Do you think being exalted or vile breaks a druids code?

[CyberThread]

So druids have to be one part neutral, yet, I feel that in a way, if you become exalted, you skip a step, and no longer just good, but SUPER GOOD!.

[Harbinger]

How does being good stop you from being neutral?

[Brookshw]

It's a lot of flexibility, go nuts.

[Benthesquid]

Druids are required to be neutral along one axis. As far as I can tell, they can be as far along the other axis in either direction as they like. So they could be Exalted or Vile as long as they weren't also Lawful or Chaotic.

[eggynack]

No, I don't see why it would. In fact, Lion of talisid is a druid (Or maybe theoretically ranger, but it's for druids) prestige class that requires an exalted feat. An exalted druid is just regular good. There's no real alignment change involved in a shift to exalted.

[Red Fel]

Druids are required to be neutral along one axis. As far as I can tell, they can be as far along the other axis in either direction as they like. So they could be Exalted or Vile as long as they weren't also Lawful or Chaotic.

This. An Exalted Druid is still NG, but the G is boldface and a larger font. A Vile Druid is still NE, same issue. It is entirely possible, even encouraged, to be a steward of nature and become Exalted, or a corruptor of nature and become Vile. For examples of the former, look at Sentinel of Bharrai and Swanmay in BoED; although not exclusive to Druids, they carry a good guardian-of-nature flavor.

EDIT: And, as Eggy mentioned, the Lion of Talisid.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Considering the exemplars of Neutral Good are guardinal (IE Animal-themed Celestials) I think it is very fitting for a druid to become [Exalted], [Vile] on the other hand is iffier IMO

[eggynack]

Considering the exemplars of Neutral Good are guardinal (IE Animal-themed Celestials) I think it is very fitting for a druid to become [Exalted], [Vile] on the other hand is iffier IMO
I don't see how a vile druid is iffy in any way. Neutral evil is an alignment as available to druids as any other. Good druids are quite possibly the best from an optimization perspective, but an evil druid could be pretty nifty. I don't think they get access to anything powerful that a true neutral druid wouldn't, but still.

[Ravens_cry]

Considering the exemplars of Neutral Good are guardinal (IE Animal-themed Celestials) I think it is very fitting for a druid to become [Exalted], [Vile] on the other hand is iffier IMO
Not really. Go for the more horrific side of nature, like the wasp that lays eggs inside a living caterpillar, which hatch, eat the caterpillar alive from the inside, leaving the vital organs intact so it stays alive as long as possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid_wasp)
Even better, they have a virus incorporated in their DNA that weakens the host caterpillars immune system, giving the eggs a better chance at survival to hatch and feed.
Seriously, this is horror movie stuff.

[MonochromeTiger]

I don't see how a vile druid is iffy in any way. Neutral evil is an alignment as available to druids as any other. Good druids are quite possibly the best from an optimization perspective, but an evil druid could be pretty nifty. I don't think they get access to anything powerful that a true neutral druid wouldn't, but still.

I don't even see why neutral is a requirement still, I mean there's more to nature than some perceived "balance" that somehow requires a druid care about every part of it equally, heck a druid could easily choose to focus on a more aggressive or passive part of nature and get chaotic evil or lawful good while still fitting the nature theme (city getting a bit too close to the tigers you like? burn it down and slaughter the town for being there)..I mean it's not paladin they're being shown as an expression of nature which can be as varied as people not some idealized religion that has only one possible way to be viewed.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't see how a vile druid is iffy in any way. Neutral evil is an alignment as available to druids as any other. Good druids are quite possibly the best from an optimization perspective, but an evil druid could be pretty nifty. I don't think they get access to anything powerful that a true neutral druid wouldn't, but still.

I was looking from a fluff perspective, I am having trouble imagining a Druid so Evil he would be [vile].


Not really. Go for the more horrific side of nature, like the wasp that lays eggs inside a living caterpillar, which hatch, eat the caterpillar alive from the inside, leaving the vital organs intact so it stays alive as long as possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid_wasp)
Even better, they have a virus incorporated in their DNA that weakens the host caterpillars immune system, giving the eggs a better chance at survival to hatch and feed.
Seriously, this is horror movie stuff.

Now I don't :smalleek:

[MonochromeTiger]

I was looking from a fluff perspective, I am having trouble imagining a Druid so Evil he would be [vile].



Now I don't :smalleek:

oh ye of little faith in evil, so long as there is something to be gained from the suffering of others evil will always find a way *proud glare into the sunset*

[Ravens_cry]

I was looking from a fluff perspective, I am having trouble imagining a Druid so Evil he would be [vile].
Now I don't :smalleek:
*takes a bow* Happy to be of service.:smallamused:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not really. Go for the more horrific side of nature, like the wasp that lays eggs inside a living caterpillar, which hatch, eat the caterpillar alive from the inside, leaving the vital organs intact so it stays alive as long as possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid_wasp)
Even better, they have a virus incorporated in their DNA that weakens the host caterpillars immune system, giving the eggs a better chance at survival to hatch and feed.
Seriously, this is horror movie stuff.
Demons? Devils? Forget it. You want pure, undiluted evil, you can't beat wasps.

[Phelix-Mu]

Mayor Red Shirt of a town is pro-expansion, and that forest, the Black Forest, over there would yield valuable lumber and make a good place to pasture sheep once it is cleared.

Unfortunately for the mayor, the local druid, Black McBlackly von Black, Guardian of the Black Grove within the Black Forest, hears of these plans from his little bird friends/spies. Well, Black doesn't take to Mayor Red Shirt's plans, and wants to make a point. He wildshapes into a small, harmless looking animal, and wanders around the Mayor's house for a few days. Soon, the Mayor's children are leaving out bits of food and trying to pet the undercover Druid Black. Well, this sounds like a good time to deliver contagion to each child. Or pox, or plague, or what have you. Black makes a point to infect each child in the Mayor's family. With careful use of concealing magic and healing, Black can keep each kid alive, but terribly ill, for quite some time.

As the Mayor suffers, his plans and political power are likely to suffer and decrease. By adding a bit of strife to the burden of office...let's say a pack of hungry wolves that decimates some flocks of sheep or tree limbs that fall on travelers and hunters...Black can make the Mayor stressed out at work and despairing at home. The Mayor's loved ones suffer and die slowly as the town languishes. If he doesn't go mad, or at the very least resign or get replaced, Black can always target him directly, maybe framing him as a lycanthrope by clever manipulation of the stupid townsfolk.

If the replacement mayor is also pro-expansion, then it's starting to sound like it's time to burn the town down. Or maybe drive some of it's residents to cannibalism during the depths of the next winter....

So, yeah, Vile Druid? No problem.

[MonochromeTiger]

Mayor Red Shirt of a town is pro-expansion, and that forest, the Black Forest, over there would yield valuable lumber and make a good place to pasture sheep once it is cleared.

Unfortunately for the mayor, the local druid, Black McBlackly von Black, Guardian of the Black Grove within the Black Forest, hears of these plans from his little bird friends/spies. Well, Black doesn't take to Mayor Red Shirt's plans, and wants to make a point. He wildshapes into a small, harmless looking animal, and wanders around the Mayor's house for a few days. Soon, the Mayor's children are leaving out bits of food and trying to pet the undercover Druid Black. Well, this sounds like a good time to deliver contagion to each child. Or pox, or plague, or what have you. Black makes a point to infect each child in the Mayor's family. With careful use of concealing magic and healing, Black can keep each kid alive, but terribly ill, for quite some time.

As the Mayor suffers, his plans and political power are likely to suffer and decrease. By adding a bit of strife to the burden of office...let's say a pack of hungry wolves that decimates some flocks of sheep or tree limbs that fall on travelers and hunters...Black can make the Mayor stressed out at work and despairing at home. The Mayor's loved ones suffer and die slowly as the town languishes. If he doesn't go mad, or at the very least resign or get replaced, Black can always target him directly, maybe framing him as a lycanthrope by clever manipulation of the stupid townsfolk.

If the replacement mayor is also pro-expansion, then it's starting to sound like it's time to burn the town down. Or maybe drive some of it's residents to cannibalism during the depths of the next winter....

So, yeah, Vile Druid? No problem.

...I feel as though evil druids are being mocked here and yet I've actually seen this be done in a parody campaign...

[Phelix-Mu]

...I feel as though evil druids are being mocked here and yet I've actually seen this be done in a parody campaign...

Wait, do I need more evil? I might actually have to look at the druid spell list this time.

[MonochromeTiger]

Wait, do I need more evil? I might actually have to look at the druid spell list this time.

I personally suggest adding in some flame strikes and fire storms and baleful polymorphs to animals that can be eaten by your chosen animal companion in place of rations but eh, can't question the sincerity of the evil so long as it gets the job done.

[Phelix-Mu]

I personally suggest adding in some flame strikes and fire storms and baleful polymorphs to animals that can be eaten by your chosen animal companion in place of rations but eh, can't question the sincerity of the evil so long as it gets the job done.

Eh, burning aggressive townspeople is pretty standard druid modus operandi in my book. To be evil, you must inflict unnecessary suffering and fear as well, in my view. So I do like that thing with the baleful polymorph. Too bad you can't guarantee that they retain sentience.... *releases townspeople/bunnies into the deep, winter forest on the night of the full moon, not far from the hungry wolves*

I guess the next step involves controlled exposure to animated green slime, forcing them to watch as their extremities turn into green slime. Maybe paralyze them first?

Ah, well, probably have to stop here, or I'll probably be guilty of ripping scenes right out of Saw and adding in random cute animals to account for the druid flavor.

[eggynack]

I'd open with a blizzard or five. Consume the whole town in layers of snow. Then I'd use some of the more evil feeling debuffs, particularly things that nauseate. Maybe I'd kill some folks with blood snow. If I really want to go as anti-druid as possible, I'd use blackwater tentacle to start a wightpocalypse. There's an insane amount of wacky stuff you can do as a druid. By the by, I think the disease causing spell you're looking for is pestilence. It infects the target with a deadly disease that spreads to anyone the target comes in contact with. It doesn't even kill particularly quickly, so you could get a good spread out of it. Just cast the spell on folks spread throughout town, and watch everyone die a slow and painful death.

[Angelalex242]

No no no no.

Tie up Mayor Red Shirt naked. Thrown honey all over him. Leave him on top of a fire ant nest. Cackle maniacally. Vile Druid, right there.

[MonochromeTiger]

Eh, burning aggressive townspeople is pretty standard druid modus operandi in my book. To be evil, you must inflict unnecessary suffering and fear as well, in my view. So I do like that thing with the baleful polymorph. Too bad you can't guarantee that they retain sentience.... *releases townspeople/bunnies into the deep, winter forest on the night of the full moon, not far from the hungry wolves*

I guess the next step involves controlled exposure to animated green slime, forcing them to watch as their extremities turn into green slime. Maybe paralyze them first?

Ah, well, probably have to stop here, or I'll probably be guilty of ripping scenes right out of Saw and adding in random cute animals to account for the druid flavor.
the weakest part of the "druid" stereotype has to be the odd belief most people seem to have that "cute and fluffy" is all that qualifies as nature or even that a druid has to protect nature to feel a connection to it. nature can be vicious and cruel, it can be kind and nurturing, and it absolutely thrives on natural selection which doesn't care at all how cute something is. if someone steps foot in an animal's territory it may very well hunt them down and kill them simply to assert "this is my place, everyone else keep out", if a druid is really connected with nature sure they can show it the other way or they can let the wild tendencies that are suppressed by civilized thinking actually show, the weak become prey or practice for fights, the strong become rivals or enemies, you take everything you can and leave only what you have to in order to sustain your own way of living.

[MonochromeTiger]

No no no no.

Tie up Mayor Red Shirt naked. Thrown honey all over him. Leave him on top of a fire ant nest. Cackle maniacally. Vile Druid, right there.

I wonder how many people know pigs will gladly eat meat if it's tasty enough...tie the mayor up naked, cover him in honey, throw him into the pig pens and make the whole town watch on threat of death.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd open with a blizzard or five. Consume the whole town in layers of snow. Then I'd use some of the more evil feeling debuffs, particularly things that nauseate. Maybe I'd kill some folks with blood snow. If I really want to go as anti-druid as possible, I'd use blackwater tentacle to start a wightpocalypse. There's an insane amount of wacky stuff you can do as a druid. By the by, I think the disease causing spell you're looking for is pestilence. It infects the target with a deadly disease that spreads to anyone the target comes in contact with. It doesn't even kill particularly quickly, so you could get a good spread out of it. Just cast the spell on folks spread throughout town, and watch everyone die a slow and painful death.

The problem with an indiscriminate sickness is that, inevitably, some cleric of something or other shows up and spoils the fun. News of plagues travels quickly, and any well-connected town would be subject to regional countermeasures that would...well, be troublesome. One family at a time, now that is plausible.

Hmm. Maybe turn some of the townspeople into cute animals, and others into predators.... Does that lycanthrope curse spell appear on the druid list? Hmm...were-doom, was it?

Or just version 752 of the hungry plants thing. At higher levels, the townspeople aren't even sporting, and the limits of torment are pretty much arbitrary. Last breath the target until they come back as an orc, sicken them so they can't speak, and march them back into town to meet the angry townsfolk looking for a scapegoat. Invisible Spell summon swarms in people's bedrooms. Get animals so hyped up on drugs that people that eat them suffer the effects. Strategically weaken new buildings with warp wood and the like to cause them to collapse on builders. Get the townspeople hooked on drugs and then start cutting the drugs with poison, causing them to overdose.

I do like blood snow. Some hoops to jump through to make it feasible, but nothing that isn't worth an evil druid's time.

[georgie_leech]

If you baleful polymorphed someone into a sea cucumber, agitated it so that it vomited up its digestive tract, then turned them back to normal, would said digestive tract remain expunged?

[Phelix-Mu]

How are you reversing the polymorph? I'm curious if there is a simple method that I'm overlooking, cause it sure would be cool to force someone to start eating a rabbit, then have the rabbit turn back into their loved one.

Wait...not cool. Ah, all this evil druid role play is making me all confused.:smalltongue:

[Tectonic Robot]

If you baleful polymorphed someone into a sea cucumber, agitated it so that it vomited up its digestive tract, then turned them back to normal, would said digestive tract remain expunged?

...What the hell kinda question is...

And the other examples of evil here are cartoonishly so! But, ah, that's probably [vile] for ya, right?

I, personally, if being an evil druid, would work off a mold and fungus angle. Creeping decay, plant life slowly growing, nasty plants, that sort of thing. It's a pretty cool aesthetic.

[eggynack]

The problem with an indiscriminate sickness is that, inevitably, some cleric of something or other shows up and spoils the fun. News of plagues travels quickly, and any well-connected town would be subject to regional countermeasures that would...well, be troublesome. One family at a time, now that is plausible.
Yeah, that is a problem with the spell. However, if you can get a broad enough population diseased, then it could be tricky to stop the spread. It's doable, particularly if the town does it smart, but you can up the challenge some. I mean, you are still a druid.


Hmm. Maybe turn some of the townspeople into cute animals, and others into predators.... Does that lycanthrope curse spell appear on the druid list? Hmm...were-doom, was it?
yep, and that is the name of the spell. It's a bit high in level, and a bit non-permanent in duration though.


Or just version 752 of the hungry plants thing. At higher levels, the townspeople aren't even sporting, and the limits of torment are pretty much arbitrary. Last breath the target until they come back as an orc, sicken them so they can't speak, and march them back into town to meet the angry townsfolk looking for a scapegoat. Invisible Spell summon swarms in people's bedrooms. Get animals so hyped up on drugs that people that eat them suffer the effects. Strategically weaken new buildings with warp wood and the like to cause them to collapse on builders. Get the townspeople hooked on drugs and then start cutting the drugs with poison, causing them to overdose.
You could get pretty creative with arbitrary destruction. I mean, druids get just about every single natural disaster spell, and they're not too high in level. Toss a control winds, or a control weather, or an earthquake (off of an oread), or just about anything, and you can devastate a decently sized town pretty trivially.

I do like blood snow. Some hoops to jump through to make it feasible, but nothing that isn't worth an evil druids time.
There're some good ways to pull it off, even in a combat scenario. As I've mentioned, blizzard is something powerful enough that you might want to cast it anyway, and tossing blood snow onto that is highly deadly. However, if I'm attacking a town, fimbulwinter might be a better option. A mile/level radius turned into winter for 4d12 weeks is some classic mayhem.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. Now I have a hankering to play a druid. Unfortunately, I've been banned from playing them in my normal gaming group. *mock sob* Luckily, I usually DM, so I can get in my fix with various npcs and BBEGs, hehehe.

[georgie_leech]

...What the hell kinda question is...

And the other examples of evil here are cartoonishly so! But, ah, that's probably [vile] for ya, right?



As long as we're doing suffering for suffering's sake, forcing someone to puke up their own stomach certainly seems to fit the bill.

[MonochromeTiger]

And the other examples of evil here are cartoonishly so! But, ah, that's probably [vile] for ya, right?


that's the issue with evil in an RPG, most of the ways people actually admit as evil are over the top to the point of parody and most of the smaller ways just get brushed under the table as "well I can see that as a kind of neutral action so no", kind of hard to do something evil and get it across to people so that they actually see it as such.

[anacalgion]

yep, and that is the name of the spell. It's a bit high in level, and a bit non-permanent in duration though.


Do they remember the stuff that happens? Remembering eating your family would be pretty nasty.

Also, this thread is terrifying. Good work everyone. Nature is scary.

[Angelalex242]

Well, considering the types of people with Vile Feats essentially amount to 'think up the sickest evil bastards you've ever heard of who deserved the death penalty and got it.'

Saddam Hussein=Evil
Hitler=Vile Feats

You've gotta kick the evil up several notches to qualify for Vile.

The same is true of the other side.

Local Pastor:Good (probably)
Mother Theresa:Exalted

Or In King Arthur's Court:
Arthur:Good (and even a Paladin!)
Galahad:Exalted (still a Paladin)

[Phelix-Mu]

The problem is that the discussion started with "make it vile." Vile is pretty much evil^2, and ofc that is going to look pretty over the top.

This is especially true for a druid, who, being vile, now needs to watch out for either too much chaos (wanton destruction for no reason) or law (using rule and force to compel people to behave as s/he wishes). NE pretty much is undiluted evil, as the evil doesn't need a point, but can't be too arbitrary.

I guess I wonder what is meant by "cartoonishly." Exactly what evil doesn't sound trite in internet discussions? How much detail do we need to get into before we convey that Black McBlackly von Black lives to screw with their lives and make them weep tears of blood? Oh, and represent the natural order. That too.

[MonochromeTiger]

Do they remember the stuff that happens? Remembering eating your family would be pretty nasty.

Also, this thread is terrifying. Good work everyone. Nature is scary.

spell description I saw said nothing about "does not remember what happened" after, far as I can tell it's a polymorph to one of the many types of weres then sending them into a bloodlust for anything and everything within reach...you know what? bonus points if it's used on the most innocent and kind person in the room, just bonus points, let them know everything they just did and let them live with the reminder that you can do it again if they ever get close to someone emotionally.

[Mando Knight]

Demons? Devils? Forget it. You want pure, undiluted evil, you can't beat wasps.

Tarantula Hawks: like the name implies, they hunt tarantulas. Not so bad, because spiders are icky, you say? These wasps sting the spiders into submission, but not with a paralytic agent, just pure liquid pain. And then they don't even put the spider out of its misery... they lay an egg inside to, once again, eat the arachnid from the inside out.

Predatory animals are some of the most vicious beings in existence.

[eggynack]

Do they remember the stuff that happens? Remembering eating your family would be pretty nasty.
It looks like they do, yeah. There isn't anything in the spell that erases memory, and memory loss isn't part of lycanthropy, so memories intact. I don't even know if they lose their self while under the effects of the spell, so they could be fully conscious of the stuff they do.


Also, this thread is terrifying. Good work everyone. Nature is scary.
Thanks. I try. I mean, I've gotta have some outlet for the massive number of spells I've looked through.

The problem is that the discussion started with "make it vile." Vile is pretty much evil^2, and ofc that is going to look pretty over the top

This is especially true for a druid, who, being vile, now needs to watch out for either too much chaos (wanton destruction for no reason) or law (using rule and force to compel people to behave as s/he wishes). NE pretty much is undiluted evil, as the evil doesn't need a point, but can't be too arbitrary.

I guess I wonder what is meant by "cartoonishly." Exactly what evil doesn't sound trite in internet discussions? How much detail do we need to get into before we convey that Black McBlackly von Black lives to screw with their lives and weep tears of blood? Oh, and represent the natural order. That too.
Yeah, that is the nature of things. I don't even think a vile druid would necessarily go to all of these extremes, but it's always important to know what the theoretical extremes are, even when those extremes are in the terms of rampant evil. I haven't even touched on some of the fun stuff that druids can do, like dire hunger, which causes the target to attack the nearest creature possible, or mummify, which is an awesome save or die without the death descriptor, or death by thorns, which is a classically evil save and lose/save or die spell. Also, we could use the aspect of the wolf/ghost companion combo to do all of this stuff as a ghost. The main spell I'm considering as the method to return to life is cocoon which would basically let you fly around as a ghost for a week. Fun stuff.

[MonochromeTiger]

Tarantula Hawks: like the name implies, they hunt tarantulas. Not so bad, because spiders are icky, you say? These wasps sting the spiders into submission, but not with a paralytic agent, just pure liquid pain. And then they don't even put the spider out of its misery... they lay an egg inside to, once again, eat the arachnid from the inside out.

Predatory animals are some of the most vicious beings in existence.

and that's part of what makes them so darn lovable, I mean sure don't hug them cause they'll maul you for existing too close to them at the wrong time but still.

oh right and funny thing...druids may actually be the most capable class for long term evil short of someone turning lich, reincarnate (atleast the pathfinder version) can just be stored and prepared so that even if they die of old age they can come back as a young adult with only a temporary weakness to continue spreading suffering to anyone unfortunate enough to be in their mildly bored path.

[Waker]

Being a vile druid is simple. Everyone thinks that nature is fuzzy animals and flowers, conveniently forgetting other aspects of nature like mold-causing blights (Phytophtora infestans, Great Irish Famine), protozoans (Malaria), bacterial (Bubonic Plague)... So you can throw out all sorts of plagues and outbreaks and everything is perfectly natural. And you can hang out with all the fun fey, like Red Caps and Mab.

Or how about spreading your favorite ecosystem? Toss around blizzards for tunda or if deserts are your thing, salt/dehydrate can work too.

[Benthesquid]

oh right and funny thing...druids may actually be the most capable class for long term evil short of someone turning lich, reincarnate (atleast the pathfinder version) can just be stored and prepared so that even if they die of old age they can come back as a young adult with only a temporary weakness to continue spreading suffering to anyone unfortunate enough to be in their mildly bored path.

In Pathfinder, Purely in terms of coming back no matter what you do, you want to look for the Level Twenty Master of the Four Winds (Monk Archetype), who gets Reincarnate whenever he dies, to a spot within twenty miles of his death (if he's been there at least once) without needing to prepare it.

(So yes, shooting him into space or burying him twenty miles beneath the Earth would solve the problem, but he'd still keep coming back, just not in a necessarily helpful way).

[Ravens_cry]

Tarantula Hawks: like the name implies, they hunt tarantulas. Not so bad, because spiders are icky, you say? These wasps sting the spiders into submission, but not with a paralytic agent, just pure liquid pain. And then they don't even put the spider out of its misery... they lay an egg inside to, once again, eat the arachnid from the inside out.

Predatory animals are some of the most vicious beings in existence.
Hell hath no fury like a Mom.:smallbiggrin:

[MonochromeTiger]

In Pathfinder, Purely in terms of coming back no matter what you do, you want to look for the Level Twenty Master of the Four Winds (Monk Archetype), who gets Reincarnate whenever he dies, to a spot within twenty miles of his death (if he's been there at least once) without needing to prepare it.

(So yes, shooting him into space or burying him twenty miles beneath the Earth would solve the problem, but he'd still keep coming back, just not in a necessarily helpful way).

see that's why you use breath spells on yourself and him, a few flight spells like winds of vengeance, and then drag him into space to throw him into the sun so that when he returns the sun's gravity will pull him in and kill him again in an endless cycle of painful burning death...also be sure to point out how much fun you had with his class mechanic when you fly back to safe ground.

[Thrawn183]

Not really. Go for the more horrific side of nature, like the wasp that lays eggs inside a living caterpillar, which hatch, eat the caterpillar alive from the inside, leaving the vital organs intact so it stays alive as long as possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid_wasp)
Even better, they have a virus incorporated in their DNA that weakens the host caterpillars immune system, giving the eggs a better chance at survival to hatch and feed.
Seriously, this is horror movie stuff.

I always say, "Nature wants to kill you, eat you, and lay its eggs in your corpse. And if you're very, very lucky in that order." Joss Whedon wishes he could write villains as scary as nature.

[Deophaun]

Well, considering the types of people with Vile Feats essentially amount to 'think up the sickest evil bastards you've ever heard of who deserved the death penalty and got it.'

Saddam Hussein=Evil
Hitler=Vile Feats

You've gotta kick the evil up several notches to qualify for Vile.

I don't think Vile is really uber evil. It's more demented evil. Vile isn't the guy who draws up the plans for an efficient murder machine. Vile is the guy who has breakfast in front of the murder machine while it's slaughtering people, makes recordings of the screams to listen to later, and takes the skin of the victims to make lampshades. The vile people might hold places of authority, but due to their perversity are too unstable to run the whole operation.

[Angelalex242]

I dunno. I'd say genocide is worth vile feats on general principle.

Back on topic:

If the druid only kills mayor red shirt, that's merely evil. If the druid sends a plague of rats to eat every man woman and child in the village, even the ones that wanted to protect the forest, that's vile.

[Jeff the Green]

Not really. Go for the more horrific side of nature, like the wasp that lays eggs inside a living caterpillar, which hatch, eat the caterpillar alive from the inside, leaving the vital organs intact so it stays alive as long as possible. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid_wasp)
Even better, they have a virus incorporated in their DNA that weakens the host caterpillars immune system, giving the eggs a better chance at survival to hatch and feed.
Seriously, this is horror movie stuff.

If you want Vile, skip the parasitoids and go straight for the pathogens.

HIV is a very simple organism. Its genome is less than 10,000 basepairs long—an order of magnitude smaller than the simplest bacterium, five smaller than humans, and six smaller than some plants—and only three genes. It kills simply too. It doesn't really do a lot of damage on its own, either; it merely cripples your immune system. Of course, that's quite enough. If opportunistic organisms don't kill you, eventually your own body will produce mutant children of its own that will starve you, invade your organs, and throw clots to your lungs, heart, and brains.

However, most modern strains are considerably less virulent than the ones that first popped up in the '80s. They've evolved to let their hosts live longer so they can pass their millions of offspring around. (If you're infected by two strains, though, this goes out the window and the two coevolve at breakneck pace to outcompete each other, leading to rapid failure of the immune system even in patients that had previously been as-yet AIDS-free.)

Or take Trypanosoma cruzi, the protozoan that causes Chagas disease. It's fine killing you before you can pass it on. In fact, you can't pass it on at all. See, that's the job of the kissing bugs. They pass the critter from and among twenty other mammals, meaning that even if you eradicate it in humans, you will never be rid of it. It also means that T. cruzi is perfectly okay if it kills all the humans; after all, it can just hang out in the raccoons until more of you come along.

It also can disappear into your body and then reappear at any time. So you could spend Carnaval partying in Rio, drunkenly make out with a bug (hey, it's okay, we don't judge here) and then only years later when your immune system is weakened (or it just feels like it) reappear with symptoms like a suddenly stopping heart, inability to swallow, and dementia.

And then, hey, look who's joined the party! It's rubella. Oh, don't worry, he's not too much of a problem. Really he won't do much more than give you a rash. Maybe a fever and sore throat. But if you're pregnant, watch out; he's a cradle-robber. Literally. As in he robs babies from their cradles and wombs. And puts them in wooden boxes. Sometimes he'll find one he likes, though, and instead give it some birthday gifts, like deafness, mental retardation, and heart defects. Yeah, he's a hoot.

Oh, and who can forget Toxoplasma gondii. This one's really kinky: he likes to have sex in cats and asexual reproduction in rats. The problem is that rats don't much like being around cats, so it can be hard for it to jump ship, as it were. Of course, T. gondii has a solution: just invade the rat's brain and turn off the part that makes it afraid of cats. Cat gets a nice meal, Toxo gets to reproduce, everyone's happy.

Well, besides the rat. And preganant women, because they can pass it to their fetuses, who might be born with brain damage or blindness. And again, those people with weakened immune systems, whom it kills. Oh, and everyone else, because Toxoplasmosis apparently tries to pull the same trick on humans it does on rats, but since we don't have a part of our brain devoted to making us wet our pants when we get a whiff of cat it instead makes us just generally not afraid, and so prone to do stupid things like drive recklessly or have unsafe sex. Also schizophrenia, OCD, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, suicide, and bipolar. So really only Toxo and the cat are happy. Typical.

TL;DR:
Nature doesn't so much want to kill you as it wants its babies to survive and have grandbabies. It just so happens that your body makes an excellent nursery *** larder.

[Angelalex242]

Eh. In a medieval society, I think I'd go straight up black plague.

A lot of that stuff, the local 5th level cleric or 6th level Paladin can cure with a wave of his hands.

But a plague? People die faster then clerics and paladins get their spells back, so you'll off a lot more people then they cure.

[hamishspence]

There's no requirement to "avoid ever committing a Good act if you wish to retain your powers" on Vile feats, the way there is on Exalted feats, though.

[Red Fel]

There's no requirement to "avoid ever committing a Good act if you wish to retain your powers" on Vile feats, the way there is on Exalted feats, though.

Well, think about that for a minute. Because there is a reason.

There are lines that Good - truly Good, such as Exalted - can never cross. For any reason. No matter the justification, some acts are simply not acceptable.

There are no lines that Evil will not cross to get what it wants. Truly Evil people may find doing Good distasteful, but that won't stop it from using Good acts as means to an Evil end. Think of the villain who engages in public acts of philanthropy as a smokescreen to distract the public from his shady underworld empire.

And if you think about it, a NE Druid may end up doing some Good. At least as far as his little corner of nature is concerned, it is his, and he will protect it, even if he's only protecting it so that he can properly weaponize it.

So, yeah. Exalted characters must never do Evil. Vile characters can do Good all they want.

And everything was balanced and everyone was okay with it, forever, the end.

[Phelix-Mu]

And everything was balanced and everyone was okay with it, forever, the end.

Except on the internet, where the screaming, moaning, ranting, and bellyaching continued forever, unabated by mere time and space.

Happy now, kids?

[Grayson01]

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL!



that's the issue with evil in an RPG, most of the ways people actually admit as evil are over the top to the point of parody and most of the smaller ways just get brushed under the table as "well I can see that as a kind of neutral action so no", kind of hard to do something evil and get it across to people so that they actually see it as such.

[Grayson01]

Lancealot????



Well, considering the types of people with Vile Feats essentially amount to 'think up the sickest evil bastards you've ever heard of who deserved the death penalty and got it.'

Saddam Hussein=Evil
Hitler=Vile Feats

You've gotta kick the evil up several notches to qualify for Vile.

The same is true of the other side.

Local Pastor:Good (probably)
Mother Theresa:Exalted

Or In King Arthur's Court:
Arthur:Good (and even a Paladin!)
Galahad:Exalted (still a Paladin)

[Rubik]

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL!Why are you responding to your own posts with other people's?

[Phelix-Mu]

Lancealot????

Lance was brave, but seriously ran afoul of the Arthurian paladin's bits about not sleeping with the wife of your liege (not to mention the weight many of the myths put on chastity and purity...he definitely wasn't either of those). He probably got close to falling, but sought atonement and so avoided any serious corruption. He's actually a decent tale about the difficulty of being super-good. Once a good person indulges in the joys of low-to-no rules neutrality and small evil, it's very hard to justify all the other rules that one tries to follow. Slippery slope and all.

EDIT: @Rubik, I think Grayson01 just got the order backwards. I've noticed that some people post in this way. Nothing too hard to figure out once you've gotten past the "wait, that's different!" factor.

[Rubik]

EDIT: @Rubik, I think Grayson01 just got the order backwards. I've noticed that some people post in this way. Nothing too hard to figure out once you've gotten past the "wait, that's different!" factor.It's still annoying, much like those authors that write a whole paragraph of dialogue before bothering to put in dialogue attribution.

"BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlah BlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBlahBl ahBlahBlahBlah," said Harry.

Do I really need to read the entire paragraph before figuring out who said it?

[Angelalex242]

Lance was brave, but seriously ran afoul of the Arthurian paladin's bits about not sleeping with the wife of your liege (not to mention the weight many of the myths put on chastity and purity...he definitely wasn't either of those). He probably got close to falling, but sought atonement and so avoided any serious corruption. He's actually a decent tale about the difficulty of being super-good. Once a good person indulges in the joys of low-to-no rules neutrality and small evil, it's very hard to justify all the other rules that one tries to follow. Slippery slope and all.

EDIT: @Rubik, I think Grayson01 just got the order backwards. I've noticed that some people post in this way. Nothing too hard to figure out once you've gotten past the "wait, that's different!" factor.

The last book I read that converted King Arthur's court said Lancelot WAS A paladin until the night he got it on with Guinevere. On that day he fell and never regained his status. (Because she's the queen, it counted as a 'major betrayal of one's liege lord, hence, very evil violation.)

[hamishspence]

The last book I read that converted King Arthur's court said Lancelot WAS A paladin until the night he got it on with Guinevere. On that day he fell and never regained his status.

Was it a 3.0 book? 3.0 paladins who "willingly and willfully" commit evil acts (betrayal is typically an Evil act according to BoVD) fall permanently - whereas 3.5 paladins always have a chance of regaining their powers.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, I think it was an even older book...2e, or even 1e...

I remember it treated King Arthur's court like a Pantheon of sorts, right up there with Native American Gods, Hindu Pantheon, Greek Pantheon, Norse Pantheon, and so on.

[Phelix-Mu]

Actually, I think it was an even older book...2e, or even 1e...

I remember it treated King Arthur's court like a Pantheon of sorts, right up there with Native American Gods, Hindu Pantheon, Greek Pantheon, Norse Pantheon, and so on.

That sounds like the 2e book Legends and Lore, IIRC. Or maybe the old Deities and Demigods, but I get confused since they reused that name. Speaking of which, I wish they would stop re-using book names. Makes searching for old and used books more difficult than it should be.

[hamishspence]

Actually, I think it was an even older book...2e, or even 1e...

Wouldn't matter that much- 1e, 2e, and 3.0e all had the same "permanent Fall" rule- 3.5 was the first to allow paladins to regain their powers after having committed an Evil act willingly.

[Coidzor]

So druids have to be one part neutral, yet, I feel that in a way, if you become exalted, you skip a step, and no longer just good, but SUPER GOOD!.

It doesn't matter if they've gone from good to SUPER GOOD on one axis, they've just gotta be neutral on at least one axis, so if they're Neutral EXALTED GOOD they're still Neutral on one axis.

Between that and the game becoming more broken if Druids can't access the druid-specific Exalted PrCs I can't see why someone would want to make that change.

But maybe I'm just weird in that I feel if one needs to make changes one should be aiming towards making the game less broken, not more so.

[Angelalex242]

Also RAI clearly intends exalted druids, as the Lion of Talisid prestige class was more or less invented for them.

[Chronos]

Sleeping with your liege's wife isn't necessarily an evil act, but it's probably a chaotic act, and certainly a major breach of the paladin's code. It might, however, be a perfectly acceptable act for a chaotic exalted character, depending on circumstances.

[Rubik]

Sleeping with your liege's wife isn't necessarily an evil act, but it's probably a chaotic act, and certainly a major breach of the paladin's code. It might, however, be a perfectly acceptable act for a chaotic exalted character, depending on circumstances.What, like, if she's been cursed to sleep, and the only way to wake her up is...?

Remember kids, "unconscious" means "always willing." :smallsigh:

[Phelix-Mu]

Sleeping with your liege's wife isn't necessarily an evil act, but it's probably a chaotic act, and certainly a major breach of the paladin's code. It might, however, be a perfectly acceptable act for a chaotic exalted character, depending on circumstances.

Yeah, I think Lance got into trouble here due to loyalty concerns and a law against adultery. He would fall as a paladin, but I'm not clear that he would lose any [Exalted] status that he might have had before just from the adultery (as a crime where both partners are willing, no one is harmed, and pretty much traditions, propriety, and some feelings are the only victims doesn't sound terribly evil).

But, subsequent to the adultery, he and Guinevere pretty much destroyed Arthur's marriage (not that it was in great shape), and spread around no small amount of misery (even though it was caused by feelings of actual love). That might have lost the character any [Exalted] status.