Balancing tainted PrCs

[Xuldarinar]

Both a question and an attempt to provide a solution to a problem. Most of the tainted classes are, for all intents and purposes, completely and utterly broken.

If I recall correctly, this boils down to the following:
Corrupt Avenger
Maho-Bujin
Maho-Tsukai
Subverted Psion
Tainted Scholar
Tainted Sorcerer
Tainted Warrior

Now, the solution, I think is simple. Its a simple restriction, with absolutely no change to how any of the taint rules function. Restrict access to: Those with the shadowlands subtype (When it is available in a campaign), or restrict to only Undead and Outsiders (evil). Or possibly tag on the acquisition of the shadowlands subtype onto all.

Taint is then set, automatically, to 1/2 Cha, with +1 for undead, and +2 for outsiders. As a casting stat, we have this:

Table 1-1: Shadowlands (non-undead/non-outsider) Charisma to Taint
Charisma Score|Taint Score|Taint as casting stat
4-5|2|12
6-7|3|13
8-9|4|14
10-12|5|15
12-13|6|16
14-15|7|17
16-17|8|18
18-19|9|19
20-21|10|20
22-23|11|21
24-25|12|22
26-27|13|23
28-29|14|24

Long as you are below 20 charisma, you are ahead.

Table 1-2: Undead Charisma to Taint
Charisma Score|Taint Score|Taint as casting stat
4-5|3|13
6-7|4|14
8-9|5|15
10-11|6|16
12-13|7|17
14-15|8|18
16-17|9|19
18-19|10|20
20-21|11|21
22-23|12|22
24-25|13|23
26-27|14|24
28-29|15|25

Here, same deal except the tipping point is moved to 22

Table 1-3: Outsider Charisma to Taint
Charisma Score|Taint Score|Taint as casting stat
4-5|4|14
6-7|5|15
8-9|6|16
10-11|7|17
12-13|8|18
14-15|9|19
16-17|10|20
18-19|11|21
20-21|12|22
22-23|13|23
24-25|14|24
26-27|15|25
28-29|16|26

Again, same deal, but moved to 24.

As per oriental adventures, though it isn't explicitly stated afterwards, beings with automatic taint scores cannot acquire taint. Simply adding this restriction, or making it so anyone who enters a taint based class acquires the Shadowlands subtype, should balance this element out. Now, some of the tainted classes are not as broken so the alteration may not need be made to all. The subverted psion, for instance, isn't nearly as broken as the casters, though certainly is on the powerful end of things. The martial three aren't that over powered in relation either, and martial combatants can certainly use some power to balance the scales when compared to spellcasters anyways.



Any thoughts or other suggestions for balancing things out?

[BWR]

The Taint isn't supposed to be balanced. Rather, it's only balancing aspect is once you are Lost you are an NPC (barring some stupid stuff that was introduced after Oblivion's Gate, and even then you are an unrepentant servant of hell).

The Taint is a horrible afflicition. The slightest infection and you are destined to go to hell, no matter how good you are. Your body starts twisting, your mind grows gradually less stable. You become a liability, start And it grants you such wonderful benefits that many people don't really think about the consequences. The benefits it grants are supposed to be good, supposed to be more powerful than pure options, supposed to be pushing game-breaking. The temptation of power at the expense of your soul is one of the central aspects of the Taint, in addition to its corrupting effects and occasionally random targets. There is no way to entirely protect yourself against it, there is no way to detect it with 100% success, there is no way to guard against the unlucky and the weak succumbing to it.

So I will reiterate my points in earlier threads that most of the Taint conversions to d20 do not go far enough in playing up the power (or the drawbacks) of the Taint.

[herrhauptmann]

The Taint is a horrible afflicition. The slightest infection and you are destined to go to hell, no matter how good you are. Your body starts twisting, your mind grows gradually less stable. You become a liability, start And it grants you such wonderful benefits that many people don't really think about the consequences. The benefits it grants are supposed to be good, supposed to be more powerful than pure options, supposed to be pushing game-breaking. The temptation of power at the expense of your soul is one of the central aspects of the Taint, in addition to its corrupting effects and occasionally random targets. There is no way to entirely protect yourself against it, there is no way to detect it with 100% success, there is no way to guard against the unlucky and the weak succumbing to it.

When you put it like that, it sounds like the fiendish transposition in the AD&D Ravenloft's Van Richten Guides.
I like it.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The Taint isn't supposed to be balanced. Rather, it's only balancing aspect is once you are Lost you are an NPC (barring some stupid stuff that was introduced after Oblivion's Gate, and even then you are an unrepentant servant of hell).

The Taint is a horrible afflicition. The slightest infection and you are destined to go to hell, no matter how good you are. Your body starts twisting, your mind grows gradually less stable. You become a liability, start And it grants you such wonderful benefits that many people don't really think about the consequences. The benefits it grants are supposed to be good, supposed to be more powerful than pure options, supposed to be pushing game-breaking. The temptation of power at the expense of your soul is one of the central aspects of the Taint, in addition to its corrupting effects and occasionally random targets. There is no way to entirely protect yourself against it, there is no way to detect it with 100% success, there is no way to guard against the unlucky and the weak succumbing to it.

So I will reiterate my points in earlier threads that most of the Taint conversions to d20 do not go far enough in playing up the power (or the drawbacks) of the Taint.

Or you could just turn yourself into a Necropolitan for UNLIMITED POWERRRR. The RP aspect of it can be interesting sure but the tainted classes break down if the player just doesn't care about it.

I guess you could solve this problem by saying "You're only allowed to use one of the tainted PrCs if you RP them properly" but that opens a very nasty can of worms.

[BWR]

When you put it like that, it sounds like the fiendish transposition in the AD&D Ravenloft's Van Richten Guides.
I like it.


Not really, though I can see why you would think so.

The Taint is metaphysical grasp of the realm of Jigoku, the hell of Rokugani cosmology. Call it jealousy. The Taint seeps through the cracks between Hell and other Realms and tries to corrupt all it touches, be it land, spirits or creatures. The nature of Jigoku is corruption, and it tries to corrupt everything. The greatest crack between Jigoku and another Realm is the Festering Pit of Fu Leng, which is why the Shadowlands are so horrible.
The touch of Jigoku stains the soul beyond all recovery except in certain very specific and extraordinarily rare circumstances, consigning it to hell. The greater the stain, the more corruption, which is evident in the physical deformities and the mental problems. When the level of Taint exceeds the victim's limit, he is Lost and eternally serves Jigoku, body and soul.

Jigoku is not sentient, but it has will and purpose, and it often 'chooses' a champion to corrupt the other realms, usually focusing on Ningen-do, the Realm of Mortals. The fallen god Fu Leng was the champion of Jigoku for most of Rokugani history, but several before that, unknown to human history.

I highly recommend "The Book of the Shadowlands: The Writings of Kuni Mokuna" and "Bearers of Jade: the Second Book of the Shadowlands" for a better treatment on the subject. The latter especially does a great job at exploring the horrors of everything related to the Taint and the Shadowlands.



Or you could just turn yourself into a Necropolitan for UNLIMITED POWERRRR. The RP aspect of it can be interesting sure but the tainted classes break down if the player just doesn't care about it.

I guess you could solve this problem by saying "You're only allowed to use one of the tainted PrCs if you RP them properly" but that opens a very nasty can of worms.

And here we see the problems of bad conversion. In L5R, for all intents and purposes, all undead (note that spirits of the dead are not necessarily undead) are by definition enemies and usually Tainted, and can be either Tainted or pure depending on where they're from. Corporeal undead are by definition the work of the Taint, so just saying "I'm undead and immune" won't work - you would still be Tainted and serve Jigoku. And yes, I am of the opinion that RP limits should be enough. If the player doesn't care, it's the DM's job to enforce the game. Any player who starts RAW-whining should learn that the rules are there to support the game, not let them get away with things that are obviously working against intent.

[Xuldarinar]

Or you could just turn yourself into a Necropolitan for UNLIMITED POWERRRR. The RP aspect of it can be interesting sure but the tainted classes break down if the player just doesn't care about it.

I guess you could solve this problem by saying "You're only allowed to use one of the tainted PrCs if you RP them properly" but that opens a very nasty can of worms.

But it does not work that way at all. Under the rules, taint is then fixed to 1/2 Charisma, +1. If you are playing with the shadowlands subtype in play, then becoming undead without the subtype does nothing but becoming undead with the subtype gives the aforementioned set score(s).

Of course the RP solution works, given mature players.


Edit: And what is with the whole "just become necropolitan" thing? Has anyone read what is required to become one? Really thought about it?

[mangosta71]

Becoming a necropolitan is pure cheese most of the time. I've considered it, and even roleplayed a character who went through the ritual, but I'm honest enough to admit that the only reason I looked at it at all was optimizing a dread necromancer that I fully intended to take into the tainted scholar PrC.

[ShurikVch]

There is no way to entirely protect yourself against it, there is no way to detect it with 100% success, there is no way to guard against the unlucky and the weak succumbing to it.
From the Oriental Adventures:

Nezumi can never acquire a Taint score, and suffer no ill effects from exposure to the Shadowlands. Effects such as the cloud of Taint spell or the special attacks of Shadowlands creatures can still harm them, however.
All nagas are immune to the Shadowlands Taint. They can still be harmed by effects such as the cloud of Taint spell, but they can never have a Taint score.
Crow: When the tattooed monk calls on the power of this tattoo, he becomes immune to the Shadowlands Taint for one day per tattoo he possesses, and gains a +1 resistance bonus on all Will saving throws for the same duration. After using this ability, the tattooed monk cannot activate the crow tattoo for five more days. Tattooed monks in campaigns other than Rokugan do not use the crow tattoo.

[Zanos]

Edit: And what is with the whole "just become necropolitan" thing? Has anyone read what is required to become one? Really thought about it?
There are many reasons one might legitimately become a Necropolitian, many of which fit the nature of PC's. Dedication to accomplish something beyond a normal lifespan is one, but I've personally used incurable physical diseases and desire to dull emotional loss as RP justifications for characters desiring undeath.

[ArcturusV]

Well... I can't imagine Taint Boosting is necessarily a problem. Granted, like I said before, only used the OA version. But the problem I usually see mentioned with Taint involves something like jacking up to have some ungodly caster stat based off your Taint Score (And bonus spells for Maho-Tsukais).

But consider what the Maho-Bujin and Maho-Tsukai have under "Taint Suppression". "No longer applies it as a penalty to their constitution. Applies half their taint score as a penalty to their wisdom".

Even the "Become undead" thing shouldn't protect you. It's not Ability Damage, or Ability Drain that Undead Traits may protect you from. It's just an "Ability Penalty". Which they are vulnerable to.

Thus the line of using Maho is constantly trying to balance it out. Particularly as if you come from Rokugan, there are no Wisdom based caster classes, they're Charisma Based (Sorcerer, Shugenja) or Taint Based (Maho-Tsukai). So you probably aren't rocking out that 25-30 Wisdom. Probably more like 10. So by the time you hit 20 Taint, you're at an effective 0 Wisdom, unconscious and helpless. Below 20... it's not really all that much of a boost. All I'd do is cut out that "+10" bit to the Blood Casting bonus spells. It's really just self indulgent.

[Xuldarinar]

There are many reasons one might legitimately become a Necropolitian, many of which fit the nature of PC's. Dedication to accomplish something beyond a normal lifespan is one, but I've personally used incurable physical diseases and desire to dull emotional loss as RP justifications for characters desiring undeath.

My point is more in regards to the process of becoming one, than the reasons why one may choose to become one. It isn't a simple thing, a process of searching, begging, then of intense prolonged agony. Granted, reasons to drive one to undertake the process are important. But really what gets to me is that a lot of statements (to my perception) seem to disregard what all is required to become one, as if someone one day wakes up and goes "I wanna be a necropolitan" and just like that it happens. Perhaps I am just reading them wrong.

[Xuldarinar]

Well... I can't imagine Taint Boosting is necessarily a problem. Granted, like I said before, only used the OA version. But the problem I usually see mentioned with Taint involves something like jacking up to have some ungodly caster stat based off your Taint Score (And bonus spells for Maho-Tsukais).

But consider what the Maho-Bujin and Maho-Tsukai have under "Taint Suppression". "No longer applies it as a penalty to their constitution. Applies half their taint score as a penalty to their wisdom".

Even the "Become undead" thing shouldn't protect you. It's not Ability Damage, or Ability Drain that Undead Traits may protect you from. It's just an "Ability Penalty". Which they are vulnerable to.

Thus the line of using Maho is constantly trying to balance it out. Particularly as if you come from Rokugan, there are no Wisdom based caster classes, they're Charisma Based (Sorcerer, Shugenja) or Taint Based (Maho-Tsukai). So you probably aren't rocking out that 25-30 Wisdom. Probably more like 10. So by the time you hit 20 Taint, you're at an effective 0 Wisdom, unconscious and helpless. Below 20... it's not really all that much of a boost. All I'd do is cut out that "+10" bit to the Blood Casting bonus spells. It's really just self indulgent.

Assuming you are keeping with it's version of taint or UA's, you are 100% correct. If you are using HoH, the latest version and it has a section addressing Oriental adventures, Taint suppression changes to its version and Maho-Tsukai's casting is then based on Depravity.

[Zanos]

My point is more in regards to the process of becoming one, than the reasons why one may choose to become one. It isn't a simple thing, a process of searching, begging, then of intense prolonged agony. Granted, reasons to drive one to undertake the process are important. But really what gets to me is that a lot of statements (to my perception) seem to disregard what all is required to become one, as if someone one day wakes up and goes "I wanna be a necropolitan" and just like that it happens. Perhaps I am just reading them wrong.
Optimization discussions generally leave out RP consequences for pretty much everything, since how RP is handled by DMs doesn't really have a common ground starting point like RAW.

The text for the ritual does specifically states that many have second thoughts once the pain sets in, but they are powerless to stop it and that point. I also always read the written plea as more of an application than begging, but I supposed it could be interpreted in different ways.

[Xuldarinar]

Optimization discussions generally leave out RP consequences for pretty much everything, since how RP is handled by DMs doesn't really have a common ground starting point like RAW.

The text for the ritual does specifically states that many have second thoughts once the pain sets in, but they are powerless to stop it and that point. I also always read the written plea as more of an application than begging, but I supposed it could be interpreted in different ways.

I prefer to phrase it that way. I know it is an application, but you are asking for them to do something for you, and they under no obligation necessarily to preform the ritual on you just because you handed in the written plea and payed the cost.

[mangosta71]

Some organizations may require less begging than others. If you go to the temple of Nerull, they'd probably be perfectly willing to perform it upon any supplicant. Pelor, not so much.

[Zanos]

Some organizations may require less begging than others. If you go to the temple of Nerull, they'd probably be perfectly willing to perform it upon any supplicant. Pelor, not so much.
The problem is that Nocturnus is the only official RAW organization that offers the rite, and it's inherently secretive.

Beyond that, pretty much no information is offered about the city beyond "bunch of intelligent undead", so what it's actually like and who they accept is DM territory, and highly variable.

[BWR]

From the Oriental Adventures:

I ignored those because 1) nezumi and naga are not generally meant as PCs in L5R, despite getting sourcebooks (and there are a few other cheats that generally work), b) Crow makes you shine like a beacon attracting all Tainted monsters, and can be bypassed if you intentionally undertake actions that give Taint. The spell Strength of the Crow works much the same way. Like jade, they are not perfect defenses.