Why did Laurin disappear?

[Dante2001]

Another contingency spell? And can Tarquin have one?

[Kish]

Because a vampire was draining her and it hurt and also she was watching her precious power points bleed away like her blood was going to start doing in about another round when he actually bit her.

No verbal or somatic components to psionic powers; she was able to Dimension Door out of a grapple.

Tsukiko can't have one; she's dead. If you mean someone else whose name begins with T, it depends on the class of that person.

[Snails]

She probably just used a Dimension Door psionic power. Unlike spells, psionic powers do not seem to require verbal announcements.

It is possible, but very unlikely, that this was a Contingency.

It is within the realm of the theoretically possible, but very unlikely, for Tarquin to have a Contingency.

[Snails]

Tsukiko can't have one; she's dead. If you mean someone else whose name begins with T, it depends on the class of that person.

There exist means that do not depend on class abilities (Use Magic Device skill, Ring of Spell Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#spellStoringMajor)) but they are expensive and clumsy.

[Aharon]

She probably just used a Dimension Door psionic power. Unlike spells, psionic powers do not seem to require verbal announcements.

It is possible, but very unlikely, that this was a Contingency.

It is within the realm of the theoretically possible, but very unlikely, for Tarquin to have a Contingency.

Well, Contingency, Psionic is a psionic power - but I agree it is unlikely.

[The Pilgrim]

She teleported like 100 meters away. I don't think that's a contingency spell.

[ScrapperTBP]

You can see her in the background if you look hard enough.

[Pentegarn]

You can see her in the background if you look hard enough.

I am surprised how many missed that, considering how everyone goes over the comic with a fine toothed comb and all that

[Secris]

Woah, I totally missed her in the background. Good, she's not out of the fight.

[draigan]

She teleported like 100 meters away. I don't think that's a contingency spell.

Thanks not sure how the hell i missed that lol

[Gnome Alone]

Woah, I totally missed her in the background. Good, she's not out of the fight.

My first thought was "damn, she got away," then "oh wait, she just backed off a bit; damn, she's still in the fight" and then I realized "oh good, that means there's still a chance of her being killed." It was all in like half a second too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She teleported like 100 meters away. I don't think that's a contingency spell.

That's not how a contingency spell works. Contingency is an "if" clause on a second spell. She could have had contingency: if level drained -> dimension door.

Grey Wolf

[colanderman]

She didn't disappear, she shrunk. She did so for the AC bonus it confers.

[137beth]

She didn't disappear, she shrunk. She did so for the AC bonus it confers.

You saying that her appearing 'further back' is a trick of the two-dimensional drawing?

\end{thread}

[MonochromeTiger]

That's not how a contingency spell works. Contingency is an "if" clause on a second spell. She could have had contingency: if level drained -> dimension door.

Grey Wolf

entirely true, far as I can read contingency simply requires a condition on which to activate a spell or power, the most common contingency spells are usually heals though and since she mentions having some healing powers it might've been more effective to simply choose a restorative power or a counter over an escape power.

personally I think it's more a situation of her being surprised and getting out of a fight that's suddenly far less one sided (considering a personal enemy of tarquin just showed up with an airship full of who knows how many crew and weapons as well as the enemy vampire now being able to fight without worrying about the sun.)

[colanderman]

You saying that her appearing 'further back' is a trick of the two-dimensional drawing?

Yes, I thought that at first too. But upon a second reading clearly she has shrunk. The question I have however is why is she also flying?

[MonochromeTiger]

Yes, I thought that at first too. But upon a second reading clearly she has shrunk. The question I have however is why is she also flying?

I'm 90% sure this is some sort of attempt at trolling as it's fairly clear she teleported out of the shaded area durkon can attack her in and into the unshaded area a distance away. one of the more obvious tells is that her robe is brighter than it was while in the shade.

[Saposhiente]

This shrinking theory seems entirely unreasonable. It probably just looks funny because it's really small and Rich probably didn't put detail work into it (since you wouldn't be able to see it anyway). I can't think of any spell that would shrink and teleport you and then make you fly, nor any reason for Laurin to use it over regular teleportation, nor any reason for such a spell to exist.
Edit: ninja'd

[Gift Jeraff]

It's not a size-changing power because the "pop!" effect scaled. Compare to Qarr and Nale's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) which were more or less the same size.

[ben-zayb]

She didn't disappear, she shrunk. She did so for the AC bonus it confers.

Nah, I think she shrunk to get that ginormous bonus to hide, with the mechane's shadow providing concealment of sorts.

[Cavenskull]

Yes, I thought that at first too. But upon a second reading clearly she has shrunk. The question I have however is why is she also flying?
Isn't it obvious? Laurin is just standing on raised section of sand. It's pretty clear that the darkened area is a depression in the sand that smoothly curves upward to an abrupt ledge. Don't tell me you thought it was a shadow or something.

As for how she got up there, her shrinking ability clearly is centered around her head, meaning that as Laurin shrinks, her body is pulled up towards the focal point of the spell. Since it's self-evident that she had an interest in evasive maneuvers, she simply lunged toward the sand ledge as she activated her shrinking ability, which had the effect of launching her shrinking body toward the shelf.

How do people not figure out these things?

[Jay R]

Actually, jumping to a spot near enough to cast spells, but far from the Mechane's shadow was the most tactically sound decision she could make.

[Snails]

Careful.


You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

There is a bit of ambiguity here. If I have Contingency + Teleport, when can I choose the target destination?

Most DMs rule that these decisions must be made at the time of the casting of the Contingency spell, therefore safe guesses are important. Allowing hyperfine tuning on the fly of an out of sequence action would be incredibly powerful, and it makes Contingency much more difficult to adjudicate.

Under this ruling, Dimension Door is not a very good choice, because you must make a useful choice of target destination far ahead of time. Do you end up somewhere even worse?

There are contrary opinions, of course.

[Saposhiente]

She could also just cast D Door.

[The Pilgrim]

That's not how a contingency spell works. Contingency is an "if" clause on a second spell. She could have had contingency: if level drained -> dimension door.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but if I were an epic level psion and I prepared a contingency spell to save my arse in case of trouble (like Miron did), I'd certainly prepare something that pulls me considerably more far than about 100 meters.

(Basically because when you are Epic Level, the most probable scenario is that whatever is out to kill you, will probably have a blast radius of far more than that).

[Cavenskull]

Careful.



There is a bit of ambiguity here. If I have Contingency + Teleport, when can I choose the target destination?

Most DMs rule that these decisions must be made at the time of the casting of the Contingency spell, therefore safe guesses are important. Allowing hyperfine tuning on the fly of an out of sequence action would be incredibly powerful, and it makes Contingency much more difficult to adjudicate.

Under this ruling, Dimension Door is not a very good choice, because you must make a useful choice of target destination far ahead of time. Do you end up somewhere even worse?
Actually, you'd probably end up not teleporting at all. Dimension Door has a short enough range that unless you tend to stay in a very small area all the time, you'll probably be out of range of your destination when the spell is triggered.

[Poppy Appletree]

Yeah, but if I were an epic level psion and I prepared a contingency spell to save my arse in case of trouble (like Miron did), I'd certainly prepare something that pulls me considerably more far than about 100 meters.

(Basically because when you are Epic Level, the most probable scenario is that whatever is out to kill you, will probably have a blast radius of far more than that).

We have no evidence of Laurin being Epic level, and there is no reason such a minor character should be Epic level. Xykon and the Order of the Scribble are the only characters known to be Epic.

[elros]

I'm wondering if she actually used a psionic power. The Giant always used yellow aura to demonstrate psionics, and I don't see any here. Just the standard blue associated with teleportation.
Also, I don't think Laurin is epic, merely high level.

[The Pilgrim]

We have no evidence of Laurin being Epic level, and there is no reason such a minor character should be Epic level. Xykon and the Order of the Scribble are the only characters known to be Epic.

Yeah, but if I were a level 15-20 psion and I prepared a contingency spell to save my arse in case of trouble (like Miron did), I'd certainly prepare something that pulls me considerably more far than about 100 meters.

(Basically because when you are level 15-20, the most probable scenario is that whatever is out to kill you, will probably have a blast radius of far more than that).

(Happy now?)

[Bird]

We have no evidence of Laurin being Epic level, and there is no reason such a minor character should be Epic level. Xykon and the Order of the Scribble are the only characters known to be Epic.
The Order is getting up there in terms of levels. Giving them a challenge is a good reason to make antagonists epic -- though I don't think Laurin has to be epic either, necessarily. Not enough information to call it.

Anyway, Laurin didn't shrink, she made everything else bigger.

[Trillium]

I'm wondering if she actually used a psionic power. The Giant always used yellow aura to demonstrate psionics, and I don't see any here. Just the standard blue associated with teleportation.
Also, I don't think Laurin is epic, merely high level.

If you look really close, you can see, you can see yellow dweomer around Laurin's head in the distance.
And it's just her dweomer. Little Psion's (That Could) dweomer was pinkish.

Blue color is for sounds. Like "clang!" or "pop!".

[ChristianSt]

I'm wondering if she actually used a psionic power. The Giant always used yellow aura to demonstrate psionics, and I don't see any here. Just the standard blue associated with teleportation.
Also, I don't think Laurin is epic, merely high level.

Actually we see a yellow aura around Laurin's head (background of panel 6, many people seem to miss this detail).
I think it would look weird if there would some of that aura floating in the place where she stood before teleporting.


Damn Ninjas ...

[Bird]

If you look really close, you can see, you can see yellow dweomer around Laurin's head in the distance.
And it's just her dweomer. Little Psion's (That Could) dweomer was pinkish.

Blue color is for sounds. Like "clang!" or "pop!".
Yes. So too with the Blue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) that Redcloak hired.

Psion "Psteve" from SS&DT also had a purple dweomer IIRC.

("Dweomer." I'm grateful for Gygax every time I type that word.)

[colanderman]

Isn't it obvious? Laurin is just standing on raised section of sand. […] As for how she got up there, her shrinking ability clearly is centered around her head, meaning that as Laurin shrinks, her body is pulled up towards the focal point of the spell.

I'll buy this.


It's not a size-changing power because the "pop!" effect scaled. Compare to Qarr and Nale's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html) which were more or less the same size.

I figured that was because Qarr was teleporting further.

Since when are you the straight man? :P

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, but if I were a level 15-20 psion and I prepared a contingency spell to save my arse in case of trouble (like Miron did), I'd certainly prepare something that pulls me considerably more far than about 100 meters.

(Basically because when you are level 15-20, the most probable scenario is that whatever is out to kill you, will probably have a blast radius of far more than that).

(Happy now?)

Not at all. First, you are falling into the trap that every character must be perfectly optimised, or otherwise you find it wrong. Roy should've dumped intelligence, Belkar should not have gone into ranger, V should have barred different schools, etc. That is as close to a fallacy as it gets.

Second, psions only get a small selection of powers. In a team as well coordinated as Tarquin's, it would be silly for the psion to use one of her limited spell selections to pick a duplicate of a spell that Miron already had. Teleportation is an utility spell, and she has wormhole for that. As to contingency, adventuring teams aren't successful when their casters bolt at the sign of trouble.

Finally, this is irrelevant. I was not arguing that contingency-> dimension door is what was used, only that the description of contingency I was answering to was wrong. Besides, like so many others, I just think Laurin used her turn to cast dimension door to get out of the grapple - and indeed, that she has lost the wormhole spell, so she and Tarquin are now stuck

Grey Wolf

[SoC175]

We have no evidence of Laurin being Epic level, and there is no reason such a minor character should be Epic level. Xykon and the Order of the Scribble are the only characters known to be Epic.Malak was an epic character

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Malak was an epic character

So is Durkon, but both only because vampirisation boosted their level without giving them any actual epic powers. Since the defence was that "Laurin should have used an epic spell with contingency", the objection still stands: there is no reason to think she has epic powers.

Grey Wolf

[HZ514]

The Order is getting up there in terms of levels. Giving them a challenge is a good reason to make antagonists epic -- though I don't think Laurin has to be epic either, necessarily. Not enough information to call it.

Anyway, Laurin didn't shrink, she made everything else bigger.

Clearly, Laurin has been busy speedrunning Super Mario 64 and whipped out her secret Tiny-Huge Island strategy. It would've been more optimal to channel Tick Tock Clock and just freeze everyone in time, but hey. Maybe she hasn't mastered that level yet.

[The Pilgrim]

Not at all. First, you are falling into the trap that every character must be perfectly optimised, or otherwise you find it wrong.

Wow, you took that monk class that lets you jump as far as you want, and apply it to conclusions, don't you?

Where did I say Laurin is "wrong" as a character? Or anything near that. About her or about any other character in this strip?


Second, psions only get a small selection of powers. In a team as well coordinated as Tarquin's, it would be silly for the psion to use one of her limited spell selections to pick a duplicate of a spell that Miron already had. Teleportation is an utility spell, and she has wormhole for that.

And your point is? Because mine was "a high-level psion will have picked as last-ditch save-my-arse spell something else than a spell that jumps her within eyesight of the enemy casters.


As to contingency, adventuring teams aren't successful when their casters bolt at the sign of trouble.

More to my point since Laurin hasn't endured much damage yet, so it would be quite pointless to prepare a contingency to bolt at first blood.


Finally, this is irrelevant. I was not arguing that contingency-> dimension door is what was used, only that the description of contingency I was answering to was wrong.

So, basically, your point is "you are right but I still want to look like I know a lot about D&D rules".

Fine with me. Have a cookie.

[Souhiro]

It has to be a Contingency.

Even if she could cast Dimension Door without somatic or Verbal components, she would have provoked an AoO. And her Dimension Door was too... "Instantly".

Which is odd... the ONLY time I could prepare a contingency spell (Never reached so high level) I first tough about "Dimension Door". Problem is: You cannot say "Dimension Door to Safety" but to a pre-set destination: You must say "When (Circustance) Then (Dimension Door 5ft to East)" or something like.

It's a little dangerous when you pass most of your time in a building: You could end teleported inside a wall. But then... it almost has confirmed 99% Laurie's Psion level! She must be between 12 and 15. With 15, she could have used Psionic Teleport (My Sanctum) instead of Dimension Door. Because, how useful would be a Dimension Door (400 feet at north), if you're in a lost battle among two armies?

[Shale]

But why would she learn Psionic Teleport? She has Wormhole for all the functionality Teleport can offer and then some, with the PP to spam it like mad. You're assuming that she would perfectly optimize her entire build for this one battle she had no idea she was going to fight twenty minutes ago.

[Volthawk]

It has to be a Contingency.

Even if she could cast Dimension Door without somatic or Verbal components, she would have provoked an AoO. And her Dimension Door was too... "Instantly".

Which is odd... the ONLY time I could prepare a contingency spell (Never reached so high level) I first tough about "Dimension Door". Problem is: You cannot say "Dimension Door to Safety" but to a pre-set destination: You must say "When (Circustance) Then (Dimension Door 5ft to East)" or something like.

It's a little dangerous when you pass most of your time in a building: You could end teleported inside a wall. But then... it almost has confirmed 99% Laurie's Psion level! She must be between 12 and 15. With 15, she could have used Psionic Teleport (My Sanctum) instead of Dimension Door. Because, how useful would be a Dimension Door (400 feet at north), if you're in a lost battle among two armies?

Manifesting defensively is a thing, and psionic powers don't have somatic, verbal or material components.

[Yuki Akuma]

It has to be a Contingency.

Even if she could cast Dimension Door without somatic or Verbal components, she would have provoked an AoO. And her Dimension Door was too... "Instantly".

She's a Psion. And at least 11th level (and probably higher) at that.

She could easily have manifested Psionic Dimension Door defensively. Because psionic powers don't have verbal or somatic components, ever. Possibly Quickened, if you're that bothered by her doing it so quickly (that would require her to be 13th level, but... she's probably higher than level 13, too).

[Sir_Leorik]

And your point is? Because mine was "a high-level psion will have picked as last-ditch save-my-arse spell something else than a spell that jumps her within eyesight of the enemy casters.

More to my point since Laurin hasn't endured much damage yet, so it would be quite pointless to prepare a contingency to bolt at first blood.

So, basically, your point is "you are right but I still want to look like I know a lot about D&D rules".

Can I just point out that as a high-level, possibly Epic level, Psion, Laurin doesn't need to use Psionic Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/contingencyPsionic.htm) to make Psionic Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm) more useful. By spending 6 Power Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints) to Augment Psionic Dimension Door, Laurin can manifest Psionic Dimension Door as a Move Action.

Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) and Psionic Contingency have a major limitation: they can be chained to a single spell or psionic power at a time. Psionic Contingency also has a minimal XP cost of 15 XP; Contingency, meanwhile, requires a statuette of the caster carved from elephant tusk ivory and studded with gems, costing a minimum of 1,500 gp for a focus, and a rather difficult to acquire material component, namely an Oni Mage or Rakhshasha's eyelash. (Catch a Rakhshasa by the tail, indeed! :smalltongue:) I personally don't think that chaining Psionic Contingency to Psionic Dimension Door is a worthwhile use of Laurin's time or XP, but you're welcome to disagree.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wow, you took that monk class that lets you jump as far as you want, and apply it to conclusions, don't you?
Ad hominem. Never a good way to start a post. I fail to see what insulting me will accomplish, other than weakening your overall position.


Where did I say Laurin is "wrong" as a character? Or anything near that.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16453695&postcount=25). By saying if you were Lauirin, you'd do things differently, you are implicitly saying that the way Laurin handled this situation is wrong.


And your point is? Because mine was "a high-level psion will have picked as last-ditch save-my-arse spell something else than a spell that jumps her within eyesight of the enemy casters.
Mine was "that's not how contingency works" and now "stop assuming every character must be optimised". Nothing you have added since changes either of those, since you have just restated your original comments.


More to my point since Laurin hasn't endured much damage yet, so it would be quite pointless to prepare a contingency to bolt at first blood.
Which is why no-one suggested she tied the contingency to "first blood" but to the much more dangerous "lose caster levels".


So, basically, your point is "you are right but I still want to look like I know a lot about D&D rules".

No, my point is that you are wrong because you expect all characters to make perfect (according to your definition of perfect) character building decisions, which they don't in OotS, that you are wrong because there is nothing wrong with contingency - short distance teleport when you are part of a team that already has long distance teleport covered and that you are wrong in assuming it could not have been a contingency spell based on your own opinions of what a character would or would not do.

So while I agree it probably wasn't a contingency, I disagree on your reasons for it.

Grey Wolf

[wootage]

It has to be a Contingency.

Even if she could cast Dimension Door without somatic or Verbal components, she would have provoked an AoO. And her Dimension Door was too... "Instantly".

Which is odd... the ONLY time I could prepare a contingency spell (Never reached so high level) I first tough about "Dimension Door". Problem is: You cannot say "Dimension Door to Safety" but to a pre-set destination: You must say "When (Circustance) Then (Dimension Door 5ft to East)" or something like.

It's a little dangerous when you pass most of your time in a building: You could end teleported inside a wall. But then... it almost has confirmed 99% Laurie's Psion level! She must be between 12 and 15. With 15, she could have used Psionic Teleport (My Sanctum) instead of Dimension Door. Because, how useful would be a Dimension Door (400 feet at north), if you're in a lost battle among two armies?

True, but there's also the party loyalty motive. As Laurin has near-unlimited ability to PDoor (psion version of w/e she's using) and ranged attacks, I would think that moving to a distance which will let her assess the situation and either act in support or rescue of her party members or PDoor completely out is a very justifiable response.

edit: not that I'm saying it was a contingency. I dunno what it was, but there it was.

[The Pilgrim]

Ad hominem. Never a good way to start a post. I fail to see what insulting me will accomplish, other than weakening your overall position.

You seem to have a fair skin for someone whose whole argument is just a big straw-man fallacy.


Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16453695&postcount=25). By saying if you were Lauirin, you'd do things differently, you are implicitly saying that the way Laurin handled this situation is wrong.

Straw-Man fallacy. I said that Laurin wouldn't have used a Contingency on a Dimension Door because she probably has much better escape powers available to her.

What my statement there implies is just the opposite, Laurin handled the situation right because she didn't burn a Contingency.


Mine was "that's not how contingency works" and now "stop assuming every character must be optimised". Nothing you have added since changes either of those, since you have just restated your original comments.

As I never assumed every character must be optimized, I need to make no coment about your straw-man fallacy. It's just invalid by default.

And you basically keep up with it.

Nice, have a cookie. Give me a call when you decide to argue about my real arguments. :smallsmile:

[Hague]

Psionic Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm) was the ability used. Psions do not need to use verbal or somatic components to manifest their abilities. She augmented it and used her move action to Door out of the way. She could also have a feat that lets her manifest her powers quicker by expending her psionic focus. Which she is probably regaining right now with her standard action.

[brionl]

That's not how a contingency spell works. Contingency is an "if" clause on a second spell. She could have had contingency: if level drained -> dimension door.

Grey Wolf

More likely, if grappled: Dimension Door.

[Kish]

More likely, if grappled: Dimension Door.
It's kind of unlikely she had either. I'm not going to look up Dimension Door to figure out whether the contingency would generally fail outright because she would need to set a specific destination and most of the world would be out of range of whatever destination she chose while casting the Contingency, or she could set a "Dimension Door me north to the limits of the spell's range" contingency, because I'd consider either one an unlikely tactic for a smarter-than-Elan spellcaster.
"Jacinda, where's Laurin?"
"Funny thing, we were fighting some nut who tried to grapple her, and before I could kill him she'd blinked over the edge of a nearby cliff and fallen to her death."

[brionl]

Anyway, Laurin didn't shrink, she made everything else bigger.

Of course, she's got a Gnomish World Enlarger (http://www.wowhead.com/item=18660/). Probably macroed to a hotkey.

[Porthos]

What I am wondering is why we are making this more complicated than necessary. She could have easily DD'd out of there using a Move Action.

There's no need for Contingency. IMO, Contingency is overkill for what we saw. If she was going to Contingency anything, I would think it would be for something A) Much worse than just getting grappled B) Much less specific than "Getting level drained" and C) Much better than port X amount of yards away. I mention the last bit because setting Contingency in that way in a battle situation is asking for trouble (if the port direction/distance is predefined that could port one into a WORSE area of the battlefield).

Miron's Contingency made sense because it was "If I get too damaged, get me the frak out of here before I even think about anything". Using this specific spell makes much less sense to me for Contingency, since it could be used as a Move Action and the trigger wasn't a "OMG, I'm about to die".

Sorry, I just don't see it. Personally I think we're getting too influenced from just seeing someone else use Contingency. :smallwink:

Now if it was, it was. But it seems like a poor use of it to me. :smallsmile:

[Sir_Leorik]

Given the nature of D&D Psionics, which have no verbal, somatic or material components, The Giant has chosen to represent powers being manifested through a glowing aura or dweomer, rather than someone announcing a spell name, which how casting spells (Arcane or Divine) works.

As such, in order to determine what power Laurin is manifesting requires careful examination of the comic panel in which she manifests, and an exhaustive look through Expanded Psionic Handbook or the d20 SRD. In the case of comic 931, Laurin manifested Psionic Dimension Door, not Psionic Teleport or Wormhole. She may have augmented the power by 6 PP in order to manifest as a move action, or she may have manifested using the Metapsionic feat Quicken Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#quickenPower), at the cost of expending her Psionic Focus and an extra 6 PP. As noted in the feat description, manifesting a Quickened Power does not provoke AOO's.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You seem to have a fair skin for someone whose whole argument is just a big straw-man fallacy.
Again opening with an ad-hominem.


Straw-Man fallacy. I said that Laurin wouldn't have used a Contingency on a Dimension Door because she probably has much better escape powers available to her.

No you didn't. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16453695&postcount=25) You said and repeat here that if you were Laurin, you would have better powers - i.e. an optimization argument ("her power selection is poor if all she has is dimension door and wormhole").


What my statement there implies is just the opposite, Laurin handled the situation right because she didn't burn a Contingency.

You don't know that she did, and your logic goes something like this: if you were Laurin, you would have learnt all three of dimension door, wormhole and teleport, just so you could use teleport in the contingency spell. This is a stretch of an argument backed up by nothing else that your belief that fewer than those three spells are not the correct choice.


As I never assumed every character must be optimized, I need to make no coment about your straw-man fallacy. It's just invalid by default.

Every time you base your arguments on the powers you would choose if you were a high-level psion (i.e. every time) you are ipso facto using an optimisation argument. Which you did:

Yeah, but if I were an epic level psion and I prepared a contingency spell to save my arse in case of trouble (like Miron did), I'd certainly prepare something that pulls me considerably more far than about 100 meters.

I.e. according to you, that cannot be a contingency because a high level psion would never contingency-dimension door, because they should contingency: teleport. That is the long and short of your argument, and is clearly based on optimization.

If Laurin is not optimized, and assuming other constraints such as the legality of contingency: dimension door that others have questioned, then it is perfectly possible she used contingency: dimension door as a stop gag, followed by her actual turn where she then is free to choose either continue the fight or flee, giving her actual control over the contingency spell rather than Miron's lack of control.

Contingency is not powerful because it gets you out of trouble, it is powerful because it is an out-of-turn spell. If Laurin wants to use it to give herself space in a battle, that is as valid an use as using it to abandon your team when you are needed.

Grey Wolf

[brionl]

Malak was an epic character

He almost certainly had an epic ECL. There's no evidence that he had any actual epic feats/powers. The only evidence we have is that his caster level was probably lower than Durkon's.

[Snails]

Psionic Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionDoorPsionic.htm) was the ability used. Psions do not need to use verbal or somatic components to manifest their abilities. She augmented it and used her move action to Door out of the way. She could also have a feat that lets her manifest her powers quicker by expending her psionic focus. Which she is probably regaining right now with her standard action.

Yes, that makes sense.

Re-gaining here psionic focus would allow her to use the metapsionic Quicken Power feat, which would be very valuable in a tactically confusing situation, especially if she might need to rescue Tarquin and retreat.

[The Pilgrim]

Again opening with an ad-hominem.

Again just a big wall-of-text trying to "corner" me with a straw-man falacy.

You seem obsessed with refuting an argument I never did.

I'm running out of cookies.

[Knight.Anon]

She ported because the undead sucking the life out you something every glass cannon dreads. All they leave behind is empty glass.

[orrion]

What is this, contingency by association? We saw it once so now everybody has it and uses it?

Miron's spell was Contingency because he named it. Laurin's action can be better and more easily explained by her just using her turn to escape.

There's no reason to think she used Contingency except that we saw Miron use it.

[137beth]

Clearly, Laurin has been busy speedrunning Super Mario 64 and whipped out her secret Tiny-Huge Island strategy. It would've been more optimal to channel Tick Tock Clock and just freeze everyone in time, but hey. Maybe she hasn't mastered that level yet.
Bah, she's doing a pretty bad job of it...I mean, there was a big reptile with a tail, all she had to do was give it the ability to breathe fire and grab its tail and throw it into explosive runes and be done with it. Instead she had Miron Baleful Polymorph Bloodfeast Bowser and leave him on the ground.


Anyway, Laurin didn't shrink, she made everything else bigger.

Or maybe only dinosaurs can discern the true nature of the windy canyon, and she turned herself into a dinosaur, and now everything looks wrong to everyone else!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You seem obsessed with refuting an argument I never did.


if I were an epic level psion and I prepared a contingency spell to save my arse in case of trouble (like Miron did), I'd certainly prepare something that pulls me considerably more far than about 100 meters.

You made this argument. It relies on optimisation. My point stands.

GW

[Oryutzen]

That's not optimization. That's basic, common sense. The "if it were contingency it'd not be a mere 100 meter jump". You don't spend a crapload of gold into something without thinking it through really well, or at least not when you've got the intelligence Laurin has.

Some might argue it'd be wisdom that'd be needed in that one, but I'd say that wouldn't be her dump stat either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's not optimization. That's basic, common sense. The "if it were contingency it'd not be a mere 100 meter jump". You don't spend a crapload of gold into something without thinking it through really well, or at least not when you've got the intelligence Laurin has.

Laurin doesn't have large number of powers to choose from, like wizards or clerics. Instead, like sorcerers, she has a small number of powers she can use a lot of times. That means that it is not a given that she will have dimension door AND wormhole AND teleportation, nor is it a given that having all three is better than having only the two we know she has. Thus, it does not follow that she CANNOT have used contingency based on The Pilgrim's idea of what a high-level psion power selection should be (i.e. picking all three teleportation spells). There are arguments to be made as to why she didn't use contingency (can't be used with dimension door, it might be dangerous to do so, etc.) but this is not one of them.

I also explained a rational way in which Laurin's actions are objectively better than Miron upthread. I didn't restate it because it seems Pilgrim cannot handle long posts. But even if such rational explanation doesn't exist, so what? Characters are allowed to make bonehead decisions about character development. Laurin might just be a psion that skipped teleportation but did take dimension portal and contingency, and set up a contingency for what spell she did have, even if according to The Pilgrim's scale of spell usefulness, that is not as good a choice as he would have made.

Which is my point: any argument that starts with "if I was the character, I would not have done that" is by definition an optimisation argument, based on some ideal perfect set of choices the poster would have made that the character hasn't. And it is the wrong argument around these parts because the Giant has been very clear that OotS characters cannot be expected to make perfect decisions at every turn.

So any argument anchored on what choices a character should have made fails. The druid should have taken natural spell feat, but didn't. And according to The Pilgrim, Laurin should have taken teleport, if she also intended to use contingency. They are the same argument, and fail for the same reasons.

Grey Wolf

[Oryutzen]

Laurin doesn't have infinite number of powers, like wizards or clerics. Instead, like sorcerers, she has a small number of powers she can use a lot of times. That means that it is not a given that she will have dimension door AND wormhole AND teleportation, nor is it a given that having all three is better than having only the two we know she has. Thus, it does not follow that she CANNOT have used contingency based on The Pilgrim's idea of what a high-level psion power selection should be (i.e. picking all three teleportation spells). There are arguments to be made as to why she didn't use contingency (can't be used with dimension door, it might be dangerous to do so, etc.) but this is not one of them.

I don't see why she has to have all three. Wormhole for kilometric transport, DimDoor for short, emergency hops, and there, it's set. And I also don't know where did I mention she had to have all three. Tying DimDoor to Contingency would've been a bad move without even getting into optimization matters, though I will give that if she had only Teleport and Wormhole, she could well had used Teleport to go wherever Durkon wasn't grappling her, overkill as it might've been. Thing is, a Contingency would have had different conditions, as those conditions need to be planned a long time beforehand, and if there's something we can almost certainly say, it's that Laurin isn't stupid enough to blow a Contingency spell in something like "teleport 100 meters in this direction" without knowing when and where she'd need it.


Which is my point: any argument that starts with "if I was the character, I would not have done that" is by definition an optimisation argument, based on some ideal perfect set of choices the poster would have made that the character hasn't. And it is the wrong argument around these parts because the Giant has been very clear that OotS characters cannot be expected to make perfect decisions at every turn.

It's not necessarily an optimization argument. Most hypothesis here count on Laurin thinking in a certain way that doesn't require munchkinism, just the kind of mindset that can be expected of a psion that's made it this far. When started that way you mention, it's definitely optimization, I'll give you that, but it seldom starts that way.


So any argument anchored on what choices a character should have made fails. The druid should have taken natural spell feat, but didn't. And according to The Pilgrim, Laurin should have taken teleport, if she also intended to use contingency. They are the same argument, and fail for the same reasons.

Grey Wolf

The difference being, Leeky was a lot dumber than Laurin, and was at a much lower level. Laurin's made it further with a not-as-good class, so we can reasonably expect she's made better decisions.

[orrion]

The difference being, Leeky was a lot dumber than Laurin, and was at a much lower level. Laurin's made it further with a not-as-good class, so we can reasonably expect she's made better decisions.

On what basis are you saying that the Psion class is not as good as the Druid class?

Not sure I agree with the idea that she's made better decisions simply because she is higher level, either. Belkar is now higher than Leeky, and his decisions... yeah.

[Oryutzen]

On what basis are you saying that the Psion class is not as good as the Druid class?

Well, that's what I hear whenever tier lists are mentioned. Apparently the difference isn't that big, but it's there. Apparently Wild Shape + Animal Companion + Divine Spells beats the Psionic power system. I don't know myself, though, all the experience I have with D&D is playing NWN 1 and 2, which didn't have psions (and also shifted a lot of things around, making some classes much better and others worse). That, and reading around. As always, I might be wrong, though.


Not sure I agree with the idea that she's made better decisions simply because she is higher level, either. Belkar is now higher than Leeky, and his decisions... yeah.

...okay, I'll give you that. Still, Laurin doesn't seem like that, at least to me.

[MonochromeTiger]

Well, that's what I hear whenever tier lists are mentioned. Apparently the difference isn't that big, but it's there. I don't know myself, though, all the experience I have with D&D is playing NWN 1 and 2, which didn't have psions (and also shifted a lot of things around, making some classes much better and others worse). That, and reading around. As always, I might be wrong, though.

...how are they worse? psion focuses on psionic powers which are extremely similar to spells making them into a (slightly more flexible in my opinion) main caster, add in the fact that quite a few psionic powers need neither verbal nor somatic components or even have a visual display at all...if they're careful they can decimate a small group without anyone even realizing what they're doing... druid, heck even wizard and sorcerer, risk putting themselves in danger quite a bit more to achieve the same thing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't see why she has to have all three. Wormhole for kilometric transport, DimDoor for short, emergency hops, and there, it's set.
Indeed, that is my position as well.


And I also don't know where did I mention she had to have all three.
Are you The Pilgrim? Because my posts are against his argument.


Tying DimDoor to Contingency would've been a bad move without even getting into optimization matters,
Why? Why is it worse to jump out where you can reassess the situation and take further action than simply bail out on your team altogether?


if she had only Teleport and Wormhole, she could well had used Teleport to go wherever Durkon wasn't grappling her,
That's not how teleport works. The target is a location, not a relative position like "100 meters north". But even if it did, that does not address that Laurin might have used contingency.

As to the rest of the post, I don't know what your position actually is. Do you agree with The Pilgrim that Laurin, if she was being played by The Pilgrim, would never have used contingency: dimension door, and that such argument is definitive when talking about what Laurin, as written by The Giant, would have done?

GW

[Oryutzen]

...how are they worse? psion focuses on psionic powers which are extremely similar to spells making them into a (slightly more flexible in my opinion) main caster, add in the fact that quite a few psionic powers need neither verbal nor somatic components or even have a visual display at all...if they're careful they can decimate a small group without anyone even realizing what they're doing... druid, heck even wizard and sorcerer, risk putting themselves in danger quite a bit more to achieve the same thing.

Like I said, I'm not sure, I didn't make the tier lists and don't completely understand them. Still, I edited that post with some of the reasons I remember.

EDIT: To Wolf's post: No, I'm not him, but there were some points I thought I'd address, jumping away to reassess the situation's not as good when you decided the "Where to jump" back when you had no idea you'd get into that exact situation, I know Teleport needs a location but she might've looked to the side, said to herself "there" and 'ported to that place relatively quickly, and my position's that she wouldn't have used contingency, be it played by Pilgrim or be it played by Laurin herself.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

jumping away to reassess the situation's not as good when you decided the "Where to jump" back when you had no idea you'd get into that exact situation,

Why?


my position's that she wouldn't have used contingency

Why?

Grey Wolf

[Oryutzen]

Why?

Grey Wolf

Because Contingency needs you to decide every single detail about the spell when you're setting it up, and not when it's triggered. Including things like direction, place, and such. Thus, setting a condition that could personally screw you over in a good bunch of situations is a very bad idea, one that I don't think Laurin would've had. Miron screwed up his own in the way he abandoned his teammates, but in nearly all situations he'd have saved his own skin, which is what matters to him. In Laurin's case, setting a teleport to that exact place in the desert is spectacularly improbable, and setting a DimDoor in any direction would've backfired if she had been fighting inside a place with walls, or near the bottom of a cliff (and this is a canyon), as Dooring into a wall hurts like hell, IIRC.

[MonochromeTiger]

Because Contingency needs you to decide every single detail about the spell when you're setting it up, and not when it's triggered. Including things like direction, place, and such. Thus, setting a condition that could personally screw you over in a good bunch of situations is a very bad idea, one that I don't think Laurin would've had. Miron screwed up his own in the way he abandoned his teammates, but in nearly all situations he'd have saved his own skin, which is what matters to him. In Laurin's case, setting a teleport to that exact place in the desert is spectacularly improbable, and setting a DimDoor in any direction would've backfired if she had been fighting inside a place with walls, or near the bottom of a cliff (and this is a canyon), as Dooring into a wall hurts like hell, IIRC.

agreed, plus a contingency in that situation may be the worst thing to do even in a relatively empty flat environment as you may be porting away from the only person who can help you out instead of towards them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because Contingency needs you to decide every single detail about the spell when you're setting it up, and not when it's triggered. Including things like direction, place, and such. Thus, setting a condition that could personally screw you over in a good bunch of situations is a very bad idea,
And yet is better than not having the contingency at all. If all Laurin has to contingency for being drained of levels is dimension door, it is still much better than staying there. It doesn't need to be applicable to every case, just to the cases you contingency against. Even if that had sent her over a cliff, it is still miles better than being level drained.

Edit: In any case, this is still the argument "I think that the character would not made this decision, because I consider it the wrong decision". As I said, The Giant has been very clear that such arguments are quite wrong when it comes to his characters. We know absolutely nothing about Laurin's intelligence or wisdom, and thus you cannot use either to determine what decisions she would or would not make.


Miron screwed up his own in the way he abandoned his teammates, but in nearly all situations he'd have saved his own skin, which is what matters to him.

Irrelevant. Miron's priorities and Laurin's priorities are clearly different, and there is no reason for them to think alike. Miron set contingency for abandoning his team if he was hit hard enough. Laurin's priorities for contingency could be to get far enough she's out of level drain danger, but close enough she doesn't just abandon her team.

Grey Wolf

[MonochromeTiger]

And yet is better than not having the contingency at all. If all Laurin has to contingency for being drained of levels is dimension door, it is still much better than staying there. It doesn't need to be applicable to every case, just to the cases you contingency against. Even if that had sent her over a cliff, it is still miles better than being level drained.

Edit: In any case, this is still the argument "I think that the character would not made this decision, because I consider it the wrong decision". As I said, The Giant has been very clear that such arguments are quite wrong when it comes to his characters. We know absolutely nothing about Laurin's intelligence or wisdom, and thus you cannot use either to determine what decisions she would or would not make.



Grey Wolf

first part: if she's going to use a teleport as a contingency she'd be better served holding the power points for it until she needs to use the power than setting up specific conditions that may wind up with her in an even less favorable position than what she's running from. using your example of sending her over a cliff, sure that may be more favorable than level drain in your mind but what if at the edge of that cliff is yet another person with level drain, what if you're losing and have no power points left to fly from the cliff so you fall, take falling damage, then have to hope against hope itself that the enemy doesn't just search for you and finish you off. unless you have a VERY clearly defined safe place to teleport to making a conditional teleport spell is stupidly risky.

second part: and yet your argument is also one based on a risk/reward situation. also, this


Irrelevant. Miron's priorities and Laurin's priorities are clearly different, and there is no reason for them to think alike. Miron set contingency for abandoning his team if he was hit hard enough. Laurin's priorities for contingency could be to get far enough she's out of level drain danger, but close enough she doesn't just abandon her team.

[Oryutzen]

And yet is better than not having the contingency at all. If all Laurin has to contingency for being drained of levels is dimension door, it is still much better than staying there. It doesn't need to be applicable to every case, just to the cases you contingency against. Even if that had sent her over a cliff, it is still miles better than being level drained.

I...can't agree with that one. One, we don't know if Laurin fears level draining nearly as much to set up a contingency exclusively for it (this miiight fall within a certain definition of optimization, too). Two, I don't see how risking going off a cliff, or porting into a wall (and, considering how she lives in the desert, the only undead you'd find would be inside tombs, where there's enough walls to make an unaimed DimDoor a horribly painful affair), or simply just shifting blindly around, with a level or two drained is better than taking it and consciously going elsewhere with one of her other powers, or blasting the undead to pieces if she didn't have other power to send herself elsewhere.


Also, we know she's smart, because she's a psion, and casting high level powers needs high intelligence.


sure that may be more favorable than level drain in your mind but what if at the edge of that cliff is yet another person with level drain

Hell, even simpler than that: By these levels, you're playing against characters who like to throw Energy Drain around, a DimDoor won't help with that.

[Porthos]

I'll give you this much, GW, IF Laurin would be able to decide where to DD to when the Contingency went off, it's not that bad of an idea. Might be rather good actually, in most situations.

Problem is:


You can place another spell upon your person so that it comes into effect under some condition you dictate when casting contingency. The contingency spell and the companion spell are cast at the same time. The 10-minute casting time is the minimum total for both castings; if the companion spell has a casting time longer than 10 minutes, use that instead.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur. If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) may fail when called on. The companion spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

You can use only one contingency spell at a time; if a second is cast, the first one (if still active) is dispelled.

To me, since the spell is actually cast when you set up Contingency, you have to set the direction/distance/place near you then and there. That is, in my opinion, asking for trouble. :smallsmile:

The bigger problem for me here is the trigger. It can't be "I get attacked", since V attacked Laurin. I find it difficult to believe it would be "I get grappled" since she can just DD out on her next action and still attack by using the Move Action trick with DD. It could be "If I get negative levels", I suppose. But that's an awfully specific Contingency, IMO. Not a completely implausible one, I will agree. Just.... not very plausible. :smallsmile:

To put it another way, yes, it is theoretically possible for Laurin to have Contingencied her way out of this. But it seems to me that the much simpler explanation is that she said, "Nope. Psion." and ported a few yards away.

tl;dr

She could have theoretically used Contingency. But she wasn't required to, to do what we saw. And most of us tend to think that since it wasn't required AND there is a 'simpler, easier' explanation then we're going to go with that until The Giant gives us reason to reconsider. :smallsmile:

Everything else is just internet armchair arguing. :smalltongue:

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

I don't get why everyone is so hung up on Contingent Dimension Door being a stupid choice. For a primary spellcaster, Dimension Door contingent on being grappled is perfectly reasonable; besides the fact that something which breezed past Tarquin the tank to grab you isn't likely to let go any time soon, it also nips stuff like Swallow Whole in the bud. Maybe a DC 20+ power level check isn't too bad for her (though even a 15-20% chance of failure for higher level powers might be a bit much to stomach), but if she was, say, swallowed by a Purple Worm (CR 12), she'd have to make checks against DC 39 or 24, depending on DM ruling, (again up to a 15-20% chance of failure, depending on her concentration bonus) the first round, though it certainly drops to 24 the following round. Against other stuff that swallows whole like Neothelids or the Tarrasque or a Gibbering Orb, these DCs start to climb into the 40s under an uncharitable interpretation of continuous damage (i.e. it's not continuous if it hasn't been happening more than a round already). For scarier stuff like a Phaethon, now we're talking DCs in the 60s even under charitable interpretations. Even weaker monsters like a Tendriculos (CR 6) can force fortitude saves vs. paralysis, and some stuff like a Remorhaz has gizzard damage waaaaay out of proportion to its CR (average 49 before resistances on a CR 7).

Given how understandable it is that being grappled sucks, the only question there is whether you think Dimension Door has enough range to make you feel safe from being regrappled. Seems reasonable enough to me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

second part: and yet your argument is also one based on a risk/reward situation.

The difference is that I am not establishing a position, only denying one. I am not saying that Laurin did use contingency, only that just because The Pilgrim, or you, or anyone else would not have done so, that doesn't mean Laurin wouldn't have. That is not a good argument. Porthos' argument, and the argument up-thread saying that it might not even be possible to set up contingency: dimension door per RAW, are much better arguments.

GW

[Porthos]

The difference is that I am not establishing a position, only denying one. I am not saying that Laurin did use contingency, only that just because The Pilgrim, or you, or anyone else would not have done so, that doesn't mean Laurin wouldn't have.

GW

You can't prove a negative. :smallsmile:

So since we can't 'prove' anything one way or another, aren't we into the realm of 'more likely'?

As I just said in my summation in my last post, yes it is possible she used Contingency there. But it so so isn't required to describe what we saw. So why not go with a 'simplier' explanation until given reason to think otherwise?

[MonochromeTiger]

The difference is that I am not establishing a position, only denying one. I am not saying that Laurin did use contingency, only that just because The Pilgrim, or you, or anyone else would not have done so, that doesn't mean Laurin wouldn't have.

GW

your phrasing implied it was a tactical choice, and the second part I quoted from you actively phrased it as though you knew all the motivations miron and laurin have in the matter...right after you said it was foolish to say we know how the characters think. contradicting yourself is contradicting yourself even if you include a claim that it's somehow different because saying they won't NOT do something is in some way different from saying they will, can, or have.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You can't prove a negative. :smallsmile:

I know I can't. As you know from seeing me operate in the MitD thread, I am far more interested in defeating bad arguments than in attempting to establish anything. I am happy to accept "we don't know" as an answer.


As I just said in my summation in my last post, yes it is possible she used Contingency there. But it so so isn't required to describe what we saw. So why not go with a 'simplier' explanation until given reason to think otherwise?

And as I said in the edit, I can accept Okahm's Razor, and RAW arguments, and several others mentioned up thread. But not "that's not what I would have done if I was Laurin".

Grey Wolf

[Oryutzen]

I don't get why everyone is so hung up on Contingent Dimension Door being a stupid choice. For a primary spellcaster, Dimension Door contingent on being grappled is perfectly reasonable; besides the fact that something which breezed past Tarquin the tank to grab you isn't likely to let go any time soon, it also nips stuff like Swallow Whole in the bud. Maybe a DC 20+ power level check isn't too bad for her (though even a 15-20% chance of failure for higher level powers might be a bit much to stomach), but if she was, say, swallowed by a Purple Worm (CR 12), she'd have to make checks against DC 29 or 14, depending on DM ruling, (again up to a 15-20% chance of failure, depending on her concentration bonus) the first round, though it certainly drops to 14 the following round. Against other stuff that swallows whole like the Tarrasque or a Gibbering Orb, these DCs start to climb into the 30s under an uncharitable interpretation of continuous damage (i.e. it's not continuous if it hasn't been happening more than a round already).

Given how understandable it is that being grappled sucks, the only question there is whether you think Dimension Door has enough range to make you feel safe from being regrappled. Seems reasonable enough to me.

Mostly because a blind teleport can backfire really, really, REALLY horribly depending on where you are. Though the reasons you give definitely would start making the choice seem sound, in most cases it wouldn't be worth the risk to teleport without knowing where you're going, even at these levels. Getting eaten by an epic monster is one thing, getting grabbed by some random guy from a mob of ten that got past Tarquin because there were too many that time, not so much. And considering what these guys are doing, and usually do in their daily lives, the second one is much more likely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

your phrasing implied it was a tactical choice, and the second part I quoted from you actively phrased it as though you knew all the motivations miron and laurin have in the matter...right after you said it was foolish to say we know how the characters think. contradicting yourself is contradicting yourself even if you include a claim that it's somehow different because saying they won't NOT do something is in some way different from saying they will, can, or have.

No. I gave a plausible tactical scenario in which DD would be better to teleport, to illustrate my point. I did not claim it was the only possible valid scenario.

I also did not claim to know what anyone's motivations are, only that you can't base your arguments on your claims of knowledge of said motivations.

For me to contradict myself I would have needed to make a positive argument, which I haven't (other than the argument "you can't base your arguments on what you think a character should do", which I took from the Giant).

Grey Wolf

[Porthos]

And as I said in the edit, I can accept Okahm's Razor, and RAW arguments, and several others mentioned up thread. But not "that's not what I would have done if I was Laurin".

Grey Wolf

Fair enuf, and thanks for clarifying/calling attention to the edits. :smallsmile:

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Well, hold up a moment. I see no reason that a contingent dimension door has to be a blind teleport. The text reads:


Dimension Door (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm)

Psychoportation (Teleportation)
Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 4
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Power Resistance: No and Yes (object)
Power Points: 7

As the dimension door spell, except as noted here. [the only difference is augmentation to a move action -Whar]
and from the spell

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.

[stuff about bringing things/people with you]

[stuff about teleporting into occupied space].

Are you proposing that contingent powers must have every detail of their execution specified at the time the Contingency is manifested? The text of Psionic Contingency reads, "the [power is] “manifested” instantaneously only when the prescribed circumstances occur", which I read as prescribing only the circumstances of the contingency, not the effects of the power being manifested.

In any case, you could also easily get around that problem by specifying that your contingency is "Dimension Door 50 ft to my left if and only if I am being grappled and would prefer not to be grappled". This makes hugs safe.

Also, I did the math incorrectly in my first draft; all the DCs should have been 10 higher because they start at 10+ damage, not 0+damage. Corrected in the post as it appears now. Makes not getting grappled much more desirable.

[Oryutzen]

Well, hold up a moment. I see no reason that a contingent dimension door has to be a blind teleport. The text reads:


and from the spell


Are you proposing that contingent powers must have every detail of their execution specified at the time the Contingency is manifested? The text of Psionic Contingency reads, "the [power is] “manifested” instantaneously only when the prescribed circumstances occur", which I read as prescribing only the circumstances of the contingency, not the effects of the power being manifested.

In any case, you could also easily get around that problem by specifying that your contingency is "Dimension Door 50 ft to my left if and only if I am being grappled and would prefer not to be grappled". This makes hugs safe.

Still blind. You have no idea when's the next time you'll be grappled, or what will be 50 ft to your left when it happens. Imagine getting grappled while fighting in a tight cavern. 50 ft to your left is solid rock, so your best bet is getting jettisoned out elsewhere after a lot of pain. This also applies to almost any place with either lots of buildings, or big ones with lots of rooms.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

50 ft to your left is solid rock, so your best bet is getting jettisoned out elsewhere after a lot of pain. This also applies to almost any place with either lots of buildings, or big ones with lots of rooms.

I see I should have included the text about what happens if the space is occupied:


If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

There is literally no way to take more than d6 damage from a Dimension Door shorter than 100 feet, and even if you end up in the exact same space, they at least have to try to grapple you again. If you end up in another room, you are a psion, and can Dimension Door the next round back to a better tactical position than you were in before.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Still blind. You have no idea when's the next time you'll be grappled, or what will be 50 ft to your left when it happens. Imagine getting grappled while fighting in a tight cavern. 50 ft to your left is solid rock, so your best bet is getting jettisoned out elsewhere after a lot of pain. This also applies to almost any place with either lots of buildings, or big ones with lots of rooms.

"A lot of pain" happens to be 1d6 damage, unless 100 feet in every dimension is more rock, which would not be the case in any situation other than tight caves (and never if you set the contingency to less than 100 feet) - and even if it is so, it is a measly 2d6, and more travel 1000 feet in some direction.

So no, I reject your argument that it would be "a lot of pain"

GW

[Oryutzen]

I see I should have included the text about what happens if the space is occupied:


(EDIT:This also applies to Wolf's post)

There is literally no way to take more than d6 damage from a Dimension Door shorter than 100 feet, and even if you end up in the exact same space, they at least have to try to grapple you again. If you end up in another room, you are a psion, and can Dimension Door the next round back to a better tactical position than you were in before.

Sure, it'll just be 1d6. But it just became an absolutely random teleport, which can include the top of the room, the mob of mummies that was all the way over there, that pit trap you left back in the last room, the secret treasure room that can only be opened from the outside, right outside the window, twenty feet above a floor full of stalagmites, among others. So the pain could still come heavily, though not as much as I thought it'd be.

Admittedly, another DimDoor will usually fix that problem before it does anything too horrible, so I'll give you that. Still, it's a heavy gamble, but you did convince me it has validity.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Yeah, I'm not pretending that "RANDOM DIRECTION TELEPORT!" should become a regular tactic for anybody, just that it's generally preferable to being grappled by anything which could get close enough to lay a finger on her in the first place.

I'd also like to say that all the random direction stuff is for the sake of argument; my reading of Contingency is that you would get to pick the direction of the teleport as it manifests.

[Oryutzen]

Yeah, I'm not pretending that "RANDOM DIRECTION TELEPORT!" should become a regular tactic for anybody, just that it's generally preferable to being grappled by anything which could get close enough to lay a finger on her in the first place.

I'd also like to say that all the random direction stuff is for the sake of argument; my reading of Contingency is that you would get to pick the direction of the teleport as it manifests.

Mistakes can happen, but yeah, usually stuff that's grabbed the caster generally doesn't get to do it simply through terrific luck.

And interpretation's also a factor, and one that's usually the root of disagreements. Still, if one of the factors already comes pre-picked, that'll always cause trouble in one situation or another. In this case, mostly anything indoors.

Anyways, this argument seems to be over here, so I'll make my exit admitting I had more than a few things wrong.

[orrion]

I now want to be present in a DnD group where a caster prepares a Contingency Dimension Door and blinks himself over a hill in direction X, only for the GM to say "That hill was concealing a pit laced with numerous spikes with a lake of lava at the bottom" or a similar death trap just to punish the user.

I'd laugh for a week straight.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Man, deathtraps as punishment for a specific (and not particularly ironclad) defense setup which costs the player a little less than 1 xp per day she or he keeps it up? Harsh.

[Cavenskull]

...Are you proposing that contingent powers must have every detail of their execution specified at the time the Contingency is manifested? The text of Psionic Contingency reads, "the [power is] “manifested” instantaneously only when the prescribed circumstances occur", which I read as prescribing only the circumstances of the contingency, not the effects of the power being manifested...
The catch is that per the D20 rules, the Contingency power and its companion power are manifest at the same time. This is essentially identical to the Contingency spell, in which the Contingency spell and its companion spell are cast at the same time. This suggests that the companion power/spell has already been manifest/cast, and that the effect is being contained by the Contingency until the appropriate circumstances trigger Contingency to release the effect. While this may sound like a limitation, it can also work as a feature.

As an example, suppose a Contingency is set to trigger a Teleport when the person protected by Contingency takes severe damage. If the destination of the Teleport is chosen when the Contingency triggers, what happens if the person has been knocked unconscious when the Teleport is released? The person would be unable to choose the destination for the Teleport at exactly the point when it's needed most.

On the other hand, if the destination is set as part of the spell when Contingency is manifest/cast, this ensures that the Teleport has a destination to attempt to send the person to regardless of any status that may render the person unable to choose a destination for the Teleport.

[MonochromeTiger]

I now want to be present in a DnD group where a caster prepares a Contingency Dimension Door and blinks himself over a hill in direction X, only for the GM to say "That hill was concealing a pit laced with numerous spikes with a lake of lava at the bottom" or a similar death trap just to punish the user.

I'd laugh for a week straight.

been there, done that, put the caster skull on my tiger's collar cause my character hated them too much to waste a reincarnate.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

The catch is that per the D20 rules, the Contingency power and its companion power are manifest at the same time. This is essentially identical to the Contingency spell, in which the Contingency spell and its companion spell are cast at the same time. This suggests that the companion power/spell has already been manifest/cast, and that the effect is being contained by the Contingency until the appropriate circumstances trigger Contingency to release the effect. While this may sound like a limitation, it can also work as a feature.

As an example, suppose a Contingency is set to trigger a Teleport when the person protected by Contingency takes severe damage. If the destination of the Teleport is chosen when the Contingency triggers, what happens if the person has been knocked unconscious when the Teleport is released? The person would be unable to choose the destination for the Teleport at exactly the point when it's needed most.

On the other hand, if the destination is set as part of the spell when Contingency is manifest/cast, this ensures that the Teleport has a destination to attempt to send the person to regardless of any status that may render the person unable to choose a destination for the Teleport.
Okay, this doesn't appear to be in the SRD, but on page 174 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook, under "Casting Time", it reads:


You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area,
effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. For
example, when casting a summon monsterspell, you need not decide
where you want the monster to appear (or indeed, what monster you
are summoning) until the spell comes into effect in the round after
you begin casting.
A contingent spell does not come into effect until the contigency is triggered. I am not a hardass when DMing, so I'd probably let players pick either interpretation at the time they cast the contingency, but I think the RAW doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room.

Edit: Just looked it up in the Expanded Psionics Handbook; similar text appears there, in case anyone was wondering about the original topic of discussion. :P

[orrion]

Man, deathtraps as punishment for a specific (and not particularly ironclad) defense setup which costs the player a little less than 1 xp per day she or he keeps it up? Harsh.

Punishment for a terrible defensive setup.

I would be a vindictive DM, yes.

[rodneyAnonymous]

There is literally no way to take more than d6 damage from a Dimension Door shorter than 100 feet...

What if your destination is in the air over any kind of fall? Doesn't need to be a DM deathtrap, a defensive setup like that (contingencied dimension door) would rule out fighting anywhere high (castle ramparts, mountain ridges, Ewok villages...), and a lot of dungeon setups might have falls everywhere, even falling down a staircase could be Really Bad.

Edit: I think no, the contingency is cast after 10 minutes or more, and has a duration of 1 day/level. You must choose the details of the spell at the end of the 10-minute+ casting time, not when it is triggered. The destination "100 feet north of where-ever I am" is a valid choice, but a dumb one, IMO.

[Trillium]

What if your destination is in the air over any kind of fall? Doesn't need to be a DM deathtrap, a defensive setup like that (contingencied dimension door) would rule out fighting anywhere high (castle ramparts, mountain ridges, Ewok villages...), and a lot of dungeon setups might have falls everywhere, even falling down a staircase could be Really Bad.

Edit: I think no, the contingency is cast after 10 minutes or more, and has a duration of 1 day/level. You must choose the details of the spell at the end of the 10-minute+ casting time, not when it is triggered. The destination "100 feet north of where-ever I am" is a valid choice, but a dumb one, IMO.

100 feet in the direction I am facing is fine though. Though you must make exception in Contingency condition for being disabled and unable to turn.

[Oryutzen]

100 feet in the direction I am facing is fine though. Though you must make exception in Contingency condition for being disabled and unable to turn.

This might backfire if the grappler knocked the caster down first. Otherwise, with quick enough reflexes and some careful wording it might work.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's not optimization. That's basic, common sense. The "if it were contingency it'd not be a mere 100 meter jump". You don't spend a crapload of gold into something without thinking it through really well, or at least not when you've got the intelligence Laurin has.

Some might argue it'd be wisdom that'd be needed in that one, but I'd say that wouldn't be her dump stat either.


Well, that's what I hear whenever tier lists are mentioned. Apparently the difference isn't that big, but it's there. Apparently Wild Shape + Animal Companion + Divine Spells beats the Psionic power system. I don't know myself, though, all the experience I have with D&D is playing NWN 1 and 2, which didn't have psions (and also shifted a lot of things around, making some classes much better and others worse). That, and reading around. As always, I might be wrong, though.


Could you actually read the 3.5 Psionics rules before throwing out comments like this? Psionic Contingency doesn't have a Focus that costs 1,500 gp; it has a cost of 15 XP, plus the Power Point cost for Psionic Contingency and the Power chained to it.

The reason why Psions are ranked on a lower Tier than Wizards by some CharOp groups is that Psions have a limited number of Powers known, need to expend Psionic Focus to use their Psionic and Metapsionic feats, and have fewer splatbooks devoted to them, unlike Wizards. Otherwise Psions are more versatile than Wizards in many ways.

[Sir_Leorik]

I don't get why everyone is so hung up on Contingent Dimension Door being a stupid choice. For a primary spellcaster, <SNIP>

Laurin's not a typical primary spellcaster. She's a Psion, and Psionic Dimension Door lets her use it when grappled as a Move action without provoking AOO's. Therefore, Occam's Razor says that she did exactly that (after dropping the staff).

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Laurin's not a typical primary spellcaster. She's a Psion, and Psionic Dimension Door lets her use it when grappled as a Move action without provoking AOO's. Therefore, Occam's Razor says that she did exactly that (after dropping the staff).
Nowhere in the description of the Dimension Door augmentation does it say that you don't provoke AoO if you use it as a move action. Further, participants in a grapple don't threaten any squares anyway, and Dimension Door specifically forbids any further action until the next round, so the utility of augmenting to a move action if you're trying to escape a grapple is highly questionable unless you manifest a standard action power before the Dimension Door. Not sure we see any evidence of that.

[Oryutzen]

Could you actually read the 3.5 Psionics rules before throwing out comments like this? Psionic Contingency doesn't have a Focus that costs 1,500 gp; it has a cost of 15 XP, plus the Power Point cost for Psionic Contingency and the Power chained to it.

The reason why Psions are ranked on a lower Tier than Wizards by some CharOp groups is that Psions have a limited number of Powers known, need to expend Psionic Focus to use their Psionic and Metapsionic feats, and have fewer splatbooks devoted to them, unlike Wizards. Otherwise Psions are more versatile than Wizards in many ways.

Fine, my mistake, I had already said I had screwed up more than once, along with me not being that familiar with the rules (though I think that'd be an easy mistake to make). Also, the post addressed druids more than wizards, but that'd just be a detail.

[Sir_Leorik]

Nowhere in the description of the Dimension Door augmentation does it say that you don't provoke AoO if you use it as a move action. Further, participants in a grapple don't threaten any squares anyway, and Dimension Door specifically forbids any further action until the next round, so the utility of augmenting to a move action if you're trying to escape a grapple is highly questionable unless you manifest a standard action power before the Dimension Door. Not sure we see any evidence of that.

You're absolutely right. I was mistaking the augmentation of Psionic Dimension Door with the benefits of the Quicken Power metapsionic feat. Using Quicken Power (which costs 6 extra Power Points and expends Laurin's Psionic Focus) would let her manifest without provoking an AOO. Laurin could also make a Concentration check to manifest without provoking an AOO.

Long story, short, Laurin has a lot of ways of using Psionic Dimension Door to pop away from Durkon, without needing to rely on a Psionic Contingency.

EDIT:

Fine, my mistake, I had already said I had screwed up more than once, along with me not being that familiar with the rules (though I think that'd be an easy mistake to make). Also, the post addressed druids more than wizards, but that'd just be a detail.

Psions are designed to mix elements of Wizards and Sorcerers. They don't really compare to Clerics or Druids that well. It's a matter of comparing apples and hand grenades.

[Wharrrrrrgarbl]

Long story, short, Laurin has a lot of ways of using Psionic Dimension Door to pop away from Durkon, without needing to rely on a Psionic Contingency.
Absolutely. At the same time, I think it's perfectly plausible that she could have a Contingent Dimension Door hanging around in case she gets grappled by something scarier than a mid-high level vampire cleric.


Fine, my mistake, I had already said I had screwed up more than once, along with me not being that familiar with the rules (though I think that'd be an easy mistake to make). Also, the post addressed druids more than wizards, but that'd just be a detail.

I know I had to look up every single thing we've been talking about, so don't sweat it.

[Oryutzen]

Psions are designed to mix elements of Wizards and Sorcerers. They don't really compare to Clerics or Druids that well. It's a matter of comparing apples and hand grenades.

I'm aware of that, but the comparison popped up and I followed through. Still, being classes in the same game, comparisons are bound to be made at one point or another.


I know I had to look up every single thing we've been talking about, so don't sweat it.


And that's why you were right. Going off by memory was not the best of ideas.

[Snails]

The common practice with Contingency is that all decisions are made when the Contingency itself is cast. Admittedly, the rules are less than perfectly clear on this point.

It is a question of consistency. It seems like the intent of the spell is to be useful even when the caster is unconscious, or similarly disabled. But what if it is Contingency + Teleport, does the spell simply fail?

IF last moment decisions can be made about the linked spell, then many spells combos like Contingency + Teleport will outright fail when the caster is unconscious, and all benefits will be lost.

IF all decisions are made beforehand, then the DM can easily adjudicate what happens when an unconscious (or otherwise unaware) spell caster has a Contingency. This is also more fun, because the Contingency may do something the PC did not anticipate.

The second is easier on the DM, and for the PC it is six of one, half dozen of the other.

BTW, we absolutely know which ruling the Giant is using: look at what happened to Miron. If Miron were allowed to make a last moment targeting of his Contingency, he could have teleported 50 feet instead of completely away from the combat, or Tarquin would have ordered he to teleport right next to him where he could be protected.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Why would Laurin have Teleport? Maybe she didn't go down the Nomad route (so she can't have it, although Wormhole would probably fit into that domain), or maybe she opted for other powers when she levelled up, leaving DD as her escape route (or to just DD straight past an enemy group and take out/lock down support casters/archers) and let Miron take care of the parties teleportation.

Only when Team Tarquin got close to the level they're now at, formed the plan and separated from each other to shadow rule the continent (I doubt they've levelled up much since then), and a requirement to move large armies/long distances came into the equation, did Wormhole seem like a good idea. Which, except for the (almost certain, as we know nothing about the costing of Wormhole) lower PP cost, makes Teleport effectively obsolete for her.

As for contingency, triggered on level drain is a very specific clause which would be a waste of the contingency in most situations (unless she's been scared Malack was going to pop in for a drink), and on grappled would have likely had her popping out before the level drain hit. I'd say she manifested it as her action.

And frankly, apart from Miron having used one, there's absolutely no reason to assume that Laurin has a contingency prepared. And there's not much more reason to assume she ever took Contingency in the first place.

[ReaderAt2046]

Edit: In any case, this is still the argument "I think that the character would not made this decision, because I consider it the wrong decision". As I said, The Giant has been very clear that such arguments are quite wrong when it comes to his characters. We know absolutely nothing about Laurin's intelligence or wisdom, and thus you cannot use either to determine what decisions she would or would not make.


Grey Wolf

Actually, we know Laurin has at least 16 INT because you need at least that to cast Disintegrate.

[SlashDash]

Why would Laurin have Teleport? Maybe she didn't go down the Nomad route (so she can't have it, although Wormhole would probably fit into that domain)


There's a feat that lets you add a power to your list.

[Pigkappa]

Is anyone expert on the Psionic rules able to tell whether she is running out of points?

[Kish]

Is anyone expert on the Psionic rules able to tell whether she is running out of points?
She isn't. At bare minimum she would have to have started with around 250; her free use of wormholes, each likely costing her 17 points, put a significant dent in that, but she's likely still got at least a hundred left.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

There's a feat that lets you add a power to your list.
And she's probably only taken four bonus feats (assuming Laurin isn't epic, if she is, she gets one more), two of which, had she taken Expanded Knowledge, wouldn't let her take teleport anyway because she was too low a level at the time, and one of which (her first level feat) wouldn't allow her to take it anyway.

And if she is epic, she's probably got Wormhole when that last non-epic bonus feat comes available - so again, there's no reason to assume she has taken Teleport.

If she does use it, then fine, she has it, and we need to find another reason as to why she didn't use it before. Until then, chances are she didn't bother with it in the first place, letting Miron do the long haul flying, and taking other powers and feats that complement how the group work together.

[Dracon1us]

woman issue