Little Help With an Under-Powered PC

[RolandDeschain]

Thanks in advance guys/gals. There's a member of my current playing group that is the older brother of one of my close friends. I've played several campaigns with the younger brother, but I don't real know the older brother at all. I know he is a very, very nice guy.

Long story short, there are some pretty serious power-gamers in our group, and this guy wants to play a Samurai/Kensai...ugh. I think he's in love with the idea because he likes the flavor and hasn't played enough to know how brokenly awful his build is.

How do I 'gently' nudge this fella in the right direction? I'm not terribly familiar with the ToB, and I know some of you are going to recommend things from that source. If you do, could you include a very brief breakdown of what specifically you're talking about.

Again, thanks in advance. I often just lurk on these forums, reading the threads and picking up wonderful info...

[Big Fau]

Show him a Warblade anyway, and consider it a learning experience. The Tiger Claw discipline emulates the Samurai's attempt at flavor, and Diamond Mind is also good for emulating characters like Kenshin Himura and other well-known Samurai characters (not just anime ones either).

It will seem overpowered at first, but it's just highly efficient at what it does at every level.

[JeminiZero]

Two important points:

1) You can have the Samurai title without any levels in the Samurai class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html). If the DM is fine with him having a Samurai title as part of his backstory, that might be able to fill his concept without him taking levels in a low tier class.

2) Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is available free!

[Vhaidara]

One idea (Especially if your DM/player goes for the "Samurai by title") might be to try and show him something cooler. ToB is where you would go for optimization, but I once played a Soulknife (Psionic class, uses a sword made of mental energy. Pretty much a Jedi) into Kensai, using my mind blade a my Kensai weapon.

It didn't hurt that it was in a low-magic setting and this build gives you a built in +15 weapon.

[Zombulian]

Honestly I'm fairly sure that even Fighter/Kensai would be better. The Samurai class isn't very good at making you a Samurai. It's really good at making you a terrifying warlord.

[gorfnab]

Is the OA Samurai an option? If so, you could do something like OA Samurai/ Warblade or Crusader/ Master Samurai. Still not OP but an improvement.

[Metahuman1]

There is a psi-warrior AFC that gives you a scaling weapon that you summon out of thin air. Look it up in the Minds eye articals form Wizards Of The Cost, and then show him that and some Psi-warrior powers he can take that can easily be fluffed as just being skilled at what he does.

Someone else, please give him a tome of battle mechanics break down for beginners since I think he needs it so he can steer his party member that way.

Beyond that, get a level or two in Warblade. Between those two things, he'll be fine.

[RolandDeschain]

Someone else, please give him a tome of battle mechanics break down for beginners since I think he needs it so he can steer his party member that way.


I kind of figured people would go to the ToB. It looks like I might have to invest in that book. I'm sure it's a good one to own anyway as much as it gets referenced here.

Can someone give me a quick breakdown of what "maneuvers" and "stances" are? I see them referenced all the time. How many classes are there in the ToB, and can someone do a quick(one sentence) synopsis of them?

Yikes, hate to sound so needy. Any help is greatly, greatly appreciated.

The advice so far has been great. I think this guy may have played a little bit years ago(not with our group) and probably assumes the Samurai is like the OA version.

[Phelix-Mu]

Maneuvers is a broadly defined term, but is usually paired against stances.

Stance: A long-term self-buff that is always active. You can change from one stance to another as a swift action, but you have a pretty small list of choices to pick from, and an even smaller number your character can actually know.

Maneuver: A special technique used in combat (usually). They usually improve an attack or grant a new form of attack, but there is good variety in actual effect. They renew per encounter, unlike spells, and each class can refresh them more often with special actions they can take (or a special mechanic).

Crusader: Heavy armoured tank that can lay down damage and heal self and allies, often in the same round. The refresh mechanic is that every round, a prepped maneuver is randomly available, then next round another maneuver is randomly chosen from those remaining, and so forth. Once all are expended, they all refresh, and the random selection process begins again. I may be slightly wrong on this point.

Warblade: Master of weapons, this combines an intelligent warrior with the ability to consistently deal effective damage in a variety of situations. Their refresh mechanic is the fastest, and reloads all prepped maneuvers in one flourish. Small number of maneuvers known, but full BAB and d12 HD, along with Int bonus to a few nice abilities.

Swordsage: Master of mystical blade magic, this is the most supernatural of the three. It gets the most maneuvers known and access to the most disciplines (like schools of magic), but has an awkward refresh mechanic that can be difficult to use in combat. Also, 3/4 BAB and smaller HD, but lots of skill points and a decent list.

I think that covers it. I am probably mega-ninja'd at this point.

EDIT: Yay! For the record, there are excellent handbooks out there for all of these classes. Worth the read if you are trying to make heads/tails of what is truly a not-well-written book.

[Metahuman1]

Ok.

Maneuvers are like spells, except for martial arts instead of magic.

You get them in levels, the exact same way a wizard or a cleric would there spells. You "Ready" them the way a caster would "prepare" his spells. You activate them using standard attack, full round attack, or swift actions, the way a caster would use those same actions to cast there spell.

The difference is that once a caster casts there spell, it's gone for the day, while once a Martial Adept uses a maneuver, it's only gone for the encounter, unless they employ a class feature all martial adept classes have called "recovery." which allows them to get spent maneuvers back during the same encounter.


Stances are a special sub sect of maneuvers. You activate them as a swift action, but they can be kept actie 24/7 and you can change form one to another with out having to first exit then enter. They usually provide a passive buff for your character. Things like help making jump checks, some minor extra Damage or AC, the ability to overcome difficult terrain, things like that.



There are three base classes in Tome of Battle, and a chunk of prestige classes.

The three base classes are Crusader, swordsage, and warblade.

Crusader, the tank that can actually tank, and a holy warrior who does the term holy warrior justice.

Swordsage, This is every mystical wuxia super natural super powered martial arts fantasy in one class.

Warblade, Hither came Conan, The Samurai, this class is ALL about finally giving badass normal Mundanes there due.






One other thing, when you take a level in one of those three base classes, you add half your total character level rounded down, + your levels in that Martial Adept base class too your "Initiator level" to determine what maneuvers you can know, and how many, and how many you can ready. Which makes the sub system the most multyclass friendly of all the 3.5 D&D sub systems.

Also, the Warblade and all the essential info to play one is free on WotC website. Someone likened too it above. Have him play that, or take 1 or 2 levels in the class and the rest in Psi-warrior with that AFC I suggested earlier in my post (AFC is free in another Wizards arcital and all the info for Psi-warrior is free in the SRD) and that should get him what he wants.

It would also let you Try Tome of Battle mechanics before buying them.

But yes, the book is well worth the investment.

[gorfnab]

Can someone give me a quick breakdown of what "maneuvers" and "stances" are? I see them referenced all the time. How many classes are there in the ToB, and can someone do a quick(one sentence) synopsis of them?

These should help:
Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146801)
Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181655) Handbooks (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0)
Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196531) Handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783)
Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968) Handbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4408.0)

[RolandDeschain]

Wow! Thanks guys.

This board is great. I'll try to get little brother to give big brother a "nudge". The 'helpful suggestions' will probably play better coming from him.

Love the activity on this board. Pose a question and get plenty of answers within a matter of minutes.

CHEERS!

[Sith_Happens]

Maneuvers in a lot of ways work similarly to spells or powers, but on a per-encounter rather than per-day basis.

Like spells or powers, they're divided into levels from 1 to 9, with access granted on odd character levels.
As you level up, you gain a certain number of maneuvers known (which can be of any level you have access to, like a Psion) and a smaller number of maneuvers readied. Higher-level maneuvers generally require you to know a certain number of other maneuvers from the same school (stances count for this purpose), but only to initially learn them, and you can trade a lower-level maneuver for a higher-level one at the levels that let you swap maneuvers known.
Changing your readied maneuvers takes five minutes, or one full-round action with the Adaptive Style feat. You cannot ready the same maneuver more than once.
Most maneuvers are either strikes (standard action, make a normal or modified attack, if it hits something special happens; some strikes are full-round actions and generally involve multiple attacks or moving), boosts (swift action, effects vary but often involve buffing your attacks for that turn), or counters (immediate action, mostly defensive abilities).
Once you use a maneuver, it is expended and cannot be used again. You get it back either when the fight is over, or as a result of one or your class features.
All maneuvers are extraordinary abilities unless noted otherwise.

Stances are permanent buffs of various sorts. You know a certain number of them depending on your level, and can change which one is active as a swift action. Learning them follows the same rules as for maneuvers (i.e.- level, prerequisites).

The book has three base classes (collectively referred to as "martial adept" or "initiator" classes), which are as follows:
Warblade. Full BAB, d12 hit dice, decent skills. Learns no supernatural maneuvers or stances, and all of the schools it has access too basically revolve around "I'm good at hitting things," except for White Raven which is "I can help my teammates hit things." Other class features include Uncanny Dodge and adding INT to various things. "Feels" a lot like a Fighter.
Swordsage. Medium BAB, d8 hit dice, good skills. Gains by far the most maneuvers known and readied but has the worst method of recovering them mid-battle. Also has access to the most schools, including two supernatural-heavy ones and a judo-based one. Other class features include Evasion and WIS-to-AC in light armor. "Feels" a lot like a Monk or Ninja.
Crusader. Full BAB, d10 hit dice, decent skills. The maneuvers it can learn are about an even spread between improving your own attacks and supporting your party in various ways. Includes a number of alignment-based maneuvers, and ones that let you heal yourself or a teammate when you hit something. Other class feature involve being really, really good at not dying, plus a Smite. "Feels" a lot like a Paladin.

EDIT: Your hopeful-samurai player will almost certainly gravitate towards Warblade, with a focus on the Diamond Mind ("My supreme focus, discipline, and precision allows me to do things that many swordsmen cannot") and Iron Heart ("I am very good at sword" in the purest sense).

EDIT 2: Kensai can actually pair fairly well with Warblade or Swordsage, especially since many Diamond Mind maneuvers already encourage maxing your Concentration check. The trick is that he'll want to mix in more base class levels with his Kensai levels to keep learning higher-level maneuvers.

[Phaederkiel]

the perhaps most important thing about stances:

they do not eat the slot of anything else, exept other stances.
The boni they give are most of the time something yo will not already have, so no bonus overlap occurs; they do not eat up your actions, unless you change your stance, they are always on, they do not eat ups spell slots or item slots.


they are great!

I would say that Diamond mind is the first go-to discipline (i have good experience with a DiaMind Swordsage refluffed Samurai myself, good damage, very flavorful one-cut kills), and white raven is the other.

White raven has a first level stance which ups the damage of all chargers by initator lvls. Which can be very good.

[Zombulian]

Factotum/Iaijutsu Master can be a great samurai build as well.

[rollforeigninit]

If the Kensai, bonded weapon is an issue just have him take Ancestral Relic. Almost the same thing.

[Xerlith]

There are fragments of Tome of Battle for free on the Wizards' webpage:
Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)
Mechanic description (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=1)