I just feel lazy. But this is what I'd consider medium OP, he's not doing any cheese to have a AC of 90 and share 17 of that with his allies, etc. etc. etc.

[Tim Proctor]

So here is the 2nd one, will get a spell caster and an assassin type done shortly.



Name: Mort, Servant of Torm
Race/Class: LG Human Paladin 7, Divine Crusader 10
Init: +2
Sense: Darkvision 60 ft.
Languages: Common,
AC: 32
HP: (7d10,10d8) 92
Resist: Resistance to acid and electricity 10, damage reduction 10/magic
Fort 21 Ref 14 Will 22
Speed: 30 ft.
BAB: 14 Grapple: 17
Melee: +23/18/13 2d6+10
Ranged: +18/13/8, 1d8+6
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 28
SA/SQ: Aura of good, Aura of law, detect evil, smite evil 2/day, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount, remove disease 1/week, Perfect self.
Feats: Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Power Attack, Leap Attack, Divine Might, Augment Healing, Holy Potency, and Imbued Healing.
Skills: Concentration 20, Handle Animal 11, Heal 11, Jump 12, Knowledge (religion) 21, Ride 21.
Possessions: +5 Adamantine Greatsword, +5 Mithral Full Plate, +4 Composite shortbow (+2), Armband of Maximized healing, Ring of Mystic Healing, Crystal mask of mindarmor, Dimension stride boots, Glove of storing, Circlet of rapid casting, ring of protection +3, Cloak of Charisma +6, Amulet of natural armor +4, Belt of battle.
Spells: Cure Light Wounds 5/day, Cure Moderate Wounds 5/day, Cure Serious Wounds 5/day, Cure Critical Wounds 5/day, Cure Light Wounds, Mass 4/day, Heal 4/day, Regenerate 3/day, Cure Critical Wounds, Mass 3/day, Heal, Mass 1/day
Mount: He has one, didn't stat it out.
Summary:
Classic healer and he can power attack for some decent damage if needed.

[Tim Proctor]

So here is the 3rd one, will get the assassin type done shortly.



Name: Sir Spellsalot
Race/Class: Divine Nature Bard 4, Sorcerer 4, Mystic Theurge 9
Init: -1
Sense: normal
Languages: Common,
AC: 25
HP: (4d6,13d4+34) 79
Resist:
Fort 5 Ref 8 Will 14
Speed: 30 ft
BAB: 9 Grapple: ,
Melee: +10/+5 1d6+1
Ranged: spells
Str 8 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 16 Cha 28
SA/SQ: Bardic music, countersong, fascinate, nature sense, wild empathy, resist nature’s lure.
Feats: Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Still Spell, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, and Enlarge Spell.
Skills: Bluff 4, Concentration 20, Knowledge (arcana) 20, Knowledge (dungeoneering, local, religion, nature, planes) 7, Perform 7, Sleight of hand 7, Spellcraft 20, Use Magic Device 20.
Possessions: Bracers of armor +7, Amulet of natural armor +5, Boots of teleportation, Cloak of Charisma +6, Headband of intellect +6, Amulet of health +6, Ring of Protection +4, Rod of Thunder and Lightning.
Spells:
Bard 0 - 3/day, 1 - 6/day, 2 - 5/day, 3 - 5/day, 4 - 4/day, 5 - 2/day
Spells known:
0 - Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation. 1 - detect evil, protection from evil, Hideous Laughter, Identify. 2 - consecrate, Glitterdust, Locate Object, Whispering Wind. 3 - magic circle against evil, prayer, Invisibility Sphere, Summon Monster III. 4 - remove disease, speak with dead, sending, Dimension Door. 5 - divination, restoration.
Sorcerer 0 - 6/day, 1 - 9/day, 2 - 16/day, 3 - 8/day, 4 - 8/day, 5 - 8/day, 6 - 5/day.
Spells known:
0 - Prestidigitation, Message, Ghost Sound, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Resistance, Acid Splash, Disrupt Undead. 1 - Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Floating Disk, Feather Fall, Enlarge Person. 2 - Alter Self, Bear’s Endurance, Bull’s Strength, Rope Trick, False Life. 3 - Nondetection, Phantom Steed, Fireball, Fly. 4 - Summon Monster IV, Scrying, Ice Storm, Polymorph. 5 - Planar Binding, Lesser, Teleport, Cone of Cold. 6 - Antimagic Field, Disintegrate.
Familiar:
Raven - not stated out.
Animal Companion:
Raven - not stated out.
Summary:
A balanced not broken theurge.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Umm... a Bard/Sorcerer/MT is considered 'mid op' these days? Wow. I mean, I'd have figured at least Wizard5/Loremaster10/Archmage3 with no metacheese. That's just going pure Core.

He has only 6th level spells as a level 18 character. That's... pretty bad. And the fact that most of his feats are metamagic, but he has zero metamagic reducers means 99% of his metamagic feats are worthless because he doesn't have the higher level spell slots to spend on them. Furthermore, he's picked some of the worst metamagic feats in the game (Maximize? Really?).

I would love to be able to participate, but at the moment, I can't think of a good story or build fitting the theme that hasn't been Done To Death with an anticipated ZERO in creativity.

[Tim Proctor]

Umm... a Bard/Sorcerer/MT is considered 'mid op' these days? Wow. I mean, I'd have figured at least Wizard5/Loremaster10/Archmage3 with no metacheese. That's just going pure Core.

He has only 6th level spells as a level 18 character. That's... pretty bad. And the fact that most of his feats are metamagic, but he has zero metamagic reducers means 99% of his metamagic feats are worthless because he doesn't have the higher level spell slots to spend on them. Furthermore, he's picked some of the worst metamagic feats in the game (Maximize? Really?).

I would love to be able to participate, but at the moment, I can't think of a good story or build fitting the theme that hasn't been Done To Death with an anticipated ZERO in creativity.

I think so, its not about if he can blast his way through something (he does decent damage) or if he can persistent polymorph into X shape, but spells generally are the bane of a DM. They can ruin so many things, you have an encounter they have a spell. So I wanted to be extremely conservative with it and make sure that the spellcaster wasn't going to outshine any of the others and wasn't going to ruin the adventure. The contestants still have some serious stuff to worry about Teleporting, Planar Binding, Polymorphing, Anti-magic fields, Disintegration, Scrying, Rope Trick, etc. etc.

[Ziegander]

I think so, its not about if he can blast his way through something (he does decent damage) or if he can persistent polymorph into X shape, but spells generally are the bane of a DM. They can ruin so many things, you have an encounter they have a spell. So I wanted to be extremely conservative with it and make sure that the spellcaster wasn't going to outshine any of the others and wasn't going to ruin the adventure. The contestants still have some serious stuff to worry about Teleporting, Planar Binding, Polymorphing, Anti-magic fields, Disintegration, Scrying, Rope Trick, etc. etc.

I would absolutely say that all of the characters fall pretty short of what I would consider "mid-op," but Spellsalot isn't the worst offender (it's actually definitely the strongest, most versatile member of the group). I would consider mid-op to make sure all of their basic numbers are covered to a reasonable degree and then make intelligent, non-exploitative build choices. The basic numbers on these characters seem to be low (aside from AC and HP on the tank) and a Paladin into Divine Champion (Healing) is a poor choice that a mid-optimizing player would avoid, I'd think, while a tank that struggles to hit or hit hard (or even move), other capabilities notwithstanding, also seems poor. The feat choices for Spellsalot are very much terrible, low, low-op choices.

[Tim Proctor]

So here is the last one.



Name: Sneaky McSneakerston
Race/Class: Human Rogue 13, Exemplar 1, Fighter (SA variant) 3
Init: +21
Sense: normal
Languages: all
AC: 26
HP: (13d6,1d8,3d10) 70
Resist:
Fort 5 Ref 16 Will 5
Speed: 30 ft
BAB: 12 Grapple: 12
Melee: 27/22/17 1d6+9 (11d6)
Ranged: 26/21/16 1d6+8 (11d6)
Str 11 Dex 22 Con 10 Int 28 Wis 10 Cha 10
SA/SQ: Sneak Attack 9d6, trapfinding, evasion, trap sense +4, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, Skill Mastery -taken twice from rogue once from exemplar (Balance, Bluff, Climb, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana, architecture, dungeoneering, geography, history, local, nature, nobility, religion, the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope), Skill Artistry,
Feats: Education (arcana, local), Knowledge Devotion (added into stats above), Skill Focus (UMD), Quick Reconnoiter, Improved Initiative, Darkstalker, and Weapon Finesse.
Skills: Balance 23, Climb 19, Decipher Script 10, Diplomacy 6, Disable Device 14, Escape Artist 23, Gather Information 17, Hide 23, Jump 23, Knowledge (arcana 9, dungeoneering 11, local 9, nature 11, religion 11, the planes 11), Listen 23, Move Silently 23, Open Lock 16, Search 23, Spot 23, Tumble 9, Use Magic Device 12.
Skill Tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Clarity of Vision, Collector of Stories, Escape Attack, Mosquito's Bite, Opening Tap, Spot the Weak Point, and Walk the Walls.
Possessions: Headband of Intellect +6, of Deadly Precision +1, +4 Shortsword of Deathstrike, +2 Eager Shortbow of Deathstrike Warning, Belt of battle, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Shadow veil, Ring of Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor +4, Ring of Blinking, Dimension Stride Boots, Crystal mask of insight, Mantle of the predator, a large number of wands.
Summary:
A no fails kinda guy, everything he does is a success, really good rouge, scout spots everything automatically, etc.


While they may not be everyone's determination of mid-op, that is the exact reason we're doing them is so that all the judges are basing them on the same characters. I would say to assume that the players are intelligent enough to know how to use these characters well.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Not to be a pain, but I would argue for Darkstalker somewhere in that Rogue build.

It's not a bonus, it's a near necessity considering how many monsters have special senses in the Core Books alone.

[Tim Proctor]

Not to be a pain, but I would argue for Darkstalker somewhere in that Rogue build.

It's not a bonus, it's a near necessity considering how many monsters have special senses in the Core Books alone.

Okay, I added it in.

[AMFV]

So we are aiming for this party's level of optimization, which we would mostly agree is low, correct?

[Tim Proctor]

So we are aiming for this party's level of optimization, which we would mostly agree is low, correct?

Yes, regardless of terminology that is the party that the adventure needs to be made for.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I.... may have to power down my creature/encounter a wee little bit. :smallredface:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I.... may have to power down my creature/encounter a wee little bit. :smallredface:

Yea. I had to yank my build waaaaay back when I saw this. Nobody has any immunities or any way of getting any immunities. No one even has any way of getting mind control repressed. I'm going to have to re-think my basic strategy to avoid roflstomping by accident.

[OMG PONIES]

I.... may have to power down my creature/encounter a wee little bit. :smallredface:

Since when does the end of the world care about being CR-appropriate? :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Since when does the end of the world care about being CR-appropriate? :smallamused:

Eh, it's no fun if the good guy lose because they are hopelessly outmatched, just like a Gary Stu is no fun to read about. Which is why both Ed Greenwood and H.P.Lovecraft are two of my least favorite authors.

If you want to provide an entertaining challenge, you need to meter your might to your players power.

[OMG PONIES]

Eh, it's no fun if the good guy lose because they are hopelessly outmatched, just like a Gary Stu is no fun to read about. Which is why both Ed Greenwood and H.P.Lovecraft are two of my least favorite authors.

If you want to provide an entertaining challenge, you need to meter your might to your players power.

Normally, I agree wholeheartedly. But when we're talking about Elder Evils, we're veering more into that Lovecraftian territory. Stories about defeating a big baddie might be about monitoring resources and sound tactical decisions, but stories about preventing the apocalypse often involve more than skill. Theirs are the tales of sheer luck, divine intervention, or the like.

Granted, for purposes of this competition I agree that we should reign it in a bit :smalltongue:.

[AMFV]

Yea. I had to yank my build waaaaay back when I saw this. Nobody has any immunities or any way of getting any immunities. No one even has any way of getting mind control repressed. I'm going to have to re-think my basic strategy to avoid roflstomping by accident.

Yep, it's pretty frustrating to have a party where the healer is worse than a single classed healer would be. This adventure will probably wind up being around WOTC level of standard optimization, which is considerably frustrating.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Since when does the end of the world care about being CR-appropriate? :smallamused:

I'm betting that the Power part of our scores will be directly related to how bad we (could) curbstomp the party. A good score would be a hard challenge for the party, but it could go either way.

A bad score, of course would then be either way too easy (like an unclassed Goblin for a ECL8 BBEG) or, like has been said, a roflstomp.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another question to the Chairman:

Are we to take building your Evil Lair(tm) into consideration for the challenge? For example, by the time you get up to mid-high level, I generally assume that the BBEG has some kind of permanencied Forbiddance and some basic base protections to prevent port n pwn or summon-spam/Planar Binding shenanigans. Most of these are put into place well before the actual encounter, and generally are either permanent or renewed whenever the time lapses.

The other question is this: If the BBEG has sufficient divination to know the party is going to be showing up (considering the only defense against divination they have is Nondetection, which isn't that good), is he allowed to prepare for the encounter ahead of time or attempt to set an ambush?

Also, the party has no means of obtaining Flight. This is a fairly major problem as a single 3rd level spell can shut down their ability to affect him.

The party also does not have anyway of detecting invisible threats. In fact, they are completely reliant on mundane vision for all their detection needs.

[Tim Proctor]

Are we to take building your Evil Lair(tm) into consideration for the challenge? For example, by the time you get up to mid-high level, I generally assume that the BBEG has some kind of permanencied Forbiddance and some basic base protections to prevent port n pwn or summon-spam/Planar Binding shenanigans. Most of these are put into place well before the actual encounter, and generally are either permanent or renewed whenever the time lapses.
Sure, however, nothing requires there to be an fortress or any sorts, the EE could be traveling to the plane that the group is on and in that situation they would have time to prepare. In making an adventure the only limits are your imagination, and this is your adventure not mine.


The other question is this: If the BBEG has sufficient divination to know the party is going to be showing up (considering the only defense against divination they have is Nondetection, which isn't that good), is he allowed to prepare for the encounter ahead of time or attempt to set an ambush?
That is entirely up to you as per above. You are crafting the adventure, this group of characters was only made because the term 'medium op' can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.


Also, the party has no means of obtaining Flight. This is a fairly major problem as a single 3rd level spell can shut down their ability to affect him.
Sneaky McSneakerston has a large number of wands and fly is a 3rd level spell you could probably expect the party to have a wand of fly. Sir Spellsalot can cast Fly 8/day as well as Phantasmal Steed which would be a flying steed, floating disk, etc. Plus there are a number of other teleportation, passwall, and other avenues that they have at their disposal.


The party also does not have anyway of detecting invisible threats. In fact, they are completely reliant on mundane vision for all their detection needs.
Sneaky McSneakerston has Clarity of Vision were as a swift action each round he can detect invisible within 30ft at DC 20 which he cannot get lower than, auto-detects. Furthermore he has quick recon which allows him to make spot and listen checks for free every round meaning that anything less than a 53 or be automatically noticed not to mention the listen method. Furthermore there is detect magic, detect good, glitterdust, anti-magic field, etc. and I'm sure I can find a few others.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sure, however, nothing requires there to be an fortress or any sorts, the EE could be traveling to the plane that the group is on and in that situation they would have time to prepare. In making an adventure the only limits are your imagination, and this is your adventure not mine.

That is entirely up to you as per above. You are crafting the adventure, this group of characters was only made because the term 'medium op' can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.


I'll be the first to admit, I'm not too sure what you're asking for as the 'adventure'. Do you just mean the scenario of versus the EE (in this case), or are we talking full write-ups like the final few pages of each of the EE entries?

[Tim Proctor]

It can be a full write up like one of the end adventures in the EE, or a write up like any of the other shorter adventures found in a number of books, or in another format that makes sense. As long as a person can read it and know that its an adventure and navigate through it after a read through and being able to reference it.

Edit: BTW I was looking at the original post and I stated 'medium powered' not medium over-powered, this was never meant to be an over-powered setting. I blame Kuulvheysoon for being the originator of the 'op' characteristics.

[OMG PONIES]

A bad score, of course would then be either way too easy (like an unclassed Goblin for a ECL8 BBEG) or, like has been said, a roflstomp.

Some of it depends on whether or not your party's a group of numbskulls, too...I once had a party wind up with a TPK because their solution to dealing with a commoner pickpocket in a 15 x 15 room was multiple castings of Fireball :smallannoyed:. An unclassed goblin could have been their Everest. Different strokes, I suppose.


Sneaky McSneakerston has Clarity of Vision were as a swift action each round he can detect invisible within 30ft at DC 20 which he cannot get lower than, auto-detects. Furthermore he has quick recon which allows him to make spot and listen checks for free every round meaning that anything less than a 53 or be automatically noticed not to mention the listen method. Furthermore there is detect magic, detect good, glitterdust, anti-magic field, etc. and I'm sure I can find a few others.

Please keep in mind that, as a skill trick, Clarity of Vision is usable 1/encounter without abilities that make it available more often.


Edit: BTW I was looking at the original post and I stated 'medium powered' not medium over-powered, this was never meant to be an over-powered setting. I blame Kuulvheysoon for being the originator of the 'op' characteristics.

Perhaps instead of assigning blame we need to clarify terms. What Kuul means by "op" is not "over-powered," but "optimization." Therefore, a character built using medium optimization won't necessarily be overpowered, but they won't be dramatically underpowered, either.

To those discussing the sample party and the fact that they're pretty "low-op," I would make a note that the valley between mid and high op is a wide one. Most WotC characters are mid-op. They're definitely not making the best use of resources, but that doesn't mean they're spinning around in a corner somewhere either.

[Ziegander]

Most WotC characters are mid-op. They're definitely not making the best use of resources, but that doesn't mean they're spinning around in a corner somewhere either.

I would totally disagree with this statement, and say that most WotC characters are very low-op. Only some spellcasting characters built by WotC would be what I consider medium-op. Everything else is, as you say, spinning around in a corner. I feel like WotC's melee and/or skill/scout characters are borderline non-functional a large percentage of the time (though, I've never played a WotC build, so I have no real data to back that up).

[AMFV]

I would totally disagree with this statement, and say that most WotC characters are very low-op. Only some spellcasting characters built by WotC would be what I consider medium-op. Everything else is, as you say, spinning around in a corner. I feel like WotC's melee and/or skill/scout characters are borderline non-functional a large percentage of the time (though, I've never played a WotC build, so I have no real data to back that up).

Furthermore, WoTC's characters are usually at least fairly focused. In this case we have a healer who can't heal status conditions (that's worse than a single classed healer), a wizard who can only cast 6th level spells, which are by definition less than half as powerful as ninth level spells. The fighter is fairly passable, although terrible compared to a single classed Warblade, the rogue is just generally bad (not really all that great at sneaking, that sort of thing).

I'm not objecting to the party, but by almost all definitions they are very very low OP for a 17th level party.

[OMG PONIES]

I would totally disagree with this statement, and say that most WotC characters are very low-op. Only some spellcasting characters built by WotC would be what I consider medium-op. Everything else is, as you say, spinning around in a corner. I feel like WotC's melee and/or skill/scout characters are borderline non-functional a large percentage of the time (though, I've never played a WotC build, so I have no real data to back that up).

As someone who has been handed sample characters on many occasions at many tables, I can tell you that they are definitely functional. Granted, it becomes more about how you use your resources rather than picking uber ones. For instance, in the absence of Darkstalker I once had a rogue pick up some cuts of meat from the local butcher and toss them around so the guard's dogs were more focused on the scent of the meat than the scent of the thief.

When a character of that caliber starts to become non-functional is when they're presented alongside a party of a greatly differing optimization level. Sure, a sample rogue in a party of properly optimized characters will be outshined. However, an incantatrix in a party of sample characters would also throw off the power balance. What we have here is a party of characters at a lower optimization scale than what we as optimizers are used to. We should adjust accordingly.

Though I must ask, Tim: can you provide us some insight into your process in creating characters that are med-op from many books instead of just sticking to barebones characters from Core?

[Tim Proctor]

I grabbed old character sheets from players that I had that were close to the level and fit the archtype. I change/added a few things to get them close to WotC standard power level. Like I said it isn't a big deal about where in the spectrum they fall, that is all terminology and they were only made to create a standard for measurement.

I still blame Kuulvheysoon, he is the source of all my problems.:smallsmile:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Perhaps instead of assigning blame we need to clarify terms. What Kuul means by "op" is not "over-powered," but "optimization." Therefore, a character built using medium optimization won't necessarily be overpowered, but they won't be dramatically underpowered, either.

To those discussing the sample party and the fact that they're pretty "low-op," I would make a note that the valley between mid and high op is a wide one. Most WotC characters are mid-op. They're definitely not making the best use of resources, but that doesn't mean they're spinning around in a corner somewhere either.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion; that's exactly what I meant.

as for the power level of the party... that's what my theory for Power is based around how difficult is is for this specific party.

I still blame Kuulvheysoon, he is the source of all my problems.:smallsmile:I am a bit of a troublemaker, don't'cha know.:smalltongue:

[Tim Proctor]

3-days left, please make sure to get the submissions in before the deadline. :)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just polishing up the encounter. Trying to fit everything in in a way that makes sense.

[Kazyan]

Oh crap, the deadline is soon, isn't it.

I might not make it, because vacation got in the way, but I'll try to get this done in time. I don't have a lot of distractions until the 25th anyway.

[Vincent Dragon]

No love for this?

[Tim Proctor]

No love for this?

Nope, not a single entry.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah... I had everything done except connecting the various pieces. After the deadline passed, I just sort of.... gave up.:smallsigh:

Maybe start with a lower ECL and build our way back up to EEs?