What happens if all skills are class skill for everyone? [3.5]

[hymer]

And by that I mean if you make all skills class skills for all classes.
A thought experiment for now. Who would be peeved, and who would be elated? Why? What bad things would happen to the game? What good things?
Please voice opinions, thoughts, experience, etc.
Edit: Clarified it a bit, I hope.

[Beardbarian]

Bad things?
Every single class will put every single point in Diplomacy and UMD
If this isn't a little game breaking...
And the Factotum loses all his coolness

In a marine based campaign i've tried with Swim as a class skill for everyone and that wasn't broken at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

Most PrCs become a lot easier to qualify for. Every melee fighter takes ranks in Iaijutsu Focus just on the off-chance they'll get to use it (what else would they spend their skill points on, anyway?). Everyone can use any magic item because everyone also maxed out their UMD ranks.

The Expert cries itself to sleep.

[A Tad Insane]

Everyone would have craft(basketweaving), which would allow monks to compete with wizards

[ryu]

The only people to be really peeved would be the ones who got literally most of their utility out of skills. Read rogues, other skillmonkies, some bard builds, and perhaps some factotums and warlocks. Pretty much everyone else is getting pure benefit. For example my wizard builds have a slightly easier time teaching the familiar to use wands for double the spells per turn at low levels. Clerics get an even easier time with skill checks for the various knowledge skills. Fighters actually get spot and listen now.

[hymer]

Bad things?
Every single class will put every single point in Diplomacy and UMD

I doubt that. Apart from the cap on ranks, not every rogue and bard is a cheesed out diplomancer. :smallsmile:
But your point is taken. The stronger options would become open to everyone, indeed.


And the Factotum loses all his coolness

Skill-monkeys will have good reason to cry, absolutely.


In a marine based campaign i've tried with Swim as a class skill for everyone and that wasn't broken at all.

Thanks for the input!


Most PrCs become a lot easier to qualify for.

Excellent point, thanks!


Every melee fighter takes ranks in Iaijutsu Focus just on the off-chance they'll get to use it (what else would they spend their skill points on, anyway?). Everyone can use any magic item because everyone also maxed out their UMD ranks.

They could spend them on spot, listen, sense motive, knowledges, perhaps? It's a common complaint that fighters are not versatile enough.
But yes, certain skills will se more use. Still, one guy in the party with max'ed UMD should be about enough, shouldn't it?


The Expert cries itself to sleep.

Indeed. But if they go adventuring, they probably do so already.


Everyone would have craft(basketweaving), which would allow monks to compete with wizards

There's a class that doesn't have Craft on the skill list?

@ ryu: Good point. Tier1s are not generally primo skill users, and would benefit from from such a change. That's perhaps the greater problem here, though competing heavily with the usual skill monkeys' loss of territory.

[Sir Chuckles]

But yes, certain skills will se more use. Still, one guy in the party with max'ed UMD should be about enough, shouldn't it?

You silly, silly man.
Why have one guy spamming fireballs when you could then have everyone spamming fireballs?
Or Mass Cure Critical Wounds.
Or Ice Assassin.
Or Finger of Death.

[Invader]

I think most of the big points have been hit on already but it would also throw off a lot of social encounters if all NPC's had access to every skill. Sometimes encounters are based off the fact that the people the PRC's are dealing with don't likely have access to certain skills.

[hymer]

@ Sir_Chuckles: In that case, everyone should just play a wizard, no? And they don't; so it's fair to assume they would not all make the same skill choices because it was possible.

@ Invader: That is a point. Still, the players won't know the build of most NPCs they meet, and as such should be careful with assuming too much about what skills that character has.
Edit: Good point on the one below this one. I wish I'd been that pedantic, but I must be getting tired. :smallbiggrin:

[Invader]

You silly, silly man.
Why have one guy spamming fireballs when you could then have everyone spamming fireballs?
Or Mass Cure Critical Wounds.
Or Ice Assassin.
Or Finger of Death.

Because you can only have 1 of those 4 spells in a wand :smallbiggrin:

[ryu]

What you don't seem to realize OP is that just because the tier 1 classes get noticeable benefits doesn't mean this isn't a net change on their relative power that helps the little guys. I get to teach the familiar how to do this thing I want it to do with less work and maybe one level earlier. Big whoopity do. The fighter? He gained the ability to PHYSICALLY SEE AND HEAR THINGS. I mean I already pretty much had that granted, but I think you can understand the difference in value of everyone else getting UMD as opposed to the wizard who literally only wanted it for his familiar.

[hymer]

@ ryu: I wasn't thinking "Here's a reason to throw this idea out", merely "Here's something that could use tweaking if this is to be made into gameplay." Thanks, though.
Oh, and you can make listen and spot checks untrained, you know. :smallwink: But I agree, fighters really ought to be able to serve as lookouts (and let's not mention archers without Spot).

[Randomguy]

It'll make forgery easier to spot and use, since everyone has foregery now.

[ryu]

Why bother tweaking? It's a minor benefit to the wizard that not every wizard player will think to capitalize on. For the wizard who actually notices the benefit and uses it? Not much changed. For the guy who didn't? He's still plenty powerful. All the tweak would do is make the rule more complex and bring questions of verisimilitude in for why certain skills are inherently harder to learn, or why this rule doesn't apply the same to some classes. I mean I'm not saying these aren't things you can address. I'm just saying that I don't think it's worth the extra tweaking effort.

Random: That was never the problem with forgery. The problem with forgery was that no one ever bothers to think of taking forgery. It's just like how no one manages to expect a certain foreign inquisition.

[Captnq]

Because you can only have 1 of those 4 spells in a wand :smallbiggrin:

Staff. Scroll. Tiny Animal Skull. I can cast all sorts of things with UMD.

Here's what happens:

Everyone takes: UMD, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive (Assuming you find protecting yourself against other people's skills to be important.)

After that, they either branch out into Offensive skills like Hide, Move Silent, Bluff, diplo or move to knowledge skills, like Spellcraft and knowledge arcane

Then you'll get Jumping, Maybe climbing or something. Maybe Concentration or something for some who feel they need it.

And PrCs just got a whole lot easier to pay the skill tax for.

[Invader]

Staff. Scroll. Tiny Animal Skull. I can cast all sorts of things with UMD.

Here's what happens:

Everyone takes: UMD, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive (Assuming you find protecting yourself against other people's skills to be important.)

After that, they either branch out into Offensive skills like Hide, Move Silent, Bluff, diplo or move to knowledge skills, like Spellcraft and knowledge arcane

Then you'll get Jumping, Maybe climbing or something. Maybe Concentration or something for some who feel they need it.

And PrCs just got a whole lot easier to pay the skill tax for.

It was a joke dude :smalleek:

[Keneth]

You basically get Pathfinder minus the bonus for being trained in a skill. Now condense the skills and nerf social skills, and you might actually get a working skill system.

[Metahuman1]

Factotum still has goodness from SLA's, being able to cash in turn undead attempts on devotion feats and his general Int SADness and his ability to have extra actions.

The Rogue and other skill monkey's are happy cause now, they can buy any skill, and there are no shortage of awesome skills they can invest in.

[ryu]

Factotum still has goodness from SLA's, being able to cash in turn undead attempts on devotion feats and his general Int SADness and his ability to have extra actions.

The Rogue and other skill monkey's are happy cause now, they can buy any skill, and there are no shortage of awesome skills they can invest in.

No the pure skill monkeys are still sad. Why? Literally anyone can do what their main focus in existence was, and wizards better on a pure skill point level due to pure int focus over having to also worry so much over strength and dexterity. Don't get me wrong. Wizards still like dex. It's just REALLY not strictly necessary by any stretch of the imagination.

[Keneth]

and wizards better on a pure skill point level due to pure int focus

Do what I did: Remove Int bonus from the equation. It never made much sense for Int bonus to give you extra skills anyway. Not that there isn't a small correlation, but I've met plenty of multitalented people who are far less intelligent than I am.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My group actually does this, and it works out quite well, though there are a few differences:

UMD and Iaijutsu Focus are still cross-class for anyone that wouldn't normally get them as class skills.

Diplomacy is never actually used, everything is role played instead.

Every class that would normally get fewer than four base skill points per level now gets four base skill points per level.

Monsters are modified accordingly. Most creatures that normally get two base skill points per HD gain max ranks in two skills such as Spot, Listen, or Hide. Most monsters also have their feats and skills switched to more useful choices.

[ryu]

Do what I did: Remove Int bonus from the equation. It never made much sense for Int bonus to give you extra skills anyway. Not that there isn't a small correlation, but I've met plenty of multitalented people who are far less intelligent than I am.

It works, except for the undeniable fact that being more intelligent is directly correlated with being more able to become more knowledgeable faster by definition of what that term means. High int means far more than just a static bonus to knowledges too. Now don't get me wrong it makes sense from a balance perspective. It just doesn't make actual sense unless you start making some incredibly complex nonsense wherein different skills cost different amounts based upon how good someone is with a particular ability score. Actually that's totally an interesting idea that should be experimented with. No static bonus to skills from abilities. It's just really REALLY easy for strong people to learn to climb, and swim, dextrous people to wiggle out of things, charismatic people to social skills aptitude, and so on. Now talent as factor of high stat is spread around to all stats, skills are easier to learn with no cross class penalty, and skills related to things you directly value are suddenly easy for even most mundane classes.

[Keneth]

It works, except for the undeniable fact that being more intelligent is directly correlated with being more able to become more knowledgeable faster by definition of what that term means.

Ah, but as you've noted yourself, it only reflects your propensity for acquiring knowledge, not actual skills. And it certainly doesn't reflect your talent.

I did actually try before to make the skill system dependent on all ability scores, and one that took talent and frequency of use into account, but it just ended up too bulky. So if it couldn't accurately represent reality, I'd rather it be dependent on no ability scores, than just the one that favors the most broken classes in the game. You want a system that's simple and robust, otherwise it ends up being bothersome, as 3.5 system most certainly is.

[ryu]

Ah, but as you've noted yourself, it only reflects your propensity for acquiring knowledge, not actual skills. And it certainly doesn't reflect your talent.

I did actually try before to make the skill system dependent on all ability scores, and one that took talent and frequency of use into account, but it just ended up too bulky. So if it couldn't accurately represent reality, I'd rather it be dependent on no ability scores, than just the one that favors the most broken classes in the game. You want a system that's simple and robust, otherwise it ends up being bothersome, as 3.5 system most certainly is.

How's this for simple: Instead of giving flat bonuses to specific skills all ability scores give bonus skill points per level which must be allocated to skills that used to gain bonuses from them. No skills are cross class skills, and everyone gets the same amount of extra skill points using the same point buy. You also don't really make remembering what you get extra points for hard because it's based on the previous system. All we've done with this idea is make skill acquisition more robust and less generally int centric.

[Keneth]

That still leaves you with tracking skill points from at least 7 different sources. Plus, it introduces new problems, like what to do with extra skill points when you run out of respective ability-based skills to invest in. It does solve a few issues though, so it wouldn't necessarily be a bad change.

[ryu]

That still leaves you with tracking skill points from at least 7 different sources. Plus, it introduces new problems, like what to do with extra skill points when you run out of respective ability-based skills to invest in. It does solve a few issues though, so it wouldn't necessarily be a bad change.

Couldn't you technically just make up professions if you ever hit that point? Further considering the most number of ability scores I've ever seen people actively increase long-term was three most of those would be things you could just write down. Also I'm pretty sure most of the ones that you did change leveling up involve non-skill calculations to consider ANYWAY am I right?

[AmberVael]

And the Factotum loses all his coolness
Hardly.

Yes, everyone now has all skills. But most people will still have very limited numbers of skill points. The real strength of the Factotum is not having every skill available to them- it's being able to use practically every one of those skills if they build right. They have naturally high skill points, both from intelligence (which they can strongly focus on) and their class chassis, so no one can really compete with them in number of skills. They have Brains Over Brawn, so they get a significant bonus on a number of skills. And then, most importantly, they get Cunning Knowledge.

Cunning Knowledge basically makes Factotum the Skill Wizard. Need a skill? They got a skill. So long as they have a single rank in a skill, they get to add their level to it once per day. For skills used rarely, it's effectively having a full rank in it. In other skills, it gives you a massive boost if you really must succeed or get a fantastic result.

No one competes with the Factotum on skills.

[Sir Chuckles]

@ Sir_Chuckles: In that case, everyone should just play a wizard, no? And they don't; so it's fair to assume they would not all make the same skill choices because it was possible.

But, people make class choices based off skills. You don't choose Fighter if you're going to be a Tumbler or party face. You choose Rogue or Belguiler.

If all classes got all skills, there would be no reason for a Min/Maxer to not always be a Wizard.

As much as it elevates lower tier classes, it further elevates the higher tier classes, who could further do anything.

What happens, you ask?
Mind-Controlling Wizards becoming far more dangerous and Barbarians who master Forgery and Decipher Script.

[ryu]

But, people make class choices based off skills. You don't choose Fighter if you're going to be a Tumbler or party face. You choose Rogue or Belguiler.

If all classes got all skills, there would be no reason for a Min/Maxer to not always be a Wizard.

As much as it elevates lower tier classes, it further elevates the higher tier classes, who could further do anything.

What happens, you ask?
Mind-Controlling Wizards becoming far more dangerous and Barbarians who master Forgery and Decipher Script.

Thing is this is still net positive in relative power for not tier one classes. The wizards and their ilk can ALREADY do literally anything. What are they going to do? Rule the world some more?:smallconfused:

[Keneth]

Couldn't you technically just make up professions if you ever hit that point?

I'm not talking about running out of all skills. I'm talking about getting 10 extra skill points from Strength, with there being only 2 or 3 Str-based skills (or however many there are in 3.5). Since you can only invest in those, the rest of the skill points are wasted. While that isn't technically a problem, it would mean that all averagely strong creatures or stronger are master climbers and swimmers. :smallbiggrin:

[lsfreak]

If all classes got all skills, there would be no reason for a Min/Maxer to not always be a Wizard.

That's already the case and people still play plenty of rangers, paladins, and warlocks :smallconfused: (And except maybe the ranger, they don't do it for the skill points).

If there are no class skills, I don't forsee any huge mechanics problems. Diplomancy and UMD are already game-shatteringly broken if used to their full extent, giving a few more people the option of doing it isn't going to break anything new. People also seem to be overlooking that you're still limited to a precious few skills; even high-Int skillmonkeys are going to be left with a lot of tough choices.

What it does do is remove a rather arbitrary limit on what characters can do, assuming Diplo/UMD are fixed so as not to be auto-ranks.

[georgie_leech]

I'm not talking about running out of all skills. I'm talking about getting 10 extra skill points from Strength, with there being only 2 or 3 Str-based skills (or however many there are in 3.5). Since you can only invest in those, the rest of the skill points are wasted. While that isn't technically a problem, it would mean that all averagely strong creatures or stronger are master climbers and swimmers. :smallbiggrin:

What if you let them use the extra skill points to buy regular skill points at, say, 1/4 value? Fluff it as natural talent letting them spend more time practising things they aren't good at.

[Scow2]

Ah, but as you've noted yourself, it only reflects your propensity for acquiring knowledge, not actual skills. And it certainly doesn't reflect your talent.
Actually, it does reflect your propensity for acquiring skills, not merely knowledge. A highly-intelligent person WILL pick up on new things much faster and readily (Even physical tasks!) than a less-intelligent person.

The problem with D&D 3.5 is that attribute bonuses are absolutely worthless on a mortal level.

[ryu]

I'm not talking about running out of all skills. I'm talking about getting 10 extra skill points from Strength, with there being only 2 or 3 Str-based skills (or however many there are in 3.5). Since you can only invest in those, the rest of the skill points are wasted. While that isn't technically a problem, it would mean that all averagely strong creatures or stronger are master climbers and swimmers. :smallbiggrin:

Okay OTHER new rule: Strength skills don't have any cap if you've hit what would be the cap in any of them. There. Done.

[erikun]

Wizards, Archivists, and to a lesser extent Warblades would absolutely love the change. Everyone with Spot, Listen, and Use Magic Device? Everyone picking up Diplomancy and Tumble? Indeed, it will be better to play a Wizard and use the INT-granted skill points for Diplomancy ranks than it is to play a Bard or Sorcerer and try to get the same use out of natural CHA bonuses.

As others have mentioned, playing any of the "skill monkeys" is a lot less interesting. Why play a Rogue with +1d6 damage in certain situations when you could play a Fighter and just wield a two-handed greatsword? Or even a Wizard and throw around damage spells?


I think that you're looking more at a change in optimization than anything distinctly broken being suddenly introduced with the change. The game already has the Factotum, Human Paragon, and Able Learner feat. It is already remarkably easy for any character to have access to any skill if they want; you're just going to see more characters (meaning, all) making use of it.

[Scow2]

As others have mentioned, playing any of the "skill monkeys" is a lot less interesting. Why play a Rogue with +1d6 damage in certain situations when you could play a Fighter and just wield a two-handed greatsword?

Theoretical access to an ability =/= Actual Access to an ability. The fighter may have all the skills available, but he still only has 2+Int skill points/level. He has more flexibility where he puts his skills, but even if he does take one or two tricks a Rogue usually has, he can't touch the other seven tricks that rogue has access to and can synergize. A fighter can sneak OR scout OR use magic items OR disable traps OR be socially acceptable OR dance around the battlefield. A Rogue can sneak AND scout AND use magic items AND disable traps AND be a party face AND dance around the battlefield.

The only 'problem' class is the Wizard, which actually doesn't care. He's still investing in the "Caster Tax" skills (Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledges, etc), but can now invest in things like Spot.

It wouldn't be a problem at all in Pathfinder - Traits already allow a character to pick up any class skills they need that otherwise aren't on the list.

[Curmudgeon]

The Rogue and other skill monkey's are happy cause now, they can buy any skill, and there are no shortage of awesome skills they can invest in.
Absolutely wrong. The Rogue, Scout, & c. are upset because their thunder is stolen; relative to other classes, the skill-focused classes suffer.

This reminds me of the old Russian joke:
A Witch is caught by a pair of neighboring farmers and offers to grant one wish to each of them in exchange for her freedom. The first farmer asks for two cows because his neighbor has a cow and he had none; the wish is granted. The second farmer wishes for both of the first farmer's cows to sicken and die.

[Scow2]

Absolutely wrong. The Rogue, Scout, & c. are upset because their thunder is stolen; relative to other classes, the skill-focused classes suffer.

Correction: Only the dumbest and most narrow-minded rogues/scouts/factotums are upset. Their thunder isn't stolen, because nobody else has the skill points to invest and combine as they do. Other classes likewise lack the class features required to amplify the skills in the same way an 'expert' class does.

[hymer]

What a wonderful thing to come back to. Thanks to all participants, especially those who engaged in debate without my being here.
Please do continue to voice your thoughts, I'll jump in again as occasion and need arises.

[The Grue]

Staff. Scroll. Tiny Animal Skull. I can cast all sorts of things with UMD.

Here's what happens:

Everyone takes: UMD, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive (Assuming you find protecting yourself against other people's skills to be important.)

After that, they either branch out into Offensive skills like Hide, Move Silent, Bluff, diplo or move to knowledge skills, like Spellcraft and knowledge arcane

Then you'll get Jumping, Maybe climbing or something. Maybe Concentration or something for some who feel they need it.

And PrCs just got a whole lot easier to pay the skill tax for.

Can someone explain to me how "all skills are class skills" equates to "all classes get arbitrarily large numbers of skill points every level"? I don't understand how suddenly everybody is dumping points into every skill ever. Above is no less than ten different skills before counting Knowledges; how many classes get 10+ skill points per level that don't already have a list of class skills as long as my arm?

[ericgrau]

Skill points help. So do class skills. Everyone still gets a lot of what used to be rogue exclusive. Actually class skills are far more important than skill points because max ranks do way more than being able to do 7 different things.

Better method: Stop calling for a skill check for every little thing. With many DMs you literally look at something and there's a skill check. Make everyone capable of the basics without any checks. And then make skill checks for the special things, and don't cry foul when there are special results. But use common sense and don't go into ultimate power outside of what the skill can do realistically (even among the most legendary figures), or you're forced to ban it and it's the same nerf in the end. Now skillmonkeys can actually do something.

A nice roleplaying exercise I've seen before was to play a campaign with spot, listen and search completely eliminated. Use verbal descriptions of what people see instead, and players verbally describe how they explore it. This will help keep you kick the habit of calling for checks for every little thing. While you're at it you may as well also take out diplomacy and bluff and also use your words. Skills need to be much less common, not more common. If every class needs skills just to get by, you need to reexamine your entire play style not give out more skills to all.

[lsfreak]

Use verbal descriptions of what people see instead, and players verbally describe how they explore it. ... While you're at it you may as well also take out diplomacy and bluff and also use your words.

One thing to keep in mind with this, though, is character knowledge versus player knowledge. A fighter doesn't have to state whether he's in Fool's Stance, Left Ox Stance, or Plow Stance, that he's making a Squinting Strike, Wrath Strike, or Crooked Strike, and so on. They just roll the dice after saying they're using their abilities. A skill character shouldn't be punished because they as players lack the knowledge to describe what their characters should know how to do, and the DM needs to be careful not to overdo requiring description over rolling skill checks. There's a difference between
"I roll Intimidate"
and
"I roll Sense Motive to see whether he seems like he'd be better threatened by roughing him up, describing what I could do with him, or threaten his family. Physical violence? Okay I'll Intimidate with that"
and
"He seems like he respects strength, not smarts. I go in for a handshake, but with my other hand I press a dagger point into his stomach."
It's great if they come up with the last, but if they don't they should have mechanical alternatives to fall back on.

[TheMeMan]

I actually use this as a houserule for my campaign, and frankly it's not that bad. To give a benefit to the ones with a ton of skills, I just give a bonus equal to 1/4 of their levels *in that class*, rounded down (Minimum one). It doesn't bork things at all really. The classes that have a bunch of calss skills tend to be the ones with a metric ton of skill points, whereas most others don't have *quite* as many or need to focus on other things to function as a class.

Really, it's not overpowering in the least, and only becomes a problem post level 10 or 15; but then again things go sideways anyway at that point with skills being the least offenders most of the time. There isn't really much that can be broken with high skills points in most any skill, unless the DM specifically allows it to occur.

The major offender being, however, Diplomacy, which in 3.5 is borked anyway. It's trivially easy according to RAW to have a third or fourth level Bard or Rogue diplomacy every single hostile character away. At level 10, they practically cannot fail at increasing the attitude according to raw of any character they meet.

Thus, such skills pretty much require heavy houseruling to deal with. And if delt with deftly, every player having easy access to diplomacy isn't that big of an issue at all. Nor is any other skill, really.