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Harbinger
2013-11-16, 10:20 PM
CE seems to be perceived as the alignment of one note card-carrying villains and cartoon bad guys. I think CE can be a very interesting alignment, so it'd be interesting to hear other peoples thoughts. Can anyone think of examples of interesting, three-dimensional characters who are CE?

The two examples that immediately spring to mind for me are Hanharr from the second Knights of the Old Republic video game, and the Comedian, from Watchmen. The first because of his reasoning behind his savagery, and the second because, despite the horrible things he did, it's still possible to empathize with him.

Piedmon_Sama
2013-11-16, 10:32 PM
Really to me Chaotic Evil is the go-to alignment of mercenaries, raiders, pirates--all of whom can be described as "adventurers." At a basic remove the act of adventuring, of going out and killing things and taking its stuff, is a chaotic evil enterprise. Honestly not only is Chaotic Evil far from "the most difficult" alignment to work into an adventuring party, to me it seems like the most natural alignment for people interested in that type of work.

Pex
2013-11-16, 11:21 PM
Skeletor - He-Man cartoon remake

When they redid He-Man they put sincere effort into it. It's still a kid show, but it is not corny. Cringer doesn't talk. Orko is used minimally. They gave a lot of back story to know what is going on. Skeletor will do evil things because he relishes his evilness, but that is the nature of kid shows. Skeletor himself is a genius. His schemes make a lot of sense only to be foiled by He-Man Ex Machina. Sometimes even He-Man needs Friend of the Day Ex Machina. I was disappointed the third and last season focused on King Hiss. Skeletor was fun to watch.

Anxe
2013-11-16, 11:42 PM
The Comedian is probably a bad pick as an example. While his outlook might be CE, his actions speak otherwise. He worked for the government throughout his life (Lawful) and he was often doing this for the good of the people. I'd put him at CN myself.

Not the point of this thread though! (Or is it? I don't know)
Slade from Teen Titans
Roose Bolton from Game of Thrones
Joffrey from Game of Thrones too
Cersei from Game of Thrones
Half the freaking characters from Game of Thrones

Harbinger
2013-11-16, 11:54 PM
The Comedian is probably a bad pick as an example. While his outlook might be CE, his actions speak otherwise. He worked for the government throughout his life (Lawful) and he was often doing this for the good of the people. I'd put him at CN myself.


He wasn't really doing it for the good of the people, though. He was doing it because he wanted to, and he only worked for the government because working for them gave him the chance to do what he enjoyed. He also shot a pregnant woman and tried to rape the Silk Spectre, both of which are pretty major evil actions. And discussing the Comedian's alignment seems to fall under the purpose of this thread, so no worries there.

Slade always seemed more NE to me, though I admit to not having seen the show in a long time (assuming you're talking about the show, because you called him Slade and not Deathstroke).

genderlich
2013-11-17, 12:07 AM
At the moment, I'm playing a Chaotic Evil Elf Antipaladin. He's a monster to the core, but presents himself as an actual Paladin (complete with radiant white armor) because that's what he believes himself to be, it's just that his god is the god of slaughter. He's anything but a mindless killing machine, because he's smart enough to realize that just killing people left and right will quickly lead to his death. Instead, to meet his quota of innocent blood for his god, he covertly spreads leprosy in any town he finds himself in. (Edit: The best part is that the 2d4 week incubation period means nobody will ever link it to him!) He's rather polite and seems good-natured until he makes some comment about how delicious he finds human children. Currently he's on a pirate ship, since that seems like the best way to easily kill large numbers of people.

Harbinger
2013-11-17, 12:25 AM
At the moment, I'm playing a Chaotic Evil Elf Antipaladin. He's a monster to the core, but presents himself as an actual Paladin (complete with radiant white armor) because that's what he believes himself to be, it's just that his god is the god of slaughter. He's anything but a mindless killing machine, because he's smart enough to realize that just killing people left and right will quickly lead to his death. Instead, to meet his quota of innocent blood for his god, he covertly spreads leprosy in any town he finds himself in. He's rather polite and seems good-natured until he makes some comment about how delicious he finds human children. Currently he's on a pirate ship, since that seems like the best way to easily kill large numbers of people.

That sounds like a lot of fun, and that sounds like a great character. A smart psychopath who kills subtly is so much more unnerving than someone who kills randomly people in the street.

One of the best characters I've ever made was a CE gnoll ranger/barb. In the setting he lived in, gnolls were a nomadic race who lived in the desert and coexisted peacefully with humans. This guy though, (his name was Navunaji) decided that humans were a whole lot easier to kill and eat than wild animals, so he started sneaking into human towns and night and killing people in their beds. When his tribe found out, he fled and ended up in a forest, conveniently located next to a few unsuspecting human villages.

He was an anarchist and thought that society restrained people, but he had a rudimentary honor system. He despised thrill-killers, those who killed for pleasure, because he considered life valuable and thought taking it without reason was an evil act. Of course, killing for food, acquisition of resources, etc was fine. He also hated undead, partially because he thought they were disgusting perversions of nature and partially because he didn't understand them.

Sadly, I never got the chance to play that character, as the game he was going to be in shriveled up and died. I still have his sheet though, and hope to one day play him.

Scow2
2013-11-17, 01:22 AM
Dangit... I need to work on the lyrics for the Party Vrock Anthem.

The Fury
2013-11-17, 02:21 AM
Wow, nobody's mentioned The Joker? Too obvious maybe. Just about any version of him probably qualifies as Chaotic Evil and the typical portrayal puts an interesting spin on it. Going from charming, to total Loony Tunes, to murderous. Most stories seem to imply that even he's not totally sure what he's out to accomplish. Then there's that memorable laugh (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm_GPkOfVKI) of his...

Admittedly trying to roleplay someone like that would be problematic.

Tengu_temp
2013-11-17, 02:40 AM
Yeah, I'd mention the Joker too. Also Kefka from Final Fantasy 6.


Really to me Chaotic Evil is the go-to alignment of mercenaries, raiders, pirates--all of whom can be described as "adventurers." At a basic remove the act of adventuring, of going out and killing things and taking its stuff, is a chaotic evil enterprise. Honestly not only is Chaotic Evil far from "the most difficult" alignment to work into an adventuring party, to me it seems like the most natural alignment for people interested in that type of work.

Oh hey, the murder hobos fallacy again. There's a difference between raiding a village for loot and killing raiders who attacked a village for loot. If your good/neutral characters are going around and killing anything they encounter, you're doing it wrong.

Blightedmarsh
2013-11-17, 02:50 AM
An unselee pack warlock who is deceptive and manipulative but who cant lie or break promises because he is in bed with the fey.

He believes that good and evil are in balance. You can't ever defeat good and you can't destroy evil. The balance shifts this way and that but its globally stable and overtime shifts back to its rest state.

Under his world view the best you can manage is to change the way that good or evil is expressed and that is his goal. He wishes to create a brothers grim style fairly tale kingdom where purity is allowed to flourish, the wicked are allowed to fester and there is a strong contrast. As he puts it "Just a plane old sunrise on a clear day is boring "You put some clouds up there and you set the sky on fire; set my soul on fire".

Other than that he hates aberrations. He got into bed with the unselee so that they could help him destroy his home town and kill or enslave most of his friends, family and neighbors as the town was being infiltrated by deep ones.

He is also trying to wheedle his way out of certain contractual obligations to his masters. He set up his oaths so that there was a loophole; albe it very odious to him. The fey of course saw right through it but let it pass because they knew it would be entertaining to watch what this proud man is forcing himself to do; just as our warlock was counting on.

Anxe
2013-11-17, 03:35 AM
I was avoiding the Joker because I don't really see him as a realistic character. Even the Dark Knight movies admit this by saying he doesn't exist within the Gotham Police records. Still, if we're including people like the Joker then we might as well include Sephiroth. Both are into destroying the world basically just because.

And for The Comedian being more goodish I was thinking of the riot scene where he says they have to protect the people from themselves. You're right though, there's a lot more evil actions than good. I guess I would go with CE after all.

BWR
2013-11-17, 03:58 AM
Several of the Darklords in Ravenloft.

Strahd, for instance. He is aristocratic, cultured and can be a charming host. However, he is the boss and never allows anyone to challenge his rule. He is callous, cruel and entirely self-absorbed. Absolutely nothing else matters but Tatyana, the woman he became obsessed with.
The humans in his realm he allows to live and be heavily taxed. As long as there are enough for him to sup on, he doesn't really care. Attacks on them are more like vandalism than anything else.


I'd say the most important part of Chaotic Evil is the need to be on top. Lust for power, dominance and subjgating everyone else. Nothing matters but forcing your will on the world. The only laws that matter are the ones you make yourself. The only people that matter are the ones you decide. People are either subjects or enemies (or potentials of either).
Chaotic evil does not need to be insane like the Joker, nor does it need to be a liar - some CE people have their own code, but it is entirely self-absorbed. It would rather destroy the world than allow others to dictate how it should live.

The Oni
2013-11-17, 03:59 AM
Haven't yet had the opportunity to play such a character. I did however write an NPC into one of my True Neutral character's backstories named Inquisitor Surtup, a Dwarven ex-servant of Abadar who will of course be appearing in the game later.

The Inquisitor has, quite simply, lost his ever-loving mind, because he's an old devout soldier of the faith (Abadar's faith in this case) but through a combination of The Ends Justify The Means and simple senility, he's become a real piece of work. My character is a Tiefling (Oni, specifically) Barbarian, and his heritage manifested as having huge, bulky arms. When he was captured as a young man (grown by Barbarian standards, a boy by most other's) and Abadar's paladins attempted to "civilize" him, Surtup was one of his instructors.

Surtup decided that his infernal taint resided in his arms and that it must be purged by fire. He shackled one of the Tiefling's arms to a table one day and burned it clear off with a divine spell that made regeneration impossible. The Paladins then burst in, now possessing evidence of Surtup's corruption, and excommunicated him from the church of Abadar. (It was later revealed that this whole arrangement was designed to confirm Surtup's psychosis by the paladins, and they had just used my character as bait.)

The truth was, though, Abadar stopped talking to Surtup ages ago. Whatever's granting him his spells now reassures him that yes, he did do the right thing, and should continue his mission to purge "evil" from the world, even if that means burning people alive. Especially if it means burning people alive.

123456789blaaa
2013-11-17, 03:30 PM
Several of the Darklords in Ravenloft.

Strahd, for instance. He is aristocratic, cultured and can be a charming host. However, he is the boss and never allows anyone to challenge his rule. He is callous, cruel and entirely self-absorbed. Absolutely nothing else matters but Tatyana, the woman he became obsessed with.
The humans in his realm he allows to live and be heavily taxed. As long as there are enough for him to sup on, he doesn't really care. Attacks on them are more like vandalism than anything else.


I'd say the most important part of Chaotic Evil is the need to be on top. Lust for power, dominance and subjgating everyone else. Nothing matters but forcing your will on the world. The only laws that matter are the ones you make yourself. The only people that matter are the ones you decide. People are either subjects or enemies (or potentials of either).
Chaotic evil does not need to be insane like the Joker, nor does it need to be a liar - some CE people have their own code, but it is entirely self-absorbed. It would rather destroy the world than allow others to dictate how it should live.

That sounds quite Lawful Evil to me as well (see: Asmodeus, the Blood Queen, etc). .

The_Werebear
2013-11-17, 03:41 PM
Jayne, of Firefly and Serenity, is Chaotic Evil in my book. He's treacherous, violent, self interested, and to some degree enjoys getting to hurt people. The important thing to remember when dipping into the evil alignments is that even bad people can have friends and loved ones. That's something that I think Firefly did very well. If you have seen it (as you should), example to follow. Sure, Jayne's willing to sell out his fellow crew members for the bounty, but he is still embarrassed about it because it upset his friends. While he wasn't repentant, he knew he had still let Mal, a friend, down and was upset enough to ask him to lie about it for him so he'd at least be well remembered.

The Oni
2013-11-17, 03:45 PM
Evil itself is the need to be on top. The need to force your will on others, take what should be rightfully yours, etc. etc.

Lawful Evil is planned, methodical, goal-oriented; they'll take three steps back if it will get them five steps forward. Chaotic Evil is impulsive, direct, and progress-oriented. Neutral Evil takes whichever approach they feel works better at the time. Bane is Lawful Evil; the Joker is Chaotic Evil.

BWR
2013-11-17, 03:47 PM
That sounds quite Lawful Evil to me as well (see: Asmodeus, the Blood Queen, etc). .

And the tanar'ri don't want to dominate everything?

The point is the need to be on top and not work with anyone else. CE is pretty much the poster child for 'does not play well with others'. LE works within a system. Sure, they may game the system or change it to suit themselves and be backstabbing bastards, but they want a system.

CE at heart accepts no law or system other than their own. They may be forced to work with others and be cunning and possibly work in a system but that is out of necessity or possibly even convenience, not out of any belief that the system is good or useful in itself.

ExtravagantEvil
2013-11-17, 04:01 PM
A character I've always wanted to play but never gotten the opportunity to try and play at the table.

Urag was an orc. He was a good orc. He pillaged like a good orc, He raped and killed and plundered with the best. He was a very, very good orc.
He was, some say, the best orc in his tribe.
He swung his sword high and low and bodies dropped about him like flies in a frog pond.
One day, Urag was raiding a small village, full of nobodies. Farmers, Drunks, and Weaklings of all fleshy pink sorts. He was fighting a guard, one head smaller than him and the guards body was half as thick as Urag's arm. The little twig knew how to dodge better than his fellow guards at least. But, this fight wasn't like any other fight. Urag, in all his experience, noticed interesting things about this lowly guard with every step and parry that the little twig attempted.
He knew that guard better than he knew some of his clansmen in that scuffle, and when the twig finally fell to the ground, quaking with fear, Urag looked him dead in the eyes, and saw the man's life in all of it's weak but pitiful glory before him. His children, the days on the farm, the little twig's hopes and fears in every twitch, and in every portion of his eyes.

Here, Urag was not a good orc. He hesitated. In that moment, he felt a crack at the base of his skull. He saw black.

Urag awoke to find his clansmen had passed on, counting him among the dead and the damned. The village was burned clean, the bodies piled, and everything was gone.

Urag knew, that he was no longer a good Orc. Urag was weak. Urag knew what is called by many as "empathy". Urag saw a man, not an obstacle. He took a small rag that he found amid the chunk of charcoal, covered his eyes, and vowed to never look an opponent in the eyes again, never to see more than a shadow that must be dealt with. Learn to know his opponent as an object, rather than a creature.

The character is about the removal of empathy, and the idea of removing any value from anything, in the name of his own individualistic blood lust, and sense of identity. It's the tale of a man who sees Chaotic Evil as the only path of life, and the only path that matters. However, it is a murderer straying from the path of individualistic violence, and showing concern. Everyone must be a possible target, and only his safety is valued, and by ignoring and shutting out empathy, can he be the proper individual he has to be.

Vamphyr
2013-11-17, 04:22 PM
I've always really wanted to play CE in a campaign. It's a very nuanced alignment with a lot of great roleplay potential that gets shut down by most DMs because they don't truly understand how it could work.

I talked with one of my old DMs about playing CE and he told me about one evil campaign he played in. He and his friend made CE characters and over the course of the first session murdered everyone for their stuff.:smallfurious:

Just another example of a one dimensional character who's only backbone was the concept "chaotic stupid" ruining the rep of chaotic evil everywhere.

Khay
2013-11-17, 04:58 PM
J. D. Thorne (http://tron.wikia.com/wiki/J.D._Thorne) from Tron 2.0 is at least sort of interesting. He's a personified computer virus / an improperly digitalized human being and sort of upset about this. The process more or less drove him mad and he's trying to spread the corruption to alleviate his pain somewhat and get back at those whom he feels are responsible for his fate. Also has an interesting dynamic with the Kernel, who is a dark shade of Lawful Neutral.


Urag
Iiiinteresting. A very different and much more dramatic track than the "comically exaggerated violent sociopathy" variety of CE, at least. (Possibly also an example of "learning the wrong lesson".

123456789blaaa
2013-11-17, 05:01 PM
And the tanar'ri don't want to dominate everything?

The point is the need to be on top and not work with anyone else. CE is pretty much the poster child for 'does not play well with others'. LE works within a system. Sure, they may game the system or change it to suit themselves and be backstabbing bastards, but they want a system.

CE at heart accepts no law or system other than their own. They may be forced to work with others and be cunning and possibly work in a system but that is out of necessity or possibly even convenience, not out of any belief that the system is good or useful in itself.

First off, no not all of them. Many demons simply want to destroy (Juiblex, Turglas etc). Second:


That sounds quite Lawful Evil to me as well (see: Asmodeus, the Blood Queen, etc). .

I also don't think CE needs to be forced or incentivised to work with other people. There's nothing about CE that stops the character from enjoying working with other people. They just don't like being forced to do so (by "the system" or otherwise).

Khay
2013-11-17, 05:22 PM
Oh, I forgot one! The main villain of Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, who is

not Arronax, but Kerghan (http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Kerghan), inventor of necromancy. He has done a lot of research into the afterlife, and how to bring bodies souls back from there. He eventually was banished to a prison dimension of some sort, where he continued his research and eventually visited the afterlife himself. It turns out said afterlife is so peaceful that being alive basically means constantly being in pain - he finds life to be unendingly painful, belives life is a great mistake of the function of the universe, and has taken up the burden of ending it. The clincher is that one of your party members, who is also back from the dead, will confirm that Kerghan is exactly right about the afterlife. He's all about dominance and destruction to the point of being an omnicidal maniac, but he has a decent motivation for it.

Trickquestion
2013-11-17, 05:58 PM
Sarevok, of Baldur's Gate, is a pretty good example of High Functioning Chaotic Evil.

Harbinger
2013-11-17, 10:18 PM
Oh! I thought of another one: Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. He's so messed up and evil, yet I found it hard not to feel a twinge of empathy for him as he went totally off the deep end. On the same token, Norman Bates from Psycho.

Piedmon_Sama
2013-11-18, 01:09 AM
Oh hey, the murder hobos fallacy again. There's a difference between raiding a village for loot and killing raiders who attacked a village for loot. If your good/neutral characters are going around and killing anything they encounter, you're doing it wrong.

Yeah playing a good character and indescriminately killing people sure would be weird. I have no idea what that has to do with what I said though.

Tevesh
2013-11-18, 01:35 AM
I think that CE can be summed up with one word: Selfish.

Neutral will cooperate and Lawful definitely cooperates. Devils cooperate because it is their system that allows them to subjugate the multiverse. Demons just do whatever feels right now.

As long as your character is interesting and they are selfish, they've got a shot at being an interesting CE character. I think Graz'zt is a prime example. Demogorgon and Orcus as well.

The Comedian, I agree with being an interesting CE character. It reminds me of another villain. He liked killing, he was good at it so he would do anything to make sure he could keep killing. In the case of the Comedian, it meant selling out to the Government.

Mastikator
2013-11-18, 02:04 AM
In D&D terms of morality Evil means sadistic and chaotic means not adhering to rules (personal or societal) and it means being spontaneous.

Combine these and you have a textbook psychopath, somebody who doesn't care about what anyone thinks, has no conscience, no self control and possibly wants to kill or hurt people (not all psychopaths are serial killers, not all CE are criminals, but there's a strong causal correlation).

Being interesting is somewhat subjective, but it always comes from having a depth of character, a race/class combo isn't interesting, nor a list of traits. There needs to be some kind of history that explains and leads up to the character today, it needs to make sense.

The Fury
2013-11-18, 03:25 AM
I was avoiding the Joker because I don't really see him as a realistic character. Even the Dark Knight movies admit this by saying he doesn't exist within the Gotham Police records. Still, if we're including people like the Joker then we might as well include Sephiroth. Both are into destroying the world basically just because.


The Joker's admittedly not realistic, but then again this thread isn't about "Realistic Chaotic Evil Characters." That said, I thought some portrayals of the character were pretty clever and nuanced, like The Killing Joke.
As for Sephiroth-- well, your mileage may vary on this one but I always thought he was a little vanilla as bad guys go. But hey, I know plenty of people out there consider him one of the best video game villains ever written. If you're one of those people, more power to you.



I also don't think CE needs to be forced or incentivised to work with other people. There's nothing about CE that stops the character from enjoying working with other people. They just don't like being forced to do so (by "the system" or otherwise).

Agreed. Keep in mind working with others is generally more profitable than working on your own, especially in the long run. Going back to the Comedian, he really seemed to enjoy working for the government because he got to murder and brutalize people that the government didn't like, and he got paid for it!

Kane0
2013-11-18, 03:44 AM
Freaky Fred struck me as a good example of a chaotic evil type that isnt a psychotic murderer.

Shoot Da Moon
2013-11-18, 07:35 AM
The Comedian was CE for sure, I don't know how anyone who read the comic can dispute that.

The villain of Arcanum, however, was just a painfully misguided CG guy who shows us that just having the 'right' alignment doesn't mean your actions are above reproach.

The Master from Fallout 1 was similar; he was...LN? But painfully misguided and a bit of a jerk. Rest of the bad guys were along the Evil axis, though.

Prime32
2013-11-18, 08:16 AM
Think Social Darwinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism). It's possible to adventure with someone who believes that the strong are entitled to trample on the weak, as long as his partymates are strong enough that he sees them as equals or near-equals (or he's just plain attached to them for whatever reason). And just because he believes he's automatically morally justified in theft, murder or rape doesn't mean he does it for no reason, anymore than his partymates spontaneously start tapdancing everywhere just because their moral code has no rule against tapdancing.

Such a chaotic evil character could even try to help the helpless, but only by giving them an opportunity for self-improvement, not through handouts. If they're unwilling to climb the ladder then they're just worthless parasites.

Agrippa
2013-11-18, 10:37 AM
How about Richard Fitzpatrick from Call Me Fitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_Me_Fitz)? He's selfish, callous, despises all authority, doesn't play well with others, acks empathy and is wrapped in his own self gratification to the point of corruption. In my opinion he's basically one of the better examples of non-psycho Chaotic Evil around.

Talyn
2013-11-18, 12:58 PM
I'm going to suggest that George Costanza from Seinfeld is an excellent example of a Chaotic Evil character.

He is selfish, disorganized, shows no remorse for bringing harm to others and utterly lacks empathy for the people around him. Even when he tries to do "right," he doesn't really understand what right is and is doing it basically because he thinks it will be better for him in the medium-term. (He lacks the ability to focus on the really long term that is endemic to chaotic characters.)

The difference between George and everybody else that has been discussed so far? Two things: first, George doesn't have any real power, which means he can be funny instead of horrific or terrifying. (Though note that, when he does manage to get power over someone, he abuses it more or less constantly.) Second, unlike most of the rest of the examples we've made, George is not a psychopath - he occasionally feels bad about his actions, but he is too selfish and too much of a coward to actually change.

This, I think, is a more realistic personification of Chaotic Evil. Very few people are raving, murderous psychopaths in the vein of Patrick Bateman or the Joker - but there are a lot of people who see an opportunity to NOT harm others and then don't take it because their greed or cowardice gets the better of them.

Melayl
2013-11-18, 02:14 PM
I agree with Talyn on George.

Really, any villain with a complete lack of morals, honor, and compassion who enjoys creating pain and chaos. For example:

Freddy Krueger of Nightmare on Elm Street.

Orochimaru from Naruto.

Sabertooth, Mister Sinister, Purple Man, Baron Zemo, Red Skull, Carnage, Green Goblin, Dark Phoenix, and, really, a great many others from Marvel Comics.

hamishspence
2013-11-18, 04:01 PM
The difference between George and everybody else that has been discussed so far? Two things: first, George doesn't have any real power, which means he can be funny instead of horrific or terrifying. (Though note that, when he does manage to get power over someone, he abuses it more or less constantly.) Second, unlike most of the rest of the examples we've made, George is not a psychopath - he occasionally feels bad about his actions, but he is too selfish and too much of a coward to actually change.

This, I think, is a more realistic personification of Chaotic Evil. Very few people are raving, murderous psychopaths in the vein of Patrick Bateman or the Joker - but there are a lot of people who see an opportunity to NOT harm others and then don't take it because their greed or cowardice gets the better of them.

Complete Scoundrel gave Carl Denham from the King Kong movie (I think intended to be the modern one) as a CE example.

He also might fit the "low-end Evil" type.

Kane0
2013-11-18, 04:03 PM
Such a chaotic evil character could even try to help the helpless, but only by giving them an opportunity for self-improvement, not through handouts. If they're unwilling to climb the ladder then they're just worthless parasites.

Sounds like the Closed Fist philosophy of Jade Empire. Did a good job on it too until the whole morality thing became just another naughty/nice bar.

Lyndworm
2013-11-18, 04:36 PM
He wasn't really doing it for the good of the people, though. He was doing it because he wanted to, and he only worked for the government because working for them gave him the chance to do what he enjoyed.
The Comedian, I agree with being an interesting CE character. It reminds me of another villain. He liked killing, he was good at it so he would do anything to make sure he could keep killing. In the case of the Comedian, it meant selling out to the Government.
Going back to the Comedian, he really seemed to enjoy working for the government because he got to murder and brutalize people that the government didn't like, and he got paid for it!
I couldn't agree more. On a related note, this is among my favorite character motivations (http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2666).


Freaky Fred struck me as a good example of a chaotic evil type that isnt a psychotic murderer.
The spontaneous cutting (and especially shaving) of one's own hair is considered by many to be a form of self-harm. (Regardless of our personal views, a great deal of people share this opinion.) Even as a child I took Freaky Fred and the Home for Freaky Barbers to be a thinly veiled euphemism. Don't ask why a 10-year-old was aware of this concept.

Freaky Fred is my favorite poet.

Harbinger
2013-11-18, 04:46 PM
Bender from Futurama is also often presented as a (usually) non-murderous example of CE.

Anxe
2013-11-18, 07:53 PM
That's another show with a lot of CE characters.

veti
2013-11-18, 10:46 PM
One who's more interesting to me than all of the above put together: Harry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Flashman) Flashman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Flashman).

Interesting because he gives a first-person narrative view of most of the greatest historical figures of the 19th century - all seen through a decidedly CE prism.

Harbinger
2013-11-18, 10:52 PM
One who's more interesting to me than all of the above put together: Harry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Flashman) Flashman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Flashman).

Interesting because he gives a first-person narrative view of most of the greatest historical figures of the 19th century - all seen through a decidedly CE prism.

Huh. I've never heard of it, but it looks very interesting.

Trickquestion
2013-11-19, 12:30 AM
Another interesting Chaotic Evil character is Steven Heck, of espionage RPG Alpha Protocol. Heck is completely insane: He describes himself as a deep cover CIA agent, but really just seems to be a lunatic who took up espionage as a hobby. He runs his own network in Taiwan to pull of highly destructive operations that work towards no logical goal, loves killing and doesn't care about civilian causalities, cuts off people's fingers for calling him Steve, and is introduced torturing one of his men with drain cleaner for the location of his keys.

However, Steven can take a liking to the protagonist, and will aid him in his mission to bring down the defense contractor CEO BBEG, and is one of the few potential allies in the game who does not betray him, and has no hidden agenda. His assistance is also extremely useful in the missions you contact him for, and comes in the form of poisoning a Snowflame wannabe's stash of drugs and strafing the Chinese secret police with a chain gun mounted on a subway car.

Hardcore Chaotic Evil? Yes. An extremely reliable, trustworthy ally, in a game where such a thing is rare? Also yes.

Shoot Da Moon
2013-11-19, 01:03 AM
is one of the few potential allies in the game who does not betray him, and has no hidden agenda.

It should be noted that is arguably untrue; if you antagonise him, he does sell you out at the end of Taipai just a bit and there are hints that he was the go-between hired by Halbech to arrange the assassination and he manipulates you in the first meeting to throw you off his trail.

Other than that, he IS actually somewhat of a good ally.

Trickquestion
2013-11-19, 01:35 AM
Still, he is one of, the most straightforward and honest characters in the entire game, at least compared to everyone else, which is really a result of his Chaotic Evil nature, if you think about it. He has no secret agenda, unlike just about everyone else in the game, so he'll only turn on you if you have a personality clash with him.

The Fury
2013-11-19, 01:59 AM
I'm going to suggest that George Costanza from Seinfeld is an excellent example of a Chaotic Evil character.

He is selfish, disorganized, shows no remorse for bringing harm to others and utterly lacks empathy for the people around him. Even when he tries to do "right," he doesn't really understand what right is and is doing it basically because he thinks it will be better for him in the medium-term. (He lacks the ability to focus on the really long term that is endemic to chaotic characters.)

The difference between George and everybody else that has been discussed so far? Two things: first, George doesn't have any real power, which means he can be funny instead of horrific or terrifying. (Though note that, when he does manage to get power over someone, he abuses it more or less constantly.) Second, unlike most of the rest of the examples we've made, George is not a psychopath - he occasionally feels bad about his actions, but he is too selfish and too much of a coward to actually change.



Actually, yeah. Good call! Though with that said, wouldn't the rest of the main characters on Seinfeld qualify as some sort of evil too? I seem to recall an episode where George asked Jerry, "What kind of guy are you?"
To which Jerry replied "Same kind as you, only successful."

GungHo
2013-11-19, 09:34 AM
Actually, yeah. Good call! Though with that said, wouldn't the rest of the main characters on Seinfeld qualify as some sort of evil too? I seem to recall an episode where George asked Jerry, "What kind of guy are you?"
To which Jerry replied "Same kind as you, only successful."

Pretty much. Which is why they go from one miserable situation to another. Seinfeld is essentially a parable about the modern-day sociopath. They never learn. They never feel. You aren't meant to feel sorry for their suffering, because they don't even feel sorry for their suffering.

Talyn
2013-11-19, 11:33 AM
Jerry and Elaine are Neutral Evil (with Elaine occasionally dipping into Lawful Evil territory), while Kramer is Chaotic Neutral.

Actually, come to think of it, they would make an excellent personality archtype example for an Evil adventuring party...

The Fury
2013-11-19, 12:20 PM
So, what does that make Newman? To quote Jerry, "I've looked into his eyes, he's pure evil!"

Frozen_Feet
2013-11-19, 01:44 PM
Oh hey, the murder hobos fallacy again. There's a difference between raiding a village for loot and killing raiders who attacked a village for loot. If your good/neutral characters are going around and killing anything they encounter, you're doing it wrong.

To be frank, a lot of roleplayers are doing it wrong. :smalltongue: Just because party X commits attrocities on party Y doesn't make it good for party Y committing them back to party X.

"Eye for an eye" is not a good philosophy in context of D&D. It is a lawful philosophy, and neutral at best.

Any good philosophy needs to look past retribution, towards restoration and redemption. Failure to do that means the supposed heroes quickly become just as bad as the vllains.

---

On the actual topic: Rorscach, from Watchmen, also qualifies. A lot of people get mislead by how he "never compromises!" and "punishes evil!"

Those people didn't pay attention to the comic. First of all, Rorsach is a nihilist aiming for ubermensch - he has cast away all traditions and societal order and his highest priority is to not get caught so he can keep doing what he wants, as witnessed in the scene where he very violently resists arrest. He uses lethal force against several (likely innocent) police officers who are just doing their job, to preserve his freedom. That alone puts him far in the chaotic bin.

And the evil? Did you miss the part where he punishes criminals completely disproportionately and is not averse to using torture? "Eye for an eye" is at best neutral - "throw guy down an elevator shaft because he dressed funny" is evil.

Also, he is a hypocrite. The best argument made for him being "lawful" is him following an internal code, but he breaks even that. He is exactly the sort of person he is trying to protect society from - a violent loon who deals unjust punishments based on what he, and only he, wants.

Alberic Strein
2013-11-19, 02:50 PM
Kotomine (EFFIN) Kirei

Starts of as a True Neutral who desperately, DESPERATELY tries to be a Lawful Good priest of God, has a knack for healing, is a good son, has a loving wife, and strikes most people as being, at worst, lawful neutral who feels nothing and yet tries to do good (through serving God). The first part of his backstory is utterly sympathetic.

The catch is, he never ever feels pleasure because the only thing he can ever enjoy is evil. He slowly descends into Chaotic Evil, yet only very subtly changes. The shift in narration as he slowly accepts who he is is just thrilling. Last but not least, he doesn't "devolve" into Chaotic Evil, he stays just as competent as he ever was and pursues a purely philosophical goal linked to the reason for his existence... Besides petty (and yet grandly machiavelic) mayhem to prevent himself from getting bored to death.

Also, the hero instantaneously gets his jokes... And is indirectly responsible for clothing one of the heroines.

Harbinger
2013-11-19, 04:19 PM
-snip-

Rorschach as CE? That's not something I've heard before, but I guess it's valid. I think he's Lawful Neutral, though, for pretty much the exact reasons you said you don't agree with. Let me try (try, I'm not that good at this) to argue.

Rorschach's lawfulness, lemme see...

As you said, he has a personal code. He has values and integrity and he hates people who don't. I don't know what you're talking about him breaking his code, because I don't remember that. I'm not saying you're wrong, my memory might just be off. Anyway, the fact that he refuses to compromise on his belief that people deserve to know what Ozymandias did, even though it cost him his life, seems pretty lawful to me. I think that's the best argument in favor of him being lawful.

The scene where he resists arrest? Well, you don't necessarily have to follow the law to be lawful, though Rorschach does when he considers the law to be right. Rorschach thinks the anti-superhero laws are wrong, so he doesn't follow them. He wasn't trying to preserve his freedom, he was trying to preserve his ability to enforce his own rather warped justice on the city.

The scene where he threatens Moloch over an illegal medication strikes me as extremely lawful (again, please correct me if I'm remembering something incorrectly). He punishes people who break the laws he does agree with, which is good, in an extremely violent manner that often results in their deaths, which is evil. Personally, I think you could definitely make the argument that he's evil, but in my opinion he's considerably more lawful than chaotic.

He is a hypocrite to some extent, but that doesn't stop him from being lawful. He certainly, see's himself as Lawful Good anyway. He's really, really not, of course, but he sees himself that way.

123456789blaaa
2013-11-19, 06:49 PM
Kotomine (EFFIN) Kirei

Starts of as a True Neutral who desperately, DESPERATELY tries to be a Lawful Good priest of God, has a knack for healing, is a good son, has a loving wife, and strikes most people as being, at worst, lawful neutral who feels nothing and yet tries to do good (through serving God). The first part of his backstory is utterly sympathetic.

The catch is, he never ever feels pleasure because the only thing he can ever enjoy is evil. He slowly descends into Chaotic Evil, yet only very subtly changes. The shift in narration as he slowly accepts who he is is just thrilling. Last but not least, he doesn't "devolve" into Chaotic Evil, he stays just as competent as he ever was and pursues a purely philosophical goal linked to the reason for his existence... Besides petty (and yet grandly machiavelic) mayhem to prevent himself from getting bored to death.

Also, the hero instantaneously gets his jokes... And is indirectly responsible for clothing one of the heroines.

Kotomine is one of the best examples of an interesting NE villain I've ever seen. Chaotic characters value freedom and hate following imposed rules. Kotomine doesn't even care. He's hollow. Kotomine if fine with following rules but is also fine with disobeying them. I don't see how he's CE at all.

GungHo
2013-11-20, 09:36 AM
So, what does that make Newman? To quote Jerry, "I've looked into his eyes, he's pure evil!"

Evil Outsider. Likely a Hezrou or Nalfeshnee demon.

Blightedmarsh
2013-11-20, 10:04 AM
I think Rawshanks hates mankind for daring to be flawed. He harms people he doesn't approve of because the world doesn't match the way he fantasies it should be.

Alberic Strein
2013-11-20, 11:19 AM
Kotomine is one of the best examples of an interesting NE villain I've ever seen. Chaotic characters value freedom and hate following imposed rules. Kotomine doesn't even care. He's hollow. Kotomine if fine with following rules but is also fine with disobeying them. I don't see how he's CE at all.

The thing with the alignment system is that it doesn't quite cut it for characters created outside the scope of D&D and broader definitions of evil, good, chaos and law. I can totally see why you see Kotomine as a NE character, but him being visibly afflicted with the chronic backstabbing disorder, plus not being above some clearly blatant lies ("It's a construction defect") and his end-goal empasizing (at least for me) freedom, the right, the freedom to be born, to be free of a preset bunch of morals, really sell him as a CE for me.

Also, his whole "because it amused me" shtick, like his THOROUGH trolling of Tohsaka, strikes me more as a chaotic feature.

JustSomeGuy
2013-11-20, 04:21 PM
Hannibal Lecter - serial killer, serious issues with others (manners? composure? intelect? whatever!), real cunning and plans meticulously and hides within the law most of the time (as in no rampage), but also quite prone to sudden urges and loses his s**t at the drop of a hat.

Trevor from GTA V - drug dealer, obvious rampage problem, but has a kind of moral code (of sorts, however skewed) like releasing a guy he just tortured just to 'get one over' the government, who he was working for at the time!

Sterling Archer - totally self centred, very violent yet nonchalantly so, blames others for any and all problems, real or imaginary, and quite unconcerned with others, alhough works with/uses/hangs around them quite happily too!

The man with no name (except when he's called 'blondie' or 'manco') - bounty hunter, works for whoever has money regardless of which side of the law they lay, prone to sudden or random 'changes of heart' (like switching sides or turnig on partners), yet fond of kittens, eases the death of a young soldier, helps avert the deaths of thousands (although this furthered his goal of crossing the bridge, it was also a poignant moment and he recognised the good of his deed), fights for the weak sometimes too.

The Insanity
2013-11-21, 07:52 PM
Alex from A Clockwork Orange. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7fO3bzPeBQ)

Fiery Diamond
2013-11-21, 11:40 PM
My favorite CE character doesn't actually meet the requirements for this thread, because he's not three dimensional and doesn't really have any depth. Still, I love Zagi from Tales of Vesperia. Fights for fighting's sake, absolutely obsesses over fighting the main character because the main character has bested him before, and is completely insane. Has the insane laughter down perfectly.

JustSomeGuy
2013-11-22, 04:25 AM
My favorite CE character doesn't actually meet the requirements for this thread, because he's not three dimensional and doesn't really have any depth. Still, I love Zagi from Tales of Vesperia. Fights for fighting's sake, absolutely obsesses over fighting the main character because the main character has bested him before, and is completely insane. Has the insane laughter down perfectly.

Sounds like the Black Whirlwind, and i'm sure plenty others who just want to fight/prove themselves best, often also including alcohol, sex and insanity. Would this be a trope somewhere?

Prime32
2013-11-22, 08:43 AM
Sounds like the Black Whirlwind, and i'm sure plenty others who just want to fight/prove themselves best, often also including alcohol, sex and insanity. Would this be a trope somewhere?http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodKnight

jidasfire
2013-11-22, 11:00 AM
Hannibal Lecter - serial killer, serious issues with others (manners? composure? intelect? whatever!), real cunning and plans meticulously and hides within the law most of the time (as in no rampage), but also quite prone to sudden urges and loses his s**t at the drop of a hat.

Trevor from GTA V - drug dealer, obvious rampage problem, but has a kind of moral code (of sorts, however skewed) like releasing a guy he just tortured just to 'get one over' the government, who he was working for at the time!

Sterling Archer - totally self centred, very violent yet nonchalantly so, blames others for any and all problems, real or imaginary, and quite unconcerned with others, alhough works with/uses/hangs around them quite happily too!

The man with no name (except when he's called 'blondie' or 'manco') - bounty hunter, works for whoever has money regardless of which side of the law they lay, prone to sudden or random 'changes of heart' (like switching sides or turnig on partners), yet fond of kittens, eases the death of a young soldier, helps avert the deaths of thousands (although this furthered his goal of crossing the bridge, it was also a poignant moment and he recognised the good of his deed), fights for the weak sometimes too.

Most of these work, but the Man With No Name is not CE. He's CN at worst, and depending on which movie, sometimes he even pushes good. Given that he never harms anyone who doesn't deserve it and only steals from the crooked and greedy, he doesn't make the cut for evil.

JustSomeGuy
2013-11-22, 11:47 AM
Most of these work, but the Man With No Name is not CE. He's CN at worst, and depending on which movie, sometimes he even pushes good. Given that he never harms anyone who doesn't deserve it and only steals from the crooked and greedy, he doesn't make the cut for evil.

But he's totally out for himself, and he regularly cheats and tricks others - with the eventual likelihood of death! Robbery, murder etc. is evil regardless of the target, no? Whilst on the films, most of the lead characters from Good, bad and ugly and Once upon a time in the west are pretty interesting and pretty bad!

jidasfire
2013-11-22, 12:12 PM
But he's totally out for himself, and he regularly cheats and tricks others - with the eventual likelihood of death! Robbery, murder etc. is evil regardless of the target, no? Whilst on the films, most of the lead characters from Good, bad and ugly and Once upon a time in the west are pretty interesting and pretty bad!

I've watched all those pretty recently and he never straight up murders anyone in cold blood. He kills in gunfights and self-defense, sure, but he never harms innocents or acts sadistically. If you consider that evil, then every protagonist who uses violence ever is evil. If he draws lines about who he hurts and how/why he hurts them, that's not evil. There are plenty of evil people in those stories, but we follow him because he isn't one of them. Now, is he a pillar of moral virtue? Nah, probably not. And yes, he lies and steals, which is why he's pretty clearly chaotic. But evil? I just don't see it.

Axinian
2013-11-22, 02:44 PM
Yeah I've always seen the Man With No Name as CN. He's not virtuous enough to be good, he often does questionable things for money, but he takes responsibility when his actions put others in danger. Furthermore, he doesn't pull civilians into these events, and even rescues those who don't deserve to be involved in the first movie.

hamishspence
2013-11-22, 07:41 PM
If he draws lines about who he hurts and how/why he hurts them, that's not evil.

It really depends where those lines are.

Some anti-heroes are Evil (BoVD) - and the LE description mentions that some LE villains draw lines - not being willing to hurt children, for example.

Scow2
2013-11-22, 11:44 PM
Robbery, murder etc. is evil regardless of the target, no?Actually, Robbery, murder, etc. is not regardless of the target. Robbing from thieves isn't evil. In fact, robbing from anyone who isn't dependent on the purloined goods is Chaotic, not Evil - it disrupts the social order and expectations of the victim, but does not actually harm them any more than a stock going bad harms someone (The stock in this case being the person's faith and trust in the social order and contract). Killing someone who deserves it because they deserve it is likewise not evil. Anyone who doesn't believe "He needed killin'" is a valid defense for murder has never had the misfortune to actually meet someone who needed killin'.


Yeah I've always seen the Man With No Name as CN. He's not virtuous enough to be good, he often does questionable things for money, but he takes responsibility when his actions put others in danger. Furthermore, he doesn't pull civilians into these events, and even rescues those who don't deserve to be involved in the first movie.
The Man With No Name is Good. Otherwise, the title of the movie would be "The Neutral, The Bad, and The Ugly"

hamishspence
2013-11-23, 04:55 AM
According to BoVD, Murder and Theft are evil by default- though, circumstances might turn such acts into "Not-Evil" depending on the circumstances and the DM.

llehctim
2013-11-23, 12:44 PM
To be fair I am pretty sure paladins wrote the boed and fallen Paladians wrote the Bovd.
I have played several evil characters in campaigns, who in a twist of irony acted less evil than my chaotic random and consequence free party members aka CN my least favorite alignment when done wrong.
Th first was a reprimanded who would stop at nothing to avenge or get back the soul of his murdered wife. He ended up saving the world from an evil god, who had been responsible for the murder of his wife (due to a prophecy that he would kill that God). My CN allies partook in torture, theft an uric burning down an orphanage because that was random.

My second evil character was a binder who was a worshipper of vecna, questing to find the secrets hidden in ancient ruins. Sadly the party threatened to kill me I I didn't hand over my bag of holding (aka half of my reduced starting wealth) to give to someone who was clearly not trustworthy (no they didn't know I was evil). Evil nobles disguise as adventurers won't hang around bandits that outnumber and are stronger than them if given the choice, so I retired the character.
For another kind of evil character (due to a semi possession by a demon making them detect as evil an messing with their heads)
They all worked well as characters, th other players were mostly jerks though, ah well.

messy1349
2013-11-23, 01:23 PM
wilva! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iggwilv) :smallbiggrin:

Wardog
2013-11-24, 03:41 PM
The scene where he threatens Moloch over an illegal medication strikes me as extremely lawful (again, please correct me if I'm remembering something incorrectly). He punishes people who break the laws he does agree with, which is good, in an extremely violent manner that often results in their deaths, which is evil. Personally, I think you could definitely make the argument that he's evil, but in my opinion he's considerably more lawful than chaotic.

He is a hypocrite to some extent, but that doesn't stop him from being lawful. He certainly, see's himself as Lawful Good anyway. He's really, really not, of course, but he sees himself that way.

I presume you meant "Lawful"?

***

On the subject of the Comedien, I'd be inclined to call him Lawful, or at least Neutral. Sure, he does a lot of things that might in other circumstances be considered CE, but not only is he working for the authorities, he seems believe that the authorities are necessary, and that people like him doing what he does is necessary for maintaining the good (and more importantly order) of society.

He isn't a Belkar-like character (motivated by a desire to hurt and destroy, who the authorities barely tolerate as long as they can direct him towards their enemies, while he (Belkar) only tolerates the arrangement because rejecting/renaging would harm him).

He's more like the Operative from Serenity (although more sadistic and not as Lawful, and as far as I can remember doesn't actually acknowledge that he is evil).

Harbinger
2013-11-24, 06:26 PM
I presume you meant "Lawful"?

I guess I didn't make it clear in my original post, but I was talking about the murderers, rapists, etc. I'd say that's good. Sorry if I was unclear.


On the subject of the Comedien, I'd be inclined to call him Lawful, or at least Neutral. Sure, he does a lot of things that might in other circumstances be considered CE, but not only is he working for the authorities, he seems believe that the authorities are necessary, and that people like him doing what he does is necessary for maintaining the good (and more importantly order) of society.

He isn't a Belkar-like character (motivated by a desire to hurt and destroy, who the authorities barely tolerate as long as they can direct him towards their enemies, while he (Belkar) only tolerates the arrangement because rejecting/renaging would harm him).


He totally is though. He does what he does because he relishes murder and violence. He doesn't give a crap about order, he just enjoys killing people, and he works for the government because they allow him to do it without being punished. He believes the authorities are good for society, but what makes him interesting is that he doesn't care what's good for society. He's a complete nihilist, he believes life is a joke, and the punchline is him killing people. I can't imagine a more CE character.

TheOOB
2013-11-25, 06:06 AM
The very premise of this conversation is, in my opinion, what is wrong with the alignment system. The title should be "Interesting characters who are Chaotic Evil." instead of what it is know.

Alignment isn't a script, or a character idea. Alignment is a quality a character gains based on their actions. The Joker doesn't kill people because he's evil, he's evil because he kills people. Superman isn't follow the rules of law and good, he is Lawful Good because of his actions.

As for interesting example, Kefka, Darth Malak, Guts, Lelouch vi Britannia, and Jayne

Harbinger
2013-11-25, 06:16 AM
The very premise of this conversation is, in my opinion, what is wrong with the alignment system. The title should be "Interesting characters who are Chaotic Evil." instead of what it is know.

Alignment isn't a script, or a character idea. Alignment is a quality a character gains based on their actions. The Joker doesn't kill people because he's evil, he's evil because he kills people. Superman isn't follow the rules of law and good, he is Lawful Good because of his actions.


You're assuming a lot about what other people think based on a slight phrasing difference. I agree with you that that is a problem, but by and large I don't think it's one present in this thread.

Narren
2013-11-25, 05:47 PM
The very premise of this conversation is, in my opinion, what is wrong with the alignment system. The title should be "Interesting characters who are Chaotic Evil." instead of what it is know.

Alignment isn't a script, or a character idea. Alignment is a quality a character gains based on their actions. The Joker doesn't kill people because he's evil, he's evil because he kills people. Superman isn't follow the rules of law and good, he is Lawful Good because of his actions.

As for interesting example, Kefka, Darth Malak, Guts, Lelouch vi Britannia, and Jayne

I don't think the semantics of the thread title are having any detrimental effect on the conversation. I haven't noticed anyone saying anything that alignment dictates action, especially for a fictional character from some other work.

The Insanity
2013-11-28, 11:00 AM
Revi from Black Lagoon.