Help with a 3.5 build

[Jgosse]

so I had an Idea for a build last night and I was wondering if anyone can suggest ways to make it better. maybe improving the range of PBS and sneak ATK or improve my chances to survive in that 30 feat.
Part of me would want to go deep wood sniper (3.0 masters of the wild) but I always have to re tweek it for each new DM

comparing this build to a 9th level ranger for the cost of 1 BAB, 0-4 hp, woodland stride, and swift tracker I get 14SP, 2D6 sneak attack, trap finding, trap sense, and +2 on reflex saves.


martial Ranger 6 take distracting shot
rouge 3 for sneak attack

class abilities

saves 5/5/2+ 1/3/1

BAB 8

hp 6D8+3D6 +(con*9)
skill points 48+36+ (int*12)

favored enemy
track
Wild empathy
Rapid shot
endurance
distracting shot
2nd favored enemy
many shot
fast movement

sneak ATK 2D6
trapfinding
Evasion
trapsense +1

faults
1
2
Feats
ff1
ff2

1 Weapon focus
3 point blank shot
6 precise shot
9 Improved rapid shot

so what are your thoughts?

[ArcturusV]

Consider switching Rogue out for Scout? Instead of Sneak Attack you get Skirmish. Which gives you the same damage as long as you move, as well as some armor. Has most of the same skill sets, and if you take the particular feat Swift Hunter you can apply your Skirmish damage to favored enemies regardless of their usual resistance to precision damage (Thus you could take Favored Enemy: Undead, and still get your full damage off). The fact that you're constantly moving around for Skirmish means you're less likely to get surrounded and ganged up on, which also improves your survivability. And again, with Swift Hunter your Ranger levels and Scout levels both count for Skirmish progression, and for Favored Enemy progression. So you will end up with more damage that way, as you'll Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy as a 9th level, instead of only 2d6 sneak attack.

[Muja]

As a common understanding for any future posters, two questions: What Books are currently available for you to use for this build, and what is the intended 'goal' of this build?

[Jgosse]

Consider switching Rogue out for Scout? Instead of Sneak Attack you get Skirmish. Which gives you the same damage as long as you move, as well as some armor. Has most of the same skill sets, and if you take the particular feat Swift Hunter you can apply your Skirmish damage to favored enemies regardless of their usual resistance to precision damage (Thus you could take Favored Enemy: Undead, and still get your full damage off). The fact that you're constantly moving around for Skirmish means you're less likely to get surrounded and ganged up on, which also improves your survivability. And again, with Swift Hunter your Ranger levels and Scout levels both count for Skirmish progression, and for Favored Enemy progression. So you will end up with more damage that way, as you'll Sneak Attack and Favored Enemy as a 9th level, instead of only 2d6 sneak attack.
That sounds interesting. I will have to investigate.
but that loses the point of distracting shot.

[Red Fel]

That sounds interesting. I will have to investigate.
but that loses the point of distracting shot.

So lose Distracting Shot?

One of the big problems with Rogues is that, at higher levels, more enemies pop up with immunities to crits and Sneak Attack. Skirmish + Swift Hunter gets around that neatly. And as a bonus, your Ranger and Scout levels stack, as Arcturus mentioned - it's absurdly good.

Flanking is nice, and all, but if you don't need it, why waste the ACF?

Alternatively, keep Distracting Shot, and simply get a flanking bonus.

[Jgosse]

As a common understanding for any future posters, two questions: What Books are currently available for you to use for this build, and what is the intended 'goal' of this build?

goal max damage on ranged attack I guess.books I tend to stick to races ,completes, phb , phb 2, UE but for this anything that is WOTC .

[Xerlith]

First thought I had while looking at this build: Why isn't it Scout instead of Rogue?

Seconding all of the above Swift Hunter suggestions.

[Jgosse]

I will have to take another look at scout . I had only recently started to look at it for a bar barbarian build with spring attack. I will also have to check out swift Hunter.

[gorfnab]

Here are some handbooks that may provide you with some insight:
Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=e6fbnjr6p7n165f5tr5gan1r65&topic=103.0)
Archery Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=642.0)
Piggy Knowles Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284283)

Here are two Swift Hunter builds I've used before

Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Scout
3. Scout - Alertness (prereq for SoK)
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Favored of the Champions (prereq for SoK)
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Stalker of Kharash
9. Stalker of Kharash - Nemesis: Evil
10. Ranger - B: Endurance
11. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF)
12. Ranger - Improved Skirmish
13. Ranger - B: Manyshot
14. Ranger
15. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
16. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Darkstalker, B: Improved Precise Shot
19. Ranger
20. Ranger


Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Education
2. Scout
3. Scout - Precise Shot
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Improved Skirmish
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Ranger - B: Endurance
9. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF), Knowledge Devotion
10. Ranger
11. Ranger - B: Manyshot
12. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
13. Ranger
14. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
15. Ranger - Darkstalker
16. Ranger - B: Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - *Open Feat*
19. Ranger
20. Ranger

*Penetrating Shot, Nemesis: Arcanist, Dead Eye (Drg#304), or some other appropriate feat. If you're playing in Forgotten Realms take Sword of the Arcane Order at 15th and Darkstalker or Nemesis: Arcanist at 18th.

[ddude987]

Also consider mystic ranger for improved spells and earlier spell acquisition. You might need the DM to houserule swift hunter to work with mystic ranger, not sure if mystic ranger counts as ranger.

[Jgosse]

Also consider mystic ranger for improved spells and earlier spell acquisition. You might need the DM to houserule swift hunter to work with mystic ranger, not sure if mystic ranger counts as ranger.

I try and stay away from ranger spells . I normally get out before spells set in or take martial ranger and get out before that gets weird.

[ArcturusV]

Any reason why? I mean I know ranger spells aren't "flashy" necessarily but they tend to be pretty nice utility stuff.

[ddude987]

I wouldn't ever leave ranger, its full BaB, gives you decent abilities and free feats. The spells, as ArcturusV said, are just nice utility on top.

[Jgosse]

Any reason why? I mean I know ranger spells aren't "flashy" necessarily but they tend to be pretty nice utility stuff.
with the right dips, PrC, and magic Items a ranger does not need spells, the only spell I can think of that I liked is Arrow Mind and hunters mercy and as I normally have DMs who think as I do "there are always retired spell casters out there looking to make some money " so if I really miss them I can get an item.

[ArcturusV]

Huh... I mean just pulling out of core, spells I find quite useful include:

Animal Messenger, oddly useful in practical play terms.
Longstrider, because speed is speed and always useful.
Pass Without Trace, which again is really useful if you're doing "Scout" duty with a Ranger. Sucks when you locate an enemy and lead it right back to your not necessarily ready teammates.
Entangle, a great AoE battlefield control.
Spike Growth, again a great little AoE battlefield control.
Wind Wall, the "no" button to things like massed archers, flying swarms, etc.
Plant Growth, another great Battlefield Control option, the Ranger version of Solid Fog. Actually better than Solid Fog in quite a few ways.
Tree Shape. Almost the perfect "Oh ****, hide!" button, and proactive ambush spell.
Freedom of Movement, one of those "necessary magics" anyway.
Nondetection, same deal, "necessary magics".
Tree Stride, in a natural surrounding is a pretty boss Teleport effect, and decent for an escape as you can hide in trees for about a third of the day at the point you get it, better than a Rope Trick in my book, and we know how good rope trick is.

Course, that's just core. I mean, yeah, you can get items to do things like that, particularly if your DM lets you go crazy with custom magic items to cover effects. But... it's nice to have the spell slots. Things happen to items, or cohorts that cast spells for you, etc. It's a lot of versatility in a very easy package. I'm just saying if you're trading away the massively awesome utility of Ranger casting for something, it has to be pretty good. PrCs and such, maybe depending on concepts you're playing into. But the spell-less variants? ... eh. I don't quite think they measure up in practical terms.

Things like, "I slow down ever enemy within 600' to 5' per round" doesn't quite match up power wise with something like "For one round a day I can get +4 strength".

Just something to consider. I mean ranger casting isn't good for, or really meant for "Battlecasting" like a Paladin's "I hit things harder because I have magic" list generally is. But as far as sheer utility it's pretty high up there.

[Jgosse]

Huh... I mean just pulling out of core, spells I find quite useful include:

Animal Messenger, oddly useful in practical play terms.
Longstrider, because speed is speed and always useful.
Pass Without Trace, which again is really useful if you're doing "Scout" duty with a Ranger. Sucks when you locate an enemy and lead it right back to your not necessarily ready teammates.
Entangle, a great AoE battlefield control.
Spike Growth, again a great little AoE battlefield control.
Wind Wall, the "no" button to things like massed archers, flying swarms, etc.
Plant Growth, another great Battlefield Control option, the Ranger version of Solid Fog. Actually better than Solid Fog in quite a few ways.
Tree Shape. Almost the perfect "Oh ****, hide!" button, and proactive ambush spell.
Freedom of Movement, one of those "necessary magics" anyway.
Nondetection, same deal, "necessary magics".
Tree Stride, in a natural surrounding is a pretty boss Teleport effect, and decent for an escape as you can hide in trees for about a third of the day at the point you get it, better than a Rope Trick in my book, and we know how good rope trick is.

Course, that's just core. I mean, yeah, you can get items to do things like that, particularly if your DM lets you go crazy with custom magic items to cover effects. But... it's nice to have the spell slots. Things happen to items, or cohorts that cast spells for you, etc. It's a lot of versatility in a very easy package. I'm just saying if you're trading away the massively awesome utility of Ranger casting for something, it has to be pretty good. PrCs and such, maybe depending on concepts you're playing into. But the spell-less variants? ... eh. I don't quite think they measure up in practical terms.

Things like, "I slow down ever enemy within 600' to 5' per round" doesn't quite match up power wise with something like "For one round a day I can get +4 strength".

Just something to consider. I mean ranger casting isn't good for, or really meant for "Battlecasting" like a Paladin's "I hit things harder because I have magic" list generally is. But as far as sheer utility it's pretty high up there.

well there are two main reasons for me , I prefer to have combat capability and I feel that a ranger focusing on spells is better of being a druid. have never had above a 10th level ranger I always Dip and Prestige out.

[Jgosse]

So lose Distracting Shot?

One of the big problems with Rogues is that, at higher levels, more enemies pop up with immunities to crits and Sneak Attack. Skirmish + Swift Hunter gets around that neatly. And as a bonus, your Ranger and Scout levels stack, as Arcturus mentioned - it's absurdly good.

Flanking is nice, and all, but if you don't need it, why waste the ACF?

Alternatively, keep Distracting Shot, and simply get a flanking bonus.

This after reading again makes me think .
Any spell caster can create there own spells , I have fireball but prefer x element I do research and have acid/ice ball or fire arrow or ball of acid ect ect, but there is a feat Swift hunter and want to play ranger/rouge instead of ranger/scout I can't make Stealth hunter and switch out skirmish for sneak attack.

[gorfnab]

The neat thing about Mystic Ranger is getting 5th level spells in 10 levels of class, almost like a full caster . Combining this with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order nets you not only 0th-5th level Ranger/Mystic Ranger spells but also 0th-5th level Wizard spells.

[ddude987]

Each to his own, though I will say just because you are going mystic ranger does not mean you're focusing on spellcating. More so, you are using spellcasting to improve your combat ability.
-Longstrider for kiting in combat
-Entangle for more kiting and ensuring your enemies cannot escape you
-Cat's Grace for higher Dex mod, which means better hit chance, before grabbing an enhancment item
-Hunter's eye for sneak attack and more damage
-haste, swift more move speed, extra to hit, better reflex save, extra attack

all of these spells, and this is just a few, augment your ability to have combat. Sure spellcasting is more the Druid's role, but the druid does different things with spells. Heavy crowdcontrol and utility and the druids spells while a ranger's spells allow the ranger to be much more powerful in combat, and plenty of the rangers spells are swift actions which means you can still move and attack with skirmish.

edit: Just out of curiosity, does mystic ranger count as ranger for the swift hunter feat?

[Metahuman1]

Don't forget, splitting. And with a Lesser Metamagic Rod, you can Persist it.

And guess what, you have one of the best +4 weapons properties in the game on you all day no matter what Bow your using. That can effectively double your damage output.



Oh, speaking of bows, you will want this one.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

That is the single best bow a character can have, it can be upgraded like most magic weapons, and it get's around multiple problems archery has. Different kinds of Miss chance, Immunity's, Damage Reduction, add Str mod to damage regardless what it is which is really handy as long as you don't take a full dump on Str, get two handed power attack damage in and with the number of attacks your making + a not horrible str mod + Skirmish, a little goes a long way. All kinds of awesome.

[Darrin]

Duplicate post. Ignore.

[Darrin]

Here are some handbooks that may provide you with some insight:
Swift Hunter Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=e6fbnjr6p7n165f5tr5gan1r65&topic=103.0)
Archery Handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=642.0)
Piggy Knowles Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284283)

Here are two Swift Hunter builds I've used before

Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Scout
3. Scout - Alertness (prereq for SoK)
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Favored of the Champions (prereq for SoK)
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Stalker of Kharash
9. Stalker of Kharash - Nemesis: Evil
10. Ranger - B: Endurance
11. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF)
12. Ranger - Improved Skirmish
13. Ranger - B: Manyshot
14. Ranger
15. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
16. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Darkstalker, B: Improved Precise Shot
19. Ranger
20. Ranger


Human Swift Hunter
1. Scout - Point Blank Shot, Education
2. Scout
3. Scout - Precise Shot
4. Ranger - (Arcane Hunter ACF), B: Track
5. Scout - B: Swift Hunter
6. Scout - Improved Skirmish
7. Ranger - B: Rapid Shot
8. Ranger - B: Endurance
9. Ranger - (Distracting Attack ACF), Knowledge Devotion
10. Ranger
11. Ranger - B: Manyshot
12. Ranger - Greater Manyshot
13. Ranger
14. Ranger - (Spell Reflection ACF)
15. Ranger - Darkstalker
16. Ranger - B: Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - *Open Feat*
19. Ranger
20. Ranger

*Penetrating Shot, Nemesis: Arcanist, Dead Eye (Drg#304), or some other appropriate feat. If you're playing in Forgotten Realms take Sword of the Arcane Order at 15th and Darkstalker or Nemesis: Arcanist at 18th.

I'm not really an authority on archery-stuff, but other than putting a wand chamber in your bow and then buying a bunch of wands of sniper's shot, probably the best way to extend the range of precision damage is the Crossbow Sniper feat from PHBII. Here's my version of a Swift Hunter + Crossbow Sniper:


Crossbow Sniper 10d6 Skirmish: This build is based on a 10d6 Skirmish Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16411797&postcount=17) from an earlier post, which maximizes skirmish damage and throws in a little sorcerer casting, but to get all the feats in we have to swap out our Ranger casting for the Champion of the Wild ACF to pick up Manyshot early. Fortunately we still get hunter's eye and sniper's shot via Unseen Seer. I think this build also works with Lesser Drow and Savage Progression Drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a): take PB Shot at 3rd and Hand Crossbow Focus (counts as Rapid Reload + Weapon Focus) as your Fighter 1 bonus feat.

Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, or Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), Bonus: PB Shot, Bonus: Track. Wild Empathy -> Spiritual Connection ACF (Complete Champion). Favored Enemy: Undead.
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: Rapid Shot.
3) Scout 1. Feat: Rapid Reload. Skirmish 1d6
4) Fighter 1. Bonus: Weapon Focus: Light Crossbow.
5) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
6) Scout 3. Feat: Crossbow Sniper (PHBII). Skirmish 1d6AC+1.
7) Scout 4. Bonus: Swift Hunter. Skirmish 2d6AC+1.
8) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6AC+2.
9) Ranger 4. Champion of the Wild ACF -> Bonus: Manyshot (Complete Champion), Feat: Improved Rapid Shot. Animal Companion -> Distracting Attack ACF (PHBII) or Spiritual Guide ACF (Complete Champion).
10) Ranger 5. Favored Enemy: Undead again or Constructs. Skirmish 3d6AC+2.
11) Dragon Devotee 1.
12) Dragon Devotee 2. Feat: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 4d6AC+2/6d6AC+4.
13) Dragon Devotee 3. 1st level Sorcerer casting (pick at least 2 divination spells, such as true strike and detect undead).
14) Dragon Devotee 4. Skirmish 5d6AC+2/7d6AC+4
15) Unseen Seer 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Skirmish 6d6AC+2/8d6AC+4
16) Unseen Seer 2. Advanced Learning: hunter's eye (PHBII spell)
17) Unseen Seer 3.
18) Unseen Seer 4. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3). Skirmish 7d6AC+2/9d6AC+4
19) Highland Stalker 1.
20) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 8d6AC+2/10d6AC+4