Gotta get em all! (Item/Gold Style)

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically, what are the best ways you guys know of to gain the most amount of items possible and/or gold possible? Like so you're far above WBL?

This could be in the middle of play or at character creation.

[Flickerdart]

It's not hard to break WBL by using any Instantaneous-duration spell that creates objects, and then selling those objects. You just need a market.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It's not hard to break WBL by using any Instantaneous-duration spell that creates objects, and then selling those objects. You just need a market.

Which spells are these exactly?

[Norin]

Wall of Iron, Wall of Salt, Minor\Major Creation, etc.

[Brookshw]

+ fabricate

[Eldest]

Basically, what are the best ways you guys know of to gain the most amount of items possible and/or gold possible? Like so you're far above WBL?

This could be in the middle of play or at character creation.

Lowest level, ladder->ten foot poles and firewood. Craft clubs, sell for firewood. Lesser Orb of Acid.

Higher level, Wall of Salt/Wall of Iron.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Basically just create Iron/Salt and sell them?
How much would those sell for?

[Eldest]

Basically just create Iron/Salt and sell them?
How much would those sell for?

1sp/pound of iron, 5gp/pound of salt. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm)

[Gwazi Magnum]

1sp/pound of iron, 5gp/pound of salt. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm)

How many pounds of iron and salt does the spells produce though?

[Deophaun]

A single casting of fabricate can net you over a million gp.

[Gwazi Magnum]

A single casting of fabricate can net you over a million gp.

How does that happen?

[Norin]

You can find a salty "get rich quick" post right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10881664&postcount=24).

[Deophaun]

How does that happen?
First, when cast on minerals, fabricate affects 1 cubic ft/level.

From draconomicon, we know there are 12,000 coins in a cubic foot. We're going to stick to coins because they're easy to come by, but if you had a solid block of metal, you would arguably have more value to work with.

The metal we'll be using is platinum. So our base value is 120,000 gp per cubic foot.

When crafting, the value of the end product is 3X the cost of materials, and if we're making trade goods (like statuary), the product is treated as currency and so sells for full value. So we'll gross 360,000 gp/cubic foot by turning these coins into statues, which means we can net 240,000 gp/level.

Fabricate is a 5th level spell. Assuming a wizard, it comes online at level 9, which means at the lowest caster level, you can net 2,160,000 gp.

Now, obviously, you aren't going to have the necessary 1,080,000 gp on hand by then. But, as the most powerful force in the world is compound interest, you'll be able to build up to that rather quickly.

[Gwazi Magnum]

First, when cast on minerals, fabricate affects 1 cubic ft/level.

From draconomicon, we know there are 12,000 coins in a cubic foot. We're going to stick to coins because they're easy to come by, but if you had a solid block of metal, you would arguably have more value to work with.

The metal we'll be using is platinum. So our base value is 120,000 gp per cubic foot.

When crafting, the value of the end product is 3X the cost of materials, and if we're making trade goods (like statuary), the product is treated as currency and so sells for full value. So we'll gross 360,000 gp/cubic foot by turning these coins into statues, which means we can net 240,000 gp/level.

Fabricate is a 5th level spell. Assuming a wizard, it comes online at level 9, which means at the lowest caster level, you can net 2,160,000 gp.

Now, obviously, you aren't going to have the necessary 1,080,000 gp on hand by then. But, as the most powerful force in the world is compound interest, you'll be able to build up to that rather quickly.

So I basically then sell the statues and repeat the process?

Cool. :)

Sounds like Wizard is the way to go.

[Red Fel]

Sounds like Wizard is the way to go.

It generally is.

[Eldest]

First, when cast on minerals, fabricate affects 1 cubic ft/level.

From draconomicon, we know there are 12,000 coins in a cubic foot. We're going to stick to coins because they're easy to come by, but if you had a solid block of metal, you would arguably have more value to work with.

The metal we'll be using is platinum. So our base value is 120,000 gp per cubic foot.

When crafting, the value of the end product is 3X the cost of materials, and if we're making trade goods (like statuary), the product is treated as currency and so sells for full value. So we'll gross 360,000 gp/cubic foot by turning these coins into statues, which means we can net 240,000 gp/level.

Fabricate is a 5th level spell. Assuming a wizard, it comes online at level 9, which means at the lowest caster level, you can net 2,160,000 gp.

Now, obviously, you aren't going to have the necessary 1,080,000 gp on hand by then. But, as the most powerful force in the world is compound interest, you'll be able to build up to that rather quickly.

Actually, per that same link I sent, a pound of platinum is 500 gp, and a cubic foot is 1,330 pounds. So it'd be 665,000 gp per cubic foot of Platinum. (Fyi, the total amount of platinum mined on earth to date is about 25 cubic feet. There's a reason it's this expensive.) Then you start to make things with it.

Edit: However, Fabricate does not actually let you change something from one material to another.

[Radar]

Once you can afford it, buy a Candle of Invocation to summon an Efreet, who will grant you three wishes, one of which will be another Candle of Invocation. It's the start of the quickest ascencion scheme, but we don't have to go that far. An infinite chain of wishes is generaly useful and profitable, but Wish has a hard cap on wealth given and the aforementioned Fabricate spell doesn't (CL can be boosted sky-high). It has the advantage of giving you access to self-picked magic items even if there is no magic-mart available.

From less cheese ways, Artificer with proper feats is a very efficient wealth-multiplier. You can also delegate the crafting duty to a Dedicated Wright and there is a Quill Of Scribing to take care of scribing scrolls. Thing you want to craft first is a self-reseting trap of Distilled Joy, so you don't have to spend your own XP on all those items.

[Gwazi Magnum]

From less cheese ways, Artificer with proper feats is a very efficient wealth-multiplier. You can also delegate the crafting duty to a Dedicated Wright and there is a Quill Of Scribing to take care of scribing scrolls. Thing you want to craft first is a self-reseting trap of Distilled Joy, so you don't have to spend your own XP on all those items.

Now with Distilled Joy I've been wondering.

First it's been while since I read through Artificer so I'd need a reminder on how the trap works.

But secondly, is there an easy way to set up a trap and have it easily explained/make sense character wise without it coming across as cheese?

[Deophaun]

Actually, per that same link I sent, a pound of platinum is 500 gp, and a cubic foot is 1,330 pounds.
I'm curious where you came up with that value, as it's too on the nose with real life to be taken from a rulebook. We know that, as far as D&D is concerned, copper, silver, gold, and platinum all have the same density (their coins weigh the same and take up the same amount of space). So I have to ask where you're getting that a cubic foot of any of those D&D metals weighs the same as a real-life cubic foot of platinum.


But secondly, is there an easy way to set up a trap and have it easily explained/make sense character wise without it coming across as cheese?
Not really. "Self resetting trap" is basically a synonym for cheese.

And fabricate has its logistical problems. For starters: where are you selling these statues that have that amount of wealth to spare? This could be of great concern if the "a product" wording is interpreted to mean "one object," as you would have to find a single buyer that could spend >3,000,000 gp on an art object.

Another problem is that it is possible to determine whether an object has been magically created/manipulated, although I forget what skill allows that (I thought it was Appraise). Some merchants might not wish to deal in works of "art" that were created through magic and not by humanoid hands.

[Radar]

Now with Distilled Joy I've been wondering.

First it's been while since I read through Artificer so I'd need a reminder on how the trap works.

But secondly, is there an easy way to set up a trap and have it easily explained/make sense character wise without it coming across as cheese?
It doesn't have to be a trap. It could be an eternal wand (but this would limit it to three uses per day) or a generic action-activated magic item.

The only advantage of a trap, is that it doesn't require any skill to be activated, so you don't have to do it all yourself - just set up a great party and embed preassure plate activating the trap into the floor.

As for it all not coming off as cheese, there might be a bit of a problem there. You might be able to find a valid reason for a crafting XP accumulation scheme, but it will heavily depend on the campaign setting and other factors.

[Gwazi Magnum]

And fabricate has its logistical problems. For starters: where are you selling these statues that have that amount of wealth to spare? This could be of great concern if the "a product" wording is interpreted to mean "one object," as you would have to find a single buyer that could spend >3,000,000 gp on an art object.

Another problem is that it is possible to determine whether an object has been magically created/manipulated, although I forget what skill allows that (I thought it was Appraise). Some merchants might not wish to deal in works of "art" that were created through magic and not by humanoid hands.

Ok, are there ways to enjoy benefits like distilled joy then in a reasonable and character appropriate manner that still provides enough exp to be a substantial amount in item creation?

I don't think the DM we have would think that far ahead in terms of selling stuff though.
But the 3 million thing would be a red flag that we couldn't sell on the spot though either.

[Gwazi Magnum]

It doesn't have to be a trap. It could be an eternal wand (but this would limit it to three uses per day) or a generic action-activated magic item.

The only advantage of a trap, is that it doesn't require any skill to be activated, so you don't have to do it all yourself - just set up a great party and embed preassure plate activating the trap into the floor.

As for it all not coming off as cheese, there might be a bit of a problem there. You might be able to find a valid reason for a crafting XP accumulation scheme, but it will heavily depend on the campaign setting and other factors.

Most likely it will be an evil campaign.

In my case specifically, the character will probably be a merchant so he'd have a base of operations to return to.

Though I'm curious on the wand though, how effective would a wand of distilled joy be? And would it be worth the crafting cost of making the wand?

[Captnq]

I have an easy solution to things like this. An inevitable (the multiverse's rules enforcer) shows up and smacks you upside the head and informs you that you cannot advance in level until you get rid of the extra gold and get under your WBL. Also, you have to get rid of it in a fashion that is "approved", then the inevitable goes away. It's up to the player to figure out what's "approved". He'll know he's gotten rid of enough and in a fashion the universe approves when he finally starts getting xps again. Got rid of it in an unapproved fashion? Sucks to be you, pal. Shouldn't had created 3 billion gold pieces out of thin air.

The universe doesn't like cheaters.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I have an easy solution to things like this. An inevitable (the multiverse's rules enforcer) shows up and smacks you upside the head and informs you that you cannot advance in level until you get rid of the extra gold and get under your WBL. Also, you have to get rid of it in a fashion that is "approved", then the inevitable goes away. It's up to the player to figure out what's "approved". He'll know he's gotten rid of enough and in a fashion the universe approves when he finally starts getting xps again. Got rid of it in an unapproved fashion? Sucks to be you, pal. Shouldn't had created 3 billion gold pieces out of thin air.

The universe doesn't like cheaters.

1. Everything done here is legal & under RAW. No cheating/rule breaking.
2. You're using Diam Fiat which is basically a DM abusing their powe
In other words, the kind of DM's that shouldn't being DM'ing.

[Shalist]

Good to see someone's already mentioned craft: minting :P

There's a 2nd level spell, 'unseen crafter,' that creates a crafting servant which scales drastically with level, as it uses your skill ranks + casting ability modifier for crafting checks, and last days/level. It'll never hold a candle to 'fabricate,' and is generally somewhat suboptimal, but seems worth a mention as a marginally more tolerable and more interesting alternative.

The apprentice/mentor feat snags you a 10% discount on buying raw materials (0.33 * .9 => 0.30), and mercantile background lets you sell non-trade goods for 75% instead of 50%. With poisons, you measure your progress in gold instead of silver, and may only pay half for the raw materials (0.30 => 0.15), so pick your poison (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63130) based on what DCs you can hit and minimizing 'leftovers' and what not.

Bonus points if your DM lets you make eternal wands of unseen crafter that use your skill ranks and ability modifier for their checks :P

For instance, at level 4 and with 16 charisma, you can maintain 16 unseen crafters with +10 to their checks, each producing 2 doses/week of 'large scorpion poison' (DC 20 to craft, 200g/dose) for 240g/crafter/week of profit, or 3840g/wk total profit.

At 20th level / 28 charisma, each of your 1180 crafters (59/day using 2nd - 9th slots, each lasting 21 days) would have +32 to their checks, for 8 doses/week of huge centipede poison (DC 20, 210g/dose), for 1008g/crafter/week of profit, or 1,189,440g/week total profit.

Once the poison market has been suitably flooded, you could still generate 176.4g/week each of weapons/armor/alchemical goodies/woven baskets/etc. (79.38g/crafter/week profit, 93668.4g/week total profit); if demand starts to dry up with those as well, clearly its just your DM's way of hinting that he wants you to instigate a few wars to keep business booming on all fronts.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Good to see someone's already mentioned craft: minting :P

There's a 2nd level spell, 'unseen crafter,' that creates a crafting servant which scales drastically with level, as it uses your skill ranks + casting ability modifier for crafting checks, and last days/level. It'll never hold a candle to 'fabricate,' and is generally somewhat suboptimal, but seems worth a mention as a marginally more tolerable and more interesting alternative.

The apprentice/mentor feat snags you a 10% discount on buying raw materials (0.33 * .9 => 0.30), and mercantile background lets you sell non-trade goods for 75% instead of 50%. With poisons, you measure your progress in gold instead of silver, and may only pay half for the raw materials (0.30 => 0.15), so pick your poison (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63130) based on what DCs you can hit and minimizing 'leftovers' and what not.

Bonus points if your DM lets you make eternal wands of unseen crafter that use your skill ranks and ability modifier for their checks :P

For instance, at level 4 and with 16 charisma, you can maintain 16 unseen crafters with +10 to their checks, each producing 2 doses/week of 'large scorpion poison' (DC 20 to craft, 200g/dose) for 240g/crafter/week of profit, or 3840g/wk total profit.

At 20th level / 28 charisma, each of your 1180 crafters (59/day using 2nd - 9th slots, each lasting 21 days) would have +32 to their checks, for 8 doses/week of huge centipede poison (DC 20, 210g/dose), for 1008g/crafter/week of profit, or 1,189,440g/week total profit.

Once the poison market has been suitably flooded, you could still generate 176.4g/week each of weapons/armor/alchemical goodies/woven baskets/etc. (79.38g/crafter/week profit, 93668.4g/week total profit); if demand starts to dry up with those as well, clearly its just your DM's way of hinting that he wants you to instigate a few wars to keep business booming on all fronts.

So I basically summon my own workers? Nice. :P

For the Merchant Feat. I'm well aware of it's selling capabilities, but I'm curious as to if it doubles up at all for magic item creation? Would it ever help reduce the cost of items at all?

[Shalist]

I'd recommend the Complete Cost Reduction Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0), which lists nearly all the feats and tricks for reducing the cost / exp cost / time for crafting items and magic items.

Regarding mercantile background, you can use it + haggle to buy a +1 tome for 18562.5 gold, and feed it to your artificer for 5100 craft reserve exp (which works out to ~3.64g/exp), if your DM isn't fond of thought bottles / liquid pain factories / etc. Depending on your artificer's build, that much craft exp could last for most of the year, if not longer.

[Radar]

Most likely it will be an evil campaign.

In my case specifically, the character will probably be a merchant so he'd have a base of operations to return to.

Though I'm curious on the wand though, how effective would a wand of distilled joy be? And would it be worth the crafting cost of making the wand?
If you're going to be evil, then you might not enjoy the benefits of Distilled Joy, but there obviously is an evil counterpart in the form of Liquid Pain. A normal wand of such a spell would use more XP to create, then it would give back, since a single casting gives very little. You might be able to get ahead with all the available cost reducers, but the efficiency would still be low.

As for how to set up the XP gathering scheme, the main reason for an evil character to be interested in such an operation is obviously greed and/or lust for power, the means may vary.

If you are eligible for the Distilled Joy anyway, you can use your surplus gold to improve your PR and host great parties on a regular basis. Since you want to gain something more tangible then respect from all your actions, reasons for setting up traps of Distilled Joy are quite obvious. If you don't want to use traps, then you might want to invest in minions, who will cast the spell for you. There is the slight problem of 1 day casting time, but if you aren't the one held up for the whole day, it should not be a problem.

If you have to resort to Liquid Pain, then your city of operation surely has guards and they surely have a dungeon for hardened criminals. You could strike a deal with them, to extract the pain, they inflict on the inmates anyway.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'd recommend the Complete Cost Reduction Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0), which lists nearly all the feats and tricks for reducing the cost / exp cost / time for crafting items and magic items.

Regarding mercantile background, you can use it + haggle to buy a +1 tome for 18562.5 gold, and feed it to your artificer for 5100 craft reserve exp (which works out to ~3.64g/exp), if your DM isn't fond of thought bottles / liquid pain factories / etc. Depending on your artificer's build, that much craft exp could last for most of the year, if not longer.

I already looked at the Guide to the point I craft for 19% of the cost now. :P

Haggling I like and will work in.
However, I don't want to go cheesy with harnessing XP from my own stuff for free gold.
I want it to be at least a bit fair.


If you're going to be evil, then you might not enjoy the benefits of Distilled Joy, but there obviously is an evil counterpart in the form of Liquid Pain. A normal wand of such a spell would use more XP to create, then it would give back, since a single casting gives very little. You might be able to get ahead with all the available cost reducers, but the efficiency would still be low.

As for how to set up the XP gathering scheme, the main reason for an evil character to be interested in such an operation is obviously greed and/or lust for power, the means may vary.

If you are eligible for the Distilled Joy anyway, you can use your surplus gold to improve your PR and host great parties on a regular basis. Since you want to gain something more tangible then respect from all your actions, reasons for setting up traps of Distilled Joy are quite obvious. If you don't want to use traps, then you might want to invest in minions, who will cast the spell for you. There is the slight problem of 1 day casting time, but if you aren't the one held up for the whole day, it should not be a problem.

If you have to resort to Liquid Pain, then your city of operation surely has guards and they surely have a dungeon for hardened criminals. You could strike a deal with them, to extract the pain, they inflict on the inmates anyway.

Maybe. Seems like an interesting idea.
How expensive is it to set up such a trap in a prison?

Also, I'm also looking at dark craft XP for items.

[Radar]

Maybe. Seems like an interesting idea.
How expensive is it to set up such a trap in a prison?
Trap creation rules say it will be about 1120 XP and 14000 gold per trap before cost reductions plus bribes. Efficiency depends on the frequency of use obviously, but it pays for itself sooner or later anyway.

[TuggyNE]

1. Everything done here is legal & under RAW. No cheating/rule breaking.
2. You're using Diam Fiat which is basically a DM abusing their powe
In other words, the kind of DM's that shouldn't being DM'ing.

A DM who uses a modicum of fiat when necessary to bring the game back into balance as necessary is a competent DM; a DM who plays strictly by RAW is a DM who is deluded about balance, or just doesn't care about it at all. And, because WBL abuse is relatively trivial and actually effectively breaks important game rules and assumptions, it's not out of place to say "no, that doesn't work" when needed.

Preferably, of course, some more involved solution would show up, but in a pinch, a WBL Inevitable is not the worst idea I've heard.