[PF] "I want to be an Armored Monk"... O.O

[ArqArturo]

Long story short, one of my player's character snuffed it, and while we were having coffee, this conversation took place

Me: Well, and that's the beginning of the dungeon
Player: Seriously, pounce-attacking dog-things? That was too much (they're facing Marrussaults)
Me: Well, it is pharaoh's army
Player: Yeah yeah... So, I want to try something different
Me: Such as?
Player: I want to try a monk this time... In full plate
Me:... But, you'd lose the Wisdom-based AC, and flurry of blows I think.
Player: I don't care about the AC, I just want to the unarmed damage, the flurry of blows thing would be a CENSORED, though. I like FoB
Me: Well... Let me work something out.

So, being the dilligent DM that I am (sort of), I looked over any archetype that might lead him to a brawling armored monk... But the closest thing is the brawler archetype of the fighter, and it sucks.

So, I've been thinking that I might houserule that FoB can work, but other than that, I think this is a weird idea that... Sounds cool, now that I'm thinking about it.

The player likes using big-hit characters that last for a while, so I'm thinking that a Barbarian with the Armored Hulk variant, and the martial artist archetype might be effective.

[Erik Vale]

Skin of X. I can't remember what it's called but there is a skin that acts as full plate, treated as light armor for proficiencies etc. However since it doesn't go in the armor slot, you could rule that it doesn't interfeer with monk abilities. Said ruling might not be RAW, but it's a magical skin so *shrug*.

Other than that, he has to face ability loss. Possibly convince him to play a unarmed fighter?
That apparently sucks, however, you could always make a new one/improve it.

[Captnq]

Beekeeper's outfit. The only suit of "armor" that you can enchant, yet it's not actually armor. So all the ASAs, none of the class ability nerfing.

Bondleaf Wrap and Gnome Strip Cloth both have no MDB, which I believe is the reason why monks cannot use armor.

Bracers of Armor could be enchanted just like normal armor, if you allow it. by RAW, you can put up to +5 ASA/EBs in bracers of armor.

Halfweight gets any suit of armor down to light armor for a +3. So just make up:

Noweight [SYNERGY]
- Homebrew (3.5)
Price: +2 Bonus
Property: Armor
Caster Level: 17th
Aura: Strong; (DC 22) transmutation
Activation: —
Prerequiste: Halfweight

Noweight will take any suit of armor down to weightless. This means that a monk can wear it without penalty.

[Eldariel]

Willing to port 3.5 stuff over? Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle gets you an unarmed progression for a feat. It's not as good as a Monk's but it's something and if you allow him to advance it with another feat (3.5 Fist of the Forests would work that way for instance, plausibly; 3 levels, it advances UA strike by two categories and thus would hit 2d10), you could let him have Monk progression. Flurry could be mimicked with TWF on a full BAB type anyways and this way he could play a Fighter or a Barbarian or a Cleric or whatever he wants to.

Alternatively, you could just allow trading out weapon proficiencies in a class for Monk proficiencies and UA Damage Progression. It's a pretty fair trade all things considered; worse early, but with the obvious advantages of having a good Unarmed Strike and reaches the 2d10 late.

[Vanitas]

I think the Sohei archetype allows a Monk to wear armor.

[MonochromeTiger]

er...is your friend sure they want to play a full plate monk? looking over the class page now I don't see where armor would prevent flurry of blows use however it cuts just about every other bit of monk usefulness, like their really helpful defense against touch attacks or their mobility. they'd lose evasion, they'd lose their normal AC progression of the class, they'd lose fast movement.. it seems like they're trading some of the nice parts of monk for a more mystical version of hand to hand fighter.
I was wrong about the flurry of blows thing, that is actually unavailable with armor and I just missed that part (benthesquid however had far better reading abilities than I do).

[Drelua]

Well, the Sohei archetype has light armor proficiency, and can flurry in it thanks to a recent FAQ ruling. Combine that with the half-weight property and you've got a monk that can flurry in full plate.

You could also pick an archetype that trades away the features that don't work in armor, which is only Flurry, WIS to AC and fast movement. Master of Many Styles might be a good start to get rid of flurry, and that can combine with Hungry Ghost Monk. That gets rid of Stunning Fist, which probably wouldn't be very useful with the lower wisdom this character would probably have. Or you could open up Ironskin Monk, the Hobgoblin archetype, to other races. That replaces the AC bonus and fast movement with natural armor and damage reduction, just leaving Flurry, which you could maybe homebrew a feat for?

TL;DR Take a good look at the archetypes, you might find something cool. :smallsmile:

[Juntao112]

Unarmed Swordsage

[Benthesquid]

Armor and Shield Proficiency: Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields. When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

That's unfortunate. It also doesn't restrict the armor worn by weight, so I'm not sure that making it weightless would help at all. That being said, (although this would be a fairly clunky way of doing it) what if you played a Fighter with Improved Unarmed Strike and the Two Weapon Fighting progression?

Edit: The FAQ in question. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9rag)

Still not sure how'd you get Full Plate counted as Light Armor, but Mithral will get you halfway there (though not in terms of Proficiency, so he'd still have to burn a feat).

[Akadzjian]

Monk archetype: Martial Artist. Multiclass into Fighter and Barbarian for a level or two with the feat that makes their full BAB classes count as partial monk levels.

EDIT: Sorry incomplete thought.

Essentially, Flurry is cool, but the fullplate would deprioritize dexterity. Allowing him to pump strength. Martial Artist removes the lawful requirement, so Barbarian works. Fighter gives proficiencies, and monk levels gives unarmed damage.

[grarrrg]

A Monk in armor loses the AC bonus (both the WIS and the for-leveling), Flurry of Blows, and Fast Movement.


I think the Sohei archetype allows a Monk to wear armor.

Through a recent FAQ ruling, Sohei CAN now Flurry in Light Armor.
They still do not get Fast Movement, or the normal Monk AC bonus.
And their Unarmed damage stops at level 4.


Monastic Legacy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat) feat counts half of your Non-Monk levels as Monk levels for Unarmed Damage progression. It requires Still Mind, which Monks get at level 3. This can help you multiclass out of Monk, while still getting something.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh, just let him flurry in armor. It's not that big a deal.

[Suddo]

2 level Dip in Master of Many Styles (followed with Fighter) is pretty absurd. And you could just play it as a fighter with -1 BAB for a bunch of feats. Oh and level 2 Crane Stance and Crane Wing (the second one) just silly.

Edit: Oh I forgot you couldn't flurry in armor (I thought it was just Evasion and Wis to AC). Have fun trying to figure it out. Maybe Fighter with Two-Weapon Fighting and Unarmed Combat?

[Vanitas]

Master of Many Styles can't flurry anyway, so there is that.

[Raimun]

How about Fighter with the Unarmed Fighter-archetype?

Sure, it's not Monk but with just two feats (Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency) you could do unarmed combat in a full plate.

I'm sure it will not be the best build but hey, it must still be better than a regular Monk with the armor on? :smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

How about Fighter with the Unarmed Fighter-archetype?
...
I'm sure it will not be the best build but hey, it must still be better than a regular Monk with the armor on? :smalltongue:

Unarmed Fighter is a horribad archetype. It's only good use is as a 1 or 2 level dip, and that's _only_ due to the req-less bonus Style feat.

[MonochromeTiger]

Unarmed Fighter is a horribad archetype. It's only good use is as a 1 or 2 level dip, and that's _only_ due to the req-less bonus Style feat.

yes but short of house ruling people are finding issues with all the alternatives too. really if it gets to the point that there are 50 options and all of them are considered to be at a loss I'd personally just have the person play monk and tell them it's normal monk or monk with armor and flurry of blows but no other concessions.

[Arutema]

The Advanced Class Guide playtest comes out tomorrow. They've leaked that one of the classes on tap is the Brawler which may well be what you're looking for.

[Vanitas]

The Advanced Class Guide playtest comes out tomorrow. They've leaked that one of the classes on tap is the Brawler which may well be what you're looking for.

It comes out tomorrow?!?!!? :smallbiggrin:

[ArqArturo]

I'm starting to think where he got the idea (He just sent me this link (http://www.d20monkey.com/2013/03/03/limit-break-ing-point/)).

[MonochromeTiger]

I'm starting to think where he got the idea (He just sent me this link (http://www.d20monkey.com/2013/03/03/limit-break-ing-point/)).

wow your player really does have some specific goals for character strength o_O.

[137beth]

I'm starting to think where he got the idea (He just sent me this link (http://www.d20monkey.com/2013/03/03/limit-break-ing-point/)).

Well, as long as he doesn't try multiclassing to paladin after two levels and riding around on a celestial horse and shouting about how evil everyone else is, I think you're in the clear:smallwink:

More seriously, you could house rule that FoB works with armor, but unfortunately it also negates almost everything else that's good about the monk. You could rule that heavy armor works with all monk abilities without increasing the class' power very much, but that may not be your cup of metaphorical tea. If he doesn't mind supernatural stuff you could decide his character has an inborn permanent Mage Armor-type effect.
And, as has been mentioned already, and will probably be mentioned again, numerous options from ToB could sort this out.

[grarrrg]

Well, as long as he doesn't try multiclassing to paladin after two levels and riding around on a celestial horse and shouting about how evil everyone else is, I think you're in the clear:smallwink:

There's a PrC for that (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori).

[shaikujin]

Is 3.x material allowed in your PF game?

Shou Disciple allows Flurry in armor (restricted to light I think).

Argent Fist retains monk AC bonus while amored.

Haven't found a way to allow the movement speed while in armor. But there are many other ways to boost movement.

Harness of Armor works like Bracers. Can be fluffed to look like platemail.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Other's already gave any advise I could.

I do vouch for just taking Superior Unarmed Strike though and going for another class though.

However, if you stay as monk I feel the need to warn that you're gimping the character by giving them armour. Full Plate gives an AC of +8, there's no more wisdom to AC or passive Monk AC bonus. The Fullplate is also heavy that your DEX has almost no impact too.

Late game: Monks AC Bonus + WIS + DEX > Full Plate

Especially when you just wear clothing that's a kind of robe so you can also enchant it like it's armour.

[The-Mage-King]

Deadly Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist) Soulknife, maybe? Unarmed, deals damage...

[animewatcha]

Does pathfinder have a version of the ataghn from sandstorm? Was an exotic weapon that provided shield bonus and could be enhanced like a shield. Also, going by description it didn't count as a shield as far as FoB and such are concerned. Grated you lost use of that hand for stuff.

[ArqArturo]

Yeah, I think it's better to do that, and also probably allowing Eldritch Claws as well, to give the build more of an edge against enemies that have damage reduction.

[anacalgion]

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but what about the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/brawler), maybe trading all of the other stuff like menacing stance for flurry of blows? I mean it's not great, but it does what he wants.

[Morph Bark]

At least the concept is better than the Duskblade 2/Warblade 5 with nothing but a tower shield that one of my players played once.

[Psyren]

Sorry if it's been mentioned, but what about the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/brawler), maybe trading all of the other stuff like menacing stance for flurry of blows? I mean it's not great, but it does what he wants.

Brawler doesn't get IUS - I'd say it's more intended for Brass Knuckles or Spiked Gauntlets than true unarmed fighting. The Unarmed Fighter is a closer fit I'd say.

But the ideal "Armored Monk", I would say, would be a Deadly Fist Soulknife, with or without Gifted Blade.

[Crustypeanut]

Brawler gets improved unarmed strike, actually!

His unarmed strike improves just as the monks does and he can wear full plate, though is not automatically proficient in it.

[ArqArturo]

Brawler gets improved unarmed strike, actually!

His unarmed strike improves just as the monks does and he can wear full plate, though is not automatically proficient in it.

And then we pair him up with TWF, and yes, I'll check the archetype again.

[Crustypeanut]

And then we pair him up with TWF, and yes, I'll check the archetype again.

No, sorry, not the archetype. The Class, Brawler. Its in the Playtest. I should have mentioned that XD

And this class gains two-weapon fighting when using unarmed strike or monk weapons at level 2 onwards. Its in the Advanced Class Playtest that just came out minutes ago (And crashed the Paizo forums)

I derped when I thought Psyren was talking about the class, not the archetype. That archetype might as well be obsolete, except for its free Style feat.

[RFLS]

Unarmed Swordsage

It's a PF game, and Unarmed Swordsages lose armor proficiency, so...that's about as unhelpful as you could get right there.

@OP - lots of good suggestions going around. Barbarian really might be your best bet; perhaps a dip into Fighter for some bonus feats would help, too. He could take the TWF chain and comine it with IUS - FOB, with lots of feats spent on it.

[Psyren]

Brawler gets improved unarmed strike, actually!

His unarmed strike improves just as the monks does and he can wear full plate, though is not automatically proficient in it.

There's some confusion here :smalltongue: you're talking about the new Brawler class being playtested for ACG; I was talking about the Brawler ancalgion linked, i.e. the rather bad fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat.

[Lightlawbliss]

It's a PF game, and Unarmed Swordsages lose armor proficiency, so...that's about as unhelpful as you could get right there.

...

ftr 1, unarmed swordsage 19 with the various unarmed feats like snap kick and SUS.

[RFLS]

ftr 1, unarmed swordsage 19 with the various unarmed feats like snap kick and SUS.

Which...doesn't change the fact that it's a PF game, and that there are better ways to pull this off within PF.

[anacalgion]

There's some confusion here :smalltongue: you're talking about the new Brawler class being playtested for ACG; I was talking about the Brawler ancalgion linked, i.e. the rather bad fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat.

In my defense,I didn't know that class existed when I posted. Yeah, that fits what we're looking for.

[erikun]

I'm starting to think where he got the idea (He just sent me this link (http://www.d20monkey.com/2013/03/03/limit-break-ing-point/)).
Are you willing to allow Tome of Battle material into the game? Because this looks like something I'd expect from a Crusader with a lot of those Stone Dragon maneuvers. No weapon restrictions, and you can smash straight through stone or solid steel while ignoring the normal hardness of the material.

Other than that, just allowing the Monk to flurry in heavy armor should be fine. It's hardly overbalancing anything. I'd even go so far as to give them free proficiency in heavy armor and a few weapons in exchange for the Monk's AC bonus and a few other abilities they'd be losing anyways. I mean, the "worst" that could happen is that the character turns out decent in combat. :smalltongue:

[ArqArturo]

Are you willing to allow Tome of Battle material into the game? Because this looks like something I'd expect from a Crusader with a lot of those Stone Dragon maneuvers. No weapon restrictions, and you can smash straight through stone or solid steel while ignoring the normal hardness of the material.

Other than that, just allowing the Monk to flurry in heavy armor should be fine. It's hardly overbalancing anything. I'd even go so far as to give them free proficiency in heavy armor and a few weapons in exchange for the Monk's AC bonus and a few other abilities they'd be losing anyways. I mean, the "worst" that could happen is that the character turns out decent in combat. :smalltongue:

I don't fear a monk in combat, I fear grappling monks, though.

But that's the reason why Freedom of Movement exists :).

[Eldonauran]

You could try to play an Ironskin Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-hobgoblin/ironskin-monk-monk-hobgoblin).

Trade of AC Bonus (Wis bonus too) to get a Natural Armor increase that has no language about armor restriction. You still lose flurry in armor.

[Menzath]

You could try to play an Ironskin Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-hobgoblin/ironskin-monk-monk-hobgoblin).

Trade of AC Bonus (Wis bonus too) to get a Natural Armor increase that has no language about armor restriction. You still lose flurry in armor.

Okay first off not very familiar with PF, but from the link there I found
This http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior"] (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior)

Now if 3.x feats are allowed double up with superior unarmed strike, versatile unarmed strike and if you can fudge the feat requirements Slashing flurry, although there may be a better way to gain flurry in PF that's one of the easy ways to gain it with a feat.
Thanks to psi powers you can be a larger size category for more str and reach as well as bonus to grapple, and other powers can help with attack and damage rolls as well.
And best of all it can be done in heavy armor with no issues.

[grarrrg]

There's some confusion here :smalltongue: you're talking about the new Brawler class being playtested for ACG; I was talking about the Brawler ancalgion linked, i.e. the rather bad fighter archetype from Ultimate Combat.

More confusion (I hope).

Unarmed Fighter Archetype is really rather poor, best for a 2 level dip for IUS and a free Style feat. It's VERY downhill after that.

Brawler the Fighter Archetype is actually pretty decent. Weapon Training starts at +1 to-hit, +3 damage, with +1/+1 every four levels after (yes, it out damages the Unarmed Fighter at Unarmed fighting).
Level 7 makes ALL adjacent enemies take to-hit penalties, and Concentration check penalties.
Level 9 causes opponents to provoke AoO's while taking a 5-foot step away from you.
Level 13 is Stand Still feat (or your choice if already owned), and a bonus to CMB when using Stand Still.

[Psyren]

I disagree, Unarmed Fighter has some really neat stuff. Yeah, Harsh Training and Tough Guy aren't much to write home about, but Clever Wrestler is fantastic - free AoOs on any creature that attempts to grapple him even if they have grab/IG, and what's more, any damage he deals gets applied as a penalty to their grapple check. So if something nasty pounces on him and he has combat reflexes, he is likely going to be pummeling the gently caress out of them multiple times on their turn, and chances are he'll escape ungrappled after all that. And even if they do grapple him, he can still make AoOs and keep his full AC/CMD. Give him an AoMF with Agile on it and focus on Dex and he'll be nigh-impossible to hold on to. And with Agile Maneuvers and all their bonus feats, Trick Throw and Takedown stand a good chance at landing.

[Novawurmson]

Throwing in a another vote for Deadly Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist). Full BAB+never needing to buy an overpriced amulet is pretty hard to beat+ability to wear armor+the choice to get limited manifesting from another archetype (gifted blade) is pretty difficult to top.

[Vanitas]

Looks like the new Brawler playtest is exactly what you want.

[Arutema]

Looks like the new Brawler playtest is exactly what you want.

Indeed. They only get light armor by default, but nothing stops them from multiclassing or taking feats to pick up heavy armor, and the text on Brawler's Flurry does not limit it to light armor.

[Maginomicon]

There's a Pugilist base class (Dragon Magazine #310 page 37). He gets proficiency in all simple weapons (including unarmed strike) and all armor. He also gets Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4) and Endurance for free. The Pugilist has something similar to FOB through the "Combo" special ability option.

There's also the Kensai base class (Dragon Magazine #310 page 36). He gets proficiency in simple weapons (including unarmed strike), light armor (you can always pick up medium and heavy armor proficiency), and a single martial or exotic weapon of his choice (choose the Sharktooth Gauntlet; Dragon Magazine #315; 10 gp 1d4 18-20/x2). The Kensai has something similar to FOB through the "Rain of Blows" and "Storm of Blows" special ability options. Bonus points if you head into the Kensai prestige class from here.