The most unbalanced monsters for each CR up to 20 (or so)?

[Isamu Dyson]

Has anyone here ever taken a look at monsters from CR 1/2 to CR 29 and compiled a list of the monsters which are significantly, if not horribly, underrated at their assigned CRs?

Templates are allowed :smallcool:.

Whatever you post, please describe why it deserves mention.

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Here is some music to get you in the mood.

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CR 1/2: Orc [Monster Manual]? Skiurid [Monster Manual IV]?

CR 1: Leech Swarm [Stormwrack]? Pseudodragon Monster Manual]? Revived Fossil Baboon [Libris Mortis + Monster Manual]?

CR 2: Fleshraker [Monster Manual III]? Lesser Cranium Rat Swarm [Fiend Folio]?

CR 3: Allip [Monster Manual]? Mirror Mephit [Expedition to the Demonweb Pits]? Monstrous Crab [Wizards Article]? Runehound [Monster Manual III]? Rust Monster [Monster Manual]?

CR 4: Hammerclaw [Stormwrack]? Spectral Lyrist [Libris Mortis]? Wyrmling Pyroclastic Dragon [Draconomicon]?

CR 5: Basilisk [Monster Manual]? Ephemeral Swarm [Monster Manual III]? Six-Headed Hydra [Monster Manual]?

CR 6: Will-O’-Wisp [Monster Manual]?

CR 7: Arrow Demon [Monster Manual III]? Bleakborn [Libris Mortis]? Cloaker Lord [Monsters of Faerun]? Nimblewright [Monster Manual II]?

CR 8: Drowned [Monster Manual III]?

CR 9: Adamantine Clockwork Horror [Monster Manual II]?

CR 10: Greater Storm Elemental [Monster Manual III]?

CR 11: Shadesteel Golem [Monster Manual III]?

CR 12: Chaoswyrd [Dragon Magazine Compendium]? Half-Fiend Greater Air Elemental [Monster Manual]?

CR 13: Ghaele [Monster Manual]?

CR 14: Trumpet Archon [Monster Manual]?

CR 15: Elemental Weird [Monster Manual II]? Omnimental [Monster Manual III]?

CR 16: Planetar [Monster Manual]?

CR 17: Klurichir [Fiend Folio]?

CR 18: Great Wyrm Steel Dragon [Dragons of Faerun / Wizards Article]?

CR 19: Maruspawn Abomination [Sandstorm]?

CR 20: ?

CR 21: ?

CR 22: ?

CR 23: Angel, Solar [Monster Manual]?

CR 24: ?

CR 25: Phane [Epic Level Handbook]?

CR 26: Great Wyrm Silver Dragon [Monster Manual]?

CR 27: Great Wyrm Gold Dragon [Monster Manual]?

CR 28: ?

CR 29: Demilich [Epic Level Handbook]?

[Spore]

Goblins that know how to "aid another" correctly. 4 Minion Goblins that aid the "Big Boss" in hitting the poor level 1 adventurer netting in +12 or more to Attacks. Carnage ensues.

[Zanos]

Orcs are actually kinda insane for 1/2 CR, 2d4+4 falchions with 18-20 crit has led to many a level 1 death.

[Isamu Dyson]

Is the Drowned (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82985.jpg) (from Monster Manual III) the most broken CR 8 baddie?

[Big Fau]

Obligatory Adamantine Horror reference.

Allips, at CR3, are downright lethal without a Cleric or immunity to Mind Affecting abilities (very uncommon at 3rd level).

[Zanos]

Oh, obligatory that damn crab. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

[Isamu Dyson]

Allips, at CR3, are downright lethal without a Cleric or immunity to Mind Affecting abilities (very uncommon at 3rd level).

What kind of pipe leaf were the writers smoking when they came up with the Allip? It's not even slow!


Oh, obligatory that damn crab. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

Both the Allip and Monstrous Crab are CR 3. Which is worse overall?

[ddude987]

Don't forget the dread blossom swarm from MMIII

[Isamu Dyson]

Don't forget the dread blossom swarm from MMIII

What makes them a CR 6 monstrosity?

[Vedhin]

CR 5: Ephemeral Swarm, MMIII.

Undead, Incorporeal, Tiny swarm, 12HD. Int 2, and swarm damage is 1d6 Str.

This bugger can take out parties of ECL 10 or higher that aren't prepared for it. ECL 5 is a punching bag.

[Isamu Dyson]

Until proven otherwise, I think the (Core) Great Wyrm Gold Dragon deserves the CR 27 spot.

[137beth]

Are we talking only overpowered monsters, or are underpowered monsters eligible too? A lot of the most underpowered high-level slots are probably filled with big martial brutes.


Dragons are a decent contender at many levels for OP monsters, although they do have a few weaknesses...

[ArcturusV]

CR 2: Hiveminds from Book of Vile Darkness.

... Epic level sorcerers, at CR 2. I believe that says enough about most unbalanced.

CR 1: Leech Swarm from It's Wet Outside.

Seriously at CR 1, there's no way in hell anyone is going to be able to deal with them around the levels they're supposed to be encountered at. The DC 20 + Spell level check for casting at the swarm, IF you pass the save versus nauseated, means that even if you do have a wizard who could fry it.... they're probably not going to be able to. 1d6 damage plus 1 Con damage every round. With their +16 to hide they can roughly hit you about 4 time before you even have a 50/50 shot of noticing that you're almost/already dead from it. Ain't hard to TPK parties with this.

[Incanur]

Allips are way worse than monstrous crabs. Various 3rd-level parties will literally have no way to harm an allip, as nobody can afford a +1 weapon at this point. Lower-level parties - for which allips shouldn't overwhelming - are in even worse shape. If you don't have a cleric, you're probably screwed - and even with a cleric it's not any easy encounter because of turn resistance and the fact that the cleric might get fascinated. Against an allip, there's no way to escape if you can't damage it, and it's smart enough (11 Int) to take advantage of being incorporeal. The crap has massive stats, but no brains, ability to pass through barriers unhindered, or near immunity to damage. A pouncing barbarian actually has a good chance of killing it outright in the first round if the barb wins initiative. On the other hand, an allip can't actually kill you - just leave you helpless - while the crab will kill you and eat you. :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

Tarrasque. Wayyyy over-CRed, mostly due to a lack of immunities and its sharp limitations on attacking anything that's not dragging its feet slowly on the ground of the material plane.

[Big Fau]

What kind of pipe leaf were the writers smoking when they came up with the Allip? It's not even slow!

Both the Allip and Monstrous Crab are CR 3. Which is worse overall?

I'd say the Allip, as it can kill the crab. The Crab also got nerfed in Stormwrack IIRC.

[Isamu Dyson]

CR 2: Hiveminds from Book of Vile Darkness.

... Epic level sorcerers, at CR 2. I believe that says enough about most unbalanced.

I'll go take a look at the BoVD...


CR 1: Leech Swarm from It's Wet Outside.

What is "It's Wet Outside"?

[Incanur]

The ibrandlin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65206) is a contender for CR 5.

The runehound from MM3 for CR 3.

[Vedhin]

I'll go take a look at the BoVD...



What is "It's Wet Outside"?

Stormwrack.

Guide to the annoying, semi-common alternate names along this line:

It's Cold Outside=Frostburn
It's Hot Outside=Sandstorm
It's Wet Outside=Stormwrack

And occasionally:
It's Croweded Outside=Cityscape
It's Not Outside=Dungeonscape



The ibrandlin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65206) is a contender for CR 5.

The Ephemeral Swarm eats it for breakfast, since the ibrandlin can't hit incorporeal things. Lunch and dinner are unsuspecting adventurers of level 10ish and under. Snack is level 5 adventurers.

[Eldariel]

I assume this is stock creatures (e.g. no Dragons or advanced monsters since they basically always have to be customized)?

Fleshraker is pretty horrid as a CR 2 encounter.


Allip vs. Crab (the online crab since that's the scary one; if we use Stormwrack Crab, ignore this discussion): Allip is horrible even if you do have a Cleric it's getting Temp HP shields while your team is whiffing in the air and if you Turn it (through its Turn Resistance; it's a 6 HD creature for that purpose), it just runs through walls and comes back achieving basically nothing (you need Sun-domain Cleric and even there, he's not favored to succeed on ECL 3). And it's immune to basically everything useful you could throw at it.

Command Undead would be just about your only recourse for a level 3 party (let alone a party who comes across one as a challenging encounter on level 1-2) which, if successful, still causes Wisdom damage (and allows Will-save at the Allip's +4 bonus meaning you probably need it as a prepared spell and even there, you're looking at about 40% chance of failure and you usually don't have multiple Command Undeads prepared on level 3). 26 HP is plenty to take the occasional hit from a bruiser even if they do have a magic weapon (50% miss chance + AC 15 = hit chances aren't spectacular for a low level character even if it isn't inside a wall) and that's if the beatstick made the save vs. Babble. Even if you do deal with it though the Wisdom Drain can have crippling consequences, especially on divine casters.


That said, That Damn Crab is an absurdly tough bruiser. AC 19 is a lot on this level, 66 HP is a lot, 40' move speed means kiting-based strategies are more or less infeasible and if it hits + improved grabs + constricts successfully it probably just kills you (few level 1-3 characters have 27 HP, which it averages; and few have a reasonable chance of resisting +19 grapple).

It just doesn't really have an exploitable weakness. You can Glitterdust and Web it to buy time if the party is level 3 but you need to somehow deal with it. And it's supposedly a valid encounter for level 1 characters who have none of the magic necessary to do anything to it.


The biggest thing in That Damn Crab's favor is unlike Allip, it's brutal. It kills fast. Allip usually takes a bit longer (though since it bypasses HP and uses touch attacks it's more dangerous for higher level characters). Then again, level 1 characters can't really damage Allip (Magic Missile & al. will mostly be absorbed by its temporary HP). I'd say level 1 they're equally bad (Allip is hopeless; you can't harm it unless you have access to Magic Weapon and honestly, Allip can just escape if harmed and come back later; while insane it is fairly intelligent - That Damn Crab just stomps all over you though at least Color Spray/Grease might hold it at bay for a round or two), level 2 Crab is worse (they probably have Scroll of Magic Weapon or two so they might stand a chance at at least holding Allip back while That Damn Crab still kills them with reckless abandon), level 3 and higher Allip is worse (level 3 characters can actually survive one round vs. the Crab and they have the spells to inconvenience it so that it can actually be fought, while Allip is ignoring peoples' HP and still being a bitch to hit and immune to most spells).

[Isamu Dyson]

The runehound from MM3 for CR 3.

DR 5/Silver and Fast Healing 3 can be nasty. What else makes this beastie worthy of the CR 3 spot?

[CTrees]

There's always the revived fossil baboon at CR1, but I don't recall if that's in a book, or if that's just an unfortunate template application.

[Incanur]

The runehound also has 50ft speed, 10ft reach with Combat Reflexes and Dex 14, web breath, 500ft blindsight, and immunity to flanking.

The ephemeral swarm does probably take the CR 5 spot, though the ibrandlin can kill faster. It's kind of like the allip vs. monstrous crab.

[Isamu Dyson]

There's always the revived fossil baboon at CR1, but I don't recall if that's in a book, or if that's just an unfortunate template application.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Baboon

AC 24 (!), HP 27 (!), Damage Reduction 10/Adamantine (!), 40 foot land speed / 30 foot climb speed, and Undead immunities make for a fearsome CR 1 encounter...

[Big Fau]

The runehound also has 50ft speed, 10ft reach with Combat Reflexes and Dex 14, web breath, 500ft blindsight, and immunity to flanking.

The Web breath weapon is an absolute killer, but 500ft blindsight takes the cake. Absolute nightmare without Darkstalker, damn difficult with. It gives the Allip a run for its money.

[bekeleven]

The runehound also has 50ft speed, 10ft reach with Combat Reflexes and Dex 14, web breath, 500ft blindsight, and immunity to flanking.

The ephemeral swarm does probably take the CR 5 spot, though the ibrandlin can kill faster. It's kind of like the allip vs. monstrous crab.

In addition to web breath, it has 5d6 acid breath with the same range (100') and a separate cooldown. So it kites the party while lobbing webs and acid, and anybody that gets a charge off takes AoOs.

[Incanur]

If templates count, though, we may end seeing a lot of the same critters on the list.

[Isamu Dyson]

If templates count, though, we may end seeing a lot of the same critters on the list.

Fair enough. Templates are allowed, but try to avoid overusing them.

[Eldariel]

Ah yes, the "why" on Fleshraker [MM3]: it has 4 attacks + rake (albeit only two at +6; two are +1 and rake is +2). Both the primary Claws and one secondary apply DC 14 Fort-save poison that does 1d6 Dex damage (so if you fail the save, your AC will drop which means this thing's full attack will hurt that much more). Furthermore, it gets a free trip in conjunction with its charge, and a free grapple if that succeeds. Oh, and it has AC 20. Its saves are pretty good too aside from the +3 Will-save, which suggests to me that you ought to Color Spray it. It's still a one-round killer

So, to reiterate:
Charge +8/+8 Claws for 1d6+3 (plus DC 14 Fort poison), +4 Rake for 1d6+2, +3 Bite for 1d6+1 & +3 Tail for 1d6+1 (plus DC 14 Fort poison). If any of those hits, free Trip at +3. If that succeeds, free Grapple at +6.

AC 20, +4 Initiative, +12 Hide, 50' move speed (100' Charge distance).

CR 2. Though if someone can find a superscary alternative that doesn't have the Will-save weakness or is more intelligent, that will top this. Still, I posit Fleshraker.


CR 9 should probably be Adamantine Clockwork Horror [MM2], as mentioned earlier. 28 AC, Construct traits, 16 HD for 88 HP, 22 SR, +18 melee for 2d10+7, but the kicker? Spell-likes: Disintegrate, Implosion, Disjunction At Will. Okay, so the save DCs are only DC 24 but how many ECL 9 (let alone ECL 5-6) parties can handle Disjunction? Best part is, even if you do beat it, it has like no treasure (50%, gems only) and you probably lost most of your magic items. To add insult to injurity, it has Improved Sunder as a bonus feat. Best part? Its weakness is that Shatter blinds it for 1d4+1 rounds (if you get through the spell resistance) but what does it care? Disjunction is an AOE.

[ddude987]

What makes them a CR 6 monstrosity?

The paralysis ability does not say when to make a save, so RAW you make infinite saves and are therefore auto paralyzed.

[Incanur]

Consider steel dragon great wyrm for CR 18. Casts as a 21-level sorc, 536hp, 44 base AC, etc.

[Isamu Dyson]

Consider steel dragon great wyrm for CR 18. Casts as a 21-level sorc, 536hp, 44 base AC, etc.

Which book do they debut in?

[Vedhin]

Which book do they debut in?

Online, IIRC. I'll be back with a link if so.

Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a)

[Incanur]

I'm familiar with steel dragons from Dragons of Faerun. But they are online: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a. They're potential contenders at almost any CR because of the sorc casting. A young dragon has 85hp and caster level 5 at CR 4, etc.

[Silva Stormrage]

Beholders are pretty dang lethal and might qualify for the cr 13 spot.

Elemental Weirds also should get in this CR 15 casts as an 18th level sorcerer with bonuses and massive divination bonuses.

Also there might need to be a spot for templates too. Vampire is pretty dang strong for +2 CR.

Edit: Spectral Lyrists from Libris Mortis are also deadly for the same reason as Allips. CR 4, 33% more hit points than an Allip, extra damage (And to a common dump stat) but the damage allows a save (Which is high at 18 and increases each time the creature uses the touch as the touch grants 1 charisma to the spectral lyrist. That paired with the fact that it can disguise itself incredibly well and also use suggestion on creatures. It can be a PAIN to fight at that level.

[Vedhin]

Elemental Weirds also should get in this CR 15 casts as an 18th level sorcerer with bonuses and massive divination bonuses FREE ACTION DIVINATIONS.

Fixed that. If the DM does not enforce a limit on free actions/round, a intelligently played Elemental Weird wins. That's against anything not named Pun-Pun. They still have a fighting chance against Pun-Pun, as they can ensure he never ascends.

For CR 6, the Gravbeast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040627a) is a contender. Powerful Pounce is the big thing, giving it 6 attacks dealing 2d6+4 damage. Reverse Gravity and Gravitic Turbulence are a nasty combination.

[Silva Stormrage]

Fixed that. If the DM does not enforce a limit on free actions/round, a intelligently played Elemental Weird wins. That's against anything not named Pun-Pun. They still have a fighting chance against Pun-Pun, as they can ensure he never ascends.

For CR 6, the Gravbeast (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040627a) is a contender. Powerful Pounce is the big thing, giving it 6 attacks dealing 2d6+4 damage. Reverse Gravity and Gravitic Turbulence are a nasty combination.

Fair enough :smalltongue: Though its not necessarily an instant win, an epic level wizard with mind blank up 24/7 can still win :smalltongue:

[Karnith]

Also there might need to be a spot for templates too. Vampire is pretty dang strong for +2 CR.
Half-Celestial and Half-Fiendish can also be pretty silly, since they grant SLAs based on HD.
If you're wondering why I bring this up a lot, it happened to me.
Why, hello there CR 12 Half-Fiendish Air Elemental, with your fly speed of 100 ft. (perfect) and CL 21 Blasphemy.

[Isamu Dyson]

Some Epic Level monsters (from the Epic Level Handbook) are terrible for their assigned CRs.

Here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html#brachyurus) is one example. Wouldn't a CR 23 dragon likely be a bigger threat?

[Karnith]

Here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html#brachyurus) is one example. Wouldn't a CR 23 dragon likely be a bigger threat?
Given that a Brachyurus can't really do anything to flying enemies, yes.

WotC didn't really know what they were doing when they CR'd a lot of 3.0 creatures, and epic levels are pretty broken anyway. I suspect that darts and boards were involved.

[Isamu Dyson]

Given that a Brachyurus can't really do anything to flying enemies, yes.

WotC didn't really know what they were doing when they CR'd a lot of 3.0 creatures. I suspect that darts and boards were involved.

At which CR/ECL is flight capability a necessity for a monster to be a threat?

[Big Fau]

At which CR/ECL is flight capability a necessity for a monster to be a threat?

PCs get flight at level 5, maybe 6.

[Vhaidara]

Edit: Spectral Lyrists from Libris Mortis are also deadly for the same reason as Allips. CR 4, 33% more hit points than an Allip, extra damage (And to a common dump stat) but the damage allows a save (Which is high at 18 and increases each time the creature uses the touch as the touch grants 1 charisma to the spectral lyrist. That paired with the fact that it can disguise itself incredibly well and also use suggestion on creatures. It can be a PAIN to fight at that level.

Seconded, as someone who has had to fight one. 6 level 5 PCs, including a Sun/Healing/Radiant Servant cleric, and only 1 person made their save. Almost wiped us.

[Vedhin]

Fair enough :smalltongue: Though its not necessarily an instant win, an epic level wizard with mind blank up 24/7 can still win :smalltongue:

No. He can't. The Elemental Weird's Prescience ability is as follows:

Prescience (Su): At will and as
a free action, a weird can duplicate the
effect of any of the following divination
spells: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other
plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight,
greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues,
true seeing, vision. Caster level 18th; save DC 16 + spell level

The key is Contact Other Plane. Essentially, the Elemental Weird plays 20 Questions with Cthultu. Or some other entity, but Cthultu is funnier. And it gets as many questions as it wants. It can locate things indirectly, by asking questions like "If I were to teleport a grain of sand to coordinates XYZ, would the spell fail?" It asks this question a bunch of times to even out the probability, and selects the true answer from there. The indirect questioning doesn't actually reveal information about or target the wizard, so Mind Blank does nothing.

[Silva Stormrage]

No. He can't. The Elemental Weird's Prescience ability is as follows:

Prescience (Su): At will and as
a free action, a weird can duplicate the
effect of any of the following divination
spells: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/clairvoyance, contact other
plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight,
greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues,
true seeing, vision. Caster level 18th; save DC 16 + spell level

The key is Contact Other Plane. Essentially, the Elemental Weird plays 20 Questions with Cthultu. Or some other entity, but Cthultu is funnier. And it gets as many questions as it wants. It can locate things indirectly, by asking questions like "If I were to teleport a grain of sand to coordinates XYZ, would the spell fail?" It asks this question a bunch of times to even out the probability, and selects the true answer from there. The indirect questioning doesn't actually reveal information about or target the wizard, so Mind Blank does nothing.

But it can't spam contact other plane. It doesn't have enough intelligence to make the check reliably enough to actually use it that frequently.

Another monster that is probably undercr'ed

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm
CR 13, casts as 14th level clerics with a BUNCH of good SLA's. Not sure if its the strongest but its pretty deadly.

[Vedhin]

But it can't spam contact other plane. It doesn't have enough intelligence to make the check reliably enough to actually use it that frequently.

Prescience is (Su), so no minimum Int/Cha is needed. If it fails a check, it just tries again.

[Eldariel]

I mean, for CR 21 we probably have to go with Sarrukh. Serpent Kingdoms, it has the most unfortunately worded ability ever in "Manipulate Form", which effectively says "do whatever you want to a scaled one of Toril". I mean, yeah, it's CR 21 and Manipulate Form does cause system shock but...small price for literally limitless power.

[Battleship789]

Planetars are pretty nasty for CR 16: Cleric 17 casting, Regeneration, SR 30, and a pretty good SLA list.

[lunar2]

well, for just being straight up under CR'ed, i'd say the greater barghest at CR 5. as printed it's at least a CR 7, and properly advanced (WotC made a bunch of mistakes advancing from the barghest) is closer to CR 8.

[Eldariel]

The worst part about Elemental Weirds is that Prescience is (su), they're 15 HD (within Polymorph/Metamorphosis limits), Elementals (no type shenanigans needed) and Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer are things. Ergo, if PCs ever hit 15 HD even for just few moments (say, with an Inspire Heroicsing Bard with Words of Creation) or if somebody tosses Polymorph Any Object their way (it apparently doesn't care about HD, being able to turn a Lizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizard.htm) into a Manticore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm)), they can be turned/turn into an Elemental Weird and get that ability and basically gain omniscience in the span of one round.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Although less terrifying than the fossil, it's an official creature: The living burning hands, from the ECS. The scary part being DR 10/magic at CR 1. Other than that, it's got 5hp, pitiful AC and low damage.

Living sleep/color spray are scarier, but that's just judicious use of the living spell template.

[erikun]

This thread (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5481.0) might be worth looking into. Just taking a look at the first page, I'm seeing Hammerclaw (Stormwrack), Cloaker Lord (Monsters of Faerun), Adamantine Horror (MMII), and Ephemereal Swarm (MMIII) are worth looking at.

[Phaederkiel]

I personally have a soft spot for Murderjacks at cr 9 ( I almost managed to wipe a lvl 12 Party with one of those guys...), 10th lvl Bard casting, frightening presence, lotsa HP, 7d6 sneak, damn good skills, miss chance, and the worst: clever combat tactics.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040828a

and I have to wonder why the assasin vine is not mentioned, old killer that it is. I mean, it obviously cannot hold a candle to the incorporeal nasties, but it still pack a punch, and the entangle is quite dangerous. Combined with its stealth abilities, it has great capabilities to kill a character. And it is Core. That should count for something.

[Isamu Dyson]

Planetars are pretty nasty for CR 16: Cleric 17 casting, Regeneration, SR 30, and a pretty good SLA list.

Planetars are rather tough for ECL 16, yeah.

[Phaederkiel]

oh, and the sharn seems to be good for cr 8:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5481.msg81573#msg81573

[Isamu Dyson]

well, for just being straight up under CR'ed, i'd say the greater barghest at CR 5. as printed it's at least a CR 7, and properly advanced (WotC made a bunch of mistakes advancing from the barghest) is closer to CR 8.

What makes the Greater Barghest noteworthy?

[Zanos]

Planetars are rather tough for ECL 16, yeah.
Considering the fact that a 17th level cleric is CR 17, planetars are just broken. Cleric 17 with regeneration and resistances, outsider hit dice, etc...

Clearly all those special qualities make the cleric casting worse somehow.

[Isamu Dyson]

Considering the fact that a 17th level cleric is CR 17, planetars are just broken. Cleric 17 regeneration with regeneration resistance, outsider hit dice, etc...

Clearly all those special qualities make the cleric casting worse somehow.

Might not some or even all of those "icing on top" abilities be replicated by a Level 17 equipment loadout?

[Rubik]

Anything with the greenbound template, especially for a summoner with the Greenbound Summoner feat.

Cast a 1st level Summon Nature's Ally to gain a creature that can cast two 1st level spells and one 3rd level spell at will, as well as one 5th level spell 1/casting?

Plus, at higher levels especially, it's a plant with an extra +6 natural armor, DR 10 magic and slashing, fast healing 3, +4 to grappling, cold and electricity resistance 10, tremorsense 60', Str +6, Dex +2, Con +4, Cha +4, +16 to Hide and Move Silently while in forested areas, and an extra slam attack.

That's really nice, and it only costs one feat for the summoner.

[TuggyNE]

Might not some or even all of those "icing on top" abilities be replicated by a Level 17 equipment loadout?

Not really, since the Planetar also gets gear, though not as much.

[Ksheep]

If you're looking for poorly-CR'd monsters, just look at MMII. There are a LOT of monsters that are horribly mislabeled. This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046) looks at them, determines what their CR should be, and discuss the odd designs, etc. Unfortunately, they only got to Gravorg before the thread died (and the original poster disappeared shortly after Darktentacles). Still, lots of potential to be found in MMII, such as the Stained Glass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13577822&postcount=498) (listed CR 5, calculated CR 9 due to DR 10/Adamantium, Fast Healing 5, a boatload of health, and a ludicrous bonus to hide), Bone Naga (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10652857&postcount=99) (listed CR 11, calculated CR 16 due to 14th level sorcerer casting, d12 HD, and BAB/save progression as sorc.), and the Dire Elephant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379509&postcount=423) (listed CR 10, calculated CR 17). That's not counting the Clockwork Horrors mentioned earlier.

[lunar2]

What makes the Greater Barghest noteworthy?

it's just straight up under CR'ed. it's a brute on par with CR 7's with a handful of SLAs besides. this is, of course, the properly advanced one. the printed one (again, errors were made in the size change and hd increase from barghest) is a
CR 6 equivalent brute with a handful of SLAs.

[Tve]

Seeing that you've included the CR27 dragon, you might throw Demi Lich onto the list at CR29.

Between their AC 51, undead immunities, DR 30/-, turn resistance 20, complete immunity to magic, soul trapping and paralyzing touch AND it's epic level arcane casting?
..auch!

[Isamu Dyson]

Seeing that you've included the CR27 dragon, you might throw Demi Lich onto the list at CR29.

Between their AC 51, undead immunities, DR 30/-, turn resistance 20, complete immunity to magic, soul trapping and paralyzing touch AND it's epic level arcane casting?
..auch!

Unfortunately, there aren't too many CR 29 monsters to compare the Demilich to :smallsigh:.

[Silva Stormrage]

For CR 12 I vote for the Ulitharid from Lords of Madness. A CR 12 that manifests as a level 13 psion with good stats, ludicrous SR, amazing stun attack and the ability to instantly kill in a grapple (It only has +16 but still that can kill an unprepared rogue or wizard rapidly)

It might not be up there with the adamantine horror but its pretty dangerous.

[Ksheep]

For CR 7, might I suggest Arrow Demon (MMIII)? Supposedly made as a ranged attacker, can dual-wield oversized bows, Dimension Door at will, resistance 10 to Acid, Fire, and Cold, Immunity to Electricity and Poison, SR 18, high STR, DEX, and CON (which means he could be just as punishing, if not more so, in melee), fairly high HP (more than a comparable level barbarian with maxed-out HD rolls and 24 CON), and he has a 35% chance of summoning ANOTHER Arrow Demon once a day.

Edit: Oh, and DR 5/Cold Iron AND Good. And doesn't provoke AoOs while firing a bow when threatened. Probably a few other points as well.

[Silva Stormrage]

For CR 7, might I suggest Arrow Demon (MMIII)? Supposedly made as a ranged attacker, can dual-wield oversized bows, Dimension Door at will, resistance 10 to Acid, Fire, and Cold, Immunity to Electricity and Poison, SR 18, high STR, DEX, and CON (which means he could be just as punishing, if not more so, in melee), fairly high HP (more than a comparable level barbarian with maxed-out HD rolls and 24 CON), and he has a 35% chance of summoning ANOTHER Arrow Demon once a day.

I am going to counter with my own cr 7 monstrosity. The Bleakborn from Libris Mortis.

A cr 7 with only 52 hit points it seems frail, until you look at its stats. It has a 27 ac which means if you throw on non magical chain shirt fighters need about a 20 to hit. It looks like a frozen zombie so you would think to use fire. Nope! Fire heals it! It heals on its attacks, it heals whenever someone is within range (30ft) of it and takes damage from its heat sucking aura. And most importantly IT CAN'T DIE! Ever. If you kill it and stay within it's aura long enough (or any creature wanders in) it will eventually heal to full health again. It may not be the most dangerous if you know what your up against, but it can be surprising and very lethal.

For CR 10 I vote for the greater storm elemental. Once per minute it can deal 36d6 damage to creatures in a large aoe. Then as a free action each round it can deal 12d4 damage to a creature that fails a dc 28 fort save. Ya that will one turn kill many level 10 parties.

[Angelalex242]

A Solar is the toughest customer around at its CR 23.

An Ancient Red Dragon is also CR 23. Put it against a Solar, and the Dragon's screwed. The Great Wyrm version is CR 26, and I'd still bet on the Solar. And it's not even immune to the Dragon's breath weapon.

[TiaC]

At CR 1, nothing beats the Petitioner template from MotP. It strips Sp and Su abilities, Skills, Feats, and sets HD to two. However, everything else is retained, including bonus hit points calculated using the monster's original HD.

At CR 4, the Malaugrym from Monsters of Faerun is a strong contender. It's nothing special, except that it's change shape ability is called out as functioning like CL 20 Shapechange. The same book has the Cloaker Lord, CR 7, Casts as a Wizard 9, Good melee stats and a free action AoE SoL.

[Devronq]

Ok this is an underpowerful one not an overpowerful. The ocean strider from the MM2 p.164. Hes a CR.18 and nothing all that great about him but the biggest offence he has an EL of +35, yes plus friggan 35 for a CR.18 monster with 30HD and really nothing great going for him.

[Yora]

EL? For a single creature, EL equals CR.

And speaking of allips, how do shadows compare? Also incorporeal at CR 3, 1d6 Str damage, and turn enemies at Str 0 into spawn. That an allip does Wis drain instead of damage doesn't matter if you don't survive the encounter. The only real advantage it seems to have is babble, which makes a bad situation worse, but incorporeality seems to be the real issue.

[Sith_Happens]

At CR 4, the Malaugrym from Monsters of Faerun is a strong contender. It's nothing special, except that it's change shape ability is called out as functioning like CL 20 Shapechange.

"Strong contender?" It can become almost anything else in this thread and gain the best abilities of at least half of them. It wins.

[Brookshw]

Cr 1: iirc honorable mentions to stag beetle, something like 4d4+x (i forget) damage, easy 1 shot on a level 1 (not that one shotting a level 1 says much). The iron defender from Eberron is cr I believe, good ac, HP, construct. I seem to recall a single one almost tpk'd a level 1 party.

Cr 25: I'd nominate the phane, decent sr, HP, SC, various defenses, can clone a party member to fight for it, borrow itself from another round, nice edge regarding action economy. Worst case scenario, it time stops, spends 4 standard actions and messes with time.

[Vedhin]

"Strong contender?" It can become almost anything else in this thread and gain the best abilities of at least half of them. It wins.

I do believe that it was changed in some sort of errata/update.

[Eldariel]

EL? For a single creature, EL equals CR.

And speaking of allips, how do shadows compare? Also incorporeal at CR 3, 1d6 Str damage, and turn enemies at Str 0 into spawn. That an allip does Wis drain instead of damage doesn't matter if you don't survive the encounter. The only real advantage it seems to have is babble, which makes a bad situation worse, but incorporeality seems to be the real issue.

Babble is pretty huge (DC 16 save is pretty tough on these levels), but Allips are also numerically better. They have better initiative. It also has extra HD (tougher to turn, tougher in general), 2 points higher AC, and gets Temp. HP every time it hits somebody.

Shadow is bad but thanks to lower AC, less HP, no Temp. HP and Babble, a warrior whose weapon was Magic Weaponed might be able to smash him it. Allip is just significantly harder to deal with in this manner. Same with various types of energy missile spam; Allip's Temp. HP make it really hard to take down in this manner.

[Incanur]

Yeah, a shadow is already a tough CR 3 encounter, while the allip makes it worse in almost every way as described. Used intelligently, incorporeality means the shadow/allip always gets a surprise round at these levels. Create spawn is the one thing shadows have going for them - and it's huge. Against your advantage four-PC party, create spawn means losing one character can quickly lead to a TPK. But create spawn matters most when applied to the world at large. Imagine a shadow in a hamlet or goblin den: you get an exponentially growing army of shadows. Without magic, low-level humanoids can do nothing to a shadow explosion. A shadow plague can happen so fast that it's difficult to figure out why cities still exist - the replication rate is about a minute! There must be groups of adventures constantly on the lookout for shadows near large clusters of humanoids.

[Angelalex242]

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of PC?

The Shadows do... :smallamused:

Also, ask yourself, how many clerics and wizards actually prepare the magic weapon spell? I've never done it. More likely, the poor cleric will have to convert his spell to spontaneous cure light wounds and hope to kill him with positive energy.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, a shadow is already a tough CR 3 encounter, while the allip makes it worse in almost every way as described. Used intelligently, incorporeality means the shadow/allip always gets a surprise round at these levels. Create spawn is the one thing shadows have going for them - and it's huge. Against your advantage four-PC party, create spawn means losing one character can quickly lead to a TPK. But create spawn matters most when applied to the world at large. Imagine a shadow in a hamlet or goblin den: you get an exponentially growing army of shadows. Without magic, low-level humanoids can do nothing to a shadow explosion. A shadow plague can happen so fast that it's difficult to figure out why cities still exist - the replication rate is about a minute! There must be groups of adventures constantly on the lookout for shadows near large clusters of humanoids.

I'm guessing the Order of Pelor has many Clerics indeed roaming the world for the sole purpose of annihilating Shadows.


Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of PC?

The Shadows do... :smallamused:

Also, ask yourself, how many clerics and wizards actually prepare the magic weapon spell? I've never done it. More likely, the poor cleric will have to convert his spell to spontaneous cure light wounds and hope to kill him with positive energy.

You scroll it. Well, I always scroll it twice or thrice. Why? Well, see above. Besides, the scroll costs 25gp, it's well worth the trouble.

[Incanur]

As far as the drowned go, they're listed at CR 9 in the MMIII entry itself. I'm not so sure they're as bad as claimed - though certainly still a tough encounter. A drown has 150hp and 19 AC. The drowning aura is brutal, but has a less than 50% chance of dropping a character the first round. Ye old pouncing barbarian would end the encounter immediate around half the time. While fast healing 5 is problem, a drowned has only basic mobility and no ranged attacks, so in a reasonably open environment it won't necessarily ever get close enough for the aura to check in.

[Angelalex242]

I'll have to make a note of that. Because...I dunno about you guys, but my group never ever had a magic weapon spell scroll or prepared. Ever.

[Incanur]

As a DM, I don't think I'd ever throw a shadow at 3rd-level party. I threw greater shadows at a party around level 10 or so one time, and two of them died. If it takes you by surprise, ability damage remains a threat into the higher levels - and shadows almost always take you by surprise.

[LordHenry]

A Thrym Hound (CR 10) from MM V is pretty nasty: Especially for melee heavy parties his 39 AC and his counterstrike ability can be devstating. On top of that, he has good saves, a breath weapon, a quickened spell like ability and 175 HP.

[Eldariel]

I'll have to make a note of that. Because...I dunno about you guys, but my group never ever had a magic weapon spell scroll or prepared. Ever.

It's one of those things you learn from experience. It's not only incorporeals, DR/Magic enemies are fairly common and a huge pain in the butt unless you have Magic Weapon available. As a bonus it improves you offensively too.

Same applies to keeping tools for overcoming various type- and material-based DRs handy (spells for alignment-based), having those huge specialist spells (e.g. Wind Wall or Command Undead) when it counts and such.


As a DM, I don't think I'd ever throw a shadow at 3rd-level party. I threw greater shadows at a party around level 10 or so one time, and two of them died. If it takes you by surprise, ability damage remains a threat into the higher levels - and shadows almost always take you by surprise.

Honestly, the biggest problem with Shadows is that short of Mindsight-level abilities they're almost impossible to detect. Incorporeals make no sound and can move through walls. If attacking from inside a wall, they can make use of greater cover, surprise and if enemy shows the capability to fight back, just escape through the walls (best part is, per encounter abilities like Rage and Magic Weapon expire fairly shortly and if it comes back 10 mins later or something it might find a much weaker party to deal with).

Actually locating and taking out incorporeals is next to impossible for lower level parties. If you don't have some custom spells or splats, it's not easy even higher up (Ghost Trap is the best option but that's a level 6/7 spell). Core doesn't provide a whole lot of means for actually finding and chasing them. Force walls can trap them so you can use Forcecage but you need to get them out from the damn wall first. A high-level caster can Disintegrate the Wall and then trap or destroy them but actually finding them short of Mindsight is still hard (stuff like Detect Undead is 1 min/level and not all Incorporeals are undead in any case, and Detect Evil has some similar problems; plus neither pinpoints enemies inside walls, just gives you a direction, and both need multiple rounds).

[TiaC]

I do believe that it was changed in some sort of errata/update.

The update just changed it from Alternate Form to Change Shape, actually making it more powerful.

[Devronq]

EL? For a single creature, EL equals CR.

And speaking of allips, how do shadows compare? Also incorporeal at CR 3, 1d6 Str damage, and turn enemies at Str 0 into spawn. That an allip does Wis drain instead of damage doesn't matter if you don't survive the encounter. The only real advantage it seems to have is babble, which makes a bad situation worse, but incorporeality seems to be the real issue.

Was the EL comment directed at me? I wasn't clear what you mean by saying this.

[supervillan]

I second Bone Naga. It's like a lich in many ways yet somehow has a lower CR than its casting ability. Why are there so many monsters with lower CR than their full-caster ability? Drop the bone naga sorcerer ability to level 7 or maybe 9 and you're closer to the printed CR.

[Yora]

Was the EL comment directed at me? I wasn't clear what you mean by saying this.

You said it has an EL of +35. EL is the combined CR for groups of creatures. It's a number, not a modifier.

[supervillan]

You said it has an EL of +35. EL is the combined CR for groups of creatures. It's a number, not a modifier.

The ocean strider has an ECL of 35 plus character levels. It's a CR 18 which seems ok to me given its HD, defences and spell like abilities.

[EyethatBinds]

CR 8 should consider replacing the Drowned with the Vile Wight. The Vile Wight does 2 negative levels per attack and has at least four natural attacks, meaning a lucky ambush and a good initiative roll can drain one person from full to dead in a round.

Also, can do an 8d8 line of negative energy to eliminate the spellcaster before he can do much good.

[Chronos]

Another contender for CR 1: Kobolds with NPC classes have a CR equal to their level minus 3. Which means that a kobold adept 4 is only CR 1. Give it a Wis of at least 14 (13 from the standard array plus 1 from leveling), and that means that it can lead off with a Web, and maybe follow up with a Burning Hands. The racial bonus to Dex and small size mean that it's likely to win initiative or even a surprise round, meaning the party never has a chance to do anything to stop this.

All of this is just core, but of course it gets even worse if you're using the RotD buffs to kobolds.

[Isamu Dyson]

CR 8 should consider replacing the Drowned with the Vile Wight. The Vile Wight does 2 negative levels per attack and has at least four natural attacks, meaning a lucky ambush and a good initiative roll can drain one person from full to dead in a round.

Also, can do an 8d8 line of negative energy to eliminate the spellcaster before he can do much good.

Which supplement contains the Vile Wight?

[hamishspence]

That would be BoVD.

[Silva Stormrage]

Was there any reason the greater storm elemental and its potential 36d6+12d4 damage in a single round isn't placed in the CR 10 spot?

[Isamu Dyson]

Was there any reason the greater storm elemental and its potential 36d6+12d4 damage in a single round isn't placed in the CR 10 spot?

I simply haven't gotten around to this yet :smalltongue:.

[Angelalex242]

Still no love for the Solar? Seriously now, guys...

[Zanos]

Still no love for the Solar? Seriously now, guys...
Everything breaks after level 20. I see a solar at CR 23, and all I see is that it doesn't have Epic Spellcasting.

[Silva Stormrage]

I simply haven't gotten around to this yet :smalltongue:.

Ah fair enough, you added the bleakborn to it which was in the same post so I was just wondering if it didn't quite count as unbalanced enough :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

The ocean strider has an ECL of 35 plus character levels. It's a CR 18 which seems ok to me given its HD, defences and spell like abilities.
ECL stands for effective character level. It's how they tried to explain the level of a creature for PC use before they came up with level adjustment. ECL 35 on 18 hd means +17 LA. A lot of early creatures have unfairly inflated LA.

Everything breaks after level 20. I see a solar at CR 23, and I'll I see is that it doesn't have Epic Spellcasting. I would put the cut-off at 24 for that. Party level plus 4 is a boss fight and level 20 PC's will get demolished by epic magic.

Not that I ever include epic anything in my own games, I put a hard cut-off at level 17 then incorporate the e6 feat thing. Though I also tend to bring campaigns to a close not long after hitting 17 anyway.

[Angelalex242]

Great Wyrm Red Dragon doesn't have epic spellcasting either, and it's CR 26.

Can a Solar take a Great Wyrm Red?

Yes. Definitively yes. It's got better spells.

Ya know what else is CR 26? An Infernal.

And Infernals>>>>>>Great Wyrm Red Dragon

Infernals do have an epic spell by the way, though it's only Hellball. And I still think a Solar could take an Infernal.

[Lanaya]

Not that I ever include epic anything in my own games, I put a hard cut-off at level 17 then incorporate the e6 feat thing. Though I also tend to bring campaigns to a close not long after hitting 17 anyway.

Do you boost sorcerer spell progression to compensate, or are they stuck with level 8 spells at maximum?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Do you boost sorcerer spell progression to compensate, or are they stuck with level 8 spells at maximum?

I don't change it. The wizards might get to cast between 4 and a dozen 9th level spells before the campaign wraps and there are so many builds that lose at least one level of casting that even that is rare. The balance issue also doesn't really matter unless you have a wizard and a sorcerer in the same party, also a rarity.

[Isamu Dyson]

C'mon folks: we still have a ways to go :smallcool:.

[Heliomance]

Stormwrack.

Guide to the annoying, semi-common alternate names along this line:

It's Cold Outside=Frostburn
It's Hot Outside=Sandstorm
It's Wet Outside=Stormwrack

And occasionally:
It's Croweded Outside=Cityscape
It's Not Outside=Dungeonscape


I've also heard:

It's Not Outside = Cityscape
It's Dark Down Here/Damn, Is It Dark Down Here = Dungeonscape

[Blackhawk748]

Not sure if they have been mentioned, but the Basilisk Cr5 and the Cockatrice Cr3. The save DCs may be low, but there is still an almost 25% chance of a character dying (not actual death but it may as well be) the Cockatrice isnt as bad as it can only do it to one person at a time, but even so it seems a bit unreasonable. The Basilisk is even worse as it can make the whole party do the save every freakin round. friggin gaze attacks

[GoatBoy]

Stormwrack.
It's Cold Outside=Frostburn
It's Hot Outside=Sandstorm
It's Wet Outside=Stormwrack

And occasionally:
It's Croweded Outside=Cityscape
It's Not Outside=Dungeonscape


You're a Wizard, Harry - Complete Arcane
You're a Fighter, Harry - Complete Warrior
You're a Rogue, Harry - Complete Adventurer
You're a Cleric, Harry - Complete Divine
You're Hairy, Harry - Savage Species

[Rubik]

Do the titanic template and warbeast template together count? Combining the two means you can afford an epic pet at an absurdly low level, considering how cheap titanic warbeasts are.

[Heliomance]

You're a Wizard, Harry - Complete Arcane
You're a Fighter, Harry - Complete Warrior
You're a Rogue, Harry - Complete Adventurer Complete Scoundrel
You're a Cleric, Harry - Complete Divine
You're Hairy, Harry - Savage Species

Fixed that for you

[sideswipe]

am I the only one who thinks hydra's are horrible. my group is relatively low OP. i'm the most optimised. and we always seem to have problems with hydra's, never defeated one.

[Blackhawk748]

am I the only one who thinks hydra's are horrible. my group is relatively low OP. i'm the most optimised. and we always seem to have problems with hydra's, never defeated one.

Your not alone, Hydras are nuts, and they kinda break the action economy, in a lite fashion though. The Cryo and pyro versions are freakin nuts though.

[sideswipe]

Your not alone, Hydras are nuts, and they kinda break the action economy, in a lite fashion though. The Cryo and pyro versions are freakin nuts though.

yay i'm not crazy.

[Rubik]

yay i'm not crazy.No, you are. You just also happen to be right. :smallbiggrin:

[sideswipe]

No, you are. You just also happen to be right. :smallbiggrin:

"I'm not crazy, your crazy, especially you Napa".
Major brownie points if you get the reference.


5/10 headed terror from MM 3 is pretty horrifying.
I shriek, the party falls paralysed.
I then touch you 5/10 times, make that many fortitude saves, fail 1 and you will die. nothing stopping it.

also its attacks cause a fortitude save that if you fail the damage cannot be healed by mundane or magical means. its a poison, and you need to remove the poison before you can heal.

CR 10 or 13 depending on heads.

[Rubik]

How about the MM's roper? 6 ranged touch attacks, make a Fort save or take 2d8 Str damage, which alone is enough to put almost anyone under, if it rolls high, crits, hits more than once, or hits someone with already low Str.

[Urpriest]

If we can include a couple templated creatures on the list, an Ogre Were-Battletitan is CR 9 and has 40 HD.

Also, in line of the various alternate book names, That's So Ravenloft for Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

[sideswipe]

Oh... and I just remembered the bane of any melee fighter ever under level 5...
Rust monster. CR 3.
It touches you and your everything disintegrates if it fails a fortitude save.
You attack it with anything metallic and it disintegrates instantly.

[Blackhawk748]

Which is why i always had a club, its free and is a crappy back up.

[Rubik]

Which is why i always had a club, its free and is a crappy back up.The one time I went against rust monsters (as a thri-kreen psychic warrior), I'd just been blinded, and the party had left me behind because of it, so I got to take on quite a few (around a dozen, IIRC) all by myself. Lucky me, I already had a bow with the seeking property, so all I had to do was to fire into as many squares as I could, and trust the seeking property to do the rest. I managed to kill them all within two turns, but sadly, I lost my mithral chain shirt. It only had a +1 on it, but that's still more money than I wanted to lose.

[Isamu Dyson]

How do you mitigate the hydra's relatively slow land speed when sending it against PCs?


How about the MM's roper? 6 ranged touch attacks, make a Fort save or take 2d8 Str damage, which alone is enough to put almost anyone under, if it rolls high, crits, hits more than once, or hits someone with already low Str.

By Level 12, don't most PCs have methods for sensing this beastie before it can enact a scene out of a bad Japanese anime?

[Blackhawk748]

Have them be in a cave and it moves in from of the entrance, also it has sick reach

[sideswipe]

Have them be in a cave and it moves in from of the entrance, also it has sick reach

yeah then they have the choice of fight the hydra... or get crushed by the cave whales....

[Silva Stormrage]

Not sure if they have been mentioned, but the Basilisk Cr5 and the Cockatrice Cr3. The save DCs may be low, but there is still an almost 25% chance of a character dying (not actual death but it may as well be) the Cockatrice isnt as bad as it can only do it to one person at a time, but even so it seems a bit unreasonable. The Basilisk is even worse as it can make the whole party do the save every freakin round. friggin gaze attacks

My party just lost 3/4 of the group to a basilisk first round. The one surviving member has blindsight so he was immune…

Not QUITE as bad as the ephermal swarm though but its pretty bad.

[Snowbluff]

I needed this list for my Terrible Campaign. Thank you.

[Isamu Dyson]

For the CR 20 spot, i'm considering both the Balor and Pit Fiend. Which is the bigger threat, and why?

[molten_dragon]

I'll add a couple to the list.

Cockatrice at CR3. A CR 3 creature should not be able to inflict a status it takes a 6th level spell to cure.

Trumpet Archons at CR 14. Level 14 cleric casting alone would put them at CR 14, but they also have a ton of outsider goodies.

Ghaele Eladrin at CR 13. Same reasons as above.

[Isamu Dyson]

Ah, so that is why good usually triumphs over evil: it's overpowered :smallbiggrin:.

[Chronos]

Well, there really aren't all that many CR 20 monsters out there, so a Balor or Pit Fiend might plausibly be the most powerful... but neither one is really all that unbalanced. They're about at what a CR 20 ought to be.

It's more likely to be some dragon or another, though. Or, of course, just a humanoid with 20 levels in a casting class.

[molten_dragon]

Ah, so that is why good usually triumphs over evil: it's overpowered :smallbiggrin:.

Yeah, quite a few of the various celestials are pretty overpowered for their CR. Not that fiends are really much better. Outsiders in general tend to be relatively dangerous for their CR, due to outsider HD being some of the best monster HD in the game (alongside dragon). Also outsiders tend to have a lot of immunities and SLAs.

Oh, another one to add. The Fiendworm from MM2. Has a CR in the mid 20s IIRC and can be beaten pretty easily by parties in their low teens.

[Chronos]

Heck, that's nothing. Flux Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/obstacles.htm#fluxSlime) is CR 21, and a level 1 commoner with a torch will have a 100% victory rate against it.

That's assuming, of course, that we're considering things that are unbalanced by being too weak as well as too strong.

[lunar2]

"I'm not crazy, your crazy, especially you Napa".
Major brownie points if you get the reference.


5/10 headed terror from MM 3 is pretty horrifying.
I shriek, the party falls paralysed.
I then touch you 5/10 times, make that many fortitude saves, fail 1 and you will die. nothing stopping it.

also its attacks cause a fortitude save that if you fail the damage cannot be healed by mundane or magical means. its a poison, and you need to remove the poison before you can heal.

CR 10 or 13 depending on heads.

are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no.

[Coy]

For CR 12, I have always had trouble justifying the use of a War Troll. Though there might be more borked stuff out there.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=6

Its just always been reliably deadly.

[Rubik]

CR 1: Pun-Pun.

[Draken]

Heck, that's nothing. Flux Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/obstacles.htm#fluxSlime) is CR 21, and a level 1 commoner with a torch will have a 100% victory rate against it.

That's assuming, of course, that we're considering things that are unbalanced by being too weak as well as too strong.

Destroying the Flux Slime is pretty much what triggers the real threat of the thing, creating a random SoS, SoL or SoD effect, or a pretty cool benefit. Sometimes you are the level 1 peasant with a torch that rolls permanent iron body, after all.

[Sith_Happens]

Not sure if they have been mentioned, but the Basilisk Cr5 and the Cockatrice Cr3. The save DCs may be low, but there is still an almost 25% chance of a character dying (not actual death but it may as well be) the Cockatrice isnt as bad as it can only do it to one person at a time, but even so it seems a bit unreasonable. The Basilisk is even worse as it can make the whole party do the save every freakin round. friggin gaze attacks

Here's the trick with the basilisk: Take a look at the rest of its stats. If an ECL 5 party can't beat that with their eyes closed, they should probably be considering a different career.


That's So Ravenloft for Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.

You win.:smalltongue:

[3WhiteFox3]

I'd like to offer up the Unbodied for consideration for CR 5 most powerful monster.

Why?


Incorporeal
Telepathy (thus elegible for mindsight)
Assume Likeness (pose as a harmless NPC)
30' Flight
High Bluff and Disguise skill modifiers
4th level racial manifesting as a Psion (Telepath) that stacks with levels in Telepath. This is the biggie since it gives it access to the very excellent Psion power list.


It's not as nasty in a straight up fight as the hydra or ephemeral swarm, but it's infiltration capabilities, powerful racial traits including racial manifesting can make it a deadly foe at 5th level.

[Rubik]

With LA buyoff, you can have a level 3 character with an additional 5 levels in the ghost savage progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) at ECL 3, since you can buy the levels off as you go, and you only ever have 1 LA (for your current non-bought-off ghost level).

[Isamu Dyson]

I'd like to offer up the Unbodied for consideration for CR 5 most powerful monster.

Why?


Incorporeal
Telepathy (thus elegible for mindsight)
Assume Likeness (pose as a harmless NPC)
30' Flight
High Bluff and Disguise skill modifiers
4th level racial manifesting as a Psion (Telepath) that stacks with levels in Telepath. This is the biggie since it gives it access to the very excellent Psion power list.


It's not as nasty in a straight up fight as the hydra or ephemeral swarm, but it's infiltration capabilities, powerful racial traits including racial manifesting can make it a deadly foe at 5th level.

Which book is this being in?

[TypoNinja]

Fiendish Trolls are shockingly hard to kill for their CR.

Will o Wisp is my contribution for CR6 though. These things kill parties.

Immune to anything that allows SR, 29AC, 29 Touch AC, +16 touch attack for 2d8 electricity, faster than you (50ft fly), and Chaotic Evil, so it will chase you down. Oh and Invisibilty at will, and more than enough Int to know how to use it well.

Sadly enough grappling is the best option, its got a -3 to that. Except hugging the thing made out of lighting is a dubious choice at best. Black Tentacles would be ideal here, except at a cr6 you don't have 4th level magic yet.

Magic missile does work on it, hope you packed a wand though, its got 40HP to burn through.

[Rubik]

Which book is this being in?Expanded Psionics Handbook (or SRD).

[Isamu Dyson]

Will o Wisp is my contribution for CR6 though. These things kill parties.

Immune to anything that allows SR, 29AC, 29 Touch AC, +16 touch attack for 2d8 electricity, faster than you (50ft fly), and Chaotic Evil, so it will chase you down. Oh and Invisibilty at will, and more than enough Int to know how to use it well.

Sadly enough grappling is the best option, its got a -3 to that. Except hugging the thing made out of lighting is a dubious choice at best. Black Tentacles would be ideal here, except at a cr6 you don't have 4th level magic yet.

Magic missile does work on it, hope you packed a wand though, its got 40HP to burn through.

Finally! We've lacked a decent CR6 contender for quite a while.

[Eldariel]

Sadly enough grappling is the best option, its got a -3 to that. Except hugging the thing made out of lighting is a dubious choice at best. Black Tentacles would be ideal here, except at a cr6 you don't have 4th level magic yet.

Traditional Grappling is pretty bad vs. something with Touch AC 29 and Invisibility (50% Concealment even if you know where it is) unless you're packing True Strike.

Probably your best bet is an arcane Gish of some sort, using See Invisibility and True Strike to negate its defenses and beating it silly; it doesn't kill very fast so you've got time. Of course, it can just escape quite effortlessly unless you manage to one-shot it. An arcanist with some Strength could try to Grapple it with True Strike, which could indeed work..

It's worth noting that it's quite easy to negate its offense with Resist Energy: Electricity tho - this makes grappling an option even for people without Improved Grapple. On average it'll do no damage to a warded subject. Even with full damage, it only hits for 9 on average so killing someone takes a long time.

[avr]

On the subject of templates, lycanthrope gives +3 CR for a 3 to 5 HD animal. Like, say, a fleshraker. I think this makes a Kobold Werefleshraker Adept 1 a total of CR 1; with all the goodies of a normal fleshraker plus DR/silver, an additional +5 to the will save and a dash of spellcasting.

[TypoNinja]

Traditional Grappling is pretty bad vs. something with Touch AC 29 and Invisibility (50% Concealment even if you know where it is) unless you're packing True Strike.

Hence why Black Tentacles is ideal. They don't make the the touch attack, they auto grapple anything in their area, and are immune to damage.

Makes Will o Wisps kinda strange, they are murderous to a 6th level party, but at 7th level your wizard can take out a whole room full with one spell.

[Eldariel]

Hence why Black Tentacles is ideal. They don't make the the touch attack, they auto grapple anything in their area, and are immune to damage.

Makes Will o Wisps kinda strange, they are murderous to a 6th level party, but at 7th level your wizard can take out a whole room full with one spell.

Well, "murderous" might be overstating it. They honestly kinda have this Monk-thing going on for them - hard to kill, sure, but 2d8 damage takes a long time to add up and it's all they do. Then there's the fact that their only attack is electrical damage, which can be warded against (though granted, Resist Energy is by default single-targeted).

Really annoying and yeah, there are certainly lots of parties that just can't touch 'em (even raging Orc Barbarian with a masterwork weapon attacking in melee or with thrown weapons+Brutal Throw under See Invisibility is only looking at 6+7+2+1 = +16 to hit).

[sideswipe]

are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no. are we there yet? no.

lunar2 well done, all the brownie points

[Socksy]

For CR 7, might I suggest Arrow Demon (MMIII)? Supposedly made as a ranged attacker, can dual-wield oversized bows, Dimension Door at will, resistance 10 to Acid, Fire, and Cold, Immunity to Electricity and Poison, SR 18, high STR, DEX, and CON (which means he could be just as punishing, if not more so, in melee), fairly high HP (more than a comparable level barbarian with maxed-out HD rolls and 24 CON), and he has a 35% chance of summoning ANOTHER Arrow Demon once a day.

Edit: Oh, and DR 5/Cold Iron AND Good. And doesn't provoke AoOs while firing a bow when threatened. Probably a few other points as well.

Wiped out a level 10 party with one once.

[Phaederkiel]

oh, and the sharn seems to be good for cr 8:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5481.msg81573#msg81573


I think the sharn is still far worse than the drowned. It should at least get a mention. And no love for the murderjacks?

[sideswipe]

for CR 19 - MOLYDEUS - fiendish codex 1

immune electric and poison
resist 10 fire, cold, acid
nothing special.

spell resistance 30. ok
true seeing. ok
a free action attack doing con damage. ok
essentially ignoring damage reduction on all attacks but the first. ok

AT WILL spell like abilities - baleful polymorph, blasphamy, greater dispel magic (and some other ones)
1/day - trap the soul.

and a whole bunch of other goodies

[PurpleSocks]

CR3: Legion Devils FCII.

They are fairly balanced on their own but for each additional legion devil within 60ft they get exponentially more powerful. Each additional Legion Devil provides all other devils withing 60ft an untyped +4 to hit which explicitly stacks with itself. They have evasion and share saves, so if one of them is the is the target of a save spell they all make a save and if one of them makes it they all do. They also share a hp pool which allows them to really abuse feats that grant limited healing as a swift Mark of Malbolge.

6 legion devils is a CR 8 encounter.
They provide each other with a untyped +20 to hit on top of their BAB+Str,
If you give them Brand of the nine hells and mark of malbodge then for a swift action they effectively gain fast healing 18 + 12d6 + 18 per round in exchange for their swift actions for up to 10 rounds.
In addition to the standard devil immunities, they make each save up to 6 times requiring only one success and have a move action teleport to be adjacent to any other legion devil within 100ft.

[Socksy]

How about an Omnimental for CR15? They're okay if you know what to do with them- lots of cold damage- but immune to fire and electricity, can swim 50ft and fly 50ft(perfectly, even though they're Gargantuan), have 32HD, DR 10/-, 432 hp, elemental traits (fairly sure that means no crits or sneak attacks), a +32 to hit and 2 attacks at 5d8+12 each, enough to insta-kill a level 15 wizard or psion and force saves vs. massive damage.

And to top it off, what happens when you finally defeat it?
It violently explodes, and splits into four shiny new 16HD elementals.
Which the MMIII specifically states you gain no XP for.

[bekeleven]

2 attacks at 5d8+12 each, enough to insta-kill a level 15 wizard or psion

So assuming your wizards are rushing into melee range with no miss chances, that 69 damage isn't enough to kill one unless his con bonus is +1 or lower and he has no additional sources of HP (ex. heart of earth). And no immediate action spells. And no contingencies.

[Socksy]

So assuming your wizards are rushing into melee range with no miss chances, that 69 damage isn't enough to kill one unless his con bonus is +1 or lower and he has no additional sources of HP (ex. heart of earth). And no immediate action spells. And no contingencies.

Is contingency in 3.5e? Never seen it... Never seen an immediate action spell either. Reference? C:
And it gets a 20ft reach and 50ft movement, it could just charge the caster. It also has ranged attacks almost as horrible for its enemies.

[Phaederkiel]

Is contingency in 3.5e? Never seen it... Never seen an immediate action spell either. Reference? C:
And it gets a 20ft reach and 50ft movement, it could just charge the caster. It also has ranged attacks almost as horrible for its enemies.

you, sir, are quite obviously trolling. C:

[Socksy]

you, sir, are quite obviously trolling. C:

I'm not. I genuinely haven't encountered them before, so I want to look them up.

[Urpriest]

I'm not. I genuinely haven't encountered them before, so I want to look them up.

Contingency is right there in the core book, in the spells section, under C.

[137beth]

I'm not. I genuinely haven't encountered them before, so I want to look them up.

Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)
Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm)

And then Complete Arcane has a more powerful contingent spell in the form of a feat called "craft contingent spell". (complete arcane, pg 77).

EDIT: partial swordsaged.

[Socksy]

Thank you! C:
Sorry for the bother, I'm not the best at understanding things. I thought Quicken Spell made it into a free action :smalltongue:

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think the sharn is still far worse than the drowned. It should at least get a mention. And no love for the murderjacks?

I will agree with Phae on Sharn. Insane action economy, massive number of spells, and a variety of lists while having tricky to bypass dr and regen, and can fly at 40 perfect.

[Phaederkiel]

quicken, it should be noted, does not make a spell an immedieate. But featherfall is a good example, because it is core and probably the ancestor of the immedieate action.

[Socksy]

quicken, it should be noted, does not make a spell an immedieate. But featherfall is a good example, because it is core and probably the ancestor of the immedieate action.

this is all so confusing
Do you mean like spells which can activate at any time if cast earlier, or spells from items?
Because I thought you meant a spell which could be cast instantly, even if it wasn't your turn.
Soorrryyyyy. :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

this is all so confusing
Do you mean like spells which can activate at any time if cast earlier, or spells from items?
Because I thought you meant a spell which could be cast instantly, even if it wasn't your turn.
Soorrryyyyy. :smallfrown:

The difference here is between terms "Swift Action" and "Immediate Action" (though this classification doesn't exist in Core hence why Quicken Spell mentions "Free Action once per turn" even though it's an archetypal Swift Action). Swift Action doesn't take much time; you can take one Swift Action each turn, but you may take it in addition to all your normal Full-Round Action. This could e.g. be a Quickened spell.

Then, outside your turn you may only take Immediate Actions (or Free Actions that explicitly can be taken out of Turn Order, such as talking). If you use an Immediate Action, it expends your Swift Action for your next turn. Featherfall is the archetype of this, though it's not called an Immediate Action spell in PHB (since Immediate Actions didn't exist back then). PHBII's Greater Mirror Image and Celerity are more typical examples. Spell Compendium has Nerveskitter among other things.


In Core, the "Contingency"-spell is really the only way to act out of turn order. It can be tied to e.g. mouthing a specific word you'd normally never use (as mentioned, speaking is a free action that can be taken out of turn order - mouthing is possible even under Silence). This way you effectively have Contingency that can be used at any time desired.

[Isamu Dyson]

There is a serious dearth of aquatic monsters mentioned in this thread :smallsigh:.

[Kazyan]

If the Runehound is bad, wait until you see what happens when you apply the Multi-Headed template. It's just brutal.

[TypoNinja]

There is a serious dearth of aquatic monsters mentioned in this thread :smallsigh:.

Because most of them are not very threatening unless you are stuck in the water with them. I've learned this in a high seas based campaign. Some of the aquatic critters are quite mean. Unless you are standing on the deck of a ship, and can just ignore them or sail away faster than they move.

[atomicwaffle]

Earth Elementals.

Seriously, screw those guys.

[Isamu Dyson]

Because most of them are not very threatening unless you are stuck in the water with them. I've learned this in a high seas based campaign. Some of the aquatic critters are quite mean. Unless you are standing on the deck of a ship, and can just ignore them or sail away faster than they move.

Even so, within their watery domain, some foes are more challenging than others also sitting at the same CR.


Earth Elementals.

Seriously, screw those guys.

Aren't most creatures that more-or-less rely on pure brawn usually underpowered for their CR?

[3WhiteFox3]

Even so, within their watery domain, some foes are more challenging than others at the same CR.



Aren't most creatures that more-or-less rely on pure brawn usually underpowered for their CR?

This is typically true, however, the earth elementals are surprisingly good for a brawny monster. They are especially tough, pack a serious punch and are completely relentless. The best part is definitely earth glide, given the right terrain they can sail completely unhindered through cover, and they can make astonishingly good ambush monsters by hiding underground or in a cavern wall.

As for aquatic monsters, Aboleths are pretty nasty for CR 7 critters. They have powerful illusions, mucus cloud is especially nasty as a passive Fort save or lose, enslave can net it the party's beat stick and they have pretty good offense from their tentacles. Yet another creature that works best as an ambush by using it's illusions to control the battlefield once the trap's been sprung.

[Derjuin]

I'm sort of surprised this guy (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG241.jpg), the Tendriculos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm), hasn't been mentioned. CR 6, almost 100 hp, Regeneration 10 acid/bludgeoning, plant type, obscene grapple mods and reach (+23 grapple, 15 foot reach). If it eats you, you must make a DC 20 Fort save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds (!!), repeating the save every round, and taking 2d6 acid damage per turn. If it succeeds on a tendril attack and the following grapple check, it also deals bite damage automatically (2d8+9) and can swallow in the next round. Since it's Huge, it can hold 8 medium creatures in its gullet, enough size for a whole party.

Its main weakness is that it can't fly. :smalltongue: Also it is somewhat slow - 20 ft movement, so a party can run from it pretty easily if they aren't ambushed (+9 Hide, taking 10 gives it a 19). Its AC is kind of low, too (AC 16), but it's also got Regeneration 10.

Oh, and I don't know how this works - but it has a "fluff" ability that technically causes animals and plant creatures to be unable to get near it, as its fluff states that animals and other plant creatures are unnerved by its presence and avoid it and any place it has been within 24 hours. So if the DM plays this straight, animal companions, summoned animals (even ones summoned with greenbound summoning) and normal animal mounts won't want to go near one. But there's no mechanics attributed to it, so by RAW it's not really an ability. :smallconfused:

[Sith_Happens]

Even so, within their watery domain, some foes are more challenging than others also sitting at the same CR.

That's more due to the water than the creature, though.


Oh, and I don't know how this works - but it has a "fluff" ability that technically causes animals and plant creatures to be unable to get near it, as its fluff states that animals and other plant creatures are unnerved by its presence and avoid it and any place it has been within 24 hours. So if the DM plays this straight, animal companions, summoned animals (even ones summoned with greenbound summoning) and normal animal mounts won't want to go near one. But there's no mechanics attributed to it, so by RAW it's not really an ability. :smallconfused:

There's nothing about the "Combat" header that makes it a dividing line between "rules" and "not rules," so animals and plants are indeed going to not want to get near a tendriculous. Key words "want to;" that's what Handle Animal, verbal orders, or

It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability.
is for.

[Isamu Dyson]

That's more due to the water than the creature, though.

I actually had two aquatic creatures in mind. That is to say, two aquatic creatures of the same CR might not be equally threatening.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Chaoswyrd for 12. Solid hp, decent AC, aura of temporary wisdom damage, Word of Chaos at an 18th caster level, fast healing 10, 5 attack in on a full, improved grab and constrict. Even flight is a meagre defence because of the free action per round insanity.

From Dragon Magazine Compendium.

[Silva Stormrage]

Chaoswyrd for 12. Solid hp, decent AC, aura of temporary wisdom damage, Word of Chaos at an 18th caster level, fast healing 10, 5 attack in on a full, improved grab and constrict. Even flight is a meagre defence because of the free action per round insanity.

From Dragon Magazine Compendium.

Okay ya thats pretty brutal.

Ulitharid (Lords of Madness 158:Casts as a level 13 psion with a devastating stun attack and instant kill extract) and Greater Storm Elementals (MM3: 36d6 damage in an aoe)

CR 12 and CR 10 respectively

[ZamielVanWeber]

Forgot the insanity has range (line of sight). Thankfully its spot mod it only +17...

A pair of Storm Elements are insultingly hard as their AoE's can heal each other and vomit out insane damage. Fixing the typo greater also does 10d4 non lethal per round to anyone in 10 feet; that can drop a unlucky wizard in a turn.

[TypoNinja]

Forgot the insanity has range (line of sight). Thankfully its spot mod it only +17...

A pair of Storm Elements are insultingly hard as their AoE's can heal each other and vomit out insane damage. Fixing the typo greater also does 10d4 non lethal per round to anyone in 10 feet; that can drop a unlucky wizard in a turn.

Here's a vote for the Storm Elementals. Nasty buggers.

[Rubik]

Any low level creature with the greenbound template. A CR 3 or 4 creature that can cast one of the most effective 1st level spells in the game, as well as a level 5 spell, is more than a bit ridiculous, especially with the Greenbound Summoning feat, since every time you cast a low level Summon Nature's Ally spell you get those SLAs for free.

[137beth]

If the Runehound is bad, wait until you see what happens when you apply the Multi-Headed template. It's just brutal.

Where is the multi-headed template from?

[Karnith]

Where is the multi-headed template from?
Savage Species, pp. 124-126. It's one of the rare templates that adds HD.

[137beth]

Savage Species, pp. 124-126. It's one of the rare templates that adds HD.

...how did I miss that?
Dang, it doesn't allow a multi-headed creature with "swallow whole". There goes my plans for a multi-headed Tarrasque eating everyone in one round.

[Silva Stormrage]

Any low level creature with the greenbound template. A CR 3 or 4 creature that can cast one of the most effective 1st level spells in the game, as well as a level 5 spell, is more than a bit ridiculous, especially with the Greenbound Summoning feat, since every time you cast a low level Summon Nature's Ally spell you get those SLAs for free.

There should be a sub section for templates.

Vampire (For NPC's) is freaking deadly if played intelligently. CR +2 my ass.

[Rubik]

There should be a sub section for templates.

Vampire (For NPC's) is freaking deadly if played intelligently. CR +2 my ass.Except the vulnerabilities are absolutely crippling. A hearty meal of pasta marinara pretty much makes you immune to them.

[Silva Stormrage]

Except the vulnerabilities are absolutely crippling. A hearty meal of pasta marinara pretty much makes you immune to them.

A lot of the time the PC's won't be expecting them though. If given time to prep yes but against a party that doesn't like to use divinations/gather informations etc they can be pretty deadly. Also if no character has knowledge religion it is somewhat metagaming to use those weaknesses against them.

Its counter able but still its pretty deadly. Domination + Fast Healing + Gaseous Form can be ludicrously annoying in their own base as it will be filled with hallways and passageways that only they can enter. They attack for a bit, flee, go to max health. Come back in an ambush. Especially since dominate gaze is essentially a save or lose eventually SOMEONE will fail unless they can get protection from evil up on everyone (In which case the vampire can just wait them out).

[Chronos]

Quoth Rubik:

With LA buyoff, you can have a level 3 character with an additional 5 levels in the ghost savage progression at ECL 3, since you can buy the levels off as you go, and you only ever have 1 LA (for your current non-bought-off ghost level).
What does that have to do with this thread? LA has nothing to do with CR.

As for the effects when a flux slime is destroyed, it's not that hard to just arrange to be more than 50' away when that happens. Unless, of course, our commoner 1 wants to take the risk, in hopes of getting one of the good effects (it's probably the best opportunity the commoner has of getting ahead in the world).

[137beth]

There should be a sub section for templates.

Vampire (For NPC's) is freaking deadly if played intelligently. CR +2 my ass.

Vampire orc warrior 1--CR 2
Even with minimal optimization, it's overpowered for a CR 2.

It only has 6 hit-points, but at least a +7 attack bonus on melee attacks (+8 with weapon focus), and it deals 2 negative levels on a hit--enough to kill any CR 2 PCs. Martial PCs probably won't be able to overcome DR 10/silver AND magic--at least not by much more than the 5 hit-points healed by fast healing.
Against blasting casters it might be threatened somewhat, if they blast it with energy other than cold or electricity (probably magic missile). Fortunately, it can just summon 3d6 CR 1 wolves (by itself, already at least an EL 4 encounter), per round, and run. Even if the PCs survive the onslaught and reach him, the level 2 party will run out of spells pretty quickly, at which point its Energy Draining time.

Yea, definitely overpowered for CR 2.

[Silva Stormrage]

Vampire orc warrior 1--CR 2
Even with minimal optimization, it's overpowered for a CR 2.

It only has 6 hit-points, but at least a +7 attack bonus on melee attacks (+8 with weapon focus), and it deals 2 negative levels on a hit--enough to kill any CR 2 PCs. Martial PCs probably won't be able to overcome DR 10/silver AND magic--at least not by much more than the 5 hit-points healed by fast healing.
Against blasting casters it might be threatened somewhat, if they blast it with energy other than cold or electricity (probably magic missile). Fortunately, it can just summon 3d6 CR 1 wolves (by itself, already at least an EL 4 encounter), per round, and run. Even if the PCs survive the onslaught and reach him, the level 2 party will run out of spells pretty quickly, at which point its Energy Draining time.

Yea, definitely overpowered for CR 2.

You have to have more than 5 HD to become a vampire otherwise you become a vampire spawn. But otherwise you are still correct, its absurd. You could apply it to a minotaur (Not an optimal example) and it still increases the minotaur from underpowered to dramatically overpowered.

[Sith_Happens]

You have to have more than 5 HD to become a vampire otherwise you become a vampire spawn. But otherwise you are still correct, its absurd. You could apply it to a minotaur (Not an optimal example) and it still increases the minotaur from underpowered to dramatically overpowered.

Similarly:

Vampire [any 1 HD humanoid] [any NPC class] 5 -- CR 4

Kills any 4th level character in two slam hits.

[Kennisiou]

Basilisk and Cockatrice are two of the most absurdly unbalanced monsters in the game. Not because they're under or over CR'd... They're actually both at the same time.

Basilisk and Cockatrice are both only really tough because of petrification. The problem is their petrify effects have really low DCs, meaning that they don't happen often, but the effect if the save is failed is petrification, which is something that a level 3 or level 5 party is just frankly not able to deal with. At all. They're basically either pathetically easy or overwhelmingly punishing decided entirely by a low probability save.

[TypoNinja]

I noticed you've got a ? for the source on Will o Wisp. Its a MM/SRD critter.

[Isamu Dyson]

I noticed you've got a ? for the source on Will o Wisp. Its a MM/SRD critter.

The Q-mark signifies that the entry hasn't been chosen for certain...yet. Once I get at least one monster listed for each CR, i'll start going over just what makes them so terrible (for PCs, that is :smallcool:) and remove the punctuation mark.

[Phaederkiel]

The storm elementals are truly powerful, but I think they are not gamebreakingly so, not in the same way as, say, the ephemeral swarm or the clockwork horror.

(okay, i had one near-party wipe when I used one of them, but truth be told, the players did not exactly play it clever. I had to cheat to save a newbie.)

ahem...


Put, put, put the sharn right beside the drowned...

[TypoNinja]

The Q-mark signifies that the entry hasn't been chosen for certain...yet. Once I get at least one monster listed for each CR, i'll start going over just what makes them so terrible (for PCs, that is :smallcool:) and remove the punctuation mark.

In that case, consider a Fiendish Troll if were allowing templates. Its shockingly hard to kill at a cr 6. It gains smite good (bound to work on at least one of the PCs.), dr 5/magic, SR 11, and the insult to the injury, resist cold and fire 5.

They are a bit easier to kill than a Wisp, but have a much higher damage potential.

[Silva Stormrage]

The storm elementals are truly powerful, but I think they are not gamebreakingly so, not in the same way as, say, the ephemeral swarm or the clockwork horror.

(okay, i had one near-party wipe when I used one of them, but truth be told, the players did not exactly play it clever. I had to cheat to save a newbie.)

ahem...


Put, put, put the sharn right beside the drowned...

36d6… at cr 10… that can probably hit the entire party depending on grouping/surprise. Thats 126 damage on average and is more likely to one shot several party members.

Oh and it can deal a 12d4 zap to anyone still up as a free action 1/round. Ya that seems cr 10. :smalltongue:

I will admit its not at Adamantine horror or elemental weird level but its still REALLY bad.

[Zanos]

36d6… at cr 10… that can probably hit the entire party depending on grouping/surprise. Thats 126 damage on average and is more likely to one shot several party members.

Oh and it can deal a 12d4 zap to anyone still up as a free action 1/round. Ya that seems cr 10. :smalltongue:

I will admit its not at Adamantine horror or elemental weird level but its still REALLY bad.
The Storm Elemental seems tame compared to the horror, IMO. Sure, the horror will destroy all your gear or kill someone, but it's only got 88 hp and should die the following round.

The Storm Elemental is likely to kill the entire party on the first round.

[Rubik]

The Storm Elemental seems tame compared to the horror, IMO. Sure, the horror will destroy all your gear or kill someone, but it's only got 88 hp and should die the following round.

The Storm Elemental is likely to kill the entire party on the first round.I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Zanos]

Oh it does, I just typed that sentence wrong.

I think you can find it in your heart to forgive me.

[Rubik]

Oh it does, I just typed that sentence wrong.

I think you can find it in your heart to forgive me.I just wanted to quote The Princess Bride and have it be relevant.

[FabulousFizban]

The Quasit:Supposed to be a CR2, meaning a lvl 1 party SHOULD be able to handle it. What makes this thing ridiculous? dmg reduction 5/cold iron with fast healing 2. It can fly, it has resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, and immunity to electricity & poison. Did I mention it has at will invisibility? Oh, and it's claw attacks deal poison.

Give it some daggers or a bow, which some modules do (one gives it a returning dagger), and it can easily end a party

[Phaederkiel]

The Quasit:Supposed to be a CR2, meaning a lvl 1 party SHOULD be able to handle it. What makes this thing ridiculous? dmg reduction 5/cold iron with fast healing 2. It can fly, it has resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, and immunity to electricity & poison. Did I mention it has at will invisibility? Oh, and it's claw attacks deal poison.

Give it some daggers or a bow, which some modules do (one gives it a returning dagger), and it can easily end a party

How much hp does it have? Because anything below 20 is still well in one round reach for some decent level 1 parties. Remember, a halfly optimized barbarian does 2 attacks with some 2d6+9 in a charge, and is not alone.
Against that, a dmg red of 5/ cold iron does not do much.

[ZamielVanWeber]

But it can simply fly just a little above the heads of the party members and voila. Quasits do die fast to blaster casters though.

[137beth]

But it can simply fly just a little above the heads of the party members and voila. Quasits do die fast to blaster casters though.

Specifically blaster casters who have magic missile, as it bypasses both the miss chance from invisibility and all the quasits resistances/immunities/DR.

Still, a monster that is tricky to defeat by itself unless you happen to have one (admittedly core and common) spell is fairly obnoxious. What if no one in the party can cast magic missile?
I guess the designers just assumed that every party had a cleric, wizard, fighter, and rogue, and the wizard wouldn't be doing anything but blasting, and so of course he would prepare the "standard" 1st-level blasting spell.

[3WhiteFox3]

Specifically blaster casters who have magic missile, as it bypasses both the miss chance from invisibility and all the quasits resistances/immunities/DR.

Still, a monster that is tricky to defeat by itself unless you happen to have one (admittedly core and common) spell is fairly obnoxious. What if no one in the party can cast magic missile?
I guess the designers just assumed that every party had a cleric, wizard, fighter, and rogue, and the wizard wouldn't be doing anything but blasting, and so of course he would prepare the "standard" 1st-level blasting spell.

Magic Missile is hardly a hard counter to the Quazit. Quazits have 13 hp, assuming average damage it would take 5-6 Magic Missiles (12.5 average damage) to kill it and that's ignoring the fast healing. Magic Missile also doesn't help you if you don't know where the Quasit is to target it.

The Quasit will get the drop on the party with invisibility and it's +17 hide modifier. I don't know specifically how 1/week commune might be used, but It's a potentially potent ability regardless. Flight keeps it away from the melee's pointy sticks, high AC and DR means that arrows and thrown weapons are ineffective. Even if you manage to get a lucky shot, if you don't kill it in one turn it has absolutely no incentive to not just go invisible and fast heal back up to full.

It's only real weakness is a lack of ranged offense, but if it gets ahold of a weapon... It could easily slaughter a party within it's supposed challenge range.

[avr]

I still think lycanthrope (werefleshraker) for +3 CR on a creature with fractional CR deserves a mention. DR 10/silver and free Iron Will/+2 Wis to help counter the fleshrakers' main weakness. Vanished without trace above.

[ShriekingDrake]

CR 1: Leech Swarm from It's Wet Outside.

Seriously at CR 1, there's no way in hell anyone is going to be able to deal with them around the levels they're supposed to be encountered at. The DC 20 + Spell level check for casting at the swarm, IF you pass the save versus nauseated, means that even if you do have a wizard who could fry it.... they're probably not going to be able to. 1d6 damage plus 1 Con damage every round. With their +16 to hide they can roughly hit you about 4 time before you even have a 50/50 shot of noticing that you're almost/already dead from it. Ain't hard to TPK parties with this.

Ditto. This takes the CR 1 slot. While the RF Baboon is strong, no doubt, a first level cleric can ordinarily make it run and hide. The leech swarm can kill you before you know its there and its really hard to kill. Also, it has no template and is aquatic.

Also, I wonder if Meenlocks are a contender for the CR 3 slot. Their first attack comes at 300ft and they are as creepy as it gets--the stuff of nightmares.

[Eldariel]

Magic Missile is hardly a hard counter to the Quazit. Quazits have 13 hp, assuming average damage it would take 5-6 Magic Missiles (12.5 average damage) to kill it and that's ignoring the fast healing. Magic Missile also doesn't help you if you don't know where the Quasit is to target it.

Average Magic Missile damage is 3.5 (1d4+1), not 2.5. It would, on average, take 4 Magic Missiles (14 damage) if it doesn't have time to Fast Heal. However, given no caster is like to have 4 Magic Missiles and it's 1 Missile per casting anyways, that'd effectively require 4 people with a Scroll of Magic Missile available.

Quasits and Imps are both annoying. Imp has worse DR (Silver Weapons are cheap, tho Bless Weapon Scroll on a ranged weapon works against either), while having higher AC. Imp's alternative melee form, Boar, is more formidable though Wolf is of course reasonable too (in both cases, it's a significant downgrade). The other forms are mostly useful for going incognito where Invisibility doesn't work.


The combination is superannoying, of course. Being able to shoot, go invisible, Fast Heal and shoot again is something that has precious little counterplay. Ultimately I'd fear Imp more; Suggestion is much more powerful than Cause Fear, Boar is better than Wolf and 20 AC is better than the superior DR.

Extra Initiative and Fire Resistance is nice on paper, but with the Invisibility, Hide and Flight they should be able to get surprise anyways. Fire Resistance just shouldn't matter that much; there are no huge fire spells they should worry about (tho vs. Scorching Ray is much better vs. Imp; still not lethal even if it hits tho at average 14 damage vs. effective 18 HP).


Granted, the straight-up melee of a Quasit in the native form is superior to an Imp: two hits for poison >> a single sting and the DR helps a lot. Ultimately tho, I don't think either of those is actually that scary in straight-up melee, and even the Wolf/Boar forms are mostly useful for clean-up.

[roguemetal]

Hoping these haven't been mentioned yet...

Mirror Mephit CR3 - CL8 Simulacrum 1/day (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits)

Protean Scourge CR12 - While not the greatest offender, a Protean Scourge able to pre-emptively split itself, into a village worth of copies (note no time limit on the ability), with greater invisibility and haste, can be a decent force to be reckoned with for a sub-optimized group. (MMIII)

[Chronos]

I still say the top CR 1 is a fourth-level kobold adept.

[Isamu Dyson]

What is it about the CR3 spot that churns out so many insane abominations?

[Silva Stormrage]

What is it about the CR3 spot that churns out so many insane abominations?

I think its because combat is still so swingy and randomly lethal while also being the level that the designers are starting to give out actual abilities to monsters. CR 1 and 2 are pretty much just tanky meat shields and those tend to be pretty weak (Excluding some rare ones like revived fossils)

[kpumphre]

Is the Drowned (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82985.jpg) (from Monster Manual III) the most broken CR 8 baddie?

Does that thing have a bad stench you need to make a con check every round?

I think my party of 6 level 9's almost had a tpd on it. My swordsage barley escaped out of the tiny 5 foot tunnel. I'm getting ready to fight it up top by myself. Are druid didn't think to use lighting, and 3 of the members were down the first round. My pc doesn't know the group is dead except for him.

Wish me luck

[Silva Stormrage]

I just sent two drowned against my party of level 8's they did pretty well. Only one died! It was quite impressive showing.

Mainly because one of them was using a homebrew class that gets water breathing at will so he could stabilize and ignore their drowning aura :smalltongue:

He wasn't quite able to reach the last PC before he drowned though.

Its fine XD Ressurection is cheap.

[kpumphre]

I'm an unarmed swordsage fighting it, I have 4-5 attacks on a full attack and two attacks on a charge. Along with tripping. I'm going to bounce out of here I don't know anything about them in character so I'm trying to be fair and not learn about them out of game at least until after the fight. Yeah the archer did most of the damage but our Barbarian, cleric and Bard were out before round 1, and my character wasn't in the tunnel cause he called it as a trap (thought an arrow or something not what really happened) So the druid tried fighting in with a stick of disrupting undead (total damage is 3d6) instead of call lighting but we couldn't talk to tell him what to do while the archer was making 2/3 of his shot with the extra cover defined by the small space I tried to get the bard out (but she died and I was trying to move fast so didn't take time to check). By the time my character even found out about what was going on it was 2 rounds in and I failed my tumble check to go through his square so I could fight him at the same time the druid did. I got out of the tunnel and took a round to catch my breath. I think we will start next week of with me fighting it. If I win then a I will ahve a ton of loot at least rest of the party is ticked. The barbarian has been playing him self since level 1 and the others just started the cleric was his first time because he was dm until last week. He was ticked if his girlfriend wasn't still there he would of left. I'm not 100% sure he will show up next week.

[Socksy]

Has anyone mentioned the Alchemical Golem for CR11? Not the worst offender, but...
Full attack, 2 slams +21 melee, 2d8 + 9 + 2d6 acid.
Alchemical healing: It can spend two rounds drinking a barrel of chemicals, cost 500gp, to COMPLETELY heal itself. A poison spell also completely heals it.
It has DR 10/Adamantine and DR 20/Piercing or slashing.
Breath weapon deals 5d6 acid (constitution-based reflex save... ??!) and 2 constitution damage. If you actually manage to deal the thing over 10 damage, it ruptures just long enough to send a burst of breath weapon 5 feet in your direction. DC 21 isn't that bad, though.
It's also immune to magic.

So if the fighter successfully hits, either barely anything happens or he gets gassed, the mage is useless, Sneak Attacks don't work on constructs, and all the Divine caster can do is heal.

Its sole weak point is that Neutralise Poison slows it, but who would waste a spell slot on that unless they're actually expecting golems?

EDIT: 151hp and if you even touch it you take 2d6 damage.

[TypoNinja]

Is the Drowned (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82985.jpg) (from Monster Manual III) the most broken CR 8 baddie?

Thats the thing where you start drowing, just for standing next to it right? You can hold your breath, but its a con check or you involuntarily breath in.

Yea those are pretty heinous.

[avr]

Has anyone mentioned the Alchemical Golem for CR11? Not the worst offender, but...
Full attack, 2 slams +21 melee, 2d8 + 9 + 2d6 acid.
Alchemical healing: It can spend two rounds drinking a barrel of chemicals, cost 500gp, to COMPLETELY heal itself. A poison spell also completely heals it.
It has DR 10/Adamantine and DR 20/Piercing or slashing.
Breath weapon deals 5d6 acid (constitution-based reflex save... ??!) and 2 constitution damage. If you actually manage to deal the thing over 10 damage, it ruptures just long enough to send a burst of breath weapon 5 feet in your direction. DC 21 isn't that bad, though.
It's also immune to magic.

So if the fighter successfully hits, either barely anything happens or he gets gassed, the mage is useless, Sneak Attacks don't work on constructs, and all the Divine caster can do is heal.

Its sole weak point is that Neutralise Poison slows it, but who would waste a spell slot on that unless they're actually expecting golems?

EDIT: 151hp and if you even touch it you take 2d6 damage.
2 rounds is an eternity in combat, and the obvious way to kill it is with lots of adamantine arrows, which an archer should have by this point. Or just bypass it, it's a golem and so not the brightest spark & should be easy to fool. It can't fly can it?

[Chronos]

Breath weapon deals 5d6 acid (constitution-based reflex save... ??!)...
It's possible you're misunderstanding this. The people who get attacked by the breath weapon need to roll Reflex saves using their Dex modifier, just like normal for Reflex saves. The "constitution-based" part refers to how the save DC is calculated: It's 10 + half the golem's HD + the golem's Con modifier. Con-based save DCs are normal for breath weapons, but work out to be much kinder in this case than they do for most creatures with breath weapons, because golems have a +0 Con mod.

[Socksy]

It can't fly. Taking 1d8 each round will mildly irritate it until it drinks its' potion.

And that stuff with the Ref save makes LOTS more sense.

[Phaederkiel]

That kind of golem just gets one-rounded by any halfway optimized melee.
Damage reduction does very little against any kind of charger, or any melee combo.

I mean, if the damage reductions would stack, that would be a major inconvenience, but like that, it will most of the time have only dmg red 10.

Its best ability is obviously that immunity against magic.
The acid abilities do not do enough damage to be of much interest.



Isamu: do you have anything against the sharn, or me? I mean, if you do not like it, pray tell me so. But i feel somewhat ignored, which i do not like.
And "getting it" and giving up goes against my nature.

[3WhiteFox3]

I still say the top CR 1 is a fourth-level kobold adept.

That's the wrong CR for a fourth-level kobold adept. Adept is an NPC class by the RAW (despite being tier 4) and NPC classes are always considered non-associated classes and so the CR is 1/2 the levels in the NPC class.

So fourth level adept kobold = CR 1/2 which is considerably worse than the Orc for that level.

Honestly, Kobolds should have a special category, Kobold Adept 20 is actually pretty brutal for a CR 7 fight. It's got 5th level spells, including Polymorph, Heal, Wall of Stone, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Major Creation, etc...

However, what's worse is a Kobold Adept 2/Full Caster 21 for epic spellcasting at CR 19. Kobolds with NPC class levels have their CR reduced by 3, RAW there's nothing that states that they have to only have NPC classes levels to qualify for the reduction, they just have to have them.

At any point the Kobold is just better than another NPC of the same CR, and that's before all of the cheesy non-core goodies.

[avr]

It can't fly. Taking 1d8 each round will mildly irritate it until it drinks its' potion.

And that stuff with the Ref save makes LOTS more sense.
An archer facing CR 11 enemies who does just 1d8 damage/round deserves all he or she gets. That golem is not seriously unbalanced for its CR.

[Karnith]

That's the wrong CR for a fourth-level kobold adept. Adept is an NPC class by the RAW (despite being tier 4) and NPC classes are always considered non-associated classes and so the CR is 1/2 the levels in the NPC class.
No, Chronos was right. Kobolds have specific rules for CR (as do Goblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm), for example) that do not take associated and non-associated levels into account. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm):

Challenge Rating
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.
Only a Kobold's character level matters, and levels in NPC classes and PC classes count equally toward character level.

[3WhiteFox3]

No, Chronos was right. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm):

Oh, I see it overrides the normal rules for NPC adepts, interestingly that means that the kobold NPC gets worse compared to non-kobold NPCs. That's still pretty bad for the Adept Wizard Combination. Still gets you Epic Spells before CR 21 as the SRD refers to character level not NPC class level for the CR calculation.

[Phaederkiel]

I think the kobold should not really be in this list.

I mean, it is obviously grossly overpowered compared to its cr, and has, at many levels, the abilities to really damage the apropriate party.

But on the other hand, this kobold will not just "happen". When a dm builds this encounter, he actively knows that he is going to go and screw the party over. There are many ways for a dm to change a normal encounter to an absolutely devastating one, simply by messing with things like terrain, feats or spell selection.
We had a test about the feasibility of tier 3 and below classes here in the playground, where the (admittedly very malevolent) DM put in a dungeoncrashing giant against a lvl 7 party. And then some rangers in a dark hallway with knowledge devotion, maxed knowledge against the party, and some spell that makes the next shot a guaranteed crit. And no, the party did not survive this.

Most of the monsters on this list, on the other hand, have the beautiful property to be simply in the books. So, who are my lvl1 going to face? Classic: 2 half-orcs with Falchions! I have a jungle here, what lowlevel undead? Yeah those baboon look funky. What harm can a crab do? And whats so bad about incorporeal or swarms? What does disjunction do?

I think that preference should be given to monsters which you can take from a book, mistakenly think they are balanced, and then accidentally wipe a party with.

So, i think there should be a second list for "look what i did with some template stacking" and tricks like the kobold adept, which probably will not happen accidentally.

[hicegetraenk]

I cheer for the colossal animated object for CR 10.

Make it a colossal chain, preferably made of adamantium for 20 hardness, and there you have your 258 hp grappler with a grapple bonus of +49, constriction damage of 4d6+26, possible to apply to all characters that can fit under it (a complete group of adventurers).
While constricted it pins its victim, so no more moving and speaking, so attacking is impossible, getting out of the grapple almost also, spellcasting is heavily restricted, and even if you manage to get a spell out, you're dealing with a construct that is immune to half the spells out there.

Hitting it with its terrible AC is no problem, but finishing it off before it has grappled you very well could be, depending on your character builds, and once you're grappled, you're pretty much done.


Opinions?

[peacenlove]

Juveline kython for CR 3 in BoVD.
Good Initiative, AC 20, 4 attacks, 3 of them deal poison constitution damage (1d6/1d6 each, DC 15 fort), 2 bonus feats (Imp. Init and Multiattack), blindsight 60', resist 20 / immune to 4 elements, and (small) chance for decent ranged grab attack, +2 AC or ranged entanglement.
Good hp (41), HD (6), Intelligence (10, so he can spend skills in listen, hide, move silently). The 2 bonus feats to the transition to 3.5 do make the difference (Think Ability focus (Poison) and Improved Multiattack). Only thing they lack is pounce.

The CR 1 (broodling) variety is somewhat safer (Doesn't have special weapons, bad (+2) Initiative, 2 attacks, 11 hp) but still has that damnable constitution poison on its 2 attacks and with a free feat it could raise it's DC from 12 to 14. Also for some weird reason both strains of Kython have the same damage for their bite attack (2d6) despite their different size. Having a greatsword for a bite attack its pretty dangerous on a Lvl 1 enviroment. Also 18 AC, 13 touch. Good luck hitting it reliably.

[Popertop]

I'm seconding an additional list with the templates.

[3WhiteFox3]

I cheer for the colossal animated object for CR 10.

Make it a colossal chain, preferably made of adamantium for 20 hardness, and there you have your 258 hp grappler with a grapple bonus of +49, constriction damage of 4d6+26, possible to apply to all characters that can fit under it (a complete group of adventurers).
While constricted it pins its victim, so no more moving and speaking, so attacking is impossible, getting out of the grapple almost also, spellcasting is heavily restricted, and even if you manage to get a spell out, you're dealing with a construct that is immune to half the spells out there.

Hitting it with its terrible AC is no problem, but finishing it off before it has grappled you very well could be, depending on your character builds, and once you're grappled, you're pretty much done.


Opinions?

It has a land speed of 10' and a reach of 20'. It has no way of dealing with flight, it's mindless so it won't have much in the way of tactics. It's not a bad grappler, but at CR 10, you have to be better than that. Players will have access to things like Freedom of Movement, Flight, Greater Invisibility, or other such things that completely negate this encounter even without a full caster. With casters it has to be able to stand up against 5th level spells and I see no way for it to do so. Magic Jar alone turns this encounter from a fight to a free puppet for the party wizard.

[peacenlove]

I'm seconding an additional list with the templates.

Thirding and I would like to put phrenic at cr +1 and monster of legend (MM2) at +2. Makes melee brutes very versatile with immediate action 2+ to will saves, a ranged spell attack, defensive buffs and healing.

Monster of legend ... well only for its +stats/saves is CR +2 but add spell turning, either enhanced attributes or 2 immunities from a hefty list and cleric casting and you just don't really need anything else for a TPK.

For CR +0 templates i nominate the Wyrm of X series from eberron. Lose almost nothing, gain special abilities for your dragon such as maneuvers, bonus feats and + to sorcerer levels

For Cr 12 I would like to nominate the mature adult fang dragon (Draconomicon). With 21 HD he can take epic feats (Let's take the pounce one), Huge, 1d8 Con Drain on bite, spell turning and all the dragon optimization that you can cram on him (except breath weapon)

CR 4 Wyrmling pyroclastic dragon (Draconomicon) with 45' burrow speed and a disintegration breath weapon. Also beefy fast dragon.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Succubus lichfiend. Those DCs.


That's the wrong CR for a fourth-level kobold adept. Adept is an NPC class by the RAW (despite being tier 4) and NPC classes are always considered non-associated classes and so the CR is 1/2 the levels in the NPC class.

So fourth level adept kobold = CR 1/2 which is considerably worse than the Orc for that level.

Honestly, Kobolds should have a special category, Kobold Adept 20 is actually pretty brutal for a CR 7 fight. It's got 5th level spells, including Polymorph, Heal, Wall of Stone, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Major Creation, etc...

Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice.

[3WhiteFox3]

Succubus lichfiend. Those DCs



Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice.

That's not correct.



If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

You are misrepresenting the RAW, once a nonassociated class becomes greater than the original HD that class is treated as associated not just increasing the CR by 1. That's the general rule.


Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

This is the specific rule. Specific trumps general. So, since the two sentences are in conflict the more specific rule about NPC classes trumps the regular rules.

Also, humanoid player races don't have racial hit dice unless specifically stated. Since the levels of nonassociated classes can never equal the original non-existant hit dice of the kobold, they are never treated as associated, even if the above weren't true.

[Chronos]

Which still leads to some absurd results when you take some monster that's just a big dumb pile of HD, and then give it levels in a casting class.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

That's not correct.




You are misrepresenting the RAW, once a nonassociated class becomes greater than the original HD that class is treated as associated not just increasing the CR by 1. That's the general rule.



This is the specific rule. Specific trumps general. So, since the two sentences are in conflict the more specific rule about NPC classes trumps the regular rules.

Also, humanoid player races don't have racial hit dice unless specifically stated. Since the levels of nonassociated classes can never equal the original non-existant hit dice of the kobold, they are never treated as associated, even if the above weren't true.

So, where it says how much the nonassociated class levels add to the CR?

[3WhiteFox3]

So, where it says how much the nonassociated class levels add to the CR?

It's in the paragraph I quoted. 1/2 increase to CR for each nonassociated level. And since NPC classes are always nonassociated, the increase to CR is always 1/2 per level.

Anyway, I was wrong about kobolds, they have another more specific rule about how to calculate their CR.

@Phaederkael - The title of the thread is most unbalanced monster, not monster most likely to accidentally kill a party. Kobolds are exceedingly powerful, regardless of their environment or how much optimization is put into them. Kobold Adept 4 isn't exactly high-op. Though using kobolds for Pre-CR 21 epic spells is definitely extremely high-op and not something that I expect from the average DM. The basic concept isn't that far out there.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

I won't try to persuade you, since it isn't really relevant to the topic, but most NPCs that are made from WoTC have wrong listed CRs, if you are right. Here is a list to see for yourself http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?318984-3e-Wotc-NPC-Index-%28revived%29

[Lans]

We had a test about the feasibility of tier 3 and below classes here in the playground, where the (admittedly very malevolent) DM put in a dungeoncrashing giant against a lvl 7 party. And then some rangers in a dark hallway with knowledge devotion, maxed knowledge against the party, and some spell that makes the next shot a guaranteed crit. And no, the party did not survive this.



That was interesting to say the least. Me and a friend of mine went and made most of an absurd party for that.

It involved using spell thiefs steal spell like ability, improved familiers, and kobolds for spamming invisibility, and silence

[Isamu Dyson]

CR 4 Wyrmling pyroclastic dragon (Draconomicon) with 45' burrow speed and a disintegration breath weapon. Also beefy fast dragon.

Hm. It features no glaring weaknesses?

[Phaederkiel]

@ lans: were you in that unfortunate party? I remember being very angry about that rulebendy dm, but not much about the players. I was in the parallel test with togo that never happened, unfortunately.

[Lans]

@ lans: were you in that unfortunate party? I remember being very angry about that rulebendy dm, but not much about the players. I was in the parallel test with togo that never happened, unfortunately.

It was ran a couple times, I was in an earlier ones, it got scrapped and the dm ran it with his own friends. The party I was in had 2 warmages, a scout and a fighter/knight. I built a warmage that used tensers floating disc to carry cover

[ZamielVanWeber]

Hm. It features no glaring weaknesses?

It has flight, climb, and burrow so it is very mobile. Add to that its decent HP and the line of 15 Fort or disintegration (mechanically you just turn to ash with no descriptors, so RAW you cannot use immune to fire, transmutation, or death to avoid it). This thing is ridiculous for the same reason cockatrice is, except its smart enough to open combat by dusting the wizard and using breath weapons + strafe to end you.

And I am still voting for Sharn to sit in CR 8. Those things are nastier than drowned against equipped parties.

[Isamu Dyson]

It has flight, climb, and burrow so it is very mobile. Add to that its decent HP and the line of 15 Fort or disintegration (mechanically you just turn to ash with no descriptors, so RAW you cannot use immune to fire, transmutation, or death to avoid it). This thing is ridiculous for the same reason cockatrice is, except its smart enough to open combat by dusting the wizard and using breath weapons + strafe to end you.

And I am still voting for Sharn to sit in CR 8. Those things are nastier than drowned against equipped parties.

How are it's Saves and elemental weaknesses? I'm fairly certain it isn't a glass cannon, but if a single (common to semi-common spell) can end it...

[3WhiteFox3]

I won't try to persuade you, since it isn't really relevant to the topic, but most NPCs that are made from WoTC have wrong listed CRs, if you are right. Here is a list to see for yourself http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?318984-3e-Wotc-NPC-Index-%28revived%29

I don't see what that proves. Examples are never treated as rules text, if the rules say one thing and the example contradicts it, the example is wrong. WoTC is infamous for making sample characters that are flat out incorrect in egregious ways. The errata they put out specifically states that example character statblocks are always to be ignored in favor of the actual rules text. Primary Source over Secondary.

Anyway this is getting off-topic, if you want to I'd be glad to discuss this in another thread or through PMs.

On-Topic: I'd like to throw in my support for templates having their own special place on the list. I'll even start it off.

Templates: Varied CR.

Templates are a special case for unbalanced monsters, they take an already fine monster and add abilities to it for a CR increase. The problem with this is two-fold. Templates work better on certain monsters for than others, or the abilities given can be more dangerous at certain CRs; many templates for instance mean very little when applied to a CR 20 Black Dragon Wyrm, but are devastating when applied to a CR 1/4 kobold for example.

So when discussing the templates I'll put a danger range for the CRs that the template is most dangerous at.

Natural Lycanthrope (1-7): DR 10/Silver is going to be impossible to overcome for most low-level parties. The additional ability bonuses and abilities are also useful. Different animals give a wide range of abilities, especially sense even within the same CR increase there are wildly different levels of powers for animals in the same HD range.

[Isamu Dyson]

I'm curious as to how unbalanced the Paragon template is.

[Hurnn]

CR4:
Hammerclaw Stormwrack:

good ac 19

good hp 54

on demand cone stun attack that does 4d6 dammage (half if saved)
Imp grab and constrict on its 2 claw attacks +9 d6+4, 2d6+4 constrict realistically you are looking at 3d6+8 on each claw attack it is going to win the grapple check (large + 19 str)

Basically its that damn crab with more nasty tricks.

As to allip vs the crab with the allip you could get lucky spamming your Turns on it, the crab is going to 1 round a party member each turn.

[ZamielVanWeber]

How are it's Saves and elemental weaknesses? I'm fairly certain it isn't a glass cannon, but if a single (common to semi-common spell) can end it...

It is immune to Fire and Sonic, it not Fire subtyped so has no weaknesses and it had 7 HD of Dragon hit dice, so it has dramatically better saves than the ELC 4 party it is facing. Flying so early on gives it a powerful resistance to melee.

[TuggyNE]

It is immune to Fire and Sonic, it not Fire subtyped so has no weaknesses and it had 7 HD of Dragon hit dice, so it has dramatically better saves than the ELC 4 party it is facing. Flying so early on gives it a powerful resistance to melee.

Technically, the lack of subtype doesn't matter; fire or cold immunity always comes with vulnerability to the opposing element, as was recently uncovered in Dysfunctional Rules IV.

[Isamu Dyson]

Technically, the lack of subtype doesn't matter; fire or cold immunity always comes with vulnerability to the opposing element, as was recently uncovered in Dysfunctional Rules IV.

Was this revealed in the Core RAW?

If they are weak versus cold, which 2nd level or lower Cold-type spells could be used against it?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Was this revealed in the Core RAW?

If they are weak versus cold, which 2nd level or lower Cold-type spells could be used against it?

Yes. Although that may be kept under a rules dysfunction (otherwise Drowned become less scary as they accidentally heal people they knocked into the negatives). That would leave lesser Orb of Cold as a spell that could knock out a decent chunk of their health (although an average of 59 on a CR4 is a healthy total).

[Isamu Dyson]

Yes. Although that may be kept under a rules dysfunction (otherwise Drowned become less scary as they accidentally heal people they knocked into the negatives). That would leave lesser Orb of Cold as a spell that could knock out a decent chunk of their health (although an average of 59 on a CR4 is a healthy total).

Well, it still seems inordinately tough for a CR4 encounter. Up on the list it goes!

[Slide]

For CR 11, how could we forget the old favorite, the Shadesteel Golem?

If you cast a light spell, it's hasted for 2d4 rounds. If you don't, it automatically gets concealment, and it has a +15 to Hide with darkvision.

It's magic immune with DR 10/adamantine AND magic. So just say DR 10 and be done with it.

Slams for 2d6+7 at +20 (twice on full attack) and has a 12d6 negative energy wave every 1d4+1 rounds in a FORTY FOOT RADIUS around the thing. The negative energy wave is a free action, so it can charge into the middle of the group, pulse wave and slam someone. Decent odds you can kill at least one party member in the first round.

[TuggyNE]

It's magic immune with DR 10/adamantine AND magic. So just say DR 10 and be done with it.

Golem "infinite SR" immunity to magic, fortunately, does not affect magic weapons, which ignore SR.

Still, the rest is quite on point, and the Shadesteel is pretty impressive.

[peacenlove]

How are it's Saves and elemental weaknesses? I'm fairly certain it isn't a glass cannon, but if a single (common to semi-common spell) can end it...

No elemental weaknesses, 59 hp, 16 ac, Immunity fire and sonic (!), F/R/W: 7/5/5, 7 HD (3 custom feats), Starts as medium with frightful presence (DC 13) so might stop chargers/summons on their feet and SR 14.

[TypoNinja]

I'm curious as to how unbalanced the Paragon template is.

Not very actually, unless your game gets to hilariously high levels.

The massive CR (+15) adjustment will mean that while your critter has terrifying stats it'll have hilariously low HD making it vulnerable to several "Just die, no save" effects. Happened in my Epic Level game, felt kinda bad for our DM.

There might be a sweet spot if we slapped it on something weenie enough that the players didn't have access to any of those options.



Natural Lycanthrope (1-7): DR 10/Silver is going to be impossible to overcome for most low-level parties. The additional ability bonuses and abilities are also useful. Different animals give a wide range of abilities, especially sense even within the same CR increase there are wildly different levels of powers for animals in the same HD range.



CR 5 WereTiger it gets pounce, and hide and move silently as skills. That's an ambush that could wreck things.

2 claws +11 melee (1d8+7) and bite +6 melee (2d6+3) 2 Rake +9 melee damage 1d8+3. So, 4d8+2d6+23. If that doesn't kill the poor party caster outright I'd be shocked. On the off chance you live through the pounce, it gets improved grab.

Give it levels of Scout if you are feeling particularly Evil.

[3WhiteFox3]

Not very actually, unless your game gets to hilariously high levels.

The massive CR (+15) adjustment will mean that while your critter has terrifying stats it'll have hilariously low HD making it vulnerable to several "Just die, no save" effects. Happened in my Epic Level game, felt kinda bad for our DM.

There might be a sweet spot if we slapped it on something weenie enough that the players didn't have access to any of those options.

Agreed, you have to find something weenie, but not so weenie to be useless. Even something like a Paragon Raven (CR 13) is going to be completely screwed by the fact that it has only 20 hp, 1/4 HD and fairly low damage. Basically, with the CR adjustment, any paragon creature is going to be brought up to levels were sheer numbers just don't cut it any more. (And with a few exceptions, that's all the Paragon template offers.)

High AC, High Saves, Average SR, High Attacks and High Damage can all be fairly easily dealt with by the time the party hits the high teens. 13th level casters have 7th level spells, such as Simulacrum, Forcecage, Bigsby's Grasping Hand, Limited Wish, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Project Image. That's just in core alone.


CR 5 WereTiger it gets pounce, and hide and move silently as skills. That's an ambush that could wreck things.

2 claws +11 melee (1d8+7) and bite +6 melee (2d6+3) 2 Rake +9 melee damage 1d8+3. So, 4d8+2d6+23. If that doesn't kill the poor party caster outright I'd be shocked. On the off chance you live through the pounce, it gets improved grab.

Give it levels of Scout if you are feeling particularly Evil.

Yeah, WereTiger sounds pretty nasty. If anyone else has powerful Lycanthrope examples, I'd be glad to list them with the template. I'll do some editing on the post tomorrow.