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Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-01-10, 08:21 PM
Among my group, we all have our least favorite classes, but the samurai is universally loathed. I wouldn't normally say this, but even the phb II doesn't have a section on it in the expanded classes part, when every other base class got one.

I wish there was someway to make this class good, but I just can't seem to find it. Have any of you found away to make it effective.

X15lm204
2007-01-10, 08:25 PM
I recommend kanachi's version from these boards. It's well balanced, it works well, it fits the flavor better, and it allows for much more flexibility.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10215

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 08:27 PM
No. It sucks.

It also is not the only class that did not receive an expansion. The Spirit Shaman did not, nor did the Spellthief, Wu-Jen, Shugenja, or Ninja.

Skyserpent
2007-01-10, 08:31 PM
Wu Jen got Complete Mage...

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 08:31 PM
...or the Healer.

Ramza00
2007-01-10, 08:31 PM
Archivist also didn't get one.

So where is this Samurai class you speak of, I look through all my complete books and phb2 and I just don't see what you are talking about. Are you by chance talking about the 3.0 Oriental Adventure Samurai?

Ramza00
2007-01-10, 08:32 PM
Dread Necro also, I wonder what they would have done as subsitution options for it anyway (besides the warmage advanced learning).

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 08:33 PM
Archivist also didn't get one.

So where is this Samurai class you speak of, I look through all my complete books and phb2 and I just don't see what you are talking about. Are you by chance talking about the 3.0 Oriental Adventure Samurai?

Samurai's in CWar.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 08:34 PM
Samurai is in Complete Warrior. Page 8.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 08:38 PM
It has a picture of a Dwarf Samurai next to it *shudder*.

Lothorus
2007-01-10, 08:41 PM
I've never really enjoyed the idea of a core class for samurai, knights, paladins, and other specialty warriors myself. To me, classes like that are goals that warriors spend a good deal of time training for and aspiring to be, so I usually prefer any prestige versions might be available. The old 3.0 manual, Sword and Fist had a prestige Samurai that was alright. I forget the details, but the gist of it was that the samurai focused a bit and got boosts to strength or weapon damage or something. You might want to look into it if you have a second-hand book store nearby. If you're lucky, they might have a DnD section full of cheapo old version stuff.

Scorpina
2007-01-10, 08:46 PM
It has a picture of a Dwarf Samurai next to it *shudder*.

I thought it was just a human with a beard...

Fax Celestis
2007-01-10, 08:48 PM
Nope, it's a dwarf.

Matthew
2007-01-10, 09:15 PM
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75398.jpg

mabriss lethe
2007-01-10, 10:01 PM
yeah...shudder...twice for good measure.
AEG did a passable adaptation of it in Rokugan. The basic switch involved paying exp instead of gp to enhance ancestoral weapons and giving technique feats that opened up whole new doors almost exclusively for them. (samurai could take tech feats along with fighter bonus feats, anyone else wanting to purchase a tech feat had to pick it up at lvl3/6/9 etc.) Passable, I say, still not all that good.

Norsesmithy
2007-01-10, 10:13 PM
There is no samurai in complete warrior, Most of the Samurai in games I participate in are actually just LN fighters with falchions, great bows and glaives, sometimes with longspears too.

Ramza00
2007-01-10, 10:17 PM
Samurai's in CWar.
Thats wierd my copy of complete warrior seems to be missing part of page 8, all of page 9, and all of page 10. It goes straight from Hexblade to Swashbuckler :smallwink:

So what is the samuari everybody is talking about :smallsmile:

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-10, 10:17 PM
The Samurai: And You Thought The Divine Mind Was Bad...

Person_Man
2007-01-10, 10:37 PM
How to be an effective Samurai:

1) Be some other melee based class.

2) Take the Frightful Presence feat from the Draconomicon.

3) Roleplay.

You are now a Samurai.

WotC tried twice to make this class, and screwed up both times. There is no hope for it until 4.0 comes out, whenever that will be. But the mechanics exist for you to make any type of Samurai that you want to be.

Fizban
2007-01-10, 10:49 PM
Alternatively:

1)Be any melee class.

2)Take the Kiai Shout feats from CWar

4)Take Kensai levels if you really need to

3)Roleplay

Considering that the Kiai Shout baisically gives you only unique ability of the samurai class, except for full fleged Frightful Presence.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-01-10, 11:35 PM
Well, I ment how to make that class good...but yeah, I can make a decent one out of a knight, or even a paladin If I want.

And I didn't realize so many classes missed out- I'll do my homework next time.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-01-10, 11:58 PM
Alternate way to play a Samurai:

1) Watch some Samurai movies.

2) Play a Swordsage or Warblade. Select maneuvers around a theme you saw in the movies.

3) Change the names on your maneuvers. Roleplay.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-11, 12:01 AM
Well, I ment how to make that class good...but yeah, I can make a decent one out of a knight, or even a paladin If I want.

Basically, fixing the Samurai requires reworking so extensive that it'll be a new class, not a modified Samurai.

JaronK
2007-01-11, 12:33 AM
Yeah, the Samurai is pretty much the best example of how not to make a class. Power wise, it's weak as all hell. It's also completely inflexibile, so all Samurai have to be pretty much the same. Furthermore, the mechanics don't fit the samurai flavor at all. All in all, it just stinks, and no, there's nothing you can do about it except steal from other classes.

With that said, Monk/Kensai with whirling steel strike can actually do a great unarmoured Samurai impression.

JaronK

Ambrogino
2007-01-11, 05:37 AM
AEG did a passable adaptation of it in Rokugan.

1) AEG didn't write Oriental Adventures, WotC did.
2) The Rokugan Samurai AEG did write in Legends of the Five Rings has no kind of magic weapons, but skills based on the schools they have studied under, most of which are restricted by Clan.

Caelestion
2007-01-11, 09:29 AM
Stunningly, in AEG's d20 supplement Rokugan, they did indeed present a slightly revised version of WotC's Samurai from Oriental Adventures.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-11, 09:41 AM
Yeah I am with the group on this the samurai is lame The main thing I like is the frightful presence.

Renegade Paladin
2007-01-11, 09:43 AM
There are feats for that.

Matthew
2007-01-11, 12:50 PM
Yeah, if I were going to play a Samurai Character, I would just use the Fighter Base Class.

Captain van der Decken
2007-01-11, 12:55 PM
I'd use the Warblade base class, personally.

Samurai is really just one of those hopless classes.

Ontomancer
2007-01-11, 02:50 PM
The Master Samurai in Sword and Fist was pretty good, and I'm with the other guy that said the samurai should be an ideal to strive toward (PrC), not a base class. It should be somrthing that requires dedication to acheive (even more so than the paladin, because the samurai's liege and duties are more concrete than even the paladin's relatively ephermal code of conduct), not just something you grab instead of fighter to multiclass, not that anyone would take that worthless CW version. Incidentally, the samurai in OA was pretty decent, because it was effectively a carbon copy of the fighter who could dump ludicrous amounts of gold onto his sword to enchant it himself, so he was okay in low-magic games.

The S&F version was good tho, both in terms of flavor, and because he could add 2x his STR toa 2-hander, and he got Supreme Cleave: as Great Cleave, but you can take a 5-foot step in between attacks. Given good enough rolls, he could take out a whole legion of lowbies in one round.

AaronH
2007-01-11, 03:53 PM
The thing to consider about Samurai, is they are just a class in DnD, and as such need to be divorced somewhat from their historical inspiration. Everybody has some idealized view of samurai, that ultimately is only partly true. In reality, samurai from different Eras of Japanese history were very different beasts, and as such each player needs to decide what type of samurai they want to play as, or they may choose to simply play as the CW samurai and Roleplay the rest. I mean, nobody out here is screaming about paladins not being historicly accurate, so why the Samurai? Maybe the CW incarnation isn't the most powerful base class, oh well, don't play it, stick with the OA samurai or make up your own.

Bears With Lasers
2007-01-11, 04:02 PM
The problem isn't that it's not the most powerful.

The problem is that it's the single worst class WotC has published to date.

Fax Celestis
2007-01-11, 04:18 PM
The problem isn't that it's not the most powerful.

The problem is that it's the single worst class WotC has published to date.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/3063936.jpg

Matthew
2007-01-11, 04:23 PM
Arrgh... Complete Warrior Samurai + Harry Potter = Bad Combination

Samurai are exactly the same as Knights [i.e. historically diverse and innaccurately romanticised as homogenous].

Bears has the right of it, though; the Class doesn't just suck with regard to flavour, it sucks mechanically too.

Morty
2007-01-11, 04:26 PM
Well maybe WoTC made that class so other underpowered classes can say: "Yeah, we are mechanically weak, but we're still better than Samurai".

Fax Celestis
2007-01-11, 04:28 PM
Warlock PWNZ CWar Samurai.

Ramza00
2007-01-11, 04:30 PM
Bears has the right of it, though; the Class doesn't just suck with regard to flavour, it sucks mechanically too.
Classes should always be judged on its mechanics and not its flavor. A good player is what brings the character to life, he is the one who roleplays. He is the one who makes the "character work" on the table.

Matthew
2007-01-11, 04:30 PM
Well maybe WoTC made that class so other underpowered classes can say: "Yeah, we are mechanically weak, but we're still better than Samurai".

Maybe, bad for the soul, though, and the game. I guess one Base Class is bound to be the worst...


Classes should always be judged on its mechanics and not its flavor. A good player is what brings the character to life, he is the one who roleplays. He is the one who makes the "character work" on the table.

Absolutely, but mechanics can sabotage flavour, as with this particular offering.

Ramza00
2007-01-11, 04:37 PM
Absolutely, but mechanics can sabotage flavour, as with this particular offering.
Exactly, thus if you want to play a "Samurai" in D&D you would play a different character, a fighter, a warblade, or a multiclass one.

Thus I return to my original point, what this Samurai does everybody speak of, I don't see it in my copy of Complete Warrior. Did they cancel it like they did Complete Psionic, I am still disapointed in WOTC for doing that. I do thank WOTC though for the "enhancement" the released for XPH which they salvage from the canceled complete psionic. 15 more pages of psionics is a good thing but that isn't the good 150 I was hoping for :smallwink:

elliott20
2007-01-12, 03:55 PM
I personally thought the Oriental Adventures Samurai was ok... It's basically a fighter with a free magical weapon, less feats, and more skill points. (And a slightly larger skill list compared to the fighter.)

But to be honest, it can be done with just about any normal melee fighting class if you roleplay it right.