Merchant Character?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Partly an extension of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315029) thread here.

However I'm basically wondering how to make a character whose main focus in making gold and profits, and how this can be incorporated into role play.

Currently a Fabricating, Salt converting Wizard looks strong.
Wizard also helps cause I can then craft items for real cheap.

However, I'm wondering if there are also other approaches that can be taken?
Or how to specifically build the wizard for maximum profits.

I was also looking at the Business Rules in DMG 2, but the return gold on it seem horrid. Am I reading it wrong or is it really just a bad route to be going?

[Zonugal]

Have you taken a look at the Merchant Prince (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060308a&page=4) prestige class? Check out its adaptation section on the bottom.

You could do a Rogue 1/Wizard or Artificer 5/Merchant Prince 5 type of build?

[D20ragon]

shabang. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170912)

It's homebrew,and tier one,but a better moneymaker is not to be had.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Have you taken a look at the Merchant Prince (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060308a&page=4) prestige class? Check out its adaptation section on the bottom.

You could do a Rogue 1/Wizard or Artificer 5/Merchant Prince 5 type of build?

I saw the class before but missed the adaption.
That's just awesome... :/

Is there a way to get the skills I need to be class skills though without the rogue level?


shabang. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170912)

It's homebrew,and tier one,but a better moneymaker is not to be had.

Maybe, I'd have to ask the DM first though.

[Zonugal]

I saw the class before but missed the adaption.
That's just awesome... :/

Is there a way to get the skills I need to be class skills though without the rogue level?

Indeed! The Enchanter variant's Social Proficiency ability for Wizards will get you Bluff, Diplomacy, Profession, and Sense Motive as class skills.

I still think a level in Rogue with the Craven feat would add so much flavor to the character but if you wanted to go basic a build like: Human Enchanter 5/Merchant Prince 5 using the prestige classes variant would work perfectly as you won't lose anything via Wizard levels.

[Ansem]

Artificer with Mercantile background.
Basically you're a Jew but you make money and make **** all the time.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Indeed! The Enchanter variant's Social Proficiency ability for Wizards will get you Bluff, Diplomacy, Profession, and Sense Motive as class skills.

I still think a level in Rogue with the Craven feat would add so much flavor to the character but if you wanted to go basic a build like: Human Enchanter 5/Merchant Prince 5 using the prestige classes variant would work perfectly as you won't lose anything via Wizard levels.

What about Appraise?

As for the Rogue Level.
If I were to go wizard it's basically a man who learned to use magic because he saw the profits and power involved with it. Not sure how much backstabbing in combat would mix with that.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Artificer with Mercantile background.
Basically you're a Jew but you make money and make **** all the time.

I remember playing an Artificer before.

How would it up with a Wizard for gold though?

I know Artificer has it's reserve and free feats.
But a Wizard has stronger/better spells, and there's easy ways to gain more feats from chaos shuffle.

[Zonugal]

What about Appraise?

Oh, forgot about appraise. Apprentice (craftsman) will grab you appraise as a class skill with some other nice benefits.


As for the Rogue Level.
If I were to go wizard it's basically a man who learned to use magic because he saw the profits and power involved with it. Not sure how much backstabbing in combat would mix with that.

When I envision a Merchant Prince, a master of commerce and financial power, I see someone who knows the darker-side of power and Rogue jumps out to me as that. The first level of Rogue would also save you a needed feat on Apprentice (Craftsman) and with Sneak Attack & Craven you can drop a 1d6+class level attack on a foe who under-estimates you during a business dealing.

But it is totally up to you. A pure Enchanter/Merchant Prince is a solid build.


I remember playing an Artificer before.

How would it up with a Wizard for gold though?

I know Artificer has it's reserve and free feats.
But a Wizard has stronger/better spells, and there's easy ways to gain more feats from chaos shuffle.

One of the main advantages with Artificer over Wizard is Retain Essence. You can drain the xp out of found magic items, which adds another edge to your business dealings.

But being able to cast spells is a really nice advantage so...

[Gwazi Magnum]

Also just dawned on me.
The main point of the Merchant Prestige class is to run a business.
Are there good/easy ways to boost the business and make it pump up a good amount of money?

[Zonugal]

Also just dawned on me.
The main point of the Merchant Prestige class is to run a business.
Are there good/easy ways to boost the business and make it pump up a good amount of money?

Get a custom item of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a).

[Red Fel]

Also just dawned on me.
The main point of the Merchant Prestige class is to run a business.
Are there good/easy ways to boost the business and make it pump up a good amount of money?

But that's just the thing. Could you make money at a profession or running a business? Of course. But it would never equal the fortune you could make being an adventurer. That's why so many characters become adventurers in the first place - fortune and glory, my friend, fortune and glory!

[Gwazi Magnum]

Oh, forgot about appraise. Apprentice (craftsman) will grab you appraise as a class skill with some other nice benefits.

True, thanks. :)


When I envision a Merchant Prince, a master of commerce and financial power, I see someone who knows the darker-side of power and Rogue jumps out to me as that. The first level of Rogue would also save you a needed feat on Apprentice (Craftsman) and with Sneak Attack & Craven you can drop a 1d6+class level attack on a foe who under-estimates you during a business dealing.

But it is totally up to you. A pure Enchanter/Merchant Prince is a solid build.

Personally I see a spellcaster having far better ways of dealing with someone who underestimates them than a knife to the back. Hell they can meteor entire cities. :P


One of the main advantages with Artificer over Wizard is Retain Essence. You can drain the xp out of found magic items, which adds another edge to your business dealings.

But being able to cast spells is a really nice advantage so...

That's true :/
Though most of artificers bonuses wouldn't progress with the Merchant Class, while almost everything a Wizard has would.

I guess it's basically a matter of:

1. How useful is running a business?
2. How useful are the stronger wizard spells?

Lastly, this character would start at level 8. So I'd hate waiting even longer for spells by using an Artificer. Unless if artificer had even better means of making cash that is.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Get a custom item of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a).

Except it's not a skill check exactly. :/
I'm not sure if that would work.


But that's just the thing. Could you make money at a profession or running a business? Of course. But it would never equal the fortune you could make being an adventurer. That's why so many characters become adventurers in the first place - fortune and glory, my friend, fortune and glory!

True, but it's not a simple profession check.
It's running an entire business/monopoly.

Ex: Gustavo in Breaking Bad.
He didn't adventure but he sure as hell was raking in the cash.

[Svata]

Artificer with Mercantile background.
Basically you're a Jew but you make money and make **** all the time.

Dude. Religous/Cultural stereotyping is NOT COOL.

[Red Fel]

True, but it's not a simple profession check.
It's running an entire business/monopoly.

Ex: Gustavo in Breaking Bad.
He didn't adventure but he sure as hell was raking in the cash.

But that's over a period of time. It's how businesses work - they generate wealth over an extended period, during which time you must be present to oversee operations. No business in the D&D universe is so massive that it can generate millions on a daily basis.

Consider someone who owns a massive lumber operation with a royal charter. He owns the forests, he employs cheap serf labor, he harvests and processes the lumber in his own factories, and he controls the caravans that transport the wood to marketplaces across the continent. He has to be constantly going over the books, the accounts, the orders, the invoices, and so forth - it's a full time job. And how much do you think he's making on a monthly basis, after expenses? A few hundred gp? A few thousand?

How much does an adventuring party make off of a single dragon's hoard? And that's just the final encounter; not to mention anything carried by the mooks they kill off on their way to the big bad.

Heck, even if you're not looking at raiding the dragon's lair, think about how a mercenary hired by the crown would be paid. Think about a wealthy merchant's bodyguard for one trip, or a "problem solver" hired by a local noble. Hazard pay is good pay, and it's pure profit - adventurers don't have to pay salaries, or taxes, or incidental expenses (apart from repairs and resurrections).

And think about WBL for a minute. By level 10, you are carrying around on your person more fortune than most NPCs, including some nobles, will ever see in their lifetimes (excluding the value of land and such).

Consider, for example, the stories of legendary arms or armor. In Weapons of Legacy (and Tome of Battle), for instance, is the story of Desert Wind scimitar. The story basically tells of a merchant of obscene levels of wealth, and what did he do? He spent his entire fortune to make a sword, which an adventurer might find as part of a random pile of loot. Consider that contrast for a moment. A merchant who built a trade empire on rare spell components across the planes, his entire fortune is worth this sword. To an adventurer, it's a cute trinket.

Tl;dr: Adventurers are loaded.

[Morithias]

Tl;dr: Adventurers are loaded.

Mainly because no DM ever does anything like upkeep or taxes.

[Red Fel]

Mainly because no DM ever does anything like upkeep or taxes.

To be fair, adventurers generally wouldn't have to pay taxes. In a medieval setting, taxation was effectively rent paid by serfs to their landlords in exchange for the right to live on and work the land, and dues paid by nobles to the crown in exchange for their title and right to own land. (Gross oversimplification.) Adventurers, being traveling murderhobos, do not own or live on land; they would not pay such taxes (and how would one collect them?). They might have to pay to enter a city, or stay in an inn; they might have to start paying taxes if they become landholders or nobles; they might even continue to pay taxes simply out of habit if they started with an "on the farm" backstory; but otherwise, they don't generally pay taxes.

[Prime32]

A permanent teleportation circle or two would be of great help for imports and exports. For the paperwork end of things, there are spells that let you instantly read or copy text.

[Gwazi Magnum]

But that's over a period of time. It's how businesses work - they generate wealth over an extended period, during which time you must be present to oversee operations. No business in the D&D universe is so massive that it can generate millions on a daily basis.

Consider someone who owns a massive lumber operation with a royal charter. He owns the forests, he employs cheap serf labor, he harvests and processes the lumber in his own factories, and he controls the caravans that transport the wood to marketplaces across the continent. He has to be constantly going over the books, the accounts, the orders, the invoices, and so forth - it's a full time job. And how much do you think he's making on a monthly basis, after expenses? A few hundred gp? A few thousand?

How much does an adventuring party make off of a single dragon's hoard? And that's just the final encounter; not to mention anything carried by the mooks they kill off on their way to the big bad.

Heck, even if you're not looking at raiding the dragon's lair, think about how a mercenary hired by the crown would be paid. Think about a wealthy merchant's bodyguard for one trip, or a "problem solver" hired by a local noble. Hazard pay is good pay, and it's pure profit - adventurers don't have to pay salaries, or taxes, or incidental expenses (apart from repairs and resurrections).

And think about WBL for a minute. By level 10, you are carrying around on your person more fortune than most NPCs, including some nobles, will ever see in their lifetimes (excluding the value of land and such).

Consider, for example, the stories of legendary arms or armor. In Weapons of Legacy (and Tome of Battle), for instance, is the story of Desert Wind scimitar. The story basically tells of a merchant of obscene levels of wealth, and what did he do? He spent his entire fortune to make a sword, which an adventurer might find as part of a random pile of loot. Consider that contrast for a moment. A merchant who built a trade empire on rare spell components across the planes, his entire fortune is worth this sword. To an adventurer, it's a cute trinket.

Tl;dr: Adventurers are loaded.

I get that in reality.

But are the mechanics of it in DMG 2 really that awful?

[Gwazi Magnum]

A permanent teleportation circle or two would be of great help for imports and exports. For the paperwork end of things, there are spells that let you instantly read or copy text.

I get that in a business sense.

But mechanic wise there's no profit bonus modifier for such a thing.
Which leaves to PC direct loot profit, where I have to ask why do that?
They'll just get to town themselves anyways.

[Morithias]

Have you taken a look at the Merchant Prince (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060308a&page=4) prestige class? Check out its adaptation section on the bottom.

You could do a Rogue 1/Wizard or Artificer 5/Merchant Prince 5 type of build?

How the hell are you getting into the merchant prince at that point. You need 5 feats. (Skill focus, negotiator, business savvy, favored in guild, item creation feat).

[Gwazi Magnum]

How the hell are you getting into the merchant prince at that point. You need 5 feats. (Skill focus, negotiator, business savvy, favored in guild, item creation feat).

Flaws = 2
Levels (1 & 3) = 2
Human = 1

Then we can go Chaos Shuffle with armor proficiency, Fighter class, elf weapon proficiency if you want to get a little cheesy.

[Morithias]

Flaws = 2
Levels (1 & 3) = 2
Human = 1

Then we can go Chaos Shuffle with armor proficiency, Fighter class, elf weapon proficiency if you want to get a little cheesy.

So basically you have to hope your DM is using a variant or cheese the hell out of it.

Yeah...Merchant Prince, despite being something I've wanted to run in a game for YEARS, is something that just well....never works out.

You'll spec up a merchant, and the player next to you will spec an artificer and mock you for the rest of the campaign.

Or worse the DM will.

[Zonugal]

But that's over a period of time. It's how businesses work - they generate wealth over an extended period, during which time you must be present to oversee operations. No business in the D&D universe is so massive that it can generate millions on a daily basis.

Consider someone who owns a massive lumber operation with a royal charter. He owns the forests, he employs cheap serf labor, he harvests and processes the lumber in his own factories, and he controls the caravans that transport the wood to marketplaces across the continent. He has to be constantly going over the books, the accounts, the orders, the invoices, and so forth - it's a full time job. And how much do you think he's making on a monthly basis, after expenses? A few hundred gp? A few thousand?

How much does an adventuring party make off of a single dragon's hoard? And that's just the final encounter; not to mention anything carried by the mooks they kill off on their way to the big bad.

Heck, even if you're not looking at raiding the dragon's lair, think about how a mercenary hired by the crown would be paid. Think about a wealthy merchant's bodyguard for one trip, or a "problem solver" hired by a local noble. Hazard pay is good pay, and it's pure profit - adventurers don't have to pay salaries, or taxes, or incidental expenses (apart from repairs and resurrections).

And think about WBL for a minute. By level 10, you are carrying around on your person more fortune than most NPCs, including some nobles, will ever see in their lifetimes (excluding the value of land and such).

Consider, for example, the stories of legendary arms or armor. In Weapons of Legacy (and Tome of Battle), for instance, is the story of Desert Wind scimitar. The story basically tells of a merchant of obscene levels of wealth, and what did he do? He spent his entire fortune to make a sword, which an adventurer might find as part of a random pile of loot. Consider that contrast for a moment. A merchant who built a trade empire on rare spell components across the planes, his entire fortune is worth this sword. To an adventurer, it's a cute trinket.

Tl;dr: Adventurers are loaded.

Safety.

It is monumentally safer to run a business and slowly accumulate wealth than climbing into a dungeon and fighting for your life.

[Zonugal]

How the hell are you getting into the merchant prince at that point. You need 5 feats. (Skill focus, negotiator, business savvy, favored in guild, item creation feat).

I guess the build is a bit stuffy.

Something like this should work:
Human Rogue 1/Enchanter 5/Merchant Prince 5
Negotiator [1st], Skill Focus: Profession (Merchant) [Human], Scribe Scroll [Wiz1], Favored in Guild [3rd], Business Savvy [6th]


Yeah...Merchant Prince, despite being something I've wanted to run in a game for YEARS, is something that just well....never works out.

You'll spec up a merchant, and the player next to you will spec an artificer and mock you for the rest of the campaign.

Or worse the DM will.

Using the variant Merchant Prince found in the adaptation section on top of a Wizard is a pure profit build. You lose nothing except for a bunch of feats, which is a steep entry fee, but in contrast to any martial character you are still a Wizard.

[Morithias]

I totally forgot Scribe Scroll is an item creation feat.

I feel like a total idiot now.

Oh and BTW.

Is there a way for wizards to get domains?

Because the Commerce domain gives a +10 competence bonus to "profession checks made to make a living".

[Gwazi Magnum]

So... I'm getting to work on the character now.

It's going to be a Kobold Sorcerer named Stam Sal.
Basically the concept is to be an effective merchant and at the same time be able to craft magic items really cheap, so he can profit or give it to party members for next to nothing. The Merchant job is really just to increase the experience and gold he has at his disposal to be making the items with.

Taking advantage of the age bonuses and the +3 sorcerer levels.
He'll also be taking the Spellhoard variant so the sorcerer levels are now wizard levels.

So essentially... I'm making a Level 8 wizard that casts like a Level 11 wizard. :P

Now I'm basically looking to get item creation feats and the dragon feats for the bonus sorcerer levels covered.
(Using Chaos Shuffle and Location feats to make it easier).

Once that is done, I'm basically looking for any other advice I can get in terms of gold making.

So Mainly:

-If I go the merchant route what else will help raise the profits?
-What skills can you think of that works well for a merchant and makes gold fast?
-What spells can you think of that works with money making?
-How well do you think leader ship can be applied to this?


I totally forgot Scribe Scroll is an item creation feat.

I feel like a total idiot now.

Oh and BTW.

Is there a way for wizards to get domains?

Because the Commerce domain gives a +10 competence bonus to "profession checks made to make a living".

I made the same mistake with the scroll, don't sweet it :P

Cleric Dip or Planar Touchstone Feat.
But the Planar Touchstone only gives the domain power, not the spells.

[Morithias]

So Mainly:

-If I go the merchant route what else will help raise the profits?
-What skills can you think of that works well for a merchant and makes gold fast?
-What spells can you think of that works with money making?
-How well do you think leader ship can be applied to this?

I made the same mistake with the scroll, don't sweet it :P

Cleric Dip or Planar Touchstone Feat.
But the Planar Touchstone only gives the domain power, not the spells.

All you want is the domain power.

Also the guildmaster feat in the DMG2, ties to leadership. It also lets you swap your cohort.

For skill you want "Shopkeeper".

Shops are medium capital, low resource, and high risk. Anything less than high risk does not produce money fast enough.

A shop opened in the wild costs. 3000 gp. 2000 gp of that is capital.

Assuming the merchant prince's 50% reduction, that's 1000 capital.

Upgrades cost 25% of capital, and give +1d4 profit per month, and can be bought every 3 months.

So for 250 gp you can add 1d4*50 profit per month. (average 2.5, so 125 gp).

So then you just upgrade your store over and over.

BUT.

there's one other thing.

"The business also covers the traveling merchant."

Quite frankly it shouldn't be hard to talk a DM, into letting you make a check once a month, and do some roleplaying to make some minor gold as you travel from place to place, even if the actual campaign isn't about trade.

Also, if you EVER find someone to let you run this character, pm me. I have a cleric that wants out. I've wanted to play a Merchant Princess for YEARS.

No that's not metaphor.

[Doc_Maynot]

I totally forgot Scribe Scroll is an item creation feat.

I feel like a total idiot now.

Oh and BTW.

Is there a way for wizards to get domains?

Because the Commerce domain gives a +10 competence bonus to "profession checks made to make a living".

Complete Champion has an ACF that does it. Page 53, Domain Granted Power.

[Gwazi Magnum]

All you want is the domain power.

Also the guildmaster feat in the DMG2, ties to leadership. It also lets you swap your cohort.

For skill you want "Shopkeeper".

Shops are medium capital, low resource, and high risk. Anything less than high risk does not produce money fast enough.

A shop opened in the wild costs. 3000 gp. 2000 gp of that is capital.

Assuming the merchant prince's 50% reduction, that's 1000 capital.

Upgrades cost 25% of capital, and give +1d4 profit per month, and can be bought every 3 months.

So for 250 gp you can add 1d4*50 profit per month. (average 2.5, so 125 gp).

So then you just upgrade your store over and over.

BUT.

there's one other thing.

"The business also covers the traveling merchant."

Quite frankly it shouldn't be hard to talk a DM, into letting you make a check once a month, and do some roleplaying to make some minor gold as you travel from place to place, even if the actual campaign isn't about trade.

Also, if you EVER find someone to let you run this character, pm me. I have a cleric that wants out. I've wanted to play a Merchant Princess for YEARS.

No that's not metaphor.

So Guildmaster basically makes me not pay payments while letting me swap cohorts?
So now I just need to find profitable use for multiple cohorts.

As for someone to run the campaign.
This is for one coming up, but it's for a local/in person group.
I doubt they would want people they don't know online joining in. :/

[Morithias]

Awww....oh well, I learned a lot this thread. I can do some real work with the merchant princess now.

[Gwazi Magnum]

New question.

Just dawned on me.
Being a traveling wizard merchant and all, he needs someway to move his stuff.

I know a simply bag of holding and fly spell should do the trick.
But I want something better, something more cool. :P

I'm thinking a caravan. Horses, wagon.
But it is magically sealed and protected. So it's almost impossible to break into it. This wagon although looking small can easily support the entire party living in there easily, so there's no more need for stuff like inns.

It should be an effective armory/storage of all my items. A good place to keep prisoners for stuff like interrogations, sacrifices, slave trading etc.

(Speaking of which, advice on Sacrifices for EXP and Gold from Slave Trading would also be appreciated).

How would I go across making this completely equipped and loaded Caravan?
Also if one of you feel like you have a better or cooler idea for such a thing than mine feel free and suggest it. I want to be "The" wandering magical merchant of the land! :P


Awww....oh well, I learned a lot this thread. I can do some real work with the merchant princess now.

Sorry. I'm glad you were able to learn a lot though.
Good luck finding a group for your merchant. :)

[Red Fel]

New question.

Just dawned on me.
Being a traveling wizard merchant and all, he needs someway to move his stuff.

I know a simply bag of holding and fly spell should do the trick.
But I want something better, something more cool. :P

I'm thinking a caravan. Horses, wagon.
But it is magically sealed and protected. So it's almost impossible to break into it. This wagon although looking small can easily support the entire party living in there easily, so there's no more need for stuff like inns.

It should be an effective armory/storage of all my items. A good place to keep prisoners for stuff like interrogations, sacrifices, slave trading etc.

(Speaking of which, advice on Sacrifices for EXP and Gold from Slave Trading would also be appreciated).

How would I go across making this completely equipped and loaded Caravan?
Also if one of you feel like you have a better or cooler idea for such a thing than mine feel free and suggest it. I want to be "The" wandering magical merchant of the land! :P)

I wouldn't use a caravan at all. I'd keep my store of goods in a warehouse floor of my comfortable wizard's citadel situated in a private corner of my private demiplane, far from prying eyes and enemies. And every night, instead of setting up camp, I would hop over to my secured planar stronghold, count my money, take inventory of my stores, restock my material components, and have a nice rest in my comfortable four-poster bed with the goose-down mattress and pillows.

Because a traveling merchant wizard knows how to live it up.

[Doc_Maynot]

Seeing as you are dealing with slave trading you could offer them their freedom in exchange for XP for magic craft via the Transference
Spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)

Also, for the transportation, you could always check with your DM to see if you can make a "Carriage of Holding" via custom magic item rules.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I wouldn't use a caravan at all. I'd keep my store of goods in a warehouse floor of my comfortable wizard's citadel situated in a private corner of my private demiplane, far from prying eyes and enemies. And every night, instead of setting up camp, I would hop over to my secured planar stronghold, count my money, take inventory of my stores, restock my material components, and have a nice rest in my comfortable four-poster bed with the goose-down mattress and pillows.

Because a traveling merchant wizard knows how to live it up.

Interesting.

How much would that be to set up though?


Seeing as you are dealing with slave trading you could offer them their freedom in exchange for XP for magic craft via the Transference
Spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a)

Also, for the transportation, you could always check with your DM to see if you can make a "Carriage of Holding" via custom magic item rules.

With the spell I could easily just lie to their faces (Bluff) and just sell them into slavery after anyways. >:)

That is a pretty good solution to the carriage.