[3.X] Spells that are broken for their level.

[Yael]

So, as the title says, which spells are broken for the level they are, why they are broken and which spells could go higher or lower?

I personally think that Disintegrate should be higher, as Baleful Polimorph should be exchanged with Polimorph~~

[Deophaun]

Wall of gloom is too high, being little better (and often worse) than wall of smoke. I think parts of the spell accidentally got left out when it was copied from Complete Arcane, where it actually had a fear effect that made it worth the level 2 slot. So, I house rule the CAr version to be the correct one.

[Big Fau]

Disintegrate is where it should be.

Web, Grease, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics, and Alter Self are all too good.

On the other side of the coin, Burning Hands is utter trash.

[anacalgion]

Power word pain. How that managed to be a first level spell I do not know.

[ryu]

Power word pain. How that managed to be a first level spell I do not know.

Consolation for how terrible enchantment in general is?

[Captnq]

Go to The Spellbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5044.msg72093#msg72093).

Any spell that is purple is most likely too powerful for it's level. Anything Orange is too weak.

[Zanos]

I personally think that Disintegrate should be higher, as Baleful Polimorph should be exchanged with Polimorph~~
I disagree. Disintegrate is a fort save or take a large amount of damage. Fort tends to be the highest enemy save and the damage isn't high enough to one shot anything. Most high level fort negate spells are fort save or die, not fort save or take high damage.

Disintegrate is a great hail marry since pretty much nothing is immune to it, and it is very effective against undead and constructs.

Polymorph is just too good in general. Baleful Polymorph should probably be moved up a level since it's fort save or lose and preserves gear, as opposed to flesh to stone, which is level six.

Now that I'm done whining:
Power Word Pain is just leveled incorrectly. Wings of Flurry should probably be fifth of sixth level for doing uncapped force damage. Dalamar's Lightning Lance should probably be an 8th level spell. Meteor Swarm does the most commonly resisted damage type several times over, amplifying fire resistance. I'd knock it down to seventh, probably. Ray of Stupidity should be fourth level for invalidating the existence of anything of the animal type. Heart of Water should be knocked up to level five for giving swift action access to an effect that isn't on the wizard spell list.

[Vedhin]

Meteor Swarm does the most commonly resisted damage type several times over, amplifying fire resistance. I'd knock it down to seventh, probably.

Wrong!
Note the first sentence of Resistance to Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy)



A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity.

[Zanos]

Wrong!
Note the first sentence of Resistance to Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy)
Thanks, I'm going to prepare scorching ray next session. :smallwink:

[Vedhin]

Thanks, I'm going to prepare scorching ray next session. :smallwink:

The misconception comes from Rings of Energy Resistance, which do work per attack, not per round.

[olentu]

Wrong!
Note the first sentence of Resistance to Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy)

The SRD has two versions of resistance to energy, the one you presented and this one

"Resistance to Energy (Ex): A creature with this special quality ignores some damage of the indicated type each time it takes damage of that kind (commonly acid, cold, fire, or electricity). The entry indicates the amount and type of damage ignored."

Which matches the monster manual entry for resistance to energy as well as the rules compendium one. You seem to be looking at the DMG version of resistance to energy. The MM/RC version has priority.

Edit: Actually, now that I look at it, the DMG version can be reasonably construed to be in agreement with the others, it is just that the translation from DMG to SRD stripped out important clarifying text in the form of an example.

[TuggyNE]

Wrong!
Note the first sentence of Resistance to Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#resistanceToEnergy)

For completeness, note that even if a monster's natural resistance to fire only applies once per round (which may or may not be the case, as noted), resistance from spells certainly is not thus limited. So meteor swarm is demonstrably weaker because of that, and the only question is whether it's crippling on most foes, or only moderately-well-prepared ones.

[Tve]

Let's see..

Combust (the SC version) seem very much out of line with general design of spells. Its a 2nd level Evocation, capped at 10d8, with a reflex save not to catch on fire (but not save for half).
The spell is in and of itself not really that overwhelming (considering the Orbs or other damage dealing Conjurations), but it does not seem very streamlined with the rest of its Evocation brothers and sisters..

Shivering Touch (Its Cold Outside) is just bongos. 3d6 Dex damage with no save, is waaaay better then what should be allowed for a 3rd level spell.

Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHBII) also seem like it's to strong for a 2nd level spell.

While in PHBII, Legion of Sentinels is another honorable mention of spells that seem to good for their level. With a little creative thinking, it absolutely wrecks encounters for a 5th level party.

Last, but not least I've always personally thought that Incendiary Cloud and Cloudkill should swap levels.

[Devronq]

Streamers all the way. Its way to low of a level. (Go look it up if you don't know what it was.) Even if it was a luv.9 spell of would still be the best blasting spell out there.

PS. Yes I know blasting.isn't the best thing a wizard can do but its still far superior that other direct damage spells.

[137beth]

Power word: Kill.

Seriously, an even lower cap that PW stun and PW blind?

[Evandar]

Power word pain. How that managed to be a first level spell I do not know.

Oh holy what. That spell is obscene for a 1st level slot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Power word: Kill.

Seriously, an even lower cap that PW stun and PW blind?

That lower HP cap means that the target has to be of either a drastically lower level or significantly injured all ready. Remember that the target has to have less than the given value. Lower means harder to deliver.

[Chronos]

Devronq, Streamers does a maximum of 20d10 (and that at 18th level), total divided between all targets, and requires an attack roll that doesn't even get most of your bonuses on attack rolls, and can be easily negated by any ally of your target. At lower levels, it's a lot worse than that: When you first get access to it, it does less damage than good old Fireball.

[Hamste]

20d10 and it is great for interrupts. No save, no Sr and if you miss one turn it is still there being annoying for next turn. People can get rid of the but it would take their turn and still risk attacks from them. It also has the bonus of always activating when a wizard casts a spell.

[eggynack]

That lower HP cap means that the target has to be of either a drastically lower level or significantly injured all ready. Remember that the target has to have less than the given value. Lower means harder to deliver.
I think that's what he's saying. The spell is broken, as in highly over-leveled. That spell wouldn't even be overpowered if it lacked an HP cap altogether.

[Scow2]

I think that's what he's saying. The spell is broken, as in highly over-leveled. That spell wouldn't even be overpowered if it lacked an HP cap altogether.At least Power Word: Blind and Power Word: Stun still leave the targets up and fighting.

[Diarmuid]

Wings of Cover is too good for its level, possibly too good in general.

Ebon Eyes, at 10 min/lvl and 1st level seems like it is too powerful.

[Phelix-Mu]

Venomfire. Please, someone, rewrite that spell. We don't need more reasons for more DMs to ban druids.

The older version of wave of green slime seemed a bit OP, but they cleaned it up, IIRC.

Touch of Jubilex, was it? Yeah, well, I suppose it is BoVD, so quality/power levels were terribly out-of-whack for that. And it is corrupt, but there are all kinds of tricks to help deal with that. But level 3 save or die in 4 rounds? There's some caveats, but, on principle, I'm not a fan of level 3 save or dies.

[Brookshw]

Avasculate (probably misspelling it) and its mass version. They're just freaking powerful at any level.

[Phelix-Mu]

Avasculate (probably misspelling it) and its mass version. They're just freaking powerful at any level.

I believe that spelling is correct, actually. I always liked the normal version better than the mass version, for some reason.

Blood snow, from Frostburn. Way too low level, especially once making snow becomes trivial (and it already is kind of trivial in certain settings/times of year).

[ryu]

I believe that spelling is correct, actually. I always liked the normal version better than the mass version, for some reason.

Blood snow, from Frostburn. Way too low level, especially once making snow becomes trivial (and it already is kind of trivial in certain settings/times of year).

Always trivial. Snow has no cost and thus you have an infinite supply in your component pouch.

[Devronq]

20d10 and it is great for interrupts. No save, no Sr and if you miss one turn it is still there being annoying for next turn. People can get rid of the but it would take their turn and still risk attacks from them. It also has the bonus of always activating when a wizard casts a spell.

This and keep in.mind it attacks per action you take. Theoreticaly if someone were stupid enough to lets say take a move standard and swift action in the same turn the get hit 3 times.

Edit: also you said if you miss one turn its still there, you do know its still there regardless right? It has a duration and it will keep attacking until its duration is over it doesn't end when it makes an attack. Which is another reason its soo ridiculous it be more fair I'd it did disappear when it hit.
Also this duration means is superior to fireball at any level. Would you rather have 10d6 once with a save and sr or 5d10 for a duration every time they take an action?

[Incanur]

Venomfire. Please, someone, rewrite that spell. We don't need more reasons for more DMs to ban druids.

Aw, how else are druids supposed to deal as much damage as pouncing barbarians? :smallwink:

[Phelix-Mu]

Aw, how else are druids supposed to deal as much damage as pouncing barbarians? :smallwink:

In a particularly out-of-control epic battle, my druid recruited some ti-khana hydras from some yuan-ti allies. Well, let's just say venomfire and hydras was a potent combination. With a nifty rod of energy substitution[fire], this was big-time effective against the massive hordes of CR16+ enemies. Ah, good times.

[Hamste]

Ah, I misread it as any successful attack from the streamers destroys them not any attack that hits them destroys it. That is even better, one of the greatest wizard killers I have seen.

[Deox]

I would say Hunter's Mercy (1st Ranger), but bows need much love.

[Venger]

Power word pain. How that managed to be a first level spell I do not know.

my theory is that the level of power word pain was accidentally switched with power word distract, a 4th that... makes a foe flat-footed until its next turn.

as far as contributions go, probably ray of stupidity despite (or probably because of) how much I love it. oneshots a hell of a lot of encounters.

[Incanur]

Ray of stupidity is, well, downright stupid. The only good thing about the spell is that it makes enchantment more attractive. But big dumb monsters have a hard enough time as it is.

[TuggyNE]

I would say Hunter's Mercy (1st Ranger), but bows need much love.

It's still broken, because Archivist.

[koboldish]

I know it depends a lot on the DM, but I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned prestidigitation.

[Incanur]

Entangle is nuts, though it doesn't work in some environments.

[eggynack]

Entangle is nuts, though it doesn't work in some environments.
Indeed, and the same is true of impeding stones. Impeding stones might even make for a better spell in a good number of situations. Honestly, they'd still probably be the best BFC's of their level if they were second level spells, and they're even reasonably competitive with the third level options. Sleet storm, stone shape, and plant growth make for reasonable spells too, but they're nowhere near strictly better.

[Thanatosia]

Power Word Pain is kinda strong looking, but it's really only OP in the hands of a DM casting it on a low level PC. It is sort of a death sentance to a low hp creature, but it takes so long to kill that it's highly impractical in almost any situation.

[Devronq]

Ah, I misread it as any successful attack from the streamers destroys them not any attack that hits them destroys it. That is even better, one of the greatest wizard killers I have seen.

Yes I misread it in the same fashion and someone corrected me on a similar thread.

[Devronq]

I know it depends a lot on the DM, but I'm kind of surprised no one has mentioned prestidigitation.

I'd say that its extremely useful but not really broken.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Let's see what we've got here...
Underpowered: Dinosaur Stampede (SpC): Let's see here, 1d12+CL (max 20) of Force damage in a 20ft radius that can move (as a free action) up to 40ft a round. Level 6 Druid spell, you say. Yeah, NO.
Underpowered: Protection from Charm (CAr): A bonus to your saves versus Enchantment (charms) equal to 1/3 CL, max +5. A Wu Jen 2 spell. I mean, I wouldn't even give this thing a 1st level slot.
Underpowered: Emerald Flame Fist (SpC): Not worth a 7th (!) level slot.

[Venger]

you want to talk underpowered?

tragically, you've beaten me to dinosaur stampede, a tragically worthless (but hilarious) spell so I'll counter with something else on the druid list that's arguably much worse:

Freeze. So: Drd 6 medium range, ray, allows sr.

reasonable so far
duration is 1 rd/2 levels? must be a pretty strong effect
ref partial; see text

that doesn't sound good

hit with the ray, deal 2d6 (!) cold damage. ref save or be frozen in a block of ice and immobilized (a real condition thanks to shadowcaster) and halpless as well. take another 2d6 cold damage per round he stays in the ice.

okay, you're thinking. sort of sucks. but at least while they're in the ice, they'll suffocate, so it's kind of like a weaker sarcophagus of stone, right?

NOPE! they can apparently breathe just fine (somehow) and are also aware of their surroundings. they can't speak, but can execute purely mental actions, like psionic dimdoor or abrupt jaunt, giving them their FOURTH way out of this spell (after ray, SR, and ref save to negate the freezing)

and yet, the spell isn't done hamstringing itself yet. somehow.

as if this weren't enough, it doesn't actually force spellcasters to make a concentration check. they can cast stuff without verbal/somatic as long as there's nomaterial or they're holding it in-hand.

the ice also blocks LoE, so you and your allies can't even beat the tar out of the target once you've frozen him.

while it does freeze fliers' wings (those that fly with wings anyway) you'll soon wish it hadn't. also it makes creatures that are swimming float to the top (doesn't provide a rate of ascent though, so have fun with that if you use this dumb spell during undersea combat)

the str DC to break out of the ice (yeah they get one of those too) is a measly 22, way the hell too low to challenge anything that you're going to want to stop in its tracks at CR 11+.

the ice is also vulnerable to mundane attacks with hardness 0 and 15 HP! it's somehow not only magical ice, but it's weaker than normal ice. either that, or the "block" of ice you freeze your enemy in is only 5 inches thick.

when the duration of the spell (remember: 1 round/2 lvls) expires, the ice doesn't even persist to melt normally, it just all magically disintegrates like a video game, leaving your target completely unpenalized without a penalty to dex, atk, speed, or anything.

also, if you want to actually bonk the guy in the ice (since, remember, you're not allowed to target him with spells!) you've got to go through the ice first.

Really.

as if this weren't bad enough, the damage that you deal to the ice (which is only 15hp) is taken off the total that the enemy takes.

I am comfortable saying that for its level, this is the worst spell in the game.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Really, Venger, you're missing the point. It's a personal buff spell; I mean, to break LoE while still being able to cast is pretty awesome.

[Vedhin]

I am comfortable saying that for its level, this is the worst spell in the game.

Death Throes has you beat. It causes you to explode upon death, dealing 1d8/level damage in a 30ft radius. You require a True Resurrection or similar to be brought back. Not that your allies will want to supply that after you blew them up.

And what level is this spell? 5th level Cleric, or Sorcerer/Wizard.

I mean, if it was low level a BBEG could have a bunch of mooks cast it and suicide bomb the party. But nothing that casts 5th level spells would prepare this over something that gives it a better chance of winning.

[Venger]

Death Throes has you beat. It causes you to explode upon death, dealing 1d8/level damage in a 30ft radius. You require a True Resurrection or similar to be brought back. Not that your allies will want to supply that after you blew them up.

And what level is this spell? 5th level Cleric, or Sorcerer/Wizard.

I mean, if it was low level a BBEG could have a bunch of mooks cast it and suicide bomb the party. But nothing that casts 5th level spells would prepare this over something that gives it a better chance of winning.

While, alone, death throes is sort of a worthless spell, it can become pretty neat with pact of return (a cleric 7th) also on the spite domain with "killed by my death throes" specified as the method of dispatch. turn yourself from a suicide bomber into the human bomb.

freeze has no such companion spell.

[Vedhin]

While, alone, death throes is sort of a worthless spell, it can become pretty neat with pact of return (a cleric 7th) also on the spite domain with "killed by my death throes" specified as the method of dispatch. turn yourself from a suicide bomber into the human bomb.

Death Throes triggers upon your death. It doesn't kill you, it just destroys your body.

[Phelix-Mu]

On the issue of underpowered spells, particularly those on the druid spell list, maybe someone could explain repel metal or stone to me. Of course, it's no save/no SR, but still...8th level? I mean, it sounds useful in some situations...odd area for an abjuration, but still useful. But I would like more than "sometimes okay" from an 8th level spell.

[Irk]

Arcane fusion line
If you're a blaster (don't be) this is hands down the best: orb spell + true strike

Celerity line
Dazing from clelerity? pffft, lesser dragonmark _ mark of the dauntless makes that issue go bye-bye.

[TypoNinja]

Grease. Oh Holy God Grease.

I love it. Its my favorite crowd control. When is grease not a good option? And rods of shape spell are so cheap!

Reflex save, something that the bruiser types usually suck at, or be prone.

Even if they make the save its a balance check to move through the grease (at half speed!). Fail the check and no movement, fail by enough and fall over again!

How is this only a first level spell? Its amazing. I'd take it at third!

[Rubik]

Grease. Oh Holy God Grease.

I love it. Its my favorite crowd control. When is grease not a good option? And rods of shape spell are so cheap!

Reflex save, something that the bruiser types usually suck at, or be prone.

Even if they make the save its a balance check to move through the grease (at half speed!). Fail the check and no movement, fail by enough and fall over again!

How is this only a first level spell? Its amazing. I'd take it at third!Note that it can seriously screw epic level golems, if they can't fly. In fact, it can screw just about anything that can't fly, and lots of things that can, assuming they wield manufactured weaponry.

[Deophaun]

Want to destroy a castle at level 3? Be a druid. Cast rockburst. Technically, you could destroy the planet with it.

[Irk]

Want to destroy a castle at level 3? Be a druid. Cast rockburst. Technically, you could destroy the planet with it.

wait, your right! How has no one ever mentioned this! you could destroy the entire planet and it would only be a 20 ft radius burst!
This is sooo poorly written!

[TypoNinja]

Want to destroy a castle at level 3? Be a druid. Cast rockburst. Technically, you could destroy the planet with it.

20 foot radius burst, of no SR no Save.

No weight limit like shatter. Oh and medium range.

Druid 2.

Do... do they not actually play the game they design spells for? I could conquer planets with this.

[ryu]

wait, your right! How has no one ever mentioned this! you could destroy the entire planet and it would only be a 20 ft radius burst!
This is sooo poorly written!

And to think all you need is a warblade to put an end to that pesky sun.

[Telok]

Grease. Oh Holy God Grease.
Even if they make the save its a balance check to move through the grease (at half speed!). Fail the check and no movement, fail by enough and fall over again!

Do note that the spell will only cover a 10*10 area at close range. It's a good spell but easy to escape from. You can legitimately grab the ground outside the area of effect and drag yourself out. It's when you start adding Shape or Widen metamagics that it's really good, but those increase the spell level (not all casters do metamagic reduction cheese).

Matter Manipulation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterManipulation.htm): A really pathetic 8th level psychic power that costs up to 1250 XP to give an inanimate object +/- 5 hardness and 15 hp/inch.

Seriously, Bend Reality is also 8th level and it's only 300 xp for being Psionic Limited Wish.

[Venger]

20 foot radius burst, of no SR no Save.

No weight limit like shatter. Oh and medium range.

Druid 2.

Do... do they not actually play the game they design spells for? I could conquer planets with this.

No, they do not. This is common knowledge. When playtesting early 3.5, they played only to low-mid levels (10-12ish) and testers simply neglected to use most of their features. the sample druid, for example, didn't wild shape because her player didn't want to do the bookkeeping, leading to them not knowing that giving 9ths AND wild shape AND a free cohort was a balance problem.

as far as new spls go, those aren't really tested at all. it's why we're able to make threads like this essentially at-will.

speaking of at-will, psionic lion's charge. don't have pounce? well now you do. forever.

[Vedhin]

On the issue of underpowered spells, particularly those on the druid spell list, maybe someone could explain repel metal or stone to me. Of course, it's no save/no SR, but still...8th level? I mean, it sounds useful in some situations...odd area for an abjuration, but still useful. But I would like more than "sometimes okay" from an 8th level spell.

Give it to someone creative. They will start toppling castles and sending the planet spiraling into the sun.


the sample druid, for example, didn't wild shape because her player didn't want to do the bookkeeping, leading to them not knowing that giving 9ths AND wild shape AND a free cohort was a balance problem.

I have no words for this. They got paid for not doing what they were supposed to be doing?:smallfurious:



speaking of at-will, psionic lion's charge. don't have pounce? well now you do. forever.

Also read the augmentation line carefully. The damage bonus is equal to additional power points^2. So an 8th level manifester can get 25 points of bonus damage.

[Venger]

I have no words for this. They got paid for not doing what they were supposed to be doing?:smallfurious:

Yep! This is why people complain about 3.5's "playtesting" so often.



Also read the augmentation line carefully. The damage bonus is equal to additional power points^2. So an 8th level manifester can get 25 points of bonus damage.

my copy of the xph says the bonus is only equal to the number of PP spent. are you looking it up elsewhere?

I was referring to the duration, which is instantaneous.

While all melee characters need pounce in order to even pretend to be relevant, and giving it to them for the cost of a power stone is completely reasonable, I can see some people saying that since it likely wasn't RAI that it's broken.

[Vedhin]

my copy of the xph says the bonus is only equal to the number of PP spent. are you looking it up elsewhere?

According to the SRD I'm using:


For every additional power point you spend, each of your attacks after a charge in the current round gains a circumstance bonus on damage equal to the number of additional points spent.

Each power point gives you a damage bonus equal to points spent. 1 gives you one, 2 gives you 4, 3 gives you 9, and so on.



I was referring to the duration, which is instantaneous.

While all melee characters need pounce in order to even pretend to be relevant, and giving it to them for the cost of a power stone is completely reasonable, I can see some people saying that since it likely wasn't RAI that it's broken.

I know. It's just a really poorly written power. And the power stone things is a good idea.

[Scow2]

speaking of at-will, psionic lion's charge. don't have pounce? well now you do. forever.
That is not how the spell works. Improper spell readings shouldn't count. This is a broken spells thread, not the Reading Comprehension Failure Pedantic Nitpicking Dysfunctional Rules thread.

It's instantaneous, not permanent. In order to use the spell at all, you have to charge, then manifest the power as a swift action, then attack during the instantaneous duration. Instantaneous is the only duration it can have - if it were One Round, it would also apply to attacks made the next round. It comes and goes in the time after your turn starts and before it ends.

[Vedhin]

It's instantaneous, not permanent.

This is why it lasts forever. You instantaneously gain the ability. It's the same rule that makes fireball damage last until healed, not disappear instantly.

While on the subject, Opalescent Glare gives you a gaze attack forever. Evil things must save or die/be panicked.

[Rubik]

As said, "Instantaneous" is the only duration PLC can have, since nothing else would work, and it's "Instantaneous" in the way a Fireball, Hustle, and Orb of Force are. It's not the author of the power's fault that WotC decided to use "Instantaneous" for both "Permanent But Nondispellable" and "There And Gone In An Instant."

It'd be as you say if the power said it gave you the "Pounce" ability, but it doesn't. It says it allows you to make a full attack during the same round as a charge.

Anyway, the really good part about PLC is that the full attack is in addition to the attack made on a charge, and the power doesn't specify when you take your full attack during the round. Full attack on an enemy within reach, then charge? Sure. Take your full attack in the middle of your movement, then finish off the charge? Yes! Take it at the end of the charge against one enemy, then make the attack against the other enemy you were actually charging? Definitely.

[Vedhin]

As said, "Instantaneous" is the only duration PLC can have, since nothing else would work, and it's "Instantaneous" in the way a Fireball, Hustle, and Orb of Force are. It's not the author of the power's fault that WotC decided to use "Instantaneous" for both "Permanent But Nondispellable" and "There And Gone In An Instant."

Anyway, the really good part about PLC is that the full attack is in addition to the attack made on a charge, and the power doesn't specify when you take your full attack during the round. Full attack on an enemy within reach, then charge? Sure. Take your full attack in the middle of your movement, then finish off the charge? Yes! Take it at the end of the charge against one enemy, then make the attack against the other enemy you were actually charging? Definitely.

Awright, quadruple dysfunction! Lasts forever, damage bonus scales exponetially, extra full attack, and full attack at any time in the round.

[Venger]

According to the SRD I'm using:



Each power point gives you a damage bonus equal to points spent. 1 gives you one, 2 gives you 4, 3 gives you 9, and so on.

I don't... think that's how it works.



I know. It's just a really poorly written power. And the power stone things is a good idea.
melee has to have nice things somehow.



Anyway, the really good part about PLC is that the full attack is in addition to the attack made on a charge, and the power doesn't specify when you take your full attack during the round. Full attack on an enemy within reach, then charge? Sure. Take your full attack in the middle of your movement, then finish off the charge? Yes! Take it at the end of the charge against one enemy, then make the attack against the other enemy you were actually charging? Definitely.
that's pretty good. not sure if it balances out the spell bafflingly counting as a quickened power for no darn reason. then again, you'll only ever need to manifest it once, so ti's not that big a deal.

[Rubik]

Awright, quadruple dysfunction! Lasts forever, damage bonus scales exponetially, extra full attack, and full attack at any time in the round.No. Check the post again for the edit.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Rubik, instantaneous is -not- the only duration that would've worked. Duration: see text. Add to the description "this power lasts from the time it is manifest until the charge is resolved or until the end of the manifester's turn."

[Rubik]

Rubik, instantaneous is -not- the only duration that would've worked. Duration: see text. Add to the description "this power lasts from the time it is manifest until the charge is resolved or until the end of the manifester's turn."There is that. But Instantaneous works just as well, since it immediately grants you a full attack action but does not simply grant you the Pounce ability.

But you're right. It could've and should've used "see text," but it didn't, and it's functional as is.

[Scow2]

Rubik, instantaneous is -not- the only duration that would've worked. Duration: see text. Add to the description "this power lasts from the time it is manifest until the charge is resolved or until the end of the manifester's turn."

That is an obnoxiously wordy and completely unnecessary duration.

Instantaneous spells are there-and-gone in an instant, always. Some instantaneous spells happen to have secondary effects that last longer than the moment of the spell, but those are the exception.

The spell description is the primary source for discerning what a spell does, not the spell's statblock.

Was the XPH published before or after the Miniatures Handbook? It doesn't mention anything about counting as a quickened power in the SRD. It likely counts as a quickened spell because it was a Swift Action before Swift Actions were a thing.

[Ruethgar]

Creeping Cold, mostly broken because it can be persisted if you are stubborn enough to pull it off. Ever increasing damage per round for a day makes dispell a must have. You could also just extend it and it would be pretty good still.

[Venger]

Was the XPH published before or after the Miniatures Handbook? It doesn't mention anything about counting as a quickened power in the SRD. It likely counts as a quickened spell because it was a Swift Action before Swift Actions were a thing.

XPH was published after miniatures handbook.

I guess it must've been errated or something. It mentions it counting as quickened in XPH, and is specified as a swift. it's clearly not necessary as a balancing factor. glad they excised it.

[Dr. Cliché]

Can I add Blight to this list, or is there some super use for it that I'm unaware of?

I guess for a Lv5 spell I'd want something more than blighting a single plant with a touch attack. :smallconfused:

[eggynack]

Creeping Cold, mostly broken because it can be persisted if you are stubborn enough to pull it off. Ever increasing damage per round for a day makes dispell a must have. You could also just extend it and it would be pretty good still.
I don't think you can persist creeping cold, cause you need a fixed range. An 8th level spell slot for this effect also seems a bit excessive. Constricting chains and death by thorns are both a level lower, and you could just be doing better things in general. The main problem, which is also a problem for the extended version, is that you get a pretty inevitable kill, but it's also a long kill, and that opens up the opportunity for you to die. extended creeping cold is pretty great though.

[Rubik]

I don't think you can persist creeping cold, cause you need a fixed range. An 8th level spell slot for this effect also seems a bit excessive. Constricting chains and death by thorns are both a level lower, and you could just be doing better things in general. The main problem, which is also a problem for the extended version, is that you get a pretty inevitable kill, but it's also a long kill, and that opens up the opportunity for you to die. extended creeping cold is pretty great though.You'd have to add Ocular Spell to Creeping Cold for an additional +2 to adjusted spell level, but that would allow you to Persist it.

[Gazzien]

Have we mentioned "Dark Way" (Spell Compendium, Sor/Wiz 2, Bard 2, Cleric 2)? It creates "a ribbonlike, weightless unbreakable bridge. A dark way must be anchored at both ends to solid objects, but otherwise can be at any angle. Like a wall of force (PH 298), it must be continuous and unbroken when formed." Sure, "A dark way can support a maximum of 200 pounds per caster level. Creatures that cause the total weight on a dark way to exceed this limit fall through it as if it weren't there.", but you can make it at any angle - how does a perfectly smooth, vertical wall, five feet tall sound? Oh wait, it can't be broken and stops anyone that weighs 200 pounds or less from coming through.

Edit: Or "Legion of Sentinels" (PHB2, Sor/Wiz 3, Beguiler 3)? Nine attacks of opportunity (minimum) on any action that provokes will take down most things real fast.

[eggynack]

You'd have to add Ocular Spell to Creeping Cold for an additional +2 to adjusted spell level, but that would allow you to Persist it.
That doesn't seem like a particularly good strategy. Now we're up to a 10th level spell, so there needs to be some kind of reduction, and already we're up to 4 or 5 feats. It's just not a worthwhile endeavor. Do druids even get metamagic reduction? They certainly don't get arcane thesis, so that's a serious point of inefficiency. Extended creeping cold is a good spell, acting as a greater creeping cold cast at level 20, but persisted ocular creeping cold isn't a good spell, or even a castable one most of the time.

[Vedhin]

Edit: Or "Legion of Sentinels" (PHB2, Sor/Wiz 3, Beguiler 3)? Nine attacks of opportunity (minimum) on any action that provokes will take down most things real fast.

Legion of Sentinels actually affects a sphere. So it can go up to 26 AoO. In a normal dungeon, you can still get as many as 17.

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't think you can persist creeping cold, cause you need a fixed range. An 8th level spell slot for this effect also seems a bit excessive. Constricting chains and death by thorns are both a level lower, and you could just be doing better things in general. The main problem, which is also a problem for the extended version, is that you get a pretty inevitable kill, but it's also a long kill, and that opens up the opportunity for you to die. extended creeping cold is pretty great though.

Extended is also good for use on big chunky targets that the caster can cast on from stealth and then retreat back into stealth. Just so happens that many druids can manage this pretty well with a combo of the right wild shape (birds or the pwnage of earth elemental) and skill buffs.

If one of my druids has been fooling around with disease (a la pox, plague, or pestilence), then a chained creeping cold (or greater creeping cold) can be a good way to finish off a fair number of the infected (via a metamagic rod of chaining, ofc), as it's a Fort save spell. Such strategies are best used from cover anyway, and have the added benefit of causing widespread panic (since everyone has time to panic before they actually die).

Shapechange is broken for 9th level. Any spell that grants a possibly unending array of SLAs (even without venturing out of core) is too good. Spells can grant a small number of more spells or more opportunities for spells (time stop, rary's mnemonic thingy, alamanthar's return), but the SLAs thing isn't even the main intent of shapechange. Just too good to live.

[Venger]

Legion of Sentinels actually affects a sphere. So it can go up to 26 AoO. In a normal dungeon, you can still get as many as 17.

Sculpt it. Then things get really ridiculous.

[bekeleven]

No, they do not. This is common knowledge. When playtesting early 3.5, they played only to low-mid levels (10-12ish) and testers simply neglected to use most of their features. the sample druid, for example, didn't wild shape because her player didn't want to do the bookkeeping, leading to them not knowing that giving 9ths AND wild shape AND a free cohort was a balance problem.

as far as new spls go, those aren't really tested at all. it's why we're able to make threads like this essentially at-will.

speaking of at-will, psionic lion's charge. don't have pounce? well now you do. forever.

So because I like to bring this up at every opportunity:

Wizards released the stats of the 3.0 Iconics used in their playtesting at levels 5, 10 and 15.

Here is a sample.


Mailee: Female elf Wiz5...
HD 5d4+3; HP 17...
Atk +2 Melee (1D6/18-20, Rapier) or +7 Ranged (1D8/x3, MWK Composite Longbow)...
SV Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +5; Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8...
Feats Craft Wondrous Item, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Evocation), Toughness

...

Mailee: Female Elf Wiz 15...
HD 15D4+33; HP 72...
Atk +8/+3 Melee (1D6+1/18-20, +1 Rapier) or +14/+9 Ranged (1D8+2/x3, +1 Composite Longbow with +1 Arrows)...
SV Fort +10, Ref +13, Will +13; Str 10, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 24, Wis 13, Cha 8...
Feats Craft Staff, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Heighten Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration, Toughness...



Vadania: Female half-elf Drd15...
Init +2; Spd 20ft; AC24; Atk +16/+11/+6 Melee (1D6+4/12-20, +2 Keen Throwing Returning Scimitar) or +16 Ranged (1D6+4/12-20, +2 Keen Throwing Returning Scimitar)...
SV Fort +14, Ref +9, Will +18; Str 13, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 24, Cha 8...
Feats Far Shot, Improved Critical (Scimitar), Point-Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll, Track, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)...

I'm not joking: The only playtested druid didn't even take natural spell. She also prepared barkskin twice yet has a potion of it at CL6, prepared Summon Nature's Ally VII as one of her three 7th level spells, and her 8th level spell is Finger of Death. I mean, Mialee prepared that as well, but it was one of six 7th level spells for her.

The most constructive thing to come out of the playtests was seeing that they understood the concept of a dump stat. Ember Mnk15=Cha 8, Lidda Rog15=Cha 8, Nebin Wiz15=Cha 8, Soveliss Rgr15= Cha 8, Krusk Bbn15=Cha 6, Tordek Ftr15= Cha 6. Higher Charismas (at level 15): Sorc 24, Paladin 20 (and 18 wis btw), Bard 19, Cleric 15, Fighter (Regdar) 13.

[Vedhin]

So because I like to bring this up at every opportunity:

Wizards released the stats of the 3.0 Iconics used in their playtesting at levels 5, 10 and 15.

Here is a sample.



Mailee: Female elf Wiz5...
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8



Wait, wut?

[Rubik]

Wait, wut?I could see the player putting 16 in both Dex (with a +2 for race) and Int, though why s/he didn't place his/her 4th level stat bump in Int I have no idea.

[Tar Palantir]

Wait, wut?

Rolled 16s for both, then elf bonus.

[bekeleven]

Rolled 16s for both, then elf bonus.

All iconics used the elite array. It's actually a 15 in int, 13 in dex, but with +2 gloves.

[turbo164]

That wizard looks like she's stacking the bonuses for +1 bow and +1 arrows, too lol. Guess that got nerfed after the playtest?

"Wow Jim, that 3-10 damage on your wizard is broken. Let's reduce that by 1, but let you keep Polymorph. Bill stop crying, your ranger will be fine; you get Endurance as a bonus feat remember?"

[Vedhin]

That wizard looks like she's stacking the bonuses for +1 bow and +1 arrows, too lol.

3.0 archery was cool like that. That and Haste were huge losses for mundanes in the 3.5 revision. Haste because, if you read the charging rules carefully, it gave Pounce to everyone while maintaining the extra attack.

[Dalebert]

my theory is that the level of power word pain was accidentally switched with power word distract, a 4th that... makes a foe flat-footed until its next turn.

That's actually a comment on dndtools.eu and it makes sense. There's no way I'd let that be a lvl 1 spell as a DM. I'm not even going to try to take it as my Beguiler's lvl 1 Adv L. It would make me feel dirty.

[Dalebert]

Power Word Pain is kinda strong looking, but it's really only OP in the hands of a DM casting it on a low level PC. It is sort of a death sentance to a low hp creature, but it takes so long to kill that it's highly impractical in almost any situation.

It's not impractical at all for 1st level. This isn't slow for just about any CR 1 creature--2 or 3 rounds assuming no one assists. The biggest problem with this spell at low level is wasted damage from overkill.

And it may be kinda slow for tougher things, but it's still automatic hit and no save making it an inevitable and nearly unavoidable death to anything with up to about 35 hit points. At CL 1, you're adding 1d6 every round on top of your parties dmg to something while able to start doing other things--cast another spell (another PW:Pain?) or shoot your crossbow or go hide. Other lvl 1s scale up at higher CLs but this is awesome immediately. Hell, put it in a wand!

If you're outside, a 1st level caster with surprise could cast it on a 7HD and bolt, but pick something not too fast and without good ranged attacks. It might chase you, probably to no avail. Just come back in a minute or two and loot.

Pretty sure this is meant to be 4th and it's just a mix-up.

[Venger]

That's actually a comment on dndtools.eu and it makes sense. There's no way I'd let that be a lvl 1 spell as a DM. I'm not even going to try to take it as my Beguiler's lvl 1 Adv L. It would make me feel dirty.

well, those guys have their stuff figured out.

>implying beguilers don't need the help.

there are exactly 2 spells on their list that deal lethal hp damage. in a game where the dm's stingy with money for wands and the like, or you don't rainbow warsnake, the beguiler's got to have some kind of attack to spam. this spell ages very quickly, and will only help the beguiler at very low levels, when he needs it most

[Dalebert]

Well, they can't get it until 3rd level. Still, they're not intended to be a blasty or direct damage type of class. They have sleep at first level, very useful for most things you encounter at early levels. They have Whelm that scales up twice as fast as Magic Missile, though it has a save. Who cares if dmg is non-lethal? Once the enemy is down, you just coup de gras them.

They have an extremely broad spell list and automatically know all of them immediately as they advance. They have 6 a day at first level. That's all on top of being able to wear armor and having almost as many skills as rogues.

Have you played in a game with a beguiler? Ours was practically dominating the game in the first few levels. They're not under-powered.

But all that is beside the point that this is extremely powerful for a 1st level spell regardless of which class is casting it.

[Rubik]

PWP does let you solo really high level encounters for massive XP gain...

[Fax Celestis]

On the issue of underpowered spells, particularly those on the druid spell list, maybe someone could explain repel metal or stone to me. Of course, it's no save/no SR, but still...8th level? I mean, it sounds useful in some situations...odd area for an abjuration, but still useful. But I would like more than "sometimes okay" from an 8th level spell.

It repels anything wearing armor or wielding a weapon. It's actually a pretty strong defensive maneuver: anyone who wants to come up and beat you with an object by the time you get 8ths is almost definitely wielding adamantine and wearing mithral.

[Venger]

Well, they can't get it until 3rd level. Still, they're not intended to be a blasty or direct damage type of class. They have sleep at first level, very useful for most things you encounter at early levels. They have Whelm that scales up twice as fast as Magic Missile, though it has a save. Who cares if dmg is non-lethal? Once the enemy is down, you just coup de gras them.

there's a difference between being blasty/direct damage and being able to actually harm your enemy at all.

sleep is ok at very low levels, but ages quickly, especially due to its 1 round casting time.

whelm is terrible, not just because it allows a save, but because of how many things are resistant/immune to nonlethal at all levels. it also scales very slowly, getting an extra d6 every odd lvl after 1 instead of the more standard 1 every level like similar spells such as shocking grasp. this means that it takes all the way until 9 to hit the same cap of 5d6 that regular spells hit at 5 (plus they actually deal lethal damage)



They have an extremely broad spell list and automatically know all of them immediately as they advance. They have 6 a day at first level. That's all on top of being able to wear armor and having almost as many skills as rogues.

Have you played in a game with a beguiler? Ours was practically dominating the game in the first few levels. They're not under-powered.

But all that is beside the point that this is extremely powerful for a 1st level spell regardless of which class is casting it.

I'm aware of how beguilers know all the spells on their spell lists, thanks. what does it matter how many slots they have if none of them can actually affect the enemy?

I'm not sure what kind of game you're playing in that a +5 from a mithral breastplate makes any kind of difference, but it has not mattered in any games I've beguiled in. it certainly doesn't make them more powerful than a comparative arcane class. armored casting is one of the things the design team has since confessed they massively overvalued the usefulness of. skills are skills, they're essentially a nonentity past low-mid levels. they're fun to have, but lacking them makes little real difference when you've got umd for guidance of the avatar and the like.


beguilers are a lot of fun, which is why I play them so often, but they do not have a broad spell list. their spell list is short and almost exclusively illusion and enchantment. they are completely locked down by an immunity to mind affecting, which several types grant, in addition to mind blank like effects, which can be online much earlier through psionic mind blank or a pact with haures.

without some kind of actual combat options through their advanced learning, such as shadow evocation/conjuration, they are wholly impotent in a combat against enemies with immunity to mind-affecting spells.

they can absolutely thrive in social games, but are completely screwed in a dungeon crawl or even a more balanced split between combat and rp unless the dm agrees to throw you a bone and allow enemies to not be immune to mind affecting all the time. without this concession in place, you're just unable to affect huge swaths of enemies, which is difficult to correct for, especially when you don't have enough money for wands of offensive spells.

as far as PWP goes, sure it's too powerful for a first level spell, but since beguilers have no other game breaking spells at low levels, giving him this one (enhantment, compulsion, living only, close range, and with less than 100hp) trick isn't exactly the same as giving it to a wizard.

[Dalebert]

it also scales very slowly, getting an extra d6 every odd lvl after 1 instead of the more standard 1 every level like similar spells such as shocking grasp.

My memory was wrong on that one. I was thinking it scaled 1d6 per lvl. I don't disagree with much of your post. My beguiler is half transmuter, about to go Ultimate Magus so maybe I don't feel it as much. It compliments very well for that.

[Venger]

My memory was wrong on that one. I was thinking it scaled 1d6 per lvl. I don't disagree with much of your post. My beguiler is half transmuter, about to go Ultimate Magus so maybe I don't feel it as much. It compliments very well for that.

no problem. it's easy to forget since the spell has a very narrow window of when it's useful. ah, well that would explain that then. his ability to dominate encounters is due more to his wizard half than his beguiler half.

[Phelix-Mu]

It repels anything wearing armor or wielding a weapon. It's actually a pretty strong defensive maneuver: anyone who wants to come up and beat you with an object by the time you get 8ths is almost definitely wielding adamantine and wearing mithral.

My problem with this use of repel metal or stone is that the area is kind of useless. It's very effective in that 60' line. But once someone manages to move out of that line, they are unaffected. So, I'm seeing it being kickass in a narrow hallway. But, on the other hand, I'm rather inclined to think that the types of enemies that are charging in full plate as you cast 8th level non-kill spells at them are probably not idiots.

Also, if it's a line, it's probably affecting a bare minimum of targets. Why not a cone? Is 8th level too low for a cone? Abjurations that work in straight lines...I'm just not feeling the vibe here.

[Incanur]

without some kind of actual combat options through their advanced learning, such as shadow evocation/conjuration, they are wholly impotent in a combat against enemies with immunity to mind-affecting spells.

People often say this, but the list suggests otherwise as long as you've got your party with you: fog cloud, glitterdust, haste, slow, legion of sentinels, dispel magic, solid fog, greater dispel magic, etc. If your mind-affecting spells don't work in an encounter, just buff and do battlefield control. With martial characters to buff, the listed spells happen to be awesome in a dungeon crawl against nothing but undead and constructs.

[Fax Celestis]

My problem with this use of repel metal or stone is that the area is kind of useless. It's very effective in that 60' line. But once someone manages to move out of that line, they are unaffected. So, I'm seeing it being kickass in a narrow hallway. But, on the other hand, I'm rather inclined to think that the types of enemies that are charging in full plate as you cast 8th level non-kill spells at them are probably not idiots.

Also, if it's a line, it's probably affecting a bare minimum of targets. Why not a cone? Is 8th level too low for a cone? Abjurations that work in straight lines...I'm just not feeling the vibe here.

Sure. But also keep in mind that you can use Shape Spell on it. Also note that the spell creates what amounts to a wall, since:

The waves of energy continue to sweep down the set path for the spell’s duration. After you cast the spell, the path is set, and you can then do other things or go elsewhere without affecting the spell’s power.

Play with it like a wall, not a lightning bolt. It's a no-save pushback that blocks metal missiles, anyone wearing or wielding metal equipment (armor, metamagic rods, weapons, earrings...), small constructs (those less than 500 lbs, anyway), and other metallic objects. Use it on a dragon's hoard and throw his treasure around.

[JaronK]

Stone Metamorphosis. There's plenty of super valuable stone types out there (such as Sickstone or Slickstone). And with Wall of Stone, this spell lets you have all of it permanently.

JaronK

[Phelix-Mu]

Sure. But also keep in mind that you can use Shape Spell on it. Also note that the spell creates what amounts to a wall, since:


Play with it like a wall, not a lightning bolt. It's a no-save pushback that blocks metal missiles, anyone wearing or wielding metal equipment (armor, metamagic rods, weapons, earrings...), small constructs (those less than 500 lbs, anyway), and other metallic objects. Use it on a dragon's hoard and throw his treasure around.

Well, needing a metamagic feat to make a spell useful is terrible spell design.

But I really do like your second point. That's a good way to think of it. Although it seems to me that the direction of the "push" is fixed when the spell is set, which means that it is an imperfect wall at best; if you stand "behind" it, things trying to move toward you will be pushed at a 90 degree angle to their movement. This will make them inaccurate due to the rate of the push, but I don't think it actually stops one from crossing the wall.

Could be interesting to use in combat, though. I'm also seeing a utility use, as you mention, to move non-hostile things around.

Thanks, Fax. I still think the level is all wrong, but it no longer seems borderline useless.

@JaronK: Oh, my druid loved to abuse that stone metamorphosis. One of the cool things about changing rocks from one type to another is discrepancies in density, strength, and melting points. Add in transmute rock to lava or natural magma sources (heheheh), and proceed to be extremely dangerous to underground creatures.

[eggynack]

Stone Metamorphosis. There's plenty of super valuable stone types out there (such as Sickstone or Slickstone). And with Wall of Stone, this spell lets you have all of it permanently.

JaronK
Are there any other good ones you know of? I'm not too knowledgeable about odd and powerful stone types.

Edit: Whoa, underdark has infinite stone variety.

[JaronK]

Are there any other good ones you know of? I'm not too knowledgeable about odd and powerful stone types.

Edit: Whoa, underdark has infinite stone variety.

If you've looked in Underdark Handbook, you've found all the good ones except Elukian Clay (which is basically just like any metal, except it's stone and doesn't slow down your swim checks).

I like making suits of Dwarvencraft Quality Elukian Clay Mechanicus Gear, haunt shifting Dread Warriors into them, and having super armored bodyguards. Hardness 10 is actually pretty effective, especially against ranged and spell attacks.

JaronK

[eggynack]

If you've looked in Underdark Handbook, you've found all the good ones except Elukian Clay (which is basically just like any metal, except it's stone and doesn't slow down your swim checks).

I like making suits of Dwarvencraft Quality Elukian Clay Mechanicus Gear, haunt shifting Dread Warriors into them, and having super armored bodyguards. Hardness 10 is actually pretty effective, especially against ranged and spell attacks.

JaronK
Yeah, that underdark list seems expansive enough to make the spell good on its own. It's like a bunch of spells packed into one, except on a permanent basis. Sickstone seems a bit on the ridiculous side, given that a save doesn't completely stop the effect. It's an interesting thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

Are there any other good ones you know of? I'm not too knowledgeable about odd and powerful stone types.

Edit: Whoa, underdark has infinite stone variety.

Also, if the DM is allowing a touch of real-world reference in the game, vinegar can be used to dissolve marble or limestone (albeit not quickly). Some mundane stone types have qualities that inherently are useful or exploitable if the DM cares to model them in the game. While a DM would do well to avoid the full chemistry set that this spell might make possible, there's no reason not to model real-world rocks with at least a touch of realism.

Not terribly useful for a handbook, I know, but it's worth a note that there is no reason in game that beautiful marble is not worth more than slate or sandstone. In fact, there may even be a reference to the value of marble or similar stone in one of those nifty Draconomicon tables that list goods that dragons might have in lieu of coin.

[eggynack]

Also, if the DM is allowing a touch of real-world reference in the game, vinegar can be used to dissolve marble or limestone (albeit not quickly). Some mundane stone types have qualities that inherently are useful or exploitable if the DM cares to model them in the game. While a DM would do well to avoid the full chemistry set that this spell might make possible, there's no reason not to model real-world rocks with at least a touch of realism.

Not terribly useful for a handbook, I know, but it's worth a note that there is no reason in game that beautiful marble is not worth more than slate or sandstone. In fact, there may even be a reference to the value of marble or similar stone in one of those nifty Draconomicon tables that list goods that dragons might have in lieu of coin.
Y'know, it's not actually clear how stone metamorphosis interacts with valuable stone. Like, is it physically incapable of making rock gourds, or does it make them, except merchants arbitrarily hate them? Anyways, random rock chemistry is a pretty cool thing. Stuff along those lines, along with the fact that it has instantaneous duration, was the reason I had the spell written down initially. I hadn't really considered crazy half-magic rocks. However, I've gotta figure that you could make rock easy to destroy with more ease than that. It's a cool thing though.

[Phelix-Mu]

Y'know, it's not actually clear how stone metamorphosis interacts with valuable stone. Like, is it physically incapable of making rock gourds, or does it make them, except merchants arbitrarily hate them? Anyways, random rock chemistry is a pretty cool thing. Stuff along those lines, along with the fact that it has instantaneous duration, was the reason I had the spell written down initially. I hadn't really considered crazy half-magic rocks. However, I've gotta figure that you could make rock easy to destroy with more ease than that. It's a cool thing though.

It's certainly a boon to a craftsman; too bad that area of the game gets little love.

Back to spells that are broken for their level....

Elemental guardian, a nice gem from the Dragon Magazines (#347, according to my source). The key to this clr5, drd4, sor/wiz5 is that it lasts one day/level. Well, someone wasn't thinking. Basically, for a bit of downtime investment, one can ensure that whatever headquarters/home/base of operations the party is using is full of these things, which have spammable ranged elemental attacks, elemental glide, improved grab, constrict, suffocate, and a variety of other really useful stuff. They can't move far, but they have an Int of 12, so can easily take complicated commands if you speak its language (the spell even says so).

Oh, and they have invisibility (as the condition, not the spell) when surrounded in their element (air? surrounded by air?). Pretty damn cool for 4th level.

It can be made permanent, but costs a wopping 3500xp. Compare that to an extended version of the druid spell, a 5th level spell slot that will last 18 days at 9th level. Combine with pearl of power and ensure that anyone that attacks your stronghold gets a face full of acid. Also nice for Moonspeakers and other builds that summon for really long durations.

Also nice for prepping a battlefield when the characters know a fight will happen in a couple days time. Finally, it might be possible to sell a DM on them being "elementals" for purposes of the feats that buff elementals summoned...not sure any DM will swallow Rashemi Elemental Summoning, but some of the other ones may work.

[Dalebert]

no problem. it's easy to forget since the spell has a very narrow window of when it's useful.

It's fairly useful forever for a 1st level spell. 5d6 is comparable to many other scalable 1st level spells and is just what the doctor ordered when targeted against something expected to have poor will saves compared to other saves.

I feel like you're looking at this with tunnel-vision. Sure, you can describe a very particular encounter in which the beguiler is not nearly as effective as other classes. You can do that with any class. It's why people multi-class or go into prestige classes if they're willing to sacrifice some harder punches for more versatility. Alternatively, you do good teamwork in a well-balanced party. Probably both.


ah, well that would explain that then. his ability to dominate encounters is due more to his wizard half than his beguiler half.

No, that's my character. I brought him in long after the other guy left the game. He kind of inspired me to make a beguiler. I was talking about when we were first through third levels and this guy was only a beguiler at the time. He had an array of really helpful spells even as a first level character and more than 6 spells per day with his INT bonus. That's more than a sorcerer. He saved our bacon a lot. I heard stories about him playing a beguiler in another game and they were telling similar stories. Having more spells in their repertoire at 1st level than almost any other class (maybe a warmage) and having more per day than almost any other class (than a warmage) that I know of... they hardly seem gimped as you seem to perceive them somehow.

[Dalebert]

The 3.0 version of Earth Reaver from Savage Species. Since been nerfed to more reasonable.

The main thing was the area. It was 20' plus 10' / level radius. Now it's a fixed 20'. Plus it was bumped from 4th level to 5th.

7d6 no saving throw dmg. Save or be knocked prone is pure icing. But the real kicker was that you could level a city block of buildings and bury everyone inside. I actually took out the barracks of a slave camp with this before I realized the nerf. Even with the nerf, we could have done serious dmg. (Except I can't cast 5th level spells yet in that game.)

[Dalebert]

Shambler (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shambler)

The main thing is the duration--minimum 7 days, for having a brigade of shambling mounds at your command. No difficult or expensive components either to limit its usage. You could cast it multiple times over several days and have a small army for several more days of adventuring and/or a small war before resting up and getting your 9th level spells back. Alternatively, cast it multiple times until you surround your lair with a small army-duration 7 MONTHS! Another perk is a casting time of just a standard action. That's faster than a (lvl 9) summon monster that lasts 1 rd/lvl.

Compare it to other domains for the elements. They all have elemental swarm for 9th lvl. The elementals they summon are clearly more powerful BUT, Casting time is 10 minutes, it takes 20 more minutes to ramp up to full power as the bigger elementals finally emerge, and it only last 10 minutes per level. Potentially a huge amount of power in certain very particular situations but very impractical for most when an encounter begins and ends in a span of a minute or two. However, if you do want to go wage war on Helm's Deep, Elemental Swarm is the way to go. I'm just dreading getting stuck with it for a domain slot.

Even for a 9th lvl spell, Shambler is insane. My cleric of Obad-Hai may switch back to Plant domain just for that one spell.

[Venger]

It's fairly useful forever for a 1st level spell. 5d6 is comparable to many other scalable 1st level spells and is just what the doctor ordered when targeted against something expected to have poor will saves compared to other saves.

unlike these spells, it's spread out over time. since combat only lasts on average 3-4 rounds, it's for the most part going to be dealing less damage than a comparable spell of the same level.

power word pain does not have a save, so I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding will saves.


I feel like you're looking at this with tunnel-vision. Sure, you can describe a very particular encounter in which the beguiler is not nearly as effective as other classes. You can do that with any class. .

Immunity to mind-affecting is hardly a "very particular encounter." 5 of the 15 creature types are wholly immune to mind-affecting effects. even amongst the 11 types that are vulnerable by merit of type, blanket protection from enchantment is available beginning at level 1 via spells, and creatures of all sorts are able to ignore illusions more or less at will from level 1 through scent/blindsense/etc, when beguilers are struggling the most. the same level you get your bigger, nastier tricks (major image, improved invis,etc) enemies sensory powers get progressively more powerful as well


It's why people multi-class or go into prestige classes if they're willing to sacrifice some harder punches for more versatility. Alternatively, you do good teamwork in a well-balanced party. Probably both

Well... yeah. There's nothing wrong with multiclassing as a beguiler, necessarily (though you unfortunately miss out on their undeniably sweet-ass capstone) but if you are a theurgic wizard/beguiler, it really makes no sense to say "beguilers are actually quite versatile and can fight against mind-affecting immune monsters because of all these wizard spells they know." this is a strength of wizard, not of beguiler.

beguilers are absolutely capable of offering good support to a party, but if they're in a fight with enemies immune to their tricks, they will need to rely on the other party members to pull their weight since they can't dominate enemy monsters and the like.



No, that's my character. I brought him in long after the other guy left the game. He kind of inspired me to make a beguiler. I was talking about when we were first through third levels and this guy was only a beguiler at the time. He had an array of really helpful spells even as a first level character and more than 6 spells per day with his INT bonus. That's more than a sorcerer. He saved our bacon a lot. I heard stories about him playing a beguiler in another game and they were telling similar stories. Having more spells in their repertoire at 1st level than almost any other class (maybe a warmage) and having more per day than almost any other class (than a warmage) that I know of... they hardly seem gimped as you seem to perceive them somehow.

okay. well, regardless of whose character it was, certain things remain the same: at low levels especially, beguilers have a lot of trouble with enemies immune to their spells. this is also the level where the party is unable to pull the beguiler's slack without incurring a lot of trouble themselves.

I know beguilers get a few more slots than sorcerers, but that doesn't matter if their spells are incapable of affecting the enemy.

duskblade has more 1st lvl spells in mid-low levels, making it another popular entry for an INT SAD ultimate magus.

beguilers aren't exactly "gimped," I'm not sure where you're getting that from, there are just a large amount of situations that a straight beguiler (not an ultimate magus or rainbow warsnake) will have a lot of difficulty with on his own merits. can an ultimate magus handle any threat on his own? well sure, but that's because he's a wizard, not because he's a beguiler.


as far as mis-leveled spells go:

seeming: this is one I never understood. disguise self is a 1, so doing it a bunch is a... 5? it's just as easy to get through, and though the durtation's longer, a hat of disguise has been outdoing this for many many levels.

anticipate teleportation: this spell is straight up ridiculous as far as combat goes when you start using it in tandem with teleportation spells. rattle opponents around with dimension shuffle, and they disappear for a while, ginv you time to prebuff, lay traps, have your party's meat and/or sneak move into flanking position, buy yourself some time, set traps, summon monsters, or anything else you like. dimension step/ dimension hop on yourself or friends and give yourself a pseudo time hop sans save for bad guys. possibilities: limitless. great bargain as a 3rd, especially with its straight up stupid 24 hour duration (great for extending!) greater version as a 6th seems about on par with what a 6th should do.

[eggynack]

Shambler (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shambler)

The main thing is the duration--minimum 7 days, for having a brigade of shambling mounds at your command. No difficult or expensive components either to limit its usage. You could cast it multiple times over several days and have a small army for several more days of adventuring and/or a small war before resting up and getting your 9th level spells back. Alternatively, cast it multiple times until you surround your lair with a small army-duration 7 MONTHS! Another perk is a casting time of just a standard action. That's faster than a (lvl 9) summon monster that lasts 1 rd/lvl.

Compare it to other domains for the elements. They all have elemental swarm for 9th lvl. The elementals they summon are clearly more powerful BUT, Casting time is 10 minutes, it takes 20 more minutes to ramp up to full power as the bigger elementals finally emerge, and it only last 10 minutes per level. Potentially a huge amount of power in certain very particular situations but very impractical for most when an encounter begins and ends in a span of a minute or two. However, if you do want to go wage war on Helm's Deep, Elemental Swarm is the way to go. I'm just dreading getting stuck with it for a domain slot.

Even for a 9th lvl spell, Shambler is insane. My cleric of Obad-Hai may switch back to Plant domain just for that one spell.
Shambler is quite a nice spell, as is any spell with a useful ability and a duration of greater than a day. I wouldn't call it broken for its level though. Shambling mounds don't really do much beyond shambling and being a general nuisance, and what we're really comparing it to at that level is shapechange. Shapechange is shapechange is shapechange, and everything else ends up looking like a pile o' crap as a result.

[Phelix-Mu]

Shambler is quite a nice spell, as is any spell with a useful ability and a duration of greater than a day. I wouldn't call it broken for its level though. Shambling mounds don't really do much beyond shambling and being a general nuisance, and what we're really comparing it to at that level is shapechange. Shapechange is shapechange is shapechange, and everything else ends up looking like a pile o' crap as a result.

But dump some shamblers in a pit with shocker lizards, shake violently, and now we have some fun! The countdown rate of their Con boost ability makes it really easy for a high-level druid to give the shamblers an arbitrarily high number of bonus HP from high Constitution. Chained thunderhead is another good way. Also storm elementals.

[Venger]

Shambler is quite a nice spell, as is any spell with a useful ability and a duration of greater than a day. I wouldn't call it broken for its level though. Shambling mounds don't really do much beyond shambling and being a general nuisance, and what we're really comparing it to at that level is shapechange. Shapechange is shapechange is shapechange, and everything else ends up looking like a pile o' crap as a result.

I mean, I guess you could juice them with a bunch of electricity damage and share pain or something, but a CR 6 monster isn't going to hurt anything you're fighting against at level 17+

speaking of plant themed spells:

when the heck does anyone ever need antiplant shell? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antiplantShell.htm) this is supposed to compete with the likes of bite of the wereboar, enhance wildshape, enervation, and divine power. instead, it... keeps plants away from you. useful for all the 30ish plant monsters that ther are, I guess, but who's walking around with this prepared?

[eggynack]

But dump some shamblers in a pit with shocker lizards, shake violently, and now we have some fun! The countdown rate of their Con boost ability makes it really easy for a high-level druid to give the shamblers an arbitrarily high number of bonus HP from high Constitution. Chained thunderhead is another good way. Also storm elementals.
It's a nice trick, but then you just go from ineffectual monsters to ineffectual monsters that can't be killed by HP damage. It's not that much of an upgrade, in other words, because anyone who can't deal with a massive hoard of shambling mounds with too much HP probably couldn't deal with the ordinary sort. Moreover, anyone who can't deal with the ordinary sort isn't much of a threat. I think its greatest value is in the area guarding version, because getting a mass of creatures to guard a place might be helpful. Not extraordinarily helpful, because seriously, they can't even fly, but maybe a little bit. Honestly, the more I think about this spell, the worse it seems. It's mostly just good if you have some downtime, and if you have nothing to do during that downtime.

[Scow2]

I mean, I guess you could juice them with a bunch of electricity damage and share pain or something, but a CR 6 monster isn't going to hurt anything you're fighting against at level 17+

speaking of plant themed spells:

when the heck does anyone ever need antiplant shell? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antiplantShell.htm) this is supposed to compete with the likes of bite of the wereboar, enhance wildshape, enervation, and divine power. instead, it... keeps plants away from you. useful for all the 30ish plant monsters that ther are, I guess, but who's walking around with this prepared?Well, if you're going to be facing anyone who knows the Shambler spell...

So, there! Another mark against Shambler - it can be completely shut down by a level 6 Druid spell!

[eggynack]

How about ghost companion (Ghost, 53)? Cast aspect of the wolf (SpC, 16) beforehand and you get to fly around as a ghost for days. You need some way to bring yourself back (I recommend cocoon (SpC, 49)), and that's going to be costly no matter how you do it, but ghosts are powerful, especially when they're also druids. You're nigh-invulnerable for the duration, and you get some nifty abilities on the side. It's not really a second level spell for this purpose, because you can't really afford a resurrection at 3rd, and the duration probably isn't worth it then anyway, but it's cool.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wasn't so much saying the shamblers are awesome fighters, but that this is an awesome way to convert elemental energy into life energy. It will probably take greater minds than mine to find a use for that...but gosh, there has to be a use for that.

[eggynack]

I wasn't so much saying the shamblers are awesome fighters, but that this is an awesome way to convert elemental energy into life energy. It will probably take greater minds than mine to find a use for that...but gosh, there has to be a use for that.
Generally, the idea is to become a shambling mound, thus giving yourself massive HP, instead of making a friendly shambling mound, and giving him massive HP. Shapechange is the traditional method, if I'm not mistaken. You are worth protecting. A shambling mound is not.

[Venger]

Well, if you're going to be facing anyone who knows the Shambler spell...

So, there! Another mark against Shambler - it can be completely shut down by a level 6 Druid spell!

I lol'd.

but antiplant shell is a 4th lvl druid spell. even more embarrassing


I wasn't so much saying the shamblers are awesome fighters, but that this is an awesome way to convert elemental energy into life energy. It will probably take greater minds than mine to find a use for that...but gosh, there has to be a use for that.

couple ways:

1) share pain
2) dalvernar
3) vampiric touch (NI hp)

[Perseus]

Really, Venger, you're missing the point. It's a personal buff spell; I mean, to break LoE while still being able to cast is pretty awesome.

That was my first thought actually ... Go Psion and Druid gestalt or take levels of both and get a prestige class that gives +1 level divine caster +1 level manifestor ... Homebrew if needed.

It would be hilarious to freeze yourself and start blasting away... Hell you could count the ice as your possession and psionic dimensiinal door around the battlefield! The party will groan when they realize why you wanted the ring of cold resistance/immunity and not any other magic item. For giggles I'm sure wildshape can come in handy.

Totes got to make this character ...

[Venger]

That was my first thought actually ... Go Psion and Druid gestalt or take levels of both and get a prestige class that gives +1 level divine caster +1 level manifestor ... Homebrew if needed.

It would be hilarious to freeze yourself and start blasting away... Hell you could count the ice as your possession and psionic dimensiinal door around the battlefield! The party will groan when they realize why you wanted the ring of cold resistance/immunity and not any other magic item. For giggles I'm sure wildshape can come in handy.

Totes got to make this character ...

use psychic theurge, available here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)

no gestalt necessary, just theurge (use ur-priest for maximum cheese)

dimdoor? man, where you at, use inconstant location. you've apparently got 6ths online. mantle of the icy soul will obviate any need for items, and also probably give you a situational mod to hides while in the ice. if not, you could always buff with ivory flesh.

[Phelix-Mu]

So, question.

Before Tippy gets here, can we take the shambling mound, use electricity over a couple days to give it NI Con, then PaO or ice assassin it in a way that prevents the Con from decreasing? Basically, if the monster changes in such a way that it loses Immunity to Electricity, does it lose that bonus Constitution? It seems to me that the increase to Constitution is instantaneous, but the clause on the rate of decrease would also be gone.

Just wondering, cause I'd like to juice up one shambling mound, then copy it, if possible. So ice assassin is looking tempting, but I'm not sure if the boosted con is copied or not.

Anyway, shambler is a terrible (if reliable) way to get hands on a shambling mound, especially with spells that let you pretty much dominate plants.

[Rubik]

So, question.

Before Tippy gets here, can we take the shambling mound, use electricity over a couple days to give it NI Con, then PaO or ice assassin it in a way that prevents the Con from decreasing? Basically, if the monster changes in such a way that it loses Immunity to Electricity, does it lose that bonus Constitution? It seems to me that the increase to Constitution is instantaneous, but the clause on the rate of decrease would also be gone.

Just wondering, cause I'd like to juice up one shambling mound, then copy it, if possible. So ice assassin is looking tempting, but I'm not sure if the boosted con is copied or not.

Anyway, shambler is a terrible (if reliable) way to get hands on a shambling mound, especially with spells that let you pretty much dominate plants.If you find a way to meld with a hagunemnon (Gate/Fusion/Astral Seed), then you can keep the Electricity Immunity ability without issue.

[nedz]

I wasn't so much saying the shamblers are awesome fighters, but that this is an awesome way to convert elemental energy into life energy. It will probably take greater minds than mine to find a use for that...but gosh, there has to be a use for that.


Be a Dryad
PaO your tree into a Shambling Mound
Learn Lightning Bolt (or similar)
Take the Storm Bolt Reserve feat


Now you have an APC you and your friends can ride around inside of all day.

[Phelix-Mu]

Be a Dryad
PaO your tree into a Shambling Mound
Learn Lightning Bolt (or similar)
Take the Storm Bolt Reserve feat


Now you have an APC you and your friends can ride around inside of all day.

Yay. This is the kind of fun I was talking about. I also had a thought about powering a living ship off of shambling mounds. Could be an interesting option.

Anyway, more about broken spells!

[Dalebert]

power word pain does not have a save, so I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding will saves.

We were discussing whelm at that point. The quoting feature cuts some stuph off.


I know beguilers get a few more slots than sorcerers, but that doesn't matter if their spells are incapable of affecting the enemy.

My bad. I was comparing to the wrong sorcerer chart. They appear to get the exact same number of spells per day as sorcerers.


duskblade has more 1st lvl spells in mid-low levels, making it another popular entry for an INT SAD ultimate magus.

What chart are you looking at? Beguilers appear to get many more spells per day and higher level spells sooner until later levels when Duskblades do get obscene numbers. I imagine Duskblade spells aren't so specific to a couple of schools. I am unfamiliar.


beguilers aren't exactly "gimped," I'm not sure where you're getting that from,

This all stemmed from the Power Word Stun chat when lots of people agreed that it was overpowered and you essentially implied that a beguiler was gimped enough to justify having it.


there are just a large amount of situations that a straight beguiler (not an ultimate magus or rainbow warsnake) will have a lot of difficulty with on his own merits. can an ultimate magus handle any threat on his own? well sure, but that's because he's a wizard, not because he's a beguiler.

I just brought in a UM-bound character as my second character because the party lost all its arcane casters. I think his build is going to be awesome but he hasn't done much. The party has hardly had any challenges even without his help. The DM made me bring him in at half the level of everyone else. That's not what I'm basing all this on at all. You keep bringing it up.

My experience is of our early levels when the beguiler (just a beguiler) bailed us out of scary stuph many times when we were still wimpy. When undead showed up, it was my cleric leaving everyone else bored, but most of the time it was the beguiler. But that's just my experience. Maybe your DM likes to go heavy on the encounters that suck for you.

[Dalebert]

Shambler is quite a nice spell, as is any spell with a useful ability and a duration of greater than a day. I wouldn't call it broken for its level though. Shambling mounds don't really do much beyond shambling and being a general nuisance, and what we're really comparing it to at that level is shapechange. Shapechange is shapechange is shapechange, and everything else ends up looking like a pile o' crap as a result.

Shapechange has been a favorite spell of mine historically, back when I played AD&D. It's still awesome particularly since they gimped a lot of shapeshifting, most of the lower level stuph, and didn't really gimp SS much at all. It makes the caster very powerful for a few hours. That said, it's not a long duration (days or months) spell that's effects stack limitlessly. They've nerfed most of the stuph that was like that and the stuph that remains almost always has expensive components or x.p. costs. But not shambler.

I think I'm going to unofficially renamed this spell to "Wall of Shamblers". Just keep summoning them and have them climb on top of each other, make several layers of them, and literally have a wall made of shambling mounds around your fortress. >:)

It's not so much an adventuring kind of spell that's going to make a dungeon crawl too easy. It's more of a super-villain spell for taking over small cities and such.

[Dalebert]

Well, if you're going to be facing anyone who knows the Shambler spell...

So, there! Another mark against Shambler - it can be completely shut down by a level 6 Druid spell!

Bah! My impenetrable wall of shamblers is in a shambles!

[Dalebert]

BTW, any electrical attack adds 1d4 Con regardless of how damaging it is. Go with Electric Jolt (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/electric-jolt--3535/).

[Hamste]

There is an edit button by your posts. Please use it as you shouldn't double post

[eggynack]

They've nerfed most of the stuph that was like that and the stuph that remains almost always has expensive components or x.p. costs. But not shambler.
They didn't really ban much of anything. Zodar for infinite wishes is a classic maneuver, as is choker for extra actions. You can do pretty much anything in existence with shapechange, while you can't do much with shambler. Sure, you can take over a small city, but you can do that with pretty much anything in your arsenal by that point. Anything that's a real threat would be utterly unthreatened by a shambling mound. If flight can stop your tactic, then your tactic doesn't qualify as a tactic at 17th level.

[Ansem]

Not spell but a power, Entangling Ectoplasm and Conceiling Amorpha are far too awesome for their level personally and if they existed as spell I would see them as lvl 2 and lvl 3 respectively, atleast.

[Yael]

BTW, any electrical attack adds 1d4 Con regardless of how damaging it is. Go with Electric Jolt (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/electric-jolt--3535/).

How does that apply?

[TuggyNE]

How does that apply?

Context: shambling mounds only.

[Thurbane]

People often say this, but the list suggests otherwise as long as you've got your party with you: fog cloud, glitterdust, haste, slow, legion of sentinels, dispel magic, solid fog, greater dispel magic, etc. If your mind-affecting spells don't work in an encounter, just buff and do battlefield control. With martial characters to buff, the listed spells happen to be awesome in a dungeon crawl against nothing but undead and constructs.
Could not agree more. Whenever I see "Beguiler impotent vs mindless enemy" threads, I seriously don't know how people can miss this kind of stuff.

Not to mention, as has been brought to my attention in aforementioned threads, illusions are very effective against mindless beings.

And that's before you even throw UMD into the mix.

[TypoNinja]

Could not agree more. Whenever I see "Beguiler impotent vs mindless enemy" threads, I seriously don't know how people can miss this kind of stuff.

Not to mention, as has been brought to my attention in aforementioned threads, illusions are very effective against mindless beings.

And that's before you even throw UMD into the mix.

Illusions are awesome against mindless creatures! Too stupid to question reality as presented to them!

[Rubik]

Regular Shivering Touch aside, Lesser Shivering Touch is terribly, brokenly powerful. A 1st level spell that gives you a touch attack for 1 round/lvl which deals 1d6 Dex damage. Not too terrible until you get up into higher levels, wherein you can Polymorph into a fleshraker dinosaur and deal +1d6 Dex damage with every natural attack. Add in metamagic such as Maximize, and...

[Venger]

Regular Shivering Touch aside, Lesser Shivering Touch is terribly, brokenly powerful. A 1st level spell that gives you a touch attack for 1 round/lvl which deals 1d6 Dex damage. Not too terrible until you get up into higher levels, wherein you can Polymorph into a fleshraker dinosaur and deal +1d6 Dex damage with every natural attack. Add in metamagic such as Maximize, and...

or as early as level 3, alter yourself into a grell for 11 natural attacks. all you need is the aberration type: easily accessible via elan or daelkyr halfblood, or the also 1st lvl spell "aberrate" courtesy of bovd if your guy doesn't want to be an aberration full-time for whatever reason.

[Dalebert]

No Light. 0-lvl spell from 3.0. Better than darkness in many situations. Completely suppresses all natural light sources to nothing making everyone inside completely blind unless they have darkvision. Any magical light source counteracts it though, even 0-lvl. Maybe it just seems good because I'm in a low magic game where the DM keeps throwing human fighters at us.

What's the deal with 3.0 spells, btw? Are they invalid outright or only if they've made a new 3.5 version to replace it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

No Light. 0-lvl spell from 3.0. Better than darkness in many situations. Completely suppresses all natural light sources to nothing making everyone inside completely blind unless they have darkvision. Any magical light source counteracts it though, even 0-lvl. Maybe it just seems good because I'm in a low magic game where the DM keeps throwing human fighters at us.

What's the deal with 3.0 spells, btw? Are they invalid outright or only if they've made a new 3.5 version to replace it?

The official line is valid unless updated.

[Rubik]

No Light. 0-lvl spell from 3.0. Better than darkness in many situations. Completely suppresses all natural light sources to nothing making everyone inside completely blind unless they have darkvision. Any magical light source counteracts it though, even 0-lvl. Maybe it just seems good because I'm in a low magic game where the DM keeps throwing human fighters at us.Combine with a ring of the darkhidden, a very cheap item in the MIC. Now you're completely invisible for the cost of a cantrip, assuming nobody casts a [Light] spell.

[Dalebert]

Combine with a ring of the darkhidden, a very cheap item in the MIC. Now you're completely invisible for the cost of a cantrip, assuming nobody casts a [Light] spell.

We really should try to do that. Maybe it will teach this new DM a lesson about having powerful magic-weilding characters in a low magic setting. He still just doesn't seem to have grasped the ramifications. But I'm honestly getting kind of bored. We're not challenged. I wish I wasn't so desperate for D&D.

[Rubik]

We really should try to do that. Maybe it will teach this new DM a lesson about having powerful magic-weilding characters in a low magic setting. He still just doesn't seem to have grasped the ramifications. But I'm honestly getting kind of bored. We're not challenged. I wish I wasn't so desperate for D&D.Maybe you should alter your tactics to make things fun in other ways. Forego No Light and go for buffing your party, instead.

[Sith_Happens]

Maybe you should alter your tactics to make things fun in other ways. Forego No Light and go for buffing your party, instead.

Why not both?

1. Be a War Weaver.
2. Cast Darkvision on the whole party at the beginning of the day.
3. Cast (Widened) No Light at anything that wants to eat/stab you.

[Rubik]

Why not both?

1. Be a War Weaver.
2. Cast Darkvision on the whole party at the beginning of the day.
3. Cast (Widened) No Light at anything that wants to eat/stab you.Read the part I quoted. He's not having fun with the lack of challenge from casting No Light. Your suggestion compounds the problem.

[Sith_Happens]

Read the part I quoted. He's not having fun with the lack of challenge from casting No Light. Your suggestion compounds the problem.

That post implied to me that he hasn't actually been using No Light, just noting how good it would be if he did.

[Rubik]

That post implied to me that he hasn't actually been using No Light, just noting how good it would be if he did.I got the idea (from that post and the previous one I responded to) that he has been using No Light, but that the ring would make it even worse.

[Sith_Happens]

I got the idea (from that post and the previous one I responded to) that he has been using No Light, but that the ring would make it even worse.

Either way I'm aware my suggestion would do the opposite of alleviating the problem. Though personally I've found that finding a sufficiently creative way of obviating a challenge can be just as fun as being challenged.

[ryu]

Either way I'm aware my suggestion would do the opposite of alleviating the problem. Though personally I've found that finding a sufficiently creative way of obviating a challenge can be just as fun as being challenged.

Bonus points if it's silly. There was a time I was so unchallenged that I didn't truly consider the battle a victory unless the victim, stripped of magical equipment, was killed by way of being thrown directly into the sun.