Making a swashbuckler-rogue

[Askeladd]

alright, thing set in stone
one the idea
two the race Tiefling

stats rolled
15
18
18
10
11
12

food for thought, the dm stated that threat crits are confirmed crits, so the idea was two weapon fighting with kukri and rapier, though before the crit thing i wanted to use a spiked chain... fluff reasons.
starting level is 4 (3 cus of la+1), with 7,000 gold (only up to 4,000 on a single item)
also, the plan was to go swash 3 then rogue 3 then get daring outlaw, i know nothing when it comes to actual builds since I've only had a years worth of experience. half of which was just learning what was in the books and not really thinking of things build wise.. till party members were doing all the work as i practically watched.

[Kane0]

There should be a lesser tiefling floating around if you're interested in not having any LA

There is also the Rogue handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) which you might find useful.

Rapier definitely seems the way to go, consider some swordsage as well? A one level dip would be best, and if you wait until mid levels you can pick up all the nice things in one go.

Edit: that guide has a build for you: it recommends rogue 4/swashbuckler 4/ swordsage 1/swashbuckler 11. Solid build, still a lot of skill points and retains good combat ability. Has room for feats to accomodate your choie of fighting style but gives up a lot of rogue abilities. You can trade out some of the low level ones like trapfinding with acfs like poison use though, which can make up for it.

[FrznTear]

Any prohibited books?

Enter Swordsage at level 9, picking up the Shadow Hand stance Assassin's stance which you 2d6 sneak attack and also take the Shadowblade feat(ToB pg grants+dex to damage with spiked chains while in a Shadow Hand stance) You can also do this with the item Shadow Hands (ToB pg150, 3,000) to get a Shadow Hand maneuver to qualify for Assassin's Stance when you take the feat Martial Stance (preferably with the bonus feat from a level of fighter at HD 10 to get it asap)

A level in fighter with the Hit-and run tactics from Drow of the Underdark. In exchange for Heavy armour and tower shield proficiencies you get +2 to initiative and Dex to weapon damage rolls against flat-footed opponents. If you don't want the fighter bonus feat you can trade it for 1d6 sneak attack using the fighter variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Get the Craven Feat, (Champions of ruin) You get 1 extra point of damage per character level when you make sneak attack damage you also get -2 to saving throws against fear.

If you are going crit fishing then you will want to have quite a bit of static damage which is difficult without Power attacking, here are a few ways

Gauntlets of war are only 4k and are from Complete Champion, +3 damage to a favored weapon of a deity you warship with the war domain, requires research to find a deity that suits your needs

A dip in cloistered cleric can get you knowledge devotion. Putting a rank in each knowledge skill and combining it with a your int score will put you at 15 if you take ten (which may end up happening since rolling a knowledge check for each enemy that shows up may get annoying) which will give you +2 atk and damage rolls. You could cross class a point into all monster related skills and take the feat if you don't want the cleric dip.

For your weapon(s) there is the +2 Collision enchantment which grants you +5 damage on each hit. Similarly there is the the +2 Fierce enchantment from Arms and equipment guide which lets you take dex from your ac and give it to your damage instead

Sword of Graceful Strikes pg 120 of Arms and Equipment guide gets you dex to damage instead of strength. It is a +3 shortsword that costs 72,310, if you happen to come across a boatload of gold ask to have this on a different weapon.

[Tevesh]

On the other end, you can go for Feinting with Invisible Knife which you should only pursue if your DM also thinks the Pre-Reqs are stupid and can change them to not rely on ranged combat (there was technically an error in the copy-editing stage but was never fixed when it went to print).

Another fun thing you could go with is EWPs. Gnomish Quickrazor shenanigans is a great way to make sure your foes are FF for Sneak Attack. Another weapon I've just discovered and I think is interesting is the Crescent Blade. Its Light, d3 damage but what makes it great is you roll two attacks per attack. Move, Standard Action Stab for 2 Rolls and twice the Sneak Attack. Since its a Light Weapon, you can easily TWP that ****.

4 attacks suddenly turned to 8, all of which has Sneak Attack slapped on top... Someone's going to have a bad day.

Another EWPs...

Elven Thinblade adds Dex to Damage. With Swashbuckler, you add Int and then Str. If you go Move based, Slippers of Battledancing or Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows add Cha to Damage. Everything to damage! But the big thing is Thinblade into the ToB Feat that gives Dex-to-Damage with Finesse Weapons (Now you're doing Str+Dex*2).

Kasuri-Gama and/or Spiked Chain is a classic. You can trip, disarm and have reach without any penalties. Also, badass points.

No matter what you do, Trade Alternative Class Features for Penetrating Strike. Penetrating Strike allows you to add half your Sneak to Humanoid Corporeal creatures that are immune to crits - like Golems, Undead, Abberations, some Plants, etc.

I think that's enough optimization for today....

[Malak'ai]

On the other end, you can go for Feinting with Invisible Knife which you should only pursue if your DM also thinks the Pre-Reqs are stupid and can change them to not rely on ranged combat (there was technically an error in the copy-editing stage but was never fixed when it went to print).

Another fun thing you could go with is EWPs. Gnomish Quickrazor shenanigans is a great way to make sure your foes are FF for Sneak Attack. Another weapon I've just discovered and I think is interesting is the Crescent Blade. Its Light, d3 damage but what makes it great is you roll two attacks per attack. Move, Standard Action Stab for 2 Rolls and twice the Sneak Attack. Since its a Light Weapon, you can easily TWP that ****.

4 attacks suddenly turned to 8, all of which has Sneak Attack slapped on top... Someone's going to have a bad day.

Another EWPs...

Elven Thinblade adds Dex to Damage. With Swashbuckler, you add Int and then Str. If you go Move based, Slippers of Battledancing or Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows add Cha to Damage. Everything to damage! But the big thing is Thinblade into the ToB Feat that gives Dex-to-Damage with Finesse Weapons (Now you're doing Str+Dex*2).

Kasuri-Gama and/or Spiked Chain is a classic. You can trip, disarm and have reach without any penalties. Also, badass points.

No matter what you do, Trade Alternative Class Features for Penetrating Strike. Penetrating Strike allows you to add half your Sneak to Humanoid Corporeal creatures that are immune to crits - like Golems, Undead, Abberations, some Plants, etc.

I think that's enough optimization for today....

I think you have misread something somewhere along the lines. The Thinblade allows you to use your DEX instead of STR for attacks if they have Weapon Finesse (which a Swashbuckler has). It doesn't add DEX to damage.

[Tevesh]

Herp a derp, you're right.

I guess you'd still have to do the Swordsage shenanigans to get Dex to Damage.

[Askeladd]

sweet so, i was thinking about it, we can also take flaws fyi, just found out,

sticking with spiked chain, and am thinking of using kukris for crit fishing (so no need to roll to confirm crits was ruled.. so keen kukris for crit 15-20??? thats like 30% chance to crit) i like the idea for dex to damage, with the sword sage thing, im just confused on how to do it, what feats should i take and in which order, same goes for the class levels, i was thinking of taking 3 in swash then 3 in rogue and get daring outlaw at lvl 6, that way i start off with the int damage and the nice full bab, starting off at full hp too (as in roll wise) so thats 30 hp instant.

free weapon finesse, feat lvl 1? (exotic weapon spiked chain?
and feat lvl 3?(twf?)
feat lvl 6- daring outlaw
feat lvl 9? (shadow blade?)
feat lvl 12?(improved twf?)
feat lvl 15?(craven?)



i was thinking of using my rogue levels to good use and invest in use magic device, more of a backup thing in case the situation renders my character semi useless, that way i can still use some kind of wand.. funn thing, cha-2 and it being a dump stat, any other suggestions in case of ranged combat? quickdraw for thrown weps and just quickdraw fun, or should i get a bow (i mean 20 dex is nice either way but... still

[Askeladd]

Any prohibited books?

Enter Swordsage at level 9, picking up the Shadow Hand stance Assassin's stance which you 2d6 sneak attack and also take the Shadowblade feat(ToB pg grants+dex to damage with spiked chains while in a Shadow Hand stance) You can also do this with the item Shadow Hands (ToB pg150, 3,000) to get a Shadow Hand maneuver to qualify for Assassin's Stance when you take the feat Martial Stance (preferably with the bonus feat from a level of fighter at HD 10 to get it asap)

A level in fighter with the Hit-and run tactics from Drow of the Underdark. In exchange for Heavy armour and tower shield proficiencies you get +2 to initiative and Dex to weapon damage rolls against flat-footed opponents. If you don't want the fighter bonus feat you can trade it for 1d6 sneak attack using the fighter variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Get the Craven Feat, (Champions of ruin) You get 1 extra point of damage per character level when you make sneak attack damage you also get -2 to saving throws against fear.

If you are going crit fishing then you will want to have quite a bit of static damage which is difficult without Power attacking, here are a few ways

Gauntlets of war are only 4k and are from Complete Champion, +3 damage to a favored weapon of a deity you warship with the war domain, requires research to find a deity that suits your needs

A dip in cloistered cleric can get you knowledge devotion. Putting a rank in each knowledge skill and combining it with a your int score will put you at 15 if you take ten (which may end up happening since rolling a knowledge check for each enemy that shows up may get annoying) which will give you +2 atk and damage rolls. You could cross class a point into all monster related skills and take the feat if you don't want the cleric dip.

For your weapon(s) there is the +2 Collision enchantment which grants you +5 damage on each hit. Similarly there is the the +2 Fierce enchantment from Arms and equipment guide which lets you take dex from your ac and give it to your damage instead

Sword of Graceful Strikes pg 120 of Arms and Equipment guide gets you dex to damage instead of strength. It is a +3 shortsword that costs 72,310, if you happen to come across a boatload of gold ask to have this on a different weapon.
as far as my dm has been giving off, there doesnt seem to be any prohibited things "i want you guys to be as crazy strong as you want to be"

[Darrin]

You can find my Daring Outlaw example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034748&postcount=12) here in the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585). However, Kane0's build (with the Swordsage 1) also looks very tempting.

Use the Lesser Planetouched Tiefling (Player's Guide to Faerun, Dex +2 Int +2 Cha -2, no LA) if available, otherwise use the Savage Progression Tiefling (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) to avoid the LA +1. If the latter, ask your DM if you can take Outsider Wings (Races of Faerun) later.

The two most important feats in a Sneak Attack build tend to be Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer). Getting the Penetrating Strike ACF is also pretty important. This can be found in either Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. If you use the Dungeonscape version, ask your DM to clarify if you get "half the damage" or "half the dice" (the Ravenloft version actually says "dice").

Basic TWF/ImpTWF/GrTWF + Travel Devotion x2 or x3 should take care of the rest of your feats. At higher levels, consider adding Undo Resistance (Fiendish Codex II) if you're running into a lot of creatures with SR.

[Askeladd]

You can find my Daring Outlaw example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15034748&postcount=12) here in the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585). However, Kane0's build (with the Swordsage 1) also looks very tempting.

Use the Lesser Planetouched Tiefling (Player's Guide to Faerun, Dex +2 Int +2 Cha -2, no LA) if available, otherwise use the Savage Progression Tiefling (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) to avoid the LA +1. If the latter, ask your DM if you can take Outsider Wings (Races of Faerun) later.

The two most important feats in a Sneak Attack build tend to be Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer). Getting the Penetrating Strike ACF is also pretty important. This can be found in either Dungeonscape or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. If you use the Dungeonscape version, ask your DM to clarify if you get "half the damage" or "half the dice" (the Ravenloft version actually says "dice").

Basic TWF/ImpTWF/GrTWF + Travel Devotion x2 or x3 should take care of the rest of your feats. At higher levels, consider adding Undo Resistance (Fiendish Codex II) if you're running into a lot of creatures with SR.
alright so should my stats look like this?
10
20
15
20
12
9

or
15
20
12
20
10
9

one actually gives me strength enough to make use of extra damage (since insightful strike and shadow blade can still use the strength to damage)
but the other increases my hp per level and my will save by 1.. going to be squishy as it is, but the spiked chain will allow me to flank and attack enemies from a distance if the situation requires me to play smart (then it makes the twf seem kinda redundant except for crit fishing) and then another problem arose, where should my stat boosts go?, id have 2 main stats that benefit from it, my dex and intelligence, skill points are nice/ extra dex is nice to hit things/ str could have 1 point away to adding another +1 to damage.
lesser tiefling doesnt give me a +2 to int and takes away energy resistance, which i kinda like, extra point of damage per attack, and energy resistance helps me survive magic alot better than my will save will. but i dont see which is the better tradeoff, wish i could just forfeit the darkness 1nce a day ability since i cant see through magical darkness with my darkvission (wee look i get darkness so i can blind myself and everyone else too) lol

[Person_Man]

I'm personally not a fan of Swashbuckler, or Rogue/Swashbuckler. The benefits of getting one bonus Feat and Int to damage are generally fairly small, and you can get larger benefits many other ways. In most cases, even a strait Rogue would be better, though I personally prefer Psychic Rogue, Beguiler, Factotum, Swordsage, or Rogue/Totemist/PrC.

[Darrin]

one actually gives me strength enough to make use of extra damage (since insightful strike and shadow blade can still use the strength to damage)
but the other increases my hp per level and my will save by 1..


Hmm. I could probably go either way on the stats, but I think putting the 15 in Con makes the build a bit more survivable. As for your Will save, ask your DM if you can take the "Detached" trait (Unearthed Arcana p. 87): Will +1/Ref -1. Your Ref save won't miss it.

If you want to TWF with the spiked chain, have you considered the kusari-gama? Light one-handed finessable reach weapon. There's also the spinning sword in Secrets of Sarlona, a one-handed (non-light) version if you want to try Oversize TWF + Power Attack.



then another problem arose, where should my stat boosts go?, id have 2 main stats that benefit from it, my dex and intelligence, skill points are nice/ extra dex is nice to hit things/ str could have 1 point away to adding another +1 to damage.


If you're going to work in Shadow Blade, then I'd probably pump everything into Dex, as this buffs a lot of things for you: attack, damage, AC, init, Ref saves (evasion), tumble, and so on. Buffing Int just gives you damage, skill points, languages, and... search checks, maybe? As for pumping up Str... what was the point of going Daring Outlaw if you were just going to buff Str like your typical melee meatbag?

[Askeladd]

Hmm. I could probably go either way on the stats, but I think putting the 15 in Con makes the build a bit more survivable. As for your Will save, ask your DM if you can take the "Detached" trait (Unearthed Arcana p. 87): Will +1/Ref -1. Your Ref save won't miss it.

If you want to TWF with the spiked chain, have you considered the kusari-gama? Light one-handed finessable reach weapon. There's also the spinning sword in Secrets of Sarlona, a one-handed (non-light) version if you want to try Oversize TWF + Power Attack.



If you're going to work in Shadow Blade, then I'd probably pump everything into Dex, as this buffs a lot of things for you: attack, damage, AC, init, Ref saves (evasion), tumble, and so on. Buffing Int just gives you damage, skill points, languages, and... search checks, maybe? As for pumping up Str... what was the point of going Daring Outlaw if you were just going to buff Str like your typical melee meatbag?
if i had spiked armor, i could essentially still use twf and my spiked chain right? still get 1.5 my strength to damage to my spiked chain and power attack is legit on it as well, in which case, at lvl 9 with shadow blade with the first set my damage could be

2d4+5 int+6 dex+ 3 str take prc into exotic wep master for 1 lvl, and then str is x2 take at leas 1 stat boost into str and its 2d4+5 int +5 dex and +6 str craven and sneak attack with island of blades = deadly,

orrr how would the hidden blades work if i used them , i know i take a -2 for using them.. but essentially i wouldnt need to have them on my hand right?

[herrhauptmann]

as far as my dm has been giving off, there doesnt seem to be any prohibited things "i want you guys to be as crazy strong as you want to be"
How good are the other players at optimizing?
If the answer is 'very,' your build might not survive.

if i had spiked armor, i could essentially still use twf and my spiked chain right? still get 1.5 my strength to damage to my spiked chain and power attack is legit on it as well, in which case, at lvl 9 with shadow blade with the first set my damage could be

Yes. Spiked gauntlet is usually preferred though.
I'd recommend making your spikes +1 smoking.
And if you've got a 2hander (like the spiked chain), get steadfast boots from the MiC. That will give you an attack at double damage which is independent of your AOOs.
If the party includes an ubercharger, don't mention this little thing until it's needed as the boots are a great way to shut down chargers.

[Askeladd]

not verry, most are newish to the game, one is experienced but his attitude shuns min maxing, against my character idea.. the rest are just making stuff to make things, one wants to be a dragon rider, idk what its even from, and i hardly know any details, another wants to be a yuan ti soulknife with like la+6 of like monstrous humanoid lvls, the one that shuns min maxing is making a sorcerer/favored soul/ mystic thurge, his deities favored weapon is scimitar is all i know. there might be like 1-3 more people but we dont know just yet, so far the campaign hasnt started

i could still use a spiked gauntlet while using a 2 handed weapon?