Monk HELP

[Bellberith]

Okay, i know a guy who want's to play a monk in a campaign i am in. And he needs some sort of way to get stronger (he is really weak).

BUT he doesn't want to take any magical/psionic class nor does he want holy stuff like vow of poverty.

Can somebody please help me with an optimized monk build to help this guy?


(we are level 5, at the moment we have a dread necromancer and a druid out-shining everyone.)

[Rubik]

Okay, i know a guy who want's to play a monk in a campaign i am in. And he needs some sort of way to get stronger (he is really weak).

BUT he doesn't want to take any magical/psionic class nor does he want holy stuff like vow of poverty.

Can somebody please help me with an optimized monk build to help this guy?


(we are level 5, at the moment we have a dread necromancer and a druid out-shining everyone.)This sounds like a job for WBL-mancy.

Observe. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

Yes, that's a level 20 build, but the moment he can start affording to stack items on his unarmed strikes is the moment he can start being awesome.

Also, have him buy several +1 morphing/sizing shurikens with different goodies on them for 1/50 the cost.

[eggynack]

You didn't specifically list unarmed swordsage as something that the player objects to, so... unarmed swordsage?

[ryu]

Okay, i know a guy who want's to play a monk in a campaign i am in. And he needs some sort of way to get stronger (he is really weak).

BUT he doesn't want to take any magical/psionic class nor does he want holy stuff like vow of poverty.

Can somebody please help me with an optimized monk build to help this guy?


(we are level 5, at the moment we have a dread necromancer and a druid out-shining everyone.)

Have you considered showing him unarmed swordsage? If he is against the idea of martial adept classes that use his same concept I would pretty much just recommend WBLmancy as the last guy said.

Edit: Swordsaged. Also coincidentally to boot. No it's not ironic.

[Bellberith]

No tome of battle =/

[ryu]

Well then... Again look at WBLmancy as your first responder pointed out.

[Bellberith]

That build uses both psionic/holy stuff (psywar and cleric) so i cannot use it. =/ this guy is really picky.

[Phelix-Mu]

You must describe how well these druid and dread-necro characters are statted out. Because, while we may put the monk character through his paces and raise him to be able to punch through iron doors, it will mean nothing if the druid is rashemi-SNAing engulfing earth elementals or the dread-necro has the zombie-bomb factory going on.

So, it's a matter of relativity. The monk can get much better than the current monk with work, but it can never get better than the best druid or tier 3 partial-list caster (arguably a very good monk will be as good as most tier 3 casters, but is likely not punching equal to the best of that august group).

That said, consider chucking a sparring dummy of the master into the next treasure haul. It's a very useful tool for a monk, and can be sold after being used, as the 10' step it grants is a permanent effect.

Finally, the DM should consider relaxing some of the RAW on monk or accepting homebrew (which is legion on this matter, and some of which puts the original monk design to shame).

Basic monk houserules often read like:

1.) Full BAB or Wis mod to attack and damage (in addition to Str).
2.) Wis mod to attack and damage instead of strength.
3.) Standard Action Flurry of Blows, or at least "monk may move up to 1/2 their movement as a swift action" (or both)
4.) Add Wis mod to all Str and Dex checks and Str and Dex-based skill checks

Alternately, I will beat the presses and suggest simply importing PF monk, which is available on the Pathfinder SRD.

[Rubik]

That build uses both psionic/holy stuff (psywar and cleric) so i cannot use it. =/ this guy is really picky.I only used those last three levels for the bonus feats they granted (and the Hammer power, but that's extraneous). They have nothing to do with using your wealth to its fullest.


That said, consider chucking a sparring dummy of the master into the next treasure haul. It's a very useful tool for a monk, and can be sold after being used, as the 10' step it grants is a permanent effect.I think you mean "sparring master of the dummy."

[Gray Mage]

How do he and your DM feel about homebrew?

[Prime32]

BUT he doesn't want to take any magical/psionic class

That build uses both psionic/holy stuff (psywar and cleric) so i cannot use it. =/ this guy is really picky.So he's picking a class that can teleport and travel between dimensions (monk) over one that can focus its inner power for increased strength and insight (psychic warrior)? :smallconfused:

Anyway, see if you find anything useful here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10747).

[Bellberith]

You must describe how well these druid and dread-necro characters are statted out. Because, while we may put the monk character through his paces and raise him to be able to punch through iron doors, it will mean nothing if the druid is rashemi-SNAing engulfing earth elementals or the dread-necro has the zombie-bomb factory going on.

So, it's a matter of relativity. The monk can get much better than the current monk with work, but it can never get better than the best druid or tier 3 partial-list caster (arguably a very good monk will be as good as most tier 3 casters, but is likely not punching equal to the best of that august group).

That said, consider chucking a sparring dummy of the master into the next treasure haul. It's a very useful tool for a monk, and can be sold after being used, as the 10' step it grants is a permanent effect.

Finally, the DM should consider relaxing some of the RAW on monk or accepting homebrew (which is legion on this matter, and some of which puts the original monk design to shame).

Basic monk houserules often read like:

1.) Full BAB or Wis mod to attack and damage (in addition to Str).
2.) Wis mod to attack and damage instead of strength.
3.) Standard Action Flurry of Blows, or at least "monk may move up to 1/2 their movement as a swift action" (or both)
4.) Add Wis mod to all Str and Dex checks and Str and Dex-based skill checks

Alternately, I will beat the presses and suggest simply importing PF monk, which is available on the Pathfinder SRD.


I think we are going to use some of these houserules along with Rubik's guide to try and bring things up to par. If he gets too strong we can always scale it.

(The Dread Necro acts more like a spellsword. He uses spell-storing + smiting spell + arcane channeling from duskblade to release 3spells in 1 attack dealing massive damage with maximized inflict spells through "master of day and night" and he uses undead occasionally when necessary. And the druid went beastmaster so he has 2 very powerfull Apes that are grapple maniacs. And he can transform into one as well. Also he has his spells ofc.)

[Phelix-Mu]

I think we are going to use some of these houserules along with Rubik's guide to try and bring things up to par. If he gets too strong we can always scale it.

(The Dread Necro acts more like a spellsword. He uses spell-storing + smiting spell + arcane channeling from duskblade to release 3spells in 1 attack dealing massive damage with maximized inflict spells through "master of day and night" and he uses undead occasionally when necessary. And the druid went beastmaster so he has 2 very powerfull Apes that are grapple maniacs. And he can transform into one as well. Also he has his spells ofc.)

Use of some kind of houserule to augment monk as written is a mainstay of many tables, so there is certainly no shame in straying from the RAW (even if high-op RAW monks are actually possible, as Rubik has amply demonstrated).

As to the other two, it looks like they are not rolling for demigods-on-paper, so making things more even in terms of effectiveness shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[Bellberith]

Btw about grappling.

It says "You can’t draw or use a weapon" while you are pinning a target. Does that include a natural weapon or unarmed strike? (such as an undead slam attack or the monks fists.)

[Metahuman1]

You can still use natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and light weapons like daggers.


That said, no casting, no tome of battle, no psionics, your making this really hard. Off hand, I have one suggestion.

Show him the Binder from Tome of Magic. With the right Vestiges Bound and Pact Augmentation benefits taken, It's a better Paladin then the Paladin, A better Monk then the Monk, and a whole lot of other things depending on what it wants to be that day.

[Bellberith]

You can still use natural weapons, unarmed strikes, and light weapons like daggers.


That said, no casting, no tome of battle, no psionics, your making this really hard. Off hand, I have one suggestion.

Show him the Binder from Tome of Magic. With the right Vestiges Bound and Pact Augmentation benefits taken, It's a better Paladin then the Paladin, A better Monk then the Monk, and a whole lot of other things depending on what it wants to be that day.

I actually recommended that to him lol. But he didn't want to stray from the path of lawful good phb monk. (he really does make it difficult)

I know while grappling you can use natural weapons/unarmed strike/light weapons, it says so in the rules that they can. But then it goes on to say specifically in the pinned section that they cannot draw or use a weapon. So i thought "weapon" meant light weapon and natural weapons(also unarmed strike).

[Metahuman1]

Well, in that case, the only other thing I can think of you could do with him that might work would be to see if you can tempt him with the famous "Fistbeard Beardfist" build.

[Sir Chuckles]

Btw about grappling.

It says "You can’t draw or use a weapon" while you are pinning a target. Does that include a natural weapon or unarmed strike? (such as an undead slam attack or the monks fists.)

Your fist is not technically a weapon. Hence the name "Unarmed Strike".

Can we get an overview of his current build (Race, feats, equipment) and the party he's in? That could help tremendously. I've played a Large Fighter 4/Monk 10 who pissed of my DM to the point where he veto'd my character after I killed the first boss in two turns. And every other encounter. Including an RP encounter.

[ryu]

Your fist is not technically a weapon. Hence the name "Unarmed Strike".

Can we get an overview of his current build (Race, feats, equipment) and the party he's in? That could help tremendously. I've played a Large Fighter 4/Monk 10 who pissed of my DM to the point where he veto'd my character after I killed the first boss in two turns. And every other encounter. Including an RP encounter.

And yet you can still get enchanting effects on them with proper item optimization. My personal favorite for enchanting fists is throwing.:smallamused:

[Bellberith]

His Race is half-elf (couldn't convince him to take human.......)

But everything else is not important because the DM is allowing a complete character rework(even race if he wanted it) for free. Since he wants his players to be happy with their characters. I don't know how proposing the house rules is going to be. But i am definitely going to be suggesting some stuff from that guide.

[Metahuman1]

And yet you can still get enchanting effects on them with proper item optimization. My personal favorite for enchanting fists is throwing.:smallamused:

Just don't forget the returning property.

One of these days I'm gonna build a Totemist with a monstrous str mod and give him and amulet of Mighty fists with the throwing, Returning, Distance and Force Properties one it, and a trick to get the extra +x to hit appropriate to my level.

And I'm gonna take improved Unarmed strike as a feat, and fluff him as using his Ki to blast thinks in a super fast barrage of attacks from range!


Edit:

Bell, seriously think about proposing any of those other builds/classes that have been suggested too him and just telling him to pic what ever alignment he wants and keep the fluff the same. I can all but promise, if you can talk him into it, he'll be happier once he's had a couple of instances of being awesome with it with out having to have really given anything up.

[Red Fel]

I would add Incarnum to that, particularly Totemist. First off, a Monk's armor restrictions don't prevent him from using Incarnum, which can be awfully handy. Second, a Monk's skill with natural weapons can make soulmelds like Girallon Arms and Sphinx Claws quite potent. Third, the Totem Chakra will give him some very useful tricks in general, such as turning things to stone.

Of course, if by "no magic or psionics" he basically means no supernatural anything, then yeah, he's basically down to Swordsage, and you say that's out too.

It sounds like what he wants is the Wuxia kung-fu master, and nobody told him that Monk, as-written, just can't pull that trick off. Go with homebrews.

And if he refuses to use homebrew, then he's made his choice. I can't make a character with no legs, refuse to mount rockets on my wheelchair, and then complain that I can't get up the stairs.

[ryu]

Just don't forget the returning property.

One of these days I'm gonna build a Totemist with a monstrous str mod and give him and amulet of Mighty fists with the throwing, Returning, Distance and Force Properties one it, and a trick to get the extra +x to hit appropriate to my level.

And I'm gonna take improved Unarmed strike as a feat, and fluff him as using his Ki to blast thinks in a super fast barrage of attacks from range!


Edit:

Bell, seriously think about proposing any of those other builds/classes that have been suggested too him and just telling him to pic what ever alignment he wants and keep the fluff the same. I can all but promise, if you can talk him into it, he'll be happier once he's had a couple of instances of being awesome with it with out having to have really given anything up.

You don't need no stinking returning property! Just also have a method of regenerating your fists... As an extra bonus you can make a bunch of attacks using nonlethal damage against the walls in a room to prepare to scare the crap out of someone unsuspecting. :smallamused:

[Rubik]

You don't need no stinking returning property! Just also have a method of regenerating your fists... As an extra bonus you can make a bunch of attacks using nonlethal damage against the walls in a room to prepare to scare the crap out of someone unsuspecting. :smallamused:I just throw my entire body. That way I can move WAY faster than my overland speed, can essentially fly, and can explode through my foes' bodies like a gory blood-soaked Kool-Aid Man using the exit wounds property.

[ryu]

I just throw my entire body. That way I can move WAY faster than my overland speed, can essentially fly, and can explode through my foes' bodies like a gory blood-soaked Kool-Aid Man using the exit wounds property.

Now see guys, Rubik has just proven understands perfectly the proper mentality for a PC to have. As such he immediately earns a significant chunk of my respect.

[ArcturusV]

ME-DOKEN!


Anyway, since your player is so gung ho about his restrictions... what jumps to mind as the go to "Fix my monk" thing is to PrC out as soon as possible, as hard as possible.

A single level (Or up to 4) of Shintao Monk isn't a bad thing at all. You get buffs in a Character Level X/Hours buff to a stat, bonus feats, still progresses monk stuff, some minor abilities taht are useful. Similarly there is the Tattooed Monk which is good for a one off, maybe up to 3 if you want two tattoos. The Henshin Mystic can help round it out.

I mean you're still effectively a monk. You still punch people somewhat ineffectively, move fast, slow fall, Flurry of Misses, etc, etc, etc. But it adds quite a few useful tricks to the arsenal and can help shore up some weaknesses in the build. The only things you'd really "miss" from PrCing out necessarily is the Dimension Door (Which is okay but not really worth slogging up to 12 for). Everything else is either so minor that it's not been a problem for ages (Tongue of Sun and Moon for example) doesn't have any real impact in a game (Timeless body) or so minor that you won't miss it (Wholeness of Body letting you heal yourself for very few points).

[Bellberith]

ME-DOKEN!


Anyway, since your player is so gung ho about his restrictions... what jumps to mind as the go to "Fix my monk" thing is to PrC out as soon as possible, as hard as possible.

A single level (Or up to 4) of Shintao Monk isn't a bad thing at all. You get buffs in a Character Level X/Hours buff to a stat, bonus feats, still progresses monk stuff, some minor abilities taht are useful. Similarly there is the Tattooed Monk which is good for a one off, maybe up to 3 if you want two tattoos. The Henshin Mystic can help round it out.

I mean you're still effectively a monk. You still punch people somewhat ineffectively, move fast, slow fall, Flurry of Misses, etc, etc, etc. But it adds quite a few useful tricks to the arsenal and can help shore up some weaknesses in the build. The only things you'd really "miss" from PrCing out necessarily is the Dimension Door (Which is okay but not really worth slogging up to 12 for). Everything else is either so minor that it's not been a problem for ages (Tongue of Sun and Moon for example) doesn't have any real impact in a game (Timeless body) or so minor that you won't miss it (Wholeness of Body letting you heal yourself for very few points).

I lost it when i read that. good laugh :smallsmile: (emphasis mine)

But i think i got all i need to help this guy out. Thank you very much guys/gals.