Help! I optimized too much and the DM is having trouble

[AdamantlyD20]

Ok, so i made a character, that is an abomination of 5-6 different classes, Fighter, Cleric, Barbarian, Ranger, Horizon walker, level 8 character, and took crafting feats and such to make items cheaply, so my 33000 starting wealth at level 8 went a lot farther than it would have without those. I did the calculations on an encounter calculator and found that the encounter he threw at us "(2 level 8 players = party level 6)" is estimated to be roughly between CR 17-18. CR8 X 12 + CR12 X 2. ( Roughly)... my guy survived a grenade to the chest, which he jumped on to protect a merchant's shipment of assault rifles from harm, proceeded to get up, and clobber 2 guys, killing one and injuringanother severely. Dealing over 30 damage per hit. And hitting with a hammer of thunder (custom item) with bloodstorm ability heals for half damage dealt. And 4 more guys arrive atop a hill and start firing AK-47 at me. I take 97HP damage and still hang onto life by a thread. My buddy gets knocked unconscious by a concussion?? Grenade and i make a full attack using rapid shot, boots of speed haste for an extra attack, +15/+15/+15/+10 with ranged and seriously dump some damage onto the enemies. Healing for half of total damage dealt. I pick up my unconscious friend and start hauling tail (80ft movement from class features/feats/ haste) and eventually get away. Only to stumble upon the bandit leader ( estimated CR12) and using a full attack deal a whopping 97 damage. I use some smelling salts to revive my friend and he turns invisible, moves away and shoots enemy in the back for around 33 damage. The enemy had taken 130 total damage and still standing. The guys from before catch up and have reinforced amount (12 concussion grenades launched at me by 12 guys) i managed to make all the initial reflex saves except 4, which i then had to roll fortitude saves against. On my first fortitude save.... a 1...dropped to the ground, unconscious, and my partner runs away to save himself, realized the odds are against him. The DM was crushed, and looked so ups wanted me to run away or get captured, it wasn't even supposed to be an encounter, the real encounter was supposed to be way later, but my character doesn't believe In giving up, he stuck in there and defended that shipment of weapons as long as he could, until he had no choice but to retreat, only long enough to save his companion, and then back to battle. I need help realizing when to " surrender" i mean that's always an option i guess, but i was winning... until somehow 4 guys turned into 12 guys, and my non optimized party member first character ever had more up his sleeve. He rolled a lawful evil cleric. So no heal. And didn't cast one spell. Has a really bad dexterity score (9), yet trying to do ranged ...combat Isn't exactly his strong point, i actually don't know what his strong point is... his wisdom is 13.... and a cleric.... i don't even know. I need to buff him up somehow, because i can't have the new player being poorly equipped to handle combat when I'm murking t CR 17 encounter almost solo. I don't think it originally was meant to be so high, but the DM kept throwing more at me to try " railroading" a certain outcome... little did he know, i had a plan for everything.... except rolling a 1. I offered to re-roll the character at 'unoptimized noob power' to fix the power gap. The DM said no. What do i do.

[OldTrees1]

Hmm.
Could we have more details about the PC builds? Ideally the DM would seek a way to challenge you both. Failing that there are probably a few areas that you could tone down your build. (Say dropping the "heal half damage dealt" enchantment)

I would like to thank you for your cooperation with your DM. That is a good mindset/relationship.

[AdamantlyD20]

I'll most likely, if nothing else, find an in game reason the enchantment vanished, maybe an evil force is being powered every time it drains energy, and so i would (NG character) want to put an end to its power, perhaps refrain from using it until the enchantment was stripped. Also, definitely use 60% of in game currency to make items for my party member to be closer to my power, and i could tone down my combat prowess as some kind of flaw, if i do not deem them worthy opponent will only use one attack / round. To test/show his cocky attitude

[Spore]

and took crafting feats and such to make items cheaply, so my 33000 starting wealth at level 8 went a lot farther than it would have without those.

That is most likely the reason. You have wealth by level closer to 10. And if you shopped in Magic Mart™ you have great gear attuned to your character. We have used a rule from PF Ultimate Campaign that a maximum of 25% of a character's wealth can be created from crafting feats. Because since you starting adventuring you most likely didn't have an infinited amount of time to devote to earning XP AND crafting gear.

[AdamantlyD20]

I feel bad. in retrospect, i should have known a first time player would never make optimal choices when creating his character. And i definitely shouldn't have taken feats to give myself such a large advantage over "normal/ average players" being that his powergaming was even lower than "normal" it feels like a crippled guy who fell out of his wheelchair next to a demi-superman. I wanted the guy to make his character first so i could emulate his power level as best i could to be equal. I spent 2 days optimizing. That's the fun part for me, the number crunching. As a new player i don't want his experience to be bad because of my power gaming

[Spore]

Seriously though, help HIM rebuild his character. This cleric sounds like an unplayable abomination.

[AdamantlyD20]

If a character (level 8) can solo a CR 12 monster with DR 10 and immunity to electicity ( source of my bonus damage ...so cripples 1/3 of extra damage) In a combat simulation and come out on top using potions and equipment, what is his estimated effective character level. I have a problem making characters that are at least 2-3 ECL than their actually are. Now I'm aware there are waaay more builds out there that are much stronger.

[Spore]

If a character (level 8) can solo a CR 12 monster with DR 10 and immunity to electicity ( source of my bonus damage ...so cripples 1/3 of extra damage) In a combat simulation and come out on top using potions and equipment, what is his estimated effective character level. I have a problem making characters that are at least 2-3 ECL than their actually are. Now I'm aware there are waaay more builds out there that are much stronger.

Everything up to 12 is fine if it uses up your whole allotment of spells and ressources for the day. It strongly depends on your fighting style.

My 9th level PF Halfling Beastrider (Spirited Charge for triple weapon damage on mounted charges) deals with CR 11 monsters without using up more than half his HP alone. If he has no way of charging with the mount however (flying, invisible, no mount, difficult terrain), my combat ability diminishes to a 6th level fighter that can either deal 2x 1d6+3 damage on his own or can buff hit chance or AC of an adjacent ally with +8.

Your build is fine, you just have way too much gear. Help your friend build a Cleric (and more important, help him with spell selection) and carry on (after you have reduced your enchants with the DM).

[GreenETC]

Just to note, your friend's Lawful Evil cleric CAN cast heal spells, he just needs to prepare them rather than make them spontaneously.

[AdamantlyD20]

Another problem i see at the table is stats, 4d6 best 3, we rolled with the DM got 18, 18, 16, 12, 14,12seemed to have gotten extremely lucky rolling, whereas my party member seemed to have rolled 9, 10, 13, 12, 12,12.... no clear "good stat" mostly mediocre and average.

[Than]

See if the DM will let you trade him an 18 and 16 for a pair of his 12s or just let him re-roll stats.

Or let him just copy yours.

[FullStop]

Another problem i see at the table is stats, 4d6 best 3, we rolled with the DM got 18, 18, 16, 12, 14,12seemed to have gotten extremely lucky rolling, whereas my party member seemed to have rolled 9, 10, 13, 12, 12,12.... no clear "good stat" mostly mediocre and average.

Should he not have rerolled that? I think the standard reroll rule for 6X 4d6b3 is if you end up with the sum of your stat mods as less than or equal to zero, or you have no stat above 13.

[Muja]

Another problem i see at the table is stats, 4d6 best 3, we rolled with the DM got 18, 18, 16, 12, 14,12seemed to have gotten extremely lucky rolling, whereas my party member seemed to have rolled 9, 10, 13, 12, 12,12.... no clear "good stat" mostly mediocre and average.

Have the other player ask for a reroll chance with your approval as a party member. If thats rejected then ask for it to default to smething like 20 Point Buy. If thats refused have the players character Kill themselves, and force the DM as its a needed new character. If a DM wants balance, they have to at least try as well :smallbiggrin:

[AdamantlyD20]

I appreciate the input guys, i really do, these were all great suggestions. I definitely appreciate them

[Brookshw]

And thank you for being a considerate player taking into account the other members :smallbiggrin:

BTW, what exactly are you playing? A modern/d&d fusion?

[AdamantlyD20]

Yea, its like pathfinder with d20 apocalypse/ modern. Fused. Plasma guns, ballistic weapons, molecular swords, and old fashioned pathfinder melee, ranged and magic. In game i think during our down time I'm going to craft some good gear for my party member, and either just give it to him, or find a way to open an in game shop pooling our money together and put someone in charge to hold into the crafted items, and then present them as profit" for the week when we "check on the business" and get better gear for him. so it looks like his investment is paying off and doesn't feel like he's a flat tire so to speak.

[TheDarkSaint]

There are ways to use your munchkin powers for good :smallbiggrin:


Create a party buffer. Try to optimize said character to give out as many bonus's as possible to the party. Look at it like a puzzle. It will be fun for you as you make something other than a damage dealer and your party will love you for it. .

[AdamantlyD20]

Also a very good suggestion, however a few problems come up: 1. Only a 2 man party, and 2. Xp for combat is not evenly split among all members, but instead, how the DM handles it is through a tally of all enemies a player attacked and/or disposed of based off of like a % of damage dealt and who contributed to offense. I once played a party dedicated healer and buffer and got 0XP for combat and a smaller than fair share of ad-hoc XP for buffing/ healing and keeping the damage dealers alive. I basically screwed myself for the game, was always the last to level, but was one of the most important aspects of the team, able to heal all party members 30-40HP/turn if they needed, and provide buffs throughout combat, giving the needed extra chance to hit. I'm not saying the DM is a bad DM, he's a great DM he does a great job, but some players don't have the same goal or outlook and are not a cohesive unit, usually I'm one of the only ones relatively optimized. I've had to forcibly take commoner levels every 4th level just to keep myself from becoming too powerful in comparison before

[Brookshw]

Also a very good suggestion, however a few problems come up: 1. Only a 2 man party, and 2. Xp for combat is not evenly split among all members, but instead, how the DM handles it is through a tally of all enemies a player attacked and/or disposed of based off of like a % of damage dealt and who contributed to offense. I once played a party dedicated healer and buffer and got 0XP for combat and a smaller than fair share of ad-hoc XP for buffing/ healing and keeping the damage dealers alive. I basically screwed myself for the game, was always the last to level, but was one of the most important aspects of the team, able to heal all party members 30-40HP/turn if they needed, and provide buffs throughout combat, giving the needed extra chance to hit. I'm not saying the DM is a bad DM, he's a great DM he does a great job, but some players don't have the same goal or outlook and are not a cohesive unit, usually I'm one of the only ones relatively optimized. I've had to forcibly take commoner levels every 4th level just to keep myself from becoming too powerful in comparison

Rather unfair of him if you ask me, down that road lie many a problem.

[AdamantlyD20]

I've already brought to his attention my concern with over shadowing the other player, and have told him flat out, anything combat related we do, i am not to be given more than the xp the encounter is worth divided by the amount of players. I always thought that's how it was supposed to be anyway?

[Muja]

I've already brought to his attention my concern with over shadowing the other player, and have told him flat out, anything combat related we do, i am not to be given more than the xp the encounter is worth divided by the amount of players. I always thought that's how it was supposed to be anyway?

It is, players are meant to receive an even split of the xp by default. And for good reason, since a party with an uneven split in level based off of combat power differences will lead to an even bigger gap as the game goes on.

If I was in your position? Demand the DM use a more balanced, and if that doesn't work and its a group breaking tension then you as a character should spend the extra xp on things useful to the party like crafting utility items, casting permanancy'd spells, etc. If the DM doesn't allow that? Obviously you must polymorph the other player into a Dusk Giant (Heroes of Horror), and have him gain levels via eating enemies ad masse :smallamused: Watch the DM weep and laugh

[AdamantlyD20]

It is, players are meant to receive an even split of the xp by default. And for good reason, since a party with an uneven split in level based off of combat power differences will lead to an even bigger gap as the game goes on.

If I was in your position? Demand the DM use a more balanced, and if that doesn't work and its a group breaking tension then you as a character should spend the extra xp on things useful to the party like crafting utility items, casting permanancy'd spells, etc. If the DM doesn't allow that? Obviously you must polymorph the other player into a Dusk Giant (Heroes of Horror), and have him gain levels via eating enemies ad masse :smallamused: Watch the DM weep and laugh
Lol! Just gotta love this. I don't think a LE character would mind "godzilla" or king kong, nom nom nom

[TheDarkSaint]

If my DM did this, I would basically say "Ok. I will make a build that will get all of the XP and I will level up the fastest."

I have to wonder why anyone would want to play anything beyond an ubbercharger or a save or die wizard. Sounds...unfun.

[AdamantlyD20]

-Thread locked-