Critical Hits

[AzureKnight]

Ok guys, a have 2 guys in my group that are dedicated spell casters. One arcane, the other divine. Well, tonight our rouge was beloved by the d20 gods and managed to score 6 critical hits with backstab.

The casters approached me after the game session and told me they were a little bit frustrated about critical hits, as their spells would never be able to do such thing. They asked me to encorporate a crit hit allowance for spells.

I am torn on the issue. Can I get some opinions on the matter of rather to allow or decline spell critical hit damage. I see the beniefits as well as the hinderances.

If allowed I would allow x2 damage or effect when applicaple, and perhaps add a few feats to allow a better crit chance ie improved critical metamagic, 2hich would allow crit go from 20 x2, to 19-20 x2.

I am open to suggestions either way.

[Yuki Akuma]

Spells can critically hit. Any spell that allows an attack roll will threaten a critical hit on a natural 20, and will deal x2 damage on a critical confirmation.

Tell them to start using spells that require attack rolls if they want to get critical hits.

You can totally take Weapon Focus (Touch Spells) and Improved Critical (Touch Spells), too. There's no need to modify anything.

One thing: Sneak Attack damage isn't multiplied by critical hits. So, really, critical hit rules benefit the casters more than the Rogue.

Also, something your Rogue might like to know: weaponlike spells can also deal Sneak Attack damage! This damage is of the same damage type as the spell (acid, fire, whatever), except in the case of energy drain and ability damage; in those cases, the spell deals extra negative energy damage instead.

[vorpalvitto]

As Akuma already said, you can make a critical hit with a spell, as long as it needs an attack roll. It is explicitly written in Complete Arcane p.85, under weaponlike spells.

You said that the rogue, made 6 critical hits while backstabbing. I assume you mean while using sneak attack. You should know that the extra damage from sneak attack does not get multiplied, only the damage caused by the weapon is.

[Yuki Akuma]

As Akuma already said, you can make a critical hit with a spell, as long as it needs an attack roll. It is explicitly written in Complete Arcane p.85, under weaponlike spells.

You said that the rogue, made 6 critical hits while backstabbing. I assume you mean while using sneak attack. You should know that the extra damage from sneak attack does not get multiplied, only the damage caused by the weapon is.

His Strength modifier (Dexterity modifier if he's using Shadow Blade) is also modified, as a note.

And if the weapon is, say, flaming, you don't multiply the 2d6 fire damage. But if, on the other hand, you have a weapon enhancement crystal that just adds +2 fire damage, you would multiply that.

Confusing? Yes.

The basic rule is that all bonus damage in the form of dice isn't multiplied, while bonus damage in the form of flat modifiers is modified.

[ArcturusV]

Yuki's got the right of it. Though I think "Crits do multiple Sneak Attack" is a common house rule. Least I've seen it a lot. So you're in company if you use it. Really isn't going to break the game open that much as honestly 1d6 weapon, plus 3d6 sneak attack getting doubled isn't going to be all that much more powerful compared to a fighter who's busting out 1d12, and +15 which is getting tripled.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yuki's got the right of it. Though I think "Crits do multiple Sneak Attack" is a common house rule. Least I've seen it a lot. So you're in company if you use it. Really isn't going to break the game open that much as honestly 1d6 weapon, plus 3d6 sneak attack getting doubled isn't going to be all that much more powerful compared to a fighter who's busting out 1d12, and +15 which is getting tripled.

Oh, sure. The "Sneak Attacks don't get multiplied on a critical" rule is obviously due to the writers not working out the probabilities properly. But them's the rules, so if you're doing something different, just be aware it's a house rule and be up front to your players about it.

Otherwise they might think it's the actual rule and get upset when a new DM goes by the book.

[Raezeman]

If you want spells without attack rolls to be able to crit, for example one with a reflex save, you can make it a crit if the victim rolls a 1 on the reflex save.

[Yuki Akuma]

Rolling a 1 on your Reflex save already has extra effects - all your possessions have to make saving throws or take damage, too.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Or tell them that "You chose casters. Ya know, the most powerful of class types. SUCK IT UP!"

[Chronos]

Also, luck happens. This session, the rogue happened to get lucky. Good for her. Maybe next time one of the other players will get lucky.

[Deophaun]

I'm kind of curious on how a "critical hit" would affect something like finger of death.

"He dies. Twice."

[lsfreak]

As said, damage spells allow attack rollsdamage spells that allow attacks rolls can crit. If you want, it wouldn't be out of line I don't think to allow AoE damage spells to also "crit" whenever the victim rolls a 1 on their save versus damage, dealing double (I've never even heard of someone actually using the item damage on failed rolls before), though be aware of anything your players have access to that lets you auto-roll a crit and how that would interact with AoEs.

For everything that's not doing damage? I'd say suck it up. You don't need stinking fog, haste, or charm to crit, they're already really good.

EDIT: I really messed up that strikethrough, fixed to something sane.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A minor note on the whole "sneak attacks don't multiply with crits:" if the rogue has the craven feat, since that is a flat damage boost, that damage would get multiplied while the dice remain unchanged.


Also, while casters are insanely powerful in the right hands, they also tend to have a terribly low optimiaztion floor, leading to ye old fireball-only wizards and healbot clerics.

[Sir Chuckles]

I'm kind of curious on how a "critical hit" would affect something like finger of death.

"He dies. Twice."

On something like that, I just say "He disintegrates. Good Job."
It can actually make some situations worse.

And yes, tell them to tone down the fireballs and become laser-rave dancer.

[Captnq]

His Strength modifier (Dexterity modifier if he's using Shadow Blade) is also modified, as a note.

And if the weapon is, say, flaming, you don't multiply the 2d6 fire damage. But if, on the other hand, you have a weapon enhancement crystal that just adds +2 fire damage, you would multiply that.

Confusing? Yes.

The basic rule is that all bonus damage in the form of dice isn't multiplied, while bonus damage in the form of flat modifiers is modified.

What basic rule is this?

I have read every book regarding combat and found nothing that supports this claim. The only thing that is multiplied is the base damage.

1. A sword does 1d6. Crit damage is x2.
I multiply 1d6 x 2

2. I have strength damage bonus +4
I multiple 1d6+4 x 2

3. I make the sword out of HIZAGKUUR. I do +1 electrical and +1 fire
I multiple 1d6+4 x 2 and apply the energy damage as energy damage completely separate from the main attack.

4. I add collision to my sword. That gives me +5 damage.
That damage is untyped. It adds to my base damage and is multipled.

5. I use a fingerblade. It adds 1d6 in the first round of combat to flatfooted foes.
It is actually negated by immunity to critical hits/sneak attack. Since sneak attack and critical hits specifically do not stack, this 1d6 is not multiplied if I crit.

6. I make my weapon merciful.
All damage types are turned into non-lethal damage. Therefore, the +1 Electrical and +1 fire are no longer energy damage, they are Non-lethal damage instead. Now I can add it to my base damage and multiply it if I critical.

7. I add flaming to my merciful weapon.
The +1d6 fire damage is turned into non-lethal and is now subject to critical multiplication.


If you have a source or book that states otherwise, I would be interested in reading it.

[Sir Chuckles]

What basic rule is this?

I have read every book regarding combat and found nothing that supports this claim. The only thing that is multiplied is the base damage.

The basic crital hit rules. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits)

Flat damage bonuses (Strength, +1 from magic) are multiplied.
EG:
+1 Short Sword, wielded by a guy with 12 Str.
1d6+2
It's a crit.
2d6+4.

Now it's a +1 Flaming Light Pick carried by the same Rogue.
1d4+1d6+2
Then a crit (x4 because it's a pick)
4d4+1d6+8
The 1d6 from the fire was NOT multiplied, the same would go for Sneak Attack damage. It would not be multiplied.

The formula for the pick example would be (4d4+8)+1d6, as on a critical you do not double/triple/whatever the first roll, you reroll, so it is not (1d4+2)x4+1d6.

[Curmudgeon]

I have read every book regarding combat and found nothing that supports this claim. The only thing that is multiplied is the base damage.

1. A sword does 1d6. Crit damage is x2.
I multiply 1d6 x 2
Well, no. You roll 1d6 twice, and add.
Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. You add everything that's not from dice each time (i.e., essentially you multiply all non-dice values).

[Yuki Akuma]

What basic rule is this?

I have read every book regarding combat and found nothing that supports this claim. The only thing that is multiplied is the base damage.

Right here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits)

Extra damage expressed as dice are not multiplied. Extra damage expressed as a flat bonus (such as from a least fire enhancement crystal or the Collision weapon property), therefore, is multiplied.

I'm unsure why you think the damage type matters. Why should Collision work but a least fire crystal not work?

[KillianHawkeye]

Though I think "Crits do multiple Sneak Attack" is a common house rule. Least I've seen it a lot. So you're in company if you use it.

I'd be willing to bet that your sample size is too small to be making such general statements of commonality.