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Stormcrow
2007-01-10, 08:14 PM
Had it raised in a group i DM what are peoples oppinions on;

The length, breadth and weight of a Large Sized Greatsword?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-01-10, 08:15 PM
Well, not to get technical, but greatswords are technically large.....but I know you mean a greatsword designed for a large-sized creature. And I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be all just the double of a regular one.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-10, 08:18 PM
Weight: This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons.
A Medium Greatsword is 8 lbs. Therefore, a Large Greatsword is 16 lbs.

I'm no weapons expert, so I can't say anything about the other values. :smallfrown:

RandomNPC
2007-01-10, 08:23 PM
lets say, big, by wide, by humungorous.

i don't really know, i'd say it should be a reach weapon you can use to attack adjacent foes with.

Zincorium
2007-01-10, 08:29 PM
lets say, big, by wide, by humungorous.

i don't really know, i'd say it should be a reach weapon you can use to attack adjacent foes with.

Large creatures already have that reach, which while not entirely realistic is the simple way that WotC has decided to go. Theoretically, reach for most weapons would vary considerably. You just can't reliably slash at someone with a dagger at the same distance you can with a longsword, and many polearms have wildly varying length and thus reach.

Anyway, as far as the OP goes, it'd be around 23% larger than a normal greatsword to retain proportional dimensions and weigh twice as much. That's long, but not really as long as you seem to be thinking.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 08:31 PM
Great Swords are probably meant to represent Two Handed Swords.

You can read about how huge they are here:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 08:32 PM
Ever play Final Fantasy VII? Yeah, like that.

Stormcrow
2007-01-10, 08:46 PM
Using the 23% theory its about a foot and a half of extra length, proportionally most of that is blade and a little handle to compensate and retain balance. The blade likely then to be three or four inches wide at the base.

The reason i ask is a Human Dragon Shaman i DM for is building one and i wanted an idea realistically of its size. Is it covered by a greatsword proficiency?

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 08:50 PM
Technically. He still will take a penalty for wielding an off-size weapon (-4 I believe), which he can sub down to -2 if he burns a feat on Monkey Grip.

Neither is very pretty. Tell him to build something else.

Lothorus
2007-01-10, 08:50 PM
Technically, yes the proficiency would remain the same, though you'd need to have the Monkey Grip feat or be one of a few races naturally capable of swinging it (like a half-giant).

Stormcrow
2007-01-10, 08:54 PM
Or a goliath.
*le sigh* its more for the prestige me'thinks than the combat. Ala Gatsu from Berserk.

Personally, if i was going to bother with a large weapon, i'd make it a scythe.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 08:59 PM
Or a goliath.
*le sigh* its more for the prestige me'thinks than the combat. Ala Gatsu from Berserk.

Personally, if i was going to bother with a large weapon, i'd make it a scythe.

That begs the question: What does 2d4 upgrade to? 1d12?

oriong
2007-01-10, 09:03 PM
2d4 upgrades to 2d6

PinkysBrain
2007-01-10, 09:03 PM
Since it's in the same size category as the wielder I'd say it's about 12 feet long.

Miles Invictus
2007-01-10, 09:04 PM
2d6, actually. Check the stats for the Falchion here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize).

Stormcrow
2007-01-10, 09:08 PM
12 feet!!

That becomes completely unreasonable for a 6'4" Human Dragon Shaman no matter his he-man strength :P

oriong
2007-01-10, 09:20 PM
It wouldn't be 12 feet I imagine, most Large creatures aren't even that tall, they're more commonly in the 7-10 range. Even the big greatswords aren't actually taller than the average human male, and so a Large greatsword probably wouldn't even be as tall as an Ogre.

Stormcrow
2007-01-10, 09:27 PM
I'm thinking 7'5" long, about four inches wide and weighing roughly 20lb.

Thanks guys.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 09:30 PM
Two Handed Swords go up to about 70" in length. You increase the length in proportion to the height of the user. It's worth mentioning, though, that many 'Great Swords' are much shorter, depending on your definition a Great Sword *could* be only 40" in length. I think 60-72" to be a reasonable range and probably 75-90" for a Large Great Sword. It wouldn't be anywhere near 20 lbs. More like about 10.

NullAshton
2007-01-10, 09:40 PM
A greatsword is an object of the same size as the wielder. Thus, a large greatsword would be a large object, and most likely be the length of a large sized creature.

In the case of a medium creature, it would probably be a couple of meters.

Raum
2007-01-10, 10:23 PM
Four inches wide?! If you're after verisimilitude you might want to just scale up from one of the Oakeshott types (http://www.albion-swords.com/articles/oakeshott-typology.htm).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-10, 11:20 PM
The reason i ask is a Human Dragon Shaman i DM for is building one and i wanted an idea realistically of its size. Is it covered by a greatsword proficiency?
If you use a weapon sized for a creature one category larger than yourself, the amount of effort it takes goes up. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/weapons.html#inappropriately-sized-weapons) A light weapon becomes a one-handed weapon. A one-handed weapon becomes a two-handed weapon. You cannot wield a larger two-handed weapon at all. A greatsword is a two-handed weapon, and would, therefore, be off limits.

However, as has been mentioned, the feat Monkey Grip can change this. It allows you to use a weapon one size category larger without changing its effort, albeit at a -2 penalty to attack.

BCOVertigo
2007-01-11, 11:10 PM
If you use a weapon sized for a creature one category larger than yourself, the amount of effort it takes goes up. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/weapons.html#inappropriately-sized-weapons) A light weapon becomes a one-handed weapon. A one-handed weapon becomes a two-handed weapon. You cannot wield a larger two-handed weapon at all. A greatsword is a two-handed weapon, and would, therefore, be off limits.

However, as has been mentioned, the feat Monkey Grip can change this. It allows you to use a weapon one size category larger without changing its effort, albeit at a -2 penalty to attack.

Is that to say that for the mere price of -4 to hit and 2 feats I , a lowly human, could be the proud wielder of a Huge Bastard Sword? ...That and a Sheath of Holding...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-01-11, 11:26 PM
No. Monkey Grip only works with weapons made for creatures exactly one size category larger than the wielder. It has no effect if the weapon is sized up two or more categories.

oriong
2007-01-11, 11:28 PM
I don't think monkey grip affects weapons more than one size category larger than you, but even if it did I seriously doubt you would want to do it.

A Huge Bastard sword would do 3d8 damage, for a -4 to hit, while a Large, monkey gripped Greatsword does 4d6 (the same maximum, higher minimum, slightly larger average damage) for just -2.

Norsesmithy
2007-01-12, 12:03 AM
I don't think monkey grip affects weapons more than one size category larger than you, but even if it did I seriously doubt you would want to do it.

A Huge Bastard sword would do 3d8 damage, for a -4 to hit, while a Large, monkey gripped Greatsword does 4d6 (the same maximum, higher minimum, slightly larger average damage) for just -2.
Not really, the best greatsword you can monkey grip is 3d6, the bastard sword is using the EWP Bastard sword to reduce it to single handed, and then Monkey grip to allow you to use a 2d8 one handed, or a 3d8 two handed.

Think of it as monkeygripping a Fullblade, assuming you let your players use one as a Two Handed weapon with the EWP, in 3.5 (not every DM does, mainly to prevent getting a 3d8 with your first level fighter)

oriong
2007-01-12, 12:10 AM
Right you are, must have read one right to the table for some reason.

AmoDman
2007-01-12, 12:22 AM
Not really, the best greatsword you can monkey grip is 3d6, the bastard sword is using the EWP Bastard sword to reduce it to single handed, and then Monkey grip to allow you to use a 2d8 one handed, or a 3d8 two handed.

Think of it as monkeygripping a Fullblade, assuming you let your players use one as a Two Handed weapon with the EWP, in 3.5 (not every DM does, mainly to prevent getting a 3d8 with your first level fighter)

Wrong, because since the Monkey Grip ONLY affects weapons one size category larger than you are, then you still treat a Huge-Sized Bastard Sword normally - meaning you can't wield one one-handed, two-handed, or otherwise (even if you can wield a large sized Bastard Sword in one hand due to Monkey Grip, the benefit does not carry over).

I already went over this with the Dwarven Waraxe awhile back. Just -2 Power Attack for +4 damage on every hit if you must.

Norsesmithy
2007-01-12, 12:48 AM
Then just get EWP full blade, and Monkey Grip, and then call your Large Fulblade a Huge Bastard sword, because it is, if you use weapon equivilency.

Suboptimal, but rolling lots of dice is fun.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-12, 01:02 AM
Suboptimal, but rolling lots of dice is fun.

Sounds like Yahtzee is the game for you then.

Norsesmithy
2007-01-12, 01:33 AM
Don't look at me, I have never ran this build. I just think it is funny when a single attack takes like 26d6s and such. I am just trying to justify why someone would run such a stupid build.

AmoDman
2007-01-12, 01:36 AM
Don't look at me, I have never ran this build. I just think it is funny when a single attack takes like 26d6s and such. I am just trying to justify why someone would run such a stupid build.

Play a high level Wizard, preferrably Evoker.

*pulls out fireball casting bag, dumps upside down on the table*

Matthew
2007-01-12, 07:35 AM
Wait a second, why on earth can't you use Monkey Grip and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) to use a Bastard Sword One Handed? Can someone point me to the discussion?

Thomas
2007-01-12, 07:37 AM
Wait a second, why on earth can't you use Monkey Grip and Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) to use a Bastard Sword One Handed? Can someone point me to the discussion?

I'm a bit confused - who said that? amodman said you can't use Monkey Grip to wield a huge bastard sword, and did say you could wield a large bastard sword in one hand.

Edit: You don't need EWP, either. It just eliminates the -4 penalty.

Matthew
2007-01-12, 07:40 AM
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but this appears to say that:


Not really, the best greatsword you can monkey grip is 3d6, the bastard sword is using the EWP Bastard sword to reduce it to single handed, and then Monkey grip to allow you to use a 2d8 one handed, or a 3d8 two handed.

Think of it as monkeygripping a Fullblade, assuming you let your players use one as a Two Handed weapon with the EWP, in 3.5 (not every DM does, mainly to prevent getting a 3d8 with your first level fighter)

Wrong, because since the Monkey Grip ONLY affects weapons one size category larger than you are, then you still treat a Huge-Sized Bastard Sword normally - meaning you can't wield one one-handed, two-handed, or otherwise (even if you can wield a large sized Bastard Sword in one hand due to Monkey Grip, the benefit does not carry over).

I already went over this with the Dwarven Waraxe awhile back. Just -2 Power Attack for +4 damage on every hit if you must.

[Edit]


Sword, Bastard

A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons). A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#simpleMartialandExoticWeapons).

Thomas
2007-01-12, 07:46 AM
Looks like Norsesmithy is saying you could use a Huge bastard sword two-handed, which is total nonsense. The EWP is entirely irrelevant, for one thing. The default bastard sword is a Medium weapon, used two-handed as a martial weapon, or one-handed as an exotic weapon; if you have Monkey Grip, you can use a Large bastard sword the same way (two-handed as martial, one-handed as exotic). You can not use a Huge bastard sword at all.

That's what I read from amodman's post.

Monkey Grip doesn't let you wield two-handed weapons in one hand; it lets you wield a weapon one size category larger as normal.

Matthew
2007-01-12, 07:50 AM
As far as I can see NorseSmithy is saying you can Monkey Grip a Large Bastard Sword and use it Two Handed and then use Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) to use it One Handed. Is that not possible?

[Edit] Wait, I see, the nomenclature threw me. Huge Bastard Sword. Duh.

Thomas
2007-01-12, 07:54 AM
Norsesmithy was speaking of large and huge bastard swords; 2d8 vs. 3d8 damage. That won't work.

What you describe will work. (But, again, you don't need EWP to wield it one-handed. You can do that without EWP, but you're not proficient.)

Matthew
2007-01-12, 07:56 AM
Yeah, I realised that at the last minute; conflated the large and huge designations...

You can't use a Bastard Sword in One Hand without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, according to the Bastard Sword Descripton, it's not a matter of non proficiency penalties, apparently.

JaronK
2007-01-12, 08:20 AM
To the OP: You may want to strongly recommend the character use a Fullblade instead. I believe the damage is equivalent to a Large Greatsword, so it's basically the same thing, but instead of monkey grip, you can just use Exotic Weapon Prof: Fullblade, since that's what it is.

That said, the player may try to use a Large Fullblade with Monkeygrip and EWP. In which case, be aware that this character will be quite weak, and adjust CRs appropriately.

JaronK

Norsesmithy
2007-01-12, 10:51 PM
Full blade is 2d8 for medium creature, not 3d6 like a large sized greatsword. I had a big post but it got eaten, so I will just say I agree with JaronK.

Jayabalard
2007-01-13, 12:23 AM
doubling the weight implies that you pretty much just double the volume; if that's done evenly in all directions, you multiply the length by the cube root of 2, which is where the increase by 26% that was listed above is from.

imo, it wouldn't just be a scale increase to double the weight; you'd gain length a little faster than thickness (since it still needs to cut), so you could probably justify increasing it's length by 26-40% or so.

Thomas
2007-01-13, 02:51 AM
Yeah, I realised that at the last minute; conflated the large and huge designations...

You can't use a Bastard Sword in One Hand without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, according to the Bastard Sword Descripton, it's not a matter of non proficiency penalties, apparently.

"Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."

The wording may be confusing, but all it means is that used one-handed, the bastard sword is an exotic weapon; used two-handed, it's a martial weapon. If you use it one-handed without EWP (bastard sword), you take the -4 nonproficiency penalty.

Matthew
2007-01-13, 06:40 AM
That would be the most sensible interpretation.