Maho-Bujin and Maho-Tsukai

[Xuldarinar]

Two points of discussion, on two closely related classes from oriental adventures. The Maho-Bujin and the Maho-Tsukai.


The Maho-Bujin is a 10 level PrC with two simple entry requirements. Taint score 10, and to travel to the Festering Pit of Fu Leng. It provides no new proficiencies, Taint suppression (taint no longer applies to constitution and half only to wisdom), Crimson Road (additional melee attacks are broken down by 3 instead of 5. So instead of, at full BaB, +20/+15/+10/+5, you'd have +20/+17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2), The Shadow lands subtype, Death Knell, Unbound Corruption (1/2 taint to attack rolls), and DR 10/+1.

The Maho-Tsukai is a 20 level PrC. it provides arcane casting that advances at the rate of the wizard's, but casts as a sorcerer, using their taint score +10. To enter, one needs: +4 BaB, a taint score of 4, Concentration 8 and knowledge (shadowlands) 4, Ability to cast 1st level arcane or divine spells, and must have: Read maho writings, studies under another mayo-tsukai, or summon a shadowlands spirit. It provide proficiencies with simple weapons, taint suppression, blood component (all material and focus components are replaced with blood), Spell conversion (you can trade spellcasting levels to advance maho-tsukai's casting only. Spells known can be drawn from traded in class and maho-tsukai list), Maho Metamagic (more blood cost in place of a higher spell slot with meta magic), and level advancement (Will save: DC 10 + taint when attempting to take levels in another class. Failure means they take another level in Maho-Tsukai).



How good do these sound? I've not heard much, positive, discussion on them but they seem decent enough.

Also, given the prerequisites, could someone start as a 1st level Maho-Bujin or do they have to wait till 2nd?

[awa]

10 taint is instant lose control of your character. So its dm only

keep in mind as well that the shadow lands is basically hell a level 1 character is likely to die just walking to the pit even if no monsters try and get in his way and they will.

[Karnith]

How good do these sound? I've not heard much, positive, discussion on them but they seem decent enough.
Maho-Tsukai isn't the strongest Tainted spellcasting class (the others being Tainted Sorcerer and Tainted Scholar), but that's not saying much; it's still obscenely strong. One detail about Maho-Tsukai casting that some people miss is that it gets access to new spell levels at odd levels, meaning that it effectively speeds up a Sorcerer's spell progression. You also end up with more base spells known compared to a Sorcerer. Blood Component means that a lot of spells that might otherwise be prohibitively expensive can become worth using (hello Favorable Sacrifice). Tainted Metamagic is quite powerful in combination with Naberius's Faster Ability Healing and similar abilities, or when you've got a victim on-hand. The Maho-Tsukai spell list is pretty good, especially considering that it supplements another class list. And because of the way a Maho-Tsukai's Taint score functions as her casting stat, save DCs are easy to get absurdly high, as are bonus spells per day.

Also, small note: the Maho-Tsukai class only has fifteen levels, but can grant casting beyond that due to spell conversion.

[Xuldarinar]

10 taint is instant lose control of your character. So its dm only

keep in mind as well that the shadow lands is basically hell a level 1 character is likely to die just walking to the pit even if no monsters try and get in his way and they will.

I havent noticed where it says that, would you mind directing me to where it says that?

Granted. That is a good point. The odds of surviving the journey are long. Perhaps a teleportation spell would make it easier, but thats a situation of a higher level pc or npc doing something for a lower one.



Edit:



Maho-Tsukai isn't the strongest Tainted spellcasting classes (the others being Tainted Sorcerer and Tainted Scholar), but that's not saying much; it's an obscenely strong class. One detail about Maho-Tsukai casting that some people miss is that it gets access to new spell levels at odd levels, meaning that it effectively speeds up a Sorcerer's spell progression. You also end up with more base spells known compared to a Sorcerer. Blood Component means that a lot of spells that might otherwise be prohibitively expensive can become worth using (hello Favorable Sacrifice). Tainted Metamagic is quite powerful in combination with Naberius's Faster Ability Healing, or when you've got a victim on-hand. And because of the way a Maho-Tsukai's Taint score functions as her casting stat, save DCs are easy to get absurdly high, as are bonus spells per day.

Also, small note: the Maho-Tsukai class has fifteen levels, but can grant casting beyond that due to spell conversion.

That seems like a fair analysis, though one thing must be kept in mind. Since their maximum taint score is (Wis x 2) - 1. I agree that It isn't -as- broken, but it still is quite the strong class. In fact, I dare say it is one of the most balanced of the tainted spellcasting classes, is that fair to say?

[Karnith]

I havent noticed where it says that, would you mind directing me to where it says that?
Oriental Adventures, p. 235, though such a character could still be appropriate as a PC in an evil campaign.

[BWR]

My biggest problem with them was that they didn't really do a good job of reflecting the source material.
Maho-tsukai is really just a term for blood magic user in L5R. There are various specific techniques that enhance use of maho, and these are converted to d20 in many of the dual stat supplements, seemingly implicitly replacing the bujin and tsukai prestige classes.

Both classes get some nice abilities, but they are either things that should be part of the basic mechanics of maho (using blood to cast spells or power metamagic) or spread out and watered down and amputated compared to the original maho bujin school.

The original maho-bujin looks like this, edited for brevity.


Carve the Crimson Road
Receive additional attacks equal to the highest Honor amongst opponents, replacing any other extra attack techniques

Corruption Rewards
May use Wounds dealt as initiative total for following round.
[considering there were a number of other techniques that allowed gave you bonuses based on initiative score, or allowed you to trade initiative for e.g. attack and damage bonus, this could potentially be very powerful]

Devourer of Purity
May recover Wound Ranks equal to Honor Rank of enemy they bring to Down, out or Dead. Yes, a maho-bujin may torture someone to near death then let them heal to continually regain wounds.

Corruption has no bounds
Gain +Taint Rank k0 on all bugei skill rolls

Even steel lies
Invulnerability, can only be hurt by jade, crystal, obsidian or magic.

This was a pretty powerful school in 1e L5R. In d20 terms it's more like

CtCR: Gain extra attacks at your highest attack bonus equal to the highest Honor rank amongst your opponents.

Corruption Rewards: Add damage dealt to your initiative score for next round

Devourer of Purity: Whenever you bring an enemy to 0 hp or lower, you heal 10x their Honor rank. Alternatively, considering the amounts of damage one can easily deal in d20, 1/2 damage dealt might work better for giving the correct feeling.

Corruption has no bounds: Add Taint rank as bonus to all attack rolls, as well as Jump, Tumble, Swim, Ride, Knowledge (tactics)/Battle, Survival, Iaijutsu Focus,

Even steel lies: basically infinite DR/(jade, crystal, obsidian, magic weapons) - and magic weapons are very rare in L5R, so it's more like artifacts, and usable weapons of the other materials are only slightly less rare outside of the Crab clan. Your average samurai will have no chance against a creature with Invulnerability.

[Karnith]

That seems like a fair analysis, though one thing must be kept in mind. Since their maximum taint score is (Wis x 2) - 1. I agree that It isn't -as- broken, but it still is quite the strong class. In fact, I dare say it is one of the most balanced of the tainted spellcasting classes, is that fair to say?
It's probably the most "balanced" of the Tainted casters (though it has some weirdness that the others don't), sure, but I stress that saying so is akin to saying that a particular nuke is the weakest of the bunch. By the time a character can actually take their first level of Maho-Tsukai, Shugenja (and other primary divine casters, if you use OA content in other games) are able to manage Taint with spells, and after another level or two other casters can as well. With even a modest Wisdom score, a Maho-Tsukai can throw out spells with save DCs in the high 20s or even 30s at level 6. It speeds up Sorcerer and Shugenja casting, it gives you free metamagic, and it removes the cost for expensive spells. It's frankly one of the strongest PrCs in the game, even if it does lag behind the other Tainted casters.

[thethird]

I used Maho-Bujin in the past Iron Chef with the lost crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16263075&postcount=269). I think Maho-Bujin is a rather cool class.

[Xuldarinar]

I don't know why, but a build just occurred to me. Least for up to 15th level.

Duskblade 13/Maho-Bujin 1/Maho-Tsukai 1

[BWR]

I used Maho-Bujin in the past Iron Chef with the lost crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16263075&postcount=269). I think Maho-Bujin is a rather cool class.

What Crab would specialize in iaijutsu? And no way would any Crab ancestor give a Lost character his blessing, and anyone learning the maho-bujin techniques would count, even if not Lost mechanically (just read the description what you need to do to learn the maho-bujin techs - how you do that and not become Lost is beyond me).

Also, this would be a Damned character, meaning his companions are either other Damned, or their Kuni minders. No way would he be allowed in the Empire proper.

Winter wolves as mounts? Not in Rokugan.

[Vedhin]

How good do these sound? I've not heard much, positive, discussion on them but they seem decent enough.

Maho-Bujin makes an awesome 1 level dip, if you don't become a NPC. The rest of the class is fairly lackluster.



Also, given the prerequisites, could someone start as a 1st level Maho-Bujin or do they have to wait till 2nd?

Yes. Surviving the trip to the Festering Pit is a challenge though.