Warhammer 40,000 Versus Thread

[Cracklord]

So, there's a lot of 'who would win, X versus Warhammer' threads, where X = Star Trek, or Star Wars, or Halo, or whatever. Then a whole lot of fans toss a whole lot of conflicting information at each other of questionable canonicity, then insult each other, and then a few months later there is a brand new thread asking the same question. I understand it is a vital part of enjoyment of your preferred fandom, and I respect that.
For what it is worth, I usually give it to Warhammer, just because of what Warhammer is, fundamentally, a setting given over to conflict on a scale beyond comprehension. Even the Culture might be in trouble, simply because of the fundamental nature of Artificial Intelligence's in the grim darkness of the far future, which would result in them being utterly destroyed by their own obscenely over-powered creations.

But that's a discussion that has been done to death. In this one, I posit a simple question that encompasses the strengths and virtues of the respective settings in more then a physical challenge and is what I like to believe a somewhat new spin:

‘At [Appropriate Character's] moment of triumph, you see it, a glimpse of the future. The galaxy is a wasteland, humanity under the fist of an immortal tyrant who is all but a corpse, forced to watch the brutality and institutionalized ignorance carried out in his name, and all of mankind is in bondage to a nightmarish hell of bureaucracy and religious superstition. All is grim darkness and all is war. Only you have the power to stop this distant future. But you must act decisively, and fast.'

Then lets pick a few of the usual suspects:
Captain James Tiberius Kirk (though Picard or whoever would do just as well)
Luke Skywalker (Pick another character if you feel they'd do a better job)
Commander Shepard (Use any Shepard you like)
Master Chief
Ace Rimmer (What a guy!)
Arthur Dent
Darth Helmet
Or whoever else you think would contribute to this.

Each of them is in their own universe (or whatever you consider their universe to be, don't worry, every fandom has things it would rather ignore), which has a bit of welding to the 40k universe for simplicities sake (for example, the Force is a particularly placid part of the warp), and have sufficiently vanquished the usual suspects to the point that they have a window of opportunity for decisive action, and early on doesn't have to worry about it's gradual hijack by grimdark, though that changes as the attempt goes on (naturally).
The Chaos Gods exist, but aren't particularly self-aware at this point (they are reinforced by the actions they embody, and gain power from that, but they need worship to develop higher functions and sentience), and humanity isn't quite big enough to interest them yet, although take too long and they might start to notice you, the Eldar Empire is on the decline (which is why we can assume they've been here all along, and nobody has noticed it yet), and the Ork systems are lurking in some unfashionable arm of the galaxy where they haven't been noticed either, but are expanding, successive Waaaghs taking them further and further (naturally), and even the most insomniac of Necrons is fast asleep, and not due to wake for a geological period. So that's the good news.

However, you don't know the exact sequence of events that leads to the grim future, but you know the consequences of inaction, and that you need to oppose it to the full extents of your abilities. You have some time (lets say… thirty thousand years?) so it's not like you can go and kill Horus while he's in the cradle (and it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to try, see also 'Angron'), you have no idea where the Emperor is (for the record? This game considers him to spend your characters lifetime and the immediate future afterwards sleeping off smacking up the Dragon of Mars) and total disarmament will lead to extinction once the orks or Tyrannids or Necrons find you (You just can't win a trick). How to you avert the bleak future you foresee?

And who will do it with the most style and panache?

There are some characters who are not appropriate for this, naturally enough. Paul Atredis, for example, can see the future with such ludicrous precision that it's only a challenge if the Chaos Gods are aware of him and actively working against him with the full extent of their powers, in which case it's some kind of cosmic chess game.
Furthermore, some characters have it tougher then others. In the Star Wars example, canon folding turns the force into the warp, and suggests that wiping out the Jedi might be what woke up the Chaos Gods in the first place (it would explain the monastic life Jedi are normally portrayed as having).

But it's up to you. Lets see what you can come up with.

[Orange Knight]

Hmm.

Well I see why you've said what you said. Verses arguments discussions with anyone VS 40k do just end up as an eternity of war most of the time (thematic, but not useful). And yes, for the most part 40k normally wins. I've not seen "the Culture succumbs to the grimdarkness of the setting" before though.

Problem is it's just too damn big and entrenched to stop. The eldar were Culture-esque in power, with future-reading to boot, but due to having maybe triple the Culture's arrogance (no mean feat) and a low boredom threshold they helped doom the galaxy. Similarly, in at least one version of the story Horus (and Kurze, maybe a few others) saw such a terrible future as you described and tried their utmost to stop it... and caused it. And as individuals they're in the top 100 or so for power/influence level in the galaxy, slightly below their Dad and the Chaos gods. So any individual would have a snowball in Sol's chance of averting it. For a start they'd have to live for 30 thousand years. I only know of Paul Atredis via Tvtropes, but I think even he'd struggle.

Personally I don't think any individual could put that big a dent in the timeline to prevent the Fall,the Emperor or the Heresy. There's just too many things that need changing. The closest I can think of is someone getting to the Men of Iron and making sure they don't rebel. All across the galaxy. Then all you have to worry about is the Chaos gods, left over orks and eldar, buried necrons and, in about 15000 years, the encroaching tyranids. Not much of a job, really. Best bet is a restored Jedi order, led by Luke and founding a millennia long tradition to continue this mission. And to hope that nothing is missed in the intervening time

Except Ace Rimmer (what a guy!), obviously he could do it.

Those are my opinions; I find your idea original, but ultimately futile. Please tell me your response.

[Cracklord]

I believe that story was over on Spacebattles, around about the time Priests of Mars (Graham McNeill) came out. That book (read it, it's awesome) answered a whole lot of questions about the Mechanicus, and lost technology, and the whole Artificial Intelligence situation in the Imperium of Man. It also helpfully clarified just how high our tech level was before the damn Dark age of technology.

Now, based on that, and what was observed from Gaunts Ghosts (that STC they found in book One), it seemed that the Iron Men were able to be influenced by Chaos, as they had no defense whatsoever, and were incapable of even perceiving that they were being changed to serve the functions of Chaos. It was mostly conjecture used to fill in the empty boxes, and left the whole question of the Necrons out in the open (i.e why can't they be effected if machines can), but it made a lot of sense to me.

Dune is an excellent read, and you are doing yourself a disservice not reading it. There's some debate at where, exactly, to stop reading (I personally hold God-Emperor to be the logical place) but that's up to you.

And yes, Ace Rimmer (what a guy) has this. But is there nothing else anyone can see as a solution?

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read the various Culture meets 40k threads? There are a ton of ways Culture could do well -- but it depends on how the structure of the interactions between the settings is predicated.

[Kitten Champion]

I'll... just pick the Doctor. That sort of scenario is his wheelhouse.

Not sure which incarnation though.

[Prime32]

The X-Men could probably pull it off - they do this kind of thing all the time.

Any transhumanist faction (e.g. Evangelion) could presumably pull it off by turning humanity into something both godlike and too weird to possibly form the Imperium.

Macross might be able to win through Song Energy and possibly recruiting the orks, though I don't know the franchise that well.

[Orange Knight]

I bought Dune a few weeks back, haven't got around to reading it yet. I don't think I'd read anything that he didn't personally write, as I understand those are a bit bad. And I recently started reading the HH series, so it'll be a while before I get to Priests of Mars. Not read (or really considered) the Gaunt's Ghosts books, but I did know they have stuff with the Men of Iron.

Pre-Emperor (and probably pre-Dark-Age) transhumanism might do it. Can't see how the X-men would though. You can't really recruit Orks. The Doctor might, but only because of timey-wimey shenanigans. Though it's not like 40k can't deal with "immortals" or those who regenerate.

When it comes to power and tech against 40k there's one thing I keep in reserve. The most powerful faction. In game (to a point) and in fluff, there's a general equilibrium. Indeed it makes the setting. But, buried at the back of the fluff, it is clear.

Consider, if you will, the Orks, the Eldar and Chaos. Three powerful factions. The Orks exist solely for war. In the words of one Inquisitor "they've won" and he wasn't talking about a battle, he was talking about existence. The Eldar once lived as gods, with the power to quench suns and live forever. Even as the shattered fragments of the empire, with much weakened abilities they are strong and proud. Chaos was damn lucky to find marines corruptible, but even without them it is powerful. It's got the personification of bloody violence as a component part, who can never be killed or truly defeated. Three powerful factions. Three powerful factions created as weapons by the Old Ones. A race that made Chaos, the Eldar and Orks like humans would make a gun (ok, more like the way humans built a nuclear weapons program, but still). They never finished the control system on the Orks, and Chaos triggered the enslaver plague, but still. That's just like getting hit by your own biological weapon. The Old Ones were powerful. But why would they "build" such weapons? For a war, of course. A war they LOST. To an opponent that still exists. And is a current faction. The Necrons, ladies and gents. They are my answer to "but X could beat 40k easily". No. I can't think of any force that isn't ultra-powerful gods (maybe Time Lords, or perhaps Lensmen, but I only know of them via Tvtropes) that can beat maxed out Necrons. They'll explode your stars, destroy your gods, hijack your machines and kill you forever in a pocket dimension. Then go back in time and make it so you never existed. If they can be bothered to get out their really comfy bed.

[Cracklord]

Ah. Just as I feared. 'Twould seem that the only solution is still 'ludicrous power-levels', that's a shame. Everyone posited is still trying to 'win the fight' instead of 'win the argument'.

I wouldn't say the X-men have less of a chance then Arthur Dent, because at least sheer improbable coincidence might put him in the right pace at the right time. Where if there is one thing the X-Men have proven, time after time after time, is that they cannot make anything like headway against the status quo.

In regards to the whole Old Ones versus Necrotyr thing, they weren't even a threat until the C'Tan came along, and the C'Tan are out of the picture now. Chaos predates the Old Ones, they just stirred it up a whole lot. And I'd put the Tyrannids as a whole tier above Eldar or the Orks.

Now the Time Lords of Gallifrey could stomp 40K into the ground, without even trying particularly hard. Hell, Rassilon could do it himself with a few vague hand-gestures. Yes, The Culture is ludicrously more powerful, but too be honest I've only glanced at the versus threads. Mostly because the Culture as a series leaves me unsatisfied, so I don't much care. And the Lensmen? That's not a fight, that's swatting a bug.

However, can anyone avert the grim future?

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm going to posit that Victor Von Doom would be able to pull this off. And if not him, then Thanos.

Either of them are vastly intelligent enough and well learned enough in the arts of mucking around with a universe that spawns infinite alternate realities that they could work behind the scenes to maneuver 40k to never come about. And, worst come to worst, they could easily amass the power to simply punch out the Chaos Gods or destroy the Warp.

[Prime32]

However, you don't know the exact sequence of events that leads to the grim future, but you know the consequences of inaction, and that you need to oppose it to the full extents of your abilities. You have some time (lets say… thirty thousand years?) so it's not like you can go and kill Horus while he's in the cradle (and it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to try, see also 'Angron'), you have no idea where the Emperor is (for the record? This game considers him to spend your characters lifetime and the immediate future afterwards sleeping off smacking up the Dragon of Mars) and total disarmament will lead to extinction once the orks or Tyrannids or Necrons find you (You just can't win a trick). How to you avert the bleak future you foresee?

There are some characters who are not appropriate for this, naturally enough. Paul Atredis, for example, can see the future with such ludicrous precision that it's only a challenge if the Chaos Gods are aware of him and actively working against him with the full extent of their powers, in which case it's some kind of cosmic chess game.On rereading I'd say it comes down to finding what the trigger was for, say, the IoM's formation and eliminating it, but I'm unclear on what kind of information-gathering would be allowed.

If there are no clear targets to go after (i.e. if it's just "prevent the downfall of society") then there's a paradox: Part of the premise is that the grimdark future is inevitable if everyone continues to act normally... meaning that any character who would normally try to improve society loses automatically, since they were already making their best efforts against it anyway. In order to succeed you'd need someone who didn't care previously, but changed their mind on seeing the vision.

[Eldan]

There are three basic ways I can see for stopping the present 40k Universe from happening:

Stop the Rise of Chaos, Stop the Fall of Humanity, Prevent the Death of the Emperor.


The Rise of Chaos is difficult, but there's one point where one could start. The creation of Slaanesh. A faction with enough ability in engineering societies (the Culture comes to mind) could try to turn around the Eldar Empire in its last days. Very difficult, but some could probably do it. Still, not a promising prospect.

Stopping the Fall of Humanity would require getting there during the Dark Age of Technology and stopping the rise of the machines. There's two ways about this: either preventing their invention or defeating them in battle. The first is a job a single man like the Doctor or Arthur Dent could do just by stumbling in the right few places and changing some research. The second is a brutal war.

Preventing the death of the Emperor might be easiest for those with a lot of power on a personal level.And I mean a giant lot. The Emperor could not easily defeat Horus, so anyone who wants to interfere in that battle better be close to his level.
The resulting galaxy won't be pretty, because the Emperor is not a nice man. But it will be a more stable, unified galaxy.

[Forum Explorer]

Captain James Tiberius Kirk (though Picard or whoever would do just as well)
Luke Skywalker (Pick another character if you feel they'd do a better job)
Commander Shepard (Use any Shepard you like)
Master Chief
Ace Rimmer (What a guy!)
Arthur Dent
Darth Helmet
Or whoever else you think would contribute to this.


Well from these

Kirk: Might end up seducing a few eldar but I doubt he'll make any significant changes
Luke: He might be able to form an order of safe psykers, but I don't think he'd be able to make a meaninful difference
Master Chief: I doubt it.
Commander Shepard: He might actually do better in the modern 40K verse then in the past. His talent really seems to be to unify factions even when it's against their self interest.
Arthur Drent: Everyone knows Marvin was the real hero. Without Marvin Arthur would last seconds. :smallwink:


Taylor Herbert (from Worm) might be able to do something at her max power. But again she'd do better at current 40K time.

So that's why I put my money on Princess Celestia to reverse the social decline of the Eldar. If the Eldar don't Fall, then the Orks don't get out of control, the Nid's are easily opposed, and Chaos is missing their Eye of Terror and an entire God. Necrons might still be a problem, but Eldar are the best prepared to fight them anyways. Humans would still exist as would Tau, but would be weaker and more cooperative if Celestia helped upraise them as well. If we get the Elements of Harmony (plus wielders) as well then Celestia can manually revert Chaos' influence or at least turn it to stone when it manifests.

[Cheesegear]

‘At [Appropriate Character's] moment of triumph, you see it, a glimpse of the future. The galaxy is a wasteland, humanity under the fist of an immortal tyrant who is all but a corpse, forced to watch the brutality and institutionalized ignorance carried out in his name, and all of mankind is in bondage to a nightmarish hell of bureaucracy and religious superstition. All is grim darkness and all is war. Only you have the power to stop this distant future. But you must act decisively, and fast.'

That's exactly what happened with Horus. He tried to prevent it, and caused it.
That's exactly what happened with Alpharius. He tried to prevent it, and caused it.
That's exactly what happened with Curze. He embraced it.
That's exactly what happened with Lorgar. He embraced it.

So...That's a problem. This type of thing has already happened in 40K.


The Chaos Gods exist, but aren't particularly self-aware at this point (they are reinforced by the actions they embody, and gain power from that, but they need worship to develop higher functions and sentience), and humanity isn't quite big enough to interest them yet

So, what? The year is like, 3000 AD?


(for the record? This game considers him to spend your characters lifetime and the immediate future afterwards sleeping off smacking up the Dragon of Mars)

So it's now between 20K and 30K? Humans have Warp Drives, the Warp and Chaos are real, Eldar are functionally non-existant, etc. etc. ...But Chaos is still real. That screws up a lot of things.

What time is the Imperium set in?


How to you avert the bleak future you foresee?

1. Kill all the pre-Emperor Shamans.
2. Kill the Emperor before he unites Terra.
3. Convince the Emperor that the Primarch Project is a bad idea.

All of the Imperium's problems stem from the Emperor. Depending on what you believe happens to the Emperor after He dies (he may well just come back stronger, after all), the Imperium gets catastrophically worse, or better.

Considering that the Emperor is a living God, who, also happens to be a stubborn tyrant, it actually will take super/trans-human abilities to defeat or kill him.

[Tanuki Tales]

So that's why I put my money on Princess Celestia to reverse the social decline of the Eldar. If the Eldar don't Fall, then the Orks don't get out of control, the Nid's are easily opposed, and Chaos is missing their Eye of Terror and an entire God. Necrons might still be a problem, but Eldar are the best prepared to fight them anyways. Humans would still exist as would Tau, but would be weaker and more cooperative if Celestia helped upraise them as well. If we get the Elements of Harmony (plus wielders) as well then Celestia can manually revert Chaos' influence or at least turn it to stone when it manifests.

1. What could Celestia honestly do?
2. The strongest thing we've seen the Elements defeat is Discord and for all his power, we haven't seen him affect things outside the sphere of Ponyville. It's been hinted that he screwed things up potentially for all of Equestria, but that's still only country scale. Warhammer 40k may not have many feats that prove that they really have anything above low to mid Skyfathers, but that's still shoulders above what MLP:FiM has shown thus far to date.

[Forum Explorer]

1. What could Celestia honestly do?
2. The strongest thing we've seen the Elements defeat is Discord and for all his power, we haven't seen him affect things outside the sphere of Ponyville. It's been hinted that he screwed things up potentially for all of Equestria, but that's still only country scale. Warhammer 40k may not have many feats that prove that they really have anything above low to mid Skyfathers, but that's still shoulders above what MLP:FiM has shown thus far to date.

1. Well as far as we can tell Celestia is immortal, though not invincible. It would be more of a matter of convincing the Pre-fall Eldar that not indulging their every whim would be better. And I think Social Reform plays towards her strengths, because it certainly isn't combat.

2. We see Discord change things wherever he was. and Equestria has been used as the name as the planet as well. (Whatever the planet may actually be) Which really perfectly fits how Discord operates, he creates chaos for his amusement and joy. So it's not exactly going to appear in places where he isn't present. The Elements of Harmony not only completely defeated him (and he seems to be unable to stop their activation if all the wielders are together and with the Elements) but they also completely reversed everything he had done, to the destruction of a maze in Canterlot, to restoring the minds of every resident in Ponyville.

[Tanuki Tales]

1. Well as far as we can tell Celestia is immortal, though not invincible. It would be more of a matter of convincing the Pre-fall Eldar that not indulging their every whim would be better. And I think Social Reform plays towards her strengths, because it certainly isn't combat.

But why would they listen to her?


2. We see Discord change things wherever he was. and Equestria has been used as the name as the planet as well. (Whatever the planet may actually be) Which really perfectly fits how Discord operates, he creates chaos for his amusement and joy. So it's not exactly going to appear in places where he isn't present. The Elements of Harmony not only completely defeated him (and he seems to be unable to stop their activation if all the wielders are together and with the Elements) but they also completely reversed everything he had done, to the destruction of a maze in Canterlot, to restoring the minds of every resident in Ponyville.

Map for the series guidebook says otherwise (http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130403195245/mlp/images/thumb/c/cb/Map_of_Equestria_April_2013.jpg/1000px-Map_of_Equestria_April_2013.jpg). Notice how Saddle Arabia is not placed on the map and how it mentions that there are areas in the corners labeled as not part of Equestria. One of the MLP comics makes mention that there is a Griffon kingdom that exists to the east of Equestria. Also remember that the very first episode referred to Equestria as a kingdom.

So, Equestria is at largest a continent, at smallest a kingdom but most likely a country in size. That is all below global scale and still puts Discord as being only able to affect reality on a relatively small scale compared to what the big things in 40k are capable of.

[Forum Explorer]

But why would they listen to her?



Map for the series guidebook says otherwise (http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130403195245/mlp/images/thumb/c/cb/Map_of_Equestria_April_2013.jpg/1000px-Map_of_Equestria_April_2013.jpg). Notice how Saddle Arabia is not placed on the map and how it mentions that there are areas in the corners labeled as not part of Equestria. One of the MLP comics makes mention that there is a Griffon kingdom that exists to the east of Equestria. Also remember that the very first episode referred to Equestria as a kingdom.

So, Equestria is at largest a continent, at smallest a kingdom but most likely a country in size. That is all below global scale and still puts Discord as being only able to affect reality on a relatively small scale compared to what the big things in 40k are capable of.

1. Are you asking for a play by play reform strategy? Because I don't have a clue. I suck at reform. I will say she's odd enough since the galaxy is almost entirely humanoid and she seems to fit present Eldar aesthetics that she could likely get them to pay attention to her initially.

2. Not a canon source. Also in one episode Twilight says "What in the wide wide world of Equestria are you up to?" (I think it was in Feeling Pinkie Keen). Also Discord won't just spread chaos on a global scale because that's no fun. He acts on a personal scale since he wants to witness the chaos happening himself. Frankly we haven't seen a limitation on his power at all, beyond what his personality dictates his actions. Correction, we've seen one restriction; he can't beat the Elements of Harmony's power.

[Tanuki Tales]

1. Are you asking for a play by play reform strategy? Because I don't have a clue. I suck at reform. I will say she's odd enough since the galaxy is almost entirely humanoid and she seems to fit present Eldar aesthetics that she could likely get them to pay attention to her initially.

Yes, but I don't see them as seeing her as anything but an oddity at best, an interesting pet at worst.


2. Not a canon source.

The map most certainly is. It's the official map that was given out with certain Pony merchandise.

If you mean the comic, I thought there was some word of god that those were canon sources, but I'll need to track it down.


Also in one episode Twilight says "What in the wide wide world of Equestria are you up to?" (I think it was in Feeling Pinkie Keen).

So...your evidence that it's a planet is one line of dialogue that's an idiom?


Also Discord won't just spread chaos on a global scale because that's no fun. He acts on a personal scale since he wants to witness the chaos happening himself. Frankly we haven't seen a limitation on his power at all, beyond what his personality dictates his actions. Correction, we've seen one restriction; he can't beat the Elements of Harmony's power.

No limits fallacy.

[Forum Explorer]

Yes, but I don't see them as seeing her as anything but an oddity at best, an interesting pet at worst.



The map most certainly is. It's the official map that was given out with certain Pony merchandise.

If you mean the comic, I thought there was some word of god that those were canon sources, but I'll need to track it down.



So...your evidence that it's a planet is one line of dialogue that's an idiom?



No limits fallacy.

1. I'm confident in her ability to prove herself, though I have no personal idea why. I will argue that preventing the Fall would go a long way to preventing the present 40K verse, so if you have a better idea on how to achieve that then go for it.

So are the toys which flat out contradict the show at times. For example the toy Mrs Cake gives her first name as Dazzle. The show gives her first name as Cup.

I think I know which comment you are talking about and if I remember correctly it was a comic artist saying they try to stick with the show's canon as best as they can. Since then I think the show or the comics have contradicted each other. Or the comics contradicting themselves. I can't remember.


Pretty much. :smalltongue:


Not exactly. I'm not claiming that Discord's power is global, just that you can't claim it isn't. We do not see Discord's limits if any in the three episodes that he is in. Well we see one, the one about the Elements of Harmony. Unless you want to consider his personality a limit. Well I guess we do see that he isn't omnipresent or omniscient.

[Cracklord]

1. Are you asking for a play by play reform strategy? Because I don't have a clue. I suck at reform. I will say she's odd enough since the galaxy is almost entirely humanoid and she seems to fit present Eldar aesthetics that she could likely get them to pay attention to her initially.

The Eldar knew what was going to happen. They could see the future. They knew that Slaanesh was going to be born when their sheer hedonism reached it's limits of expression. The thing is, they were just so amazingly corrupt and jaded they just didn't care. I doubt one pony is going to make the slightest bit of difference there, goddess or not, but at least you're thinking within the bounds of the problem.

And the dates don't really measure up, that was just meant to be placing the problem in general enough terms.


Stop the Rise of Chaos, Stop the Fall of Humanity, Prevent the Death of the Emperor.


The Rise of Chaos is difficult, but there's one point where one could start. The creation of Slaanesh. A faction with enough ability in engineering societies (the Culture comes to mind) could try to turn around the Eldar Empire in its last days. Very difficult, but some could probably do it. Still, not a promising prospect.

Stopping the Fall of Humanity would require getting there during the Dark Age of Technology and stopping the rise of the machines. There's two ways about this: either preventing their invention or defeating them in battle. The first is a job a single man like the Doctor or Arthur Dent could do just by stumbling in the right few places and changing some research. The second is a brutal war.

Preventing the death of the Emperor might be easiest for those with a lot of power on a personal level.And I mean a giant lot. The Emperor could not easily defeat Horus, so anyone who wants to interfere in that battle better be close to his level.
The resulting galaxy won't be pretty, because the Emperor is not a nice man. But it will be a more stable, unified galaxy.

The ideal situation is one that is not Grimdark. The way I saw it, a victory is a coalition of species working towards the common good, rather then social degeneration into an era of warlords that allows the Emperor to come to power in the first place as a savior, instead of as barbarian conqueror.

Or yes, prevent the wars with the Iron Men, or something along those lines.


So are the toys which flat out contradict the show at times. For example the toy Mrs Cake gives her first name as Dazzle. The show gives her first name as Cup.


Every fandom with a couple of creative voices contradicts itself from time to time. God-Emperor knows, 40K is not immune to that little gem (multi-lasers on a Carnifex, Mr Gotto?) Just go with whatever common sense would suggest. In the MLP case, probably err on the side of caution, and assume they don't have the power to construct entire worlds from raw firmament with a word and an imperious gesture. If they did, there wouldn't be much conflict, and what conflict there is wouldn't take an entire episode to solve, would it?

[Forum Explorer]

The Eldar knew what was going to happen. They could see the future. They knew that Slaanesh was going to be born when their sheer hedonism reached it's limits of expression. The thing is, they were just so amazingly corrupt and jaded they just didn't care. I doubt one pony is going to make the slightest bit of difference there, goddess or not, but at least you're thinking within the bounds of the problem.

And the dates don't really measure up, that was just meant to be placing the problem in general enough terms.

That's inaccurate. Some of the Eldar knew it was going to happen and fled, or tried to convince the rest of their people and failed. Besides I'm assuming that things aren't that far gone by that point. Anyways if we are at 30 000 years in the past then the Eldar haven't fallen yet and won't for 15 000 years (source (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Warhammer_40,000_Universe)) So there seems to be time for Celestia to have an effect.

[Tanuki Tales]

1. I'm confident in her ability to prove herself, though I have no personal idea why. I will argue that preventing the Fall would go a long way to preventing the present 40K verse, so if you have a better idea on how to achieve that then go for it.

For her? I don't.

For the thread? I already said Victor Von Doom or Thanos. You need someone who'd know how to manipulate things on a universal and temporal level to prevent the grimdark completely.


So are the toys which flat out contradict the show at times. For example the toy Mrs Cake gives her first name as Dazzle. The show gives her first name as Cup.

I...want to say Genetic Fallacy. Just because some merchandise information is incorrect, doesn't mean all of it is. Until shown otherwise, that's the only official map of any of MLP:FiM's verse.


I think I know which comment you are talking about and if I remember correctly it was a comic artist saying they try to stick with the show's canon as best as they can. Since then I think the show or the comics have contradicted each other. Or the comics contradicting themselves. I can't remember.

Further research is required and I'll need to re-watch some episodes to see if it's mentioned whether Gilda or Gustave are from Equestria.



Pretty much. :smalltongue:

Honesty is always awesome. :smallbiggrin:



Not exactly. I'm not claiming that Discord's power is global, just that you can't claim it isn't. We do not see Discord's limits if any in the three episodes that he is in. Well we see one, the one about the Elements of Harmony. Unless you want to consider his personality a limit. Well I guess we do see that he isn't omnipresent or omniscient.

Burden of proof is on you. My assertions on the limits of Discord (and by extension those of the Elements of Harmony) are based exactly on what is mentioned on the episodes and what is seen on the episodes. I'm not asserting these are his absolute limits, but these are the observable scale of his power we have thus far seen. But it is a no limits fallacy to automatically assume that Discord can affect things on a greater level with no actual evidence of this.

[Forum Explorer]

That's inaccurate. Some of the Eldar knew it was going to happen and fled, or tried to convince the rest of their people and failed. Besides I'm assuming that things aren't that far gone by that point. Anyways if we are at 30 000 years in the past then the Eldar haven't fallen yet and won't for 15 000 years (source (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Warhammer_40,000_Universe)) So there seems to be time for Celestia to have an effect.



Every fandom with a couple of creative voices contradicts itself from time to time. God-Emperor knows, 40K is not immune to that little gem (multi-lasers on a Carnifex, Mr Gotto?) Just go with whatever common sense would suggest. In the MLP case, probably err on the side of caution, and assume they don't have the power to construct entire worlds from raw firmament with a word and an imperious gesture. If they did, there wouldn't be much conflict, and what conflict there is wouldn't take an entire episode to solve, would it?

Yeah no kidding. I think the best solution is to just focus on the primary source. Which 40K doesn't really have, so yeah.

'They?' :smallconfused: Discord is a pretty unique case. If fact I'm not entirely sure why we are arguing about how strong he is in the first place.

[Tanuki Tales]

'They?' :smallconfused: Discord is a pretty unique case. If fact I'm not entirely sure why we are arguing about how strong he is in the first place.

You contended Celestia could fodderize all of Chaos with the Elements of Harmony.

[Cracklord]

If the Elements of harmony can instantly and with no fallout remove the issue of a being capable of that sort of thing, then why can't they use the elements at the start of every season to deal with the over-arching bad guy, and at the start of every episode to humanely but firmly deal with whatever will be interrupting their lives today (those burrowing dogs, or whatever)? Answer? Either because there is some bizarre, self-handicapping honor system at work here that forces them to not use it to improve their lives, or because the Elements of harmony aren't all powerful. But since we've observed them deal with a range of problems, we have to assume that said limits are how much they can achieve, not what.

As for the Eldar thing, well of course it is. It's a blanket statement. But it didn't take all of them, did it? Slaanesh was still born, wasn't it? So it's not really inaccurate. Misleading, perhaps, but certainly correct. The Old Ones gave them power they as a society were not ready for. And so stagnation of the worst sort set in, they became decadent beyond the ability of anything but their actions to depict, and they destroyed themselves.

Could Celestia change that? I doubt it. They wouldn't listen to their own leaders, seers and prophets, they didn't care about a future they were capable of actually perceiving, why should they listen to a talking horse? Would you stop using all electricity and stop eating meat if princess Celestia told you to? Even if she told your parents first?

I agree that the Eldar are a good fix point, but I think it might take a more drastic solution then appeals to friendship and a few vague feel-goodisms.

As for Doom or Thanos, yeah, but that's just an appeal to absolute power from the various plot tickets they have lying around. The whole point of this exercise was for other space opera settings to be given a chance to compete with 40k in a channel they are strong in, rather then a physical confrontation.

[HalfTangible]

I'll... just pick the Doctor. That sort of scenario is his wheelhouse.

Not sure which incarnation though.

The Doctor wouldn't be able to do anything. The Horus Heresy affected everyone in the galaxy, all at once. Smaller, less important things have become fixed points in time, and since it didn't involve time travel as a main method of combat, he can't just lock it away.

[Cracklord]

The Doctor wouldn't be able to do anything. The Horus Heresy affected everyone in the galaxy, all at once. Smaller, less important things have become fixed points in time, and since it didn't involve time travel as a main method of combat, he can't just lock it away.

Sure he could. Don't worry, that's not a show that worries in the slightest about internal logic. Indeed, given that Doctor Who has an entirely arbitrary era stated to be the present, then the Horus Heresy is in the future and he can make any changes he wants. Or he could go and talk to the Timelords pre-war, and Rassilon could all make it not happen with a few vague gestures. Unlike the Doctor, he never pretended his ridiculous solutions had pseudo-scientific justifications.

[Forum Explorer]

You contended Celestia could fodderize all of Chaos with the Elements of Harmony.

I think you misunderstand what I was saying (which was admittedly vague.) I didn't mean Celestia blasting the Warp with the Elements of Harmony and suddenly Chaos being destroyed. I mean stuff like purifying corrupted individuals, and defeating things like Greater Deamons. Even arguably saving a deamonworld.



For her? I don't.

For the thread? I already said Victor Von Doom or Thanos. You need someone who'd know how to manipulate things on a universal and temporal level to prevent the grimdark completely.



I...want to say Genetic Fallacy. Just because some merchandise information is incorrect, doesn't mean all of it is. Until shown otherwise, that's the only official map of any of MLP:FiM's verse.



Further research is required and I'll need to re-watch some episodes to see if it's mentioned whether Gilda or Gustave are from Equestria.




Honesty is always awesome. :smallbiggrin:




Burden of proof is on you. My assertions on the limits of Discord (and by extension those of the Elements of Harmony) are based exactly on what is mentioned on the episodes and what is seen on the episodes. I'm not asserting these are his absolute limits, but these are the observable scale of his power we have thus far seen. But it is a no limits fallacy to automatically assume that Discord can affect things on a greater level with no actual evidence of this.

I don't know much about comics other then they were both villains. As such I'd think that they would be more prone to falling to chaos then actually solving the problem. But seriously I know nothing about them.


Pony merchandise is infamous for being horribly inaccurate. That map is as well. Look at Manehatten's location compared to Ponyville. Applejack ran that distance as a filly, and she was apparently following the rainbow from the Sonic Rainboom, which happened in Cloudsdale, a totally different direction from Ponyville.


I don't think so.


:smallsmile:



For a global interpretation? Sure, he changed weather patterns all over Equestria, which is a country one darn. Here we go, he hijacked the sun and moon causing them to cycle extremely erratically. Now while we don't know exactly what the sun and moon are in the MLP universe, they certainly affect the entire world. To put it another way, each country doesn't have their own sun and moon.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think you misunderstand what I was saying (which was admittedly vague.) I didn't mean Celestia blasting the Warp with the Elements of Harmony and suddenly Chaos being destroyed. I mean stuff like purifying corrupted individuals, and defeating things like Greater Deamons. Even arguably saving a deamonworld.

I'll concede they could do something about purifying corruption and dealing with some Daemons, but I'm not seeing any evidence for affecting anything on a global scale or anything that is a global power.



I don't know much about comics other then they were both villains. As such I'd think that they would be more prone to falling to chaos then actually solving the problem. But seriously I know nothing about them.

They've done crazy stuff like becoming essentially omnipotent on multiple occasions and scamming universal entities out of their power. Their will power is also one of their big selling points, so I don't see them doing anything but using Chaos for their own ends and then leaving it holding an empty bag.



Pony merchandise is infamous for being horribly inaccurate. That map is as well. Look at Manehatten's location compared to Ponyville. Applejack ran that distance as a filly, and she was apparently following the rainbow from the Sonic Rainboom, which happened in Cloudsdale, a totally different direction from Ponyville.

Note how the map specifically says it's not to scale.




For a global interpretation? Sure, he changed weather patterns all over Equestria, which is a country one darn. Here we go, he hijacked the sun and moon causing them to cycle extremely erratically. Now while we don't know exactly what the sun and moon are in the MLP universe, they certainly affect the entire world. To put it another way, each country doesn't have their own sun and moon.

First, I want to apologize, I wasn't using the correct fallacy. While no limits can apply here, I was looking for Appeal from Ignorance.

Second, exactly, we don't know the nature of the sun and moon in that verse. We don't know how Celestia and Luna manipulate it, so I don't see how we can really use it here. Normally in discussion like these we assume that universes are similar, but we already know that things like the weather and seasons don't run normally without Pony intervention outside the Everfree forest.

[Forum Explorer]

If the Elements of harmony can instantly and with no fallout remove the issue of a being capable of that sort of thing, then why can't they use the elements at the start of every season to deal with the over-arching bad guy, and at the start of every episode to humanely but firmly deal with whatever will be interrupting their lives today (those burrowing dogs, or whatever)? Answer? Either because there is some bizarre, self-handicapping honor system at work here that forces them to not use it to improve their lives, or because the Elements of harmony aren't all powerful. But since we've observed them deal with a range of problems, we have to assume that said limits are how much they can achieve, not what.

As for the Eldar thing, well of course it is. It's a blanket statement. But it didn't take all of them, did it? Slaanesh was still born, wasn't it? So it's not really inaccurate. Misleading, perhaps, but certainly correct. The Old Ones gave them power they as a society were not ready for. And so stagnation of the worst sort set in, they became decadent beyond the ability of anything but their actions to depict, and they destroyed themselves.

Could Celestia change that? I doubt it. They wouldn't listen to their own leaders, seers and prophets, they didn't care about a future they were capable of actually perceiving, why should they listen to a talking horse? Would you stop using all electricity and stop eating meat if princess Celestia told you to? Even if she told your parents first?

I agree that the Eldar are a good fix point, but I think it might take a more drastic solution then appeals to friendship and a few vague feel-goodisms.

As for Doom or Thanos, yeah, but that's just an appeal to absolute power from the various plot tickets they have lying around. The whole point of this exercise was for other space opera settings to be given a chance to compete with 40k in a channel they are strong in, rather then a physical confrontation.

First season they do. Second season they do, end of second season they try and are intercepted before they reach them. Third season it's explicitly a test, which Twilight took to mean that she had to ultimately solve the problem herself, and thus didn't use the Elements.


To be fair I don't think the Old Ones planned on being destroyed and leaving the Eldar on their own.


Eh, perhaps. No one else springs to mind for a better source to reform the Eldar (because destroying them solves nothing). I'll see who else I can think of. Also I'd say a better metaphor would have been using drugs and eating junk food. Things that aren't needed, but are enjoyable though have a negative effect on me.

[Tanuki Tales]

Cracklord, I specifically pointed out that the "ascend to omnipotence and punch out Chaos" was only a last weapon in their arsenal. They're both intelligent enough and resourceful enough to play at Tzeentch's table and I could see arguments being made for them beating him.

[Forum Explorer]

I'll concede they could do something about purifying corruption and dealing with some Daemons, but I'm not seeing any evidence for affecting anything on a global scale or anything that is a global power.




They've done crazy stuff like becoming essentially omnipotent on multiple occasions and scamming universal entities out of their power. Their will power is also one of their big selling points, so I don't see them doing anything but using Chaos for their own ends and then leaving it holding an empty bag.




Note how the map specifically says it's not to scale.





First, I want to apologize, I wasn't using the correct fallacy. While no limits can apply here, I was looking for Appeal from Ignorance.

Second, exactly, we don't know the nature of the sun and moon in that verse. We don't know how Celestia and Luna manipulate it, so I don't see how we can really use it here. Normally in discussion like these we assume that universes are similar, but we already know that things like the weather and seasons don't run normally without Pony intervention outside the Everfree forest.

Well they've been used twice. (4 times including Celestia and Luna's usage but that's off screen) so perhaps we will see it later, perhaps not.


What do you mean by willpower? Because that doesn't always correlate to ability to resist corruption. Horus for example had great willpower, but he still fell into corruption because of he was tempted all the same.


There's not to scale and locations being in the completely wrong spot.


True we don't know the nature of the sun and moon. However I'm pretty sure we can assume that the sun and moon are still global effects. Sure the sun might not be giant ball of superheated gas millions of kilometers away, but it's still lighting the entire world. So changing the sun and moon is still a global effect.

[Tanuki Tales]

What do you mean by willpower? Because that doesn't always correlate to ability to resist corruption. Horus for example had great willpower, but he still fell into corruption because of he was tempted all the same.

I'll need to dig for a good feat from Doom, but Thanos has this gem (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/999959-878443_thanos_travels_thru_incoceivable_realities_ super.jpg).






True we don't know the nature of the sun and moon. However I'm pretty sure we can assume that the sun and moon are still global effects. Sure the sun might not be giant ball of superheated gas millions of kilometers away, but it's still lighting the entire world. So changing the sun and moon is still a global effect.

But if the sun and moon raise as normal in the Everfree forest, it would show that Celestia and Luna may only have dominance over Equestria's cycles. But we don't know. It could be a case of Helios' chariot or the Discworld's sun and moon, but that's just conjecture. Sufficed to say, we've seen evidence that Discord can affect reality over several miles (from Canterlot to Ponyville) and we have inferred evidence he could affect all of Equestria, but that is all the evidence we have. So, until shown otherwise, we can't solidly argue under the framework that he is arguably capable of more.

[Forum Explorer]

I'll need to dig for a good feat from Doom, but Thanos has this gem (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/5/53235/999959-878443_thanos_travels_thru_incoceivable_realities_ super.jpg).







But if the sun and moon raise as normal in the Everfree forest, it would show that Celestia and Luna may only have dominance over Equestria's cycles. But we don't know. It could be a case of Helios' chariot or the Discworld's sun and moon, but that's just conjecture. Sufficed to say, we've seen evidence that Discord can affect reality over several miles (from Canterlot to Ponyville) and we have inferred evidence he could affect all of Equestria, but that is all the evidence we have. So, until shown otherwise, we can't solidly argue under the framework that he is arguably capable of more.

That is a good one.


It didn't rise. In episode two when the Mane 6 go into the Everfree to find the Elements of Harmony, it's still night even though it should be daytime.

[Rakaydos]

Silly question... but could a Care Bear Stare have prevented the fall of the Eldar?

[Kitten Champion]

Silly question... but could a Care Bear Stare have prevented the fall of the Eldar?

They could purify the Chaos Gods, dispelling the incarnations of negative emotions is pretty much what they use it for.

[Legato Endless]

The Necrons, ladies and gents. They are my answer to "but X could beat 40k easily". No. I can't think of any force that isn't ultra-powerful gods (maybe Time Lords, or perhaps Lensmen, but I only know of them via Tvtropes) that can beat maxed out Necrons. They'll explode your stars, destroy your gods, hijack your machines and kill you forever in a pocket dimension. Then go back in time and make it so you never existed. If they can be bothered to get out their really comfy bed.

Gurren Lagann given a season or four could punch the necrons out. It's sort of their thing. Though, in this context, what spiral energy and the warp together means is that whatever comes after won't be pretty.


Sure he could. Don't worry, that's not a show that worries in the slightest about internal logic. Indeed, given that Doctor Who has an entirely arbitrary era stated to be the present, then the Horus Heresy is in the future and he can make any changes he wants. Or he could go and talk to the Timelords pre-war, and Rassilon could all make it not happen with a few vague gestures. Unlike the Doctor, he never pretended his ridiculous solutions had pseudo-scientific justifications.

Heh. On a slightly more thematic note: I'm not sure the Doctor and Warhammer can really exist in the same place. One's defined by his ability to solve anything in a day or 2. The other is founded on the premise you can't change the essential nature of the world. Ever. It's the unstoppable force vs the immovable object. Simply introducing anyone who could change the course of the narrative and you've already kind of broken the Warhammer universe into something else. Or created a horrific paradox.

[Cheesegear]

Heh. On a slightly more thematic note: I'm not sure the Doctor and Warhammer can really exist in the same place.

Wakey, wakey Jack! (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5354511/)

[Legato Endless]

Wakey, wakey Jack! (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5354511/)

I do not retract my previous statement... but have a cookie. That was a laugh and quite awesome.

[Killer Angel]

I'll pick this one:



Captain James Tiberius Kirk

He will go where no one has gone before, searching for The Culture.

(yeah, I know I'm cheating, but Kirk is used to cheat tests, right? :smallwink:)

[Ulm11]

I'll pick this one:



He will go where no one has gone before, searching for The Culture.

(yeah, I know I'm cheating, but Kirk is used to cheat tests, right? :smallwink:)

5 seconds in Slaanesh claims Kirk's soul when he doesn't bother to check just what exactly he ends up in bed with.

[Ossian]

Unlike the universes from which the heroes of the list come, the WH40K universe has Gods. Real ones. Who powerfully interact with the strory. Can't win that.

Unless, of course, you meant to go just against the Empire of Man. If you put all forces together, it's war. A grim and ever-lasting (by human standards) one.

I do think that the stumbling block are humans though. They are doomed to fall, perhaps in the yeat 50k, but fall they will unless they re-discover the source of their powers (i.e. science, not religion).

Then the Orks have fun having a proper go at each other for a while, until they are wiped out by the Tyranid fleet, and make a nice addition to the big DNA pool.

Then it's a stand-off between Tau and Tyranids, and the Necrons wipe everyone out in the end. Entropy = zero. Silence and peace reigh in the galaxy. The year is 90,000. Kirk, Picard, Luke Skywalker and Commander Shepherd are all cozily dead...

[Grim Portent]

Well let's see, first we need to know what to change to stop the grimdark becoming so grim.

Kill the chaos gods? Not possible.

Stop the Fall of the Eldar? Not much of a chance.

Prevent the fall of the Old Empire? Hmm, Men of Iron are nasty, can't see it being done easily.

Prevent the Horus Heresy? Can't really see it happening.

Help the Emperor survive the Heresy? Can't see anyone fighting Horus and winning.

Help Horus survive the Heresy? This I could see working, all you need is a better weapon to damage the Imperial Palace to speed up the siege and give Horus more time in which he isn't dropping his shields like an idiot. If Horus survives then either mankind wipes itself out and the gods starve, or mankind rules supreme over a galaxy shackled to chaos.

The best thing to do of course is to simply travel back to before mankind ever left Terra and nuke the planet from orbit. No humans means no fuel for the grimdark (or chaos) so all you get is a galaxy of warring xenos.

[Ulm11]

Well let's see, first we need to know what to change to stop the grimdark becoming so grim.

Kill the chaos gods? Not possible.

Stop the Fall of the Eldar? Not much of a chance.

Prevent the fall of the Old Empire? Hmm, Men of Iron are nasty, can't see it being done easily.

Prevent the Horus Heresy? Can't really see it happening.

Help the Emperor survive the Heresy? Can't see anyone fighting Horus and winning.

Help Horus survive the Heresy? This I could see working, all you need is a better weapon to damage the Imperial Palace to speed up the siege and give Horus more time in which he isn't dropping his shields like an idiot. If Horus survives then either mankind wipes itself out and the gods starve, or mankind rules supreme over a galaxy shackled to chaos.

The best thing to do of course is to simply travel back to before mankind ever left Terra and nuke the planet from orbit. No humans means no fuel for the grimdark (or chaos) so all you get is a galaxy of warring xenos.

Simpler idea, nuke the Necron home planet before they traveled the stars, and thus preventing the War of Heaven and all the fun consequences that emerged from said war (like the warp becoming a messed up place and the elder and orks are never created)

[Forum Explorer]

Simpler idea, nuke the Necron home planet before they traveled the stars, and thus preventing the War of Heaven and all the fun consequences that emerged from said war (like the warp becoming a messed up place and the elder and orks are never created)

I don't think the Eldar were created as weapons. They were created yeah, but their own history predates the War in Heaven so I think they were created for the fun of it/uplifted instead.

[Cracklord]

…All the solutions come down to 'nobody could beat them in a fight', or 'lets go get these guys, they could win in a fight', or even the ever-popular 'kill everyone'. Huh.

Personally, to me Warhammer is not about futility. Quite the opposite, it's about sacrifice. Billions die so trillions can live. One world is destroyed so ten can remain untainted. Progress is ceased for the sake of preserving what little we still have. Victory? Perhaps not, at least within the context of the vanilla galaxy, but certainly triumph. Certainly heroism, all the more shinning because of how dark the backdrop is. Perhaps tragedy, but even that is a triumph, of a sort. As long as we're suffering, we are going on. Since we lost the Emperor, we've gone on for ten thousand years. Sometimes we've prospered, sometimes we've only survived, but we've always perpetuated ourselves.

And somewhere along the line, that seems to have been forgotten, and now it's a study in 'everything sucks, always'. Which is alright for black humor, but not great for story-telling, or at least sustained story-telling. Furthermore, all the answers so far seem to subscribe to this sort of logic. 'This is the way it happened, nobody could have prevented it'. I don't know that this is even loyal to the setting in question. It's a good thing Ollanius Pious didn't have this 'I can't beat Horus, so why even try' attitude. Or the Emperor would be dead, and humanity, and chaos would have followed. Instead, yes it's not a great place to live, and there isn't a lot of hope, but you know what? We're still alive.

Necrons? Oh, they're bad news, but nowhere near as bad as the 'nids. Not since they stopped being a monolithic force bent on the extermination of all life and the utter destruction of souls, and started to be a series of dynasties working at cross-purposes to each other, developing faults over time from dying too many times, and kinda wanting to get their bodies and souls back. Orks? Tyrannids? Tau, I'd say, are the greatest single threat. Because sooner or later, they will make actual, self-actualizing Artificial Intelligences capable of self-improvement, history will repeat itself, and the Imperium isn't strong enough to fight another Dark Age of Tecnology War. And the Tau certainly aren't. Hell, I doubt any faction is.

But the question isn't so much 'who could kill these factions' because there is no shortage of ludicrously powerful people who could. I could write a long list of people who could handle the situation. The question is, where did we go wrong? How could we save ourselves from being in such a position in the first place? Is there really no way to avert the grim future, is the story about sacrifice or futility, and if the former, how could things be changes? And who could do that?

[Legato Endless]

The reason a lot of people subscribe to such notions is because to some extent the 'grimdark' got overly out of hand and it turned into a dark comedy that became impossible to take seriously. Some writers, and Warhammer has always run the gamut from pretty good to absolutely awful writers, went to far and the whole thing seemed farcical. Other more aware writers, feeling unable to stem this tide, went along and willingly lampooned the whole thing. What you're describing is The Road. Daily survival is it's victory. Depending on what source and edition you're working with, that seems a bit high minded compared to what we get.

[Cracklord]

Ah. I don't read a lot of the fiction that isn't written by Graham McNiel, Dan Abnett or Gav Thorpe, so perhaps I missed that. From the sound of it I'm not missing much. But I don't see why you are assuming that everything written is canon. I mean, I quite like the Inquisition War, but I accept that it's got no connection to Warhammer (as it currently exists) whatsoever.

But (with respects to Cormac Mcarthy) the case of 'The Road' is completely different. There's no society, no system, nothing beyond the battle for survival, everyone looking out (mostly) for themselves, and perhaps a few others. Where Warhammer is (with the exception of Chaos) quite the opposite, we're united, and it's a battle for the survival of the species, not the individual. Every day that goes by, tens of thousands have died to give you the chance to have that day, and you'll never even know their names. Millions toil in indentured slavery, their lives ugly, brutal and short, to provide the blood needed to lubricate the gears that keeps the Imperial Machine turning. And the truly awful thing is it's not a product of inefficiency, it's a matter of necessity. There really is no alternative.

What is the survival of our species worth? Is it worth the prosecution, and the death of billions? Is it worth the torture of innocents on a truly incomprehensible scale? Is it worth good, decent men and women selling their souls to the warp for a chance to fight? Those are the sort of questions I associate with the setting. But I'm asking, in the manner of versus threads everywhere, is there someone, an individual of empathy, courage, nobility and charisma, who can see another way? Could they find a way to make it happen? Or is this all we have?

[Forum Explorer]

Ah. I don't read a lot of the fiction that isn't written by Graham McNiel, Dan Abnett or Gav Thorpe, so perhaps I missed that. From the sound of it I'm not missing much. But I don't see why you are assuming that everything written is canon. I mean, I quite like the Inquisition War, but I accept that it's got no connection to Warhammer (as it currently exists) whatsoever.

But (with respects to Cormac Mcarthy) the case of 'The Road' is completely different. There's no society, no system, nothing beyond the battle for survival, everyone looking out (mostly) for themselves, and perhaps a few others. Where Warhammer is (with the exception of Chaos) quite the opposite, we're united, and it's a battle for the survival of the species, not the individual. Every day that goes by, tens of thousands have died to give you the chance to have that day, and you'll never even know their names. Millions toil in indentured slavery, their lives ugly, brutal and short, to provide the blood needed to lubricate the gears that keeps the Imperial Machine turning. And the truly awful thing is it's not a product of inefficiency, it's a matter of necessity. There really is no alternative.

What is the survival of our species worth? Is it worth the prosecution, and the death of billions? Is it worth the torture of innocents on a truly incomprehensible scale? Is it worth good, decent men and women selling their souls to the warp for a chance to fight? Those are the sort of questions I associate with the setting. But I'm asking, in the manner of versus threads everywhere, is there someone, an individual of empathy, courage, nobility and charisma, who can see another way? Could they find a way to make it happen? Or is this all we have?

I maintain that the best way to go about it is to prevent the Fall. Because the Emperor is a **** and unlikely to listen to any other being. Also they need to either be immortal or very long lived because it'll take multiple lifetimes to do.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Heh. On a slightly more thematic note: I'm not sure the Doctor and Warhammer can really exist in the same place. One's defined by his ability to solve anything in a day or 2. The other is founded on the premise you can't change the essential nature of the world. Ever. It's the unstoppable force vs the immovable object. Simply introducing anyone who could change the course of the narrative and you've already kind of broken the Warhammer universe into something else. Or created a horrific paradox.

Actually it works about like this...

Wakey, wakey.... (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/5354511/)

[Legato Endless]

Ah. I don't read a lot of the fiction that isn't written by Graham McNiel, Dan Abnett or Gav Thorpe, so perhaps I missed that. From the sound of it I'm not missing much. But I don't see why you are assuming that everything written is canon. I mean, I quite like the Inquisition War, but I accept that it's got no connection to Warhammer (as it currently exists) whatsoever.

But (with respects to Cormac Mcarthy) the case of 'The Road' is completely different. There's no society, no system, nothing beyond the battle for survival, everyone looking out (mostly) for themselves, and perhaps a few others. Where Warhammer is (with the exception of Chaos) quite the opposite, we're united, and it's a battle for the survival of the species, not the individual. Every day that goes by, tens of thousands have died to give you the chance to have that day, and you'll never even know their names. Millions toil in indentured slavery, their lives ugly, brutal and short, to provide the blood needed to lubricate the gears that keeps the Imperial Machine turning. And the truly awful thing is it's not a product of inefficiency, it's a matter of necessity. There really is no alternative.

What is the survival of our species worth? Is it worth the prosecution, and the death of billions? Is it worth the torture of innocents on a truly incomprehensible scale? Is it worth good, decent men and women selling their souls to the warp for a chance to fight? Those are the sort of questions I associate with the setting. But I'm asking, in the manner of versus threads everywhere, is there someone, an individual of empathy, courage, nobility and charisma, who can see another way? Could they find a way to make it happen? Or is this all we have?

Well, I'm not so much describing my own reasoning as a huge swath of the general fandom. I just kind of go with it because it got tiresome arguing about such things for the nth time. It's hard to have discussions about something like this because whenever you speculate about some sort of change, fans go, lol no, that couldn't happen, this is Warhammer/Chaos/blah.

Warhammer went out of it's away to justify status quo is God because it over wise people begin to question why no technological progression isn't taking place. It's set up so that the tabletop can remain consistent.

You want to change the setting? Put in a charismatic figure who alters the ban on new technology in the Imperium. The Emperor's devotional atheism didn't entirely work out, so don't abandon it, but allow real tech development to take place. A sudden upsurge in the Imperium's tech level, given the sheer size and resources you'd be willing throwing into this, would amount to some staggering changes and could very easily change the balance of power. Chaos might very well still be a problem, but some of the other races might not fare so well. Whoops, I'm wondering way off topic.

[Cracklord]

Yeah, but he's only unlikely. Not actively self-destructive, which the Eldar (with a few, but nowhere near as many as any rational being would like to think) actively were.

I disagree about the technological thing, however. It's not the ban, which is more for the sake of preserving what we have, so much as nothing kills research funding in new and emergent technologies like a perpetual war footing. Sure, war might heighten certain developments, but research into new concepts and ideas? Not so much. And even if they did, the fundamental problem is that the facilities to research and the internal logic that we base our understanding upon simply does not exist. Imperium would be starting again entirely from scratch, and have to rebuild their understanding from the ground up. The Tau are advanced, sure, but the Tau had peace. For eight thousand years. They had a chance that, at this point, Imperium will never have.

It's not even that everything is stagnant. Guant's Ghosts even points out how on some worlds in the Sabbat Worlds you have your Gallileos and the like, it's just that in such a big empire, there is no way of spreading these discoveries or collaborating with other ideas on other worlds, so instead you have rudimentary fragments, interesting theories that will never be proven.

But this is, ultimately, a versus thread, so the Imperium doesn't have to save itself, we have someone to do that for them. :smallamused:

You want to prevent the issues with the Emperor? Then prevent his ascension in the first place. He only came to power because of the Iron Men, and then the Era of technobarbarians and chaos worshipers that followed which made it possible for him to conquer the earth. Hell, you don't even have to be immortal to do that, just leave society in a position where the Dark Age of Technology doesn't come through, and when he wakes up he'll go back to doing what he's always done, silently observing. Of course, you still have to worry about Orks, and Necrons, and Eldar who think we're getting too powerful, and Chaos Gods, and all the rest, but it's a less insurmountable problem, wouldn't you say? All we have to do is overcome the worst parts of out natures. And if resisting Chaos for ten thousand years has taught us anything about humanity, is that they can do that, if sufficiently motivated.

Option two: prevent the Horus Heresy. Easy. Horus can't be killed easily, or Lorgar for that money, but you know who can? Erebus. Without him, humanity makes non-hostile contact with another empire of reasonable people who A.) Are willing to make peace with Xenos, and B.) Know about Chaos, and how to avoid it without hysterical mania and craziness. Furthermore, Horus doesn't get poisoned, have dream visions of the future, and betray his father, leaving Lorgar holding the bag. That Heresy would go a little differently, wouldn't you say?

Kill the Chaos Gods. It's been tried. By the Chaos Gods themselves. Indeed, they are so, by nature, self-destructive, that there used to be a God of it, Malal. But there is at least two groups who actually have a gameplan for that. One of them can even make you immortal. The Cabbal, a collection of Xenos who were helping with the heresy. And the Ordo Hydra, a group of questionable canonicity within the Inquisition. Then there is the Necrons, who simultaneously want to destroy all souls and and get theirs back, making them rational in comparison to the other factions. Regardless, the orks and the Tyrannids don't empower the warp with their enmations, so we wouldn't necessarily have to cut away our souls anyway.

There are options, as long as we act on them before we hit the point of no return, which unfortunately was not in the cards.


Another off brandied about phase is that the Emperor being a less incompetent father to the 13 might have changed the course of history, but I forget what precisely is usually argued with this, and I'm not certain I agree with it.

The Emperor never explained himself to anybody. Ever. That was his problem. If he treated them with a modicum of respect, taking the time to explain and justify his actions, or see things from their perspective, then yes, The Chaos Gods would never have got their hands on them. But that was his fundamental failing, he had no connection to the people he saw it as his duty to shepherd, uplift and protect. He was convinced of his own rightness to a magnitude that ultimately destroyed him, and never guessed that other perspectives could exist, or even matter, and ultimately he has nobody but himself to blame for how it ended up happening. To do otherwise would be fundamentally not acting within his nature.

[Eldan]

Now that just makes me think what would happen if instead of the Imperial Creed, humanity was put on the Eldar Path some 10'000+ years ago.

[Legato Endless]

Now that just makes me think what would happen if instead of the Imperial Creed, humanity was put on the Eldar Path some 10'000+ years ago.

Pretty much what I'd like to see.

[Fan]

Dr.Doom could beat the Chaos Gods easily, the man's beaten cthulhu with his magic and with even a bit of prep managed to snag the power of Odin, who could solo the entire 40k universe.

Placing the Chaos Gods at Infinite Power because they possess (at best) one galaxies worth of emotional energy (split among the 4 of them evenly, constantly in use, but we'll say it replenishes fast enough to allow them to use it and not feel any real drain unless they tap into all of it at once.), you have beings like Thanos, like Black Bolt, like Doom, like Galactus, like The Spectre, like Dark Schneider, like Gold Cloth Saints from Saint Saiya.

It's a no limits fallacy that I myself used to be guilty of to put the chaos gods above galaxy at best when all together, and they've displayed nothing even remotely on THAT level.

[Cracklord]

Well, one galaxy that we know of. We know there are other galaxies out there, that's where 'nids come from, afterall, and the warp scoffs at the inbetween space. So presumably, they could be sucking an entire universe. Furthermore, how may watts does one shifted alp (faith moves mountains, you see) convert into when made into daemon energy? What's the yield of emotions? And what's the system for storing energy from the previous ten thousand years of glutting themselves, and does the energy reduce itself, or is it all-replenishing? I could go on. Suffice to say, that's a line of questioning that is entirely speculative, without any sort of coherency.

I agree with you, but the mere idea of attempting to give a measurement to the warp is so ridiculous it really doesn't matter. They can remake worlds in their image, create things out of nothing, and see the future, and corrupt souls, transforming people into daemons. That's all we really need to know, as any ending that involves a character riding into the warp to do battle with the gods personally is fundamentally unsatisfying. I mean, it's like the 'happy' ending that was written for King Lear. It belongs in a Superman comic, not Warhammer 40k, or anything connected to it.

[jseah]

Re gods:
You have to be prepared to accept that certain challengers will take on the God's as part of their solution. This applies to those who have great personal power but little long term reach.

Re solutions:
Imo, the key event is the Men of Iron. That sounds like a classic uFAI scenario after humans failed to trust them enough to properly go foom. Or the AIs are held back by the humans, depending on how you look at it.
Clearly, the AIs could win if they properly went foom like in the Culture or other SF settings. Even restricted to short range cogitator jumps, a fooming AI civilization would fill the galaxy within a century or two. While fighting a war against everyone else at the same time. (Assuming weapon tech and balance of power is similar to current 40k, if it is at the Dark Age of Technology level, the AIs pwn everyone easily enough. )

[Forum Explorer]

Re gods:
You have to be prepared to accept that certain challengers will take on the God's as part of their solution. This applies to those who have great personal power but little long term reach.

Re solutions:
Imo, the key event is the Men of Iron. That sounds like a classic uFAI scenario after humans failed to trust them enough to properly go foom. Or the AIs are held back by the humans, depending on how you look at it.
Clearly, the AIs could win if they properly went foom like in the Culture or other SF settings. Even restricted to short range cogitator jumps, a fooming AI civilization would fill the galaxy within a century or two. While fighting a war against everyone else at the same time. (Assuming weapon tech and balance of power is similar to current 40k, if it is at the Dark Age of Technology level, the AIs pwn everyone easily enough. )

What is foom? and what is uFAI?

[Rakaydos]

What is foom? and what is uFAI?

From context, it seems he's referring to what Eclipse Phase calls a "Hard Takeoff" Singularity, where the AI becomes smart enough to make itself smart enough to make itself even smarter. With a full STC device, they're post scarcity as well, giving them a geometric growth rate.

And they dont power Khorn or Slanesh, as an added bonus.

[Forum Explorer]

Well the Men of Iron could be corrupted by Chaos so I don't think it would turn out well. Plus I don't think they were smart enough to begin increasing their intelligence.

[Cracklord]

Well, the one time we saw them (The Iron Men, that is), they were capable of spontaneous evolution (is that the right term?) instantly adapting their bodies into whatever they needed, so they seem to have total control over their components. Whether that is part of their original programming, or showcasing extreme chaos mutations isn't known, but if they are capable of altering their bodies at will, presumably that also applies to their minds.

Furthermore, Imperial Technology is full of said Intelligences (Machine Spirits), who exist in a fragmented, lobotomized state, barely self-aware. Most of them have probably not become less hostile, and another AI explosion could have utterly appalling effects as a consequence.

[Eldan]

And even if Chaos didn't take them, the Necrons probably could. The Void Dragon, at the very least.

[Rakaydos]

Tau AI, on he other hand, seems to be just as immune to the warp as the Tau themselves. Any discussion of this?

[Eldan]

And hte Necrons themselves are immune to the warp, too, of course, desite being AIs.

It seems to me that machines take on warp presence from those that built them, strange as that is.

That gives me a fun idea. Get blanks to work for the Mechanicus.

[Cracklord]

Don't cybernetics eat your soul over-time anyway? I swear I remember something like that, about how the more augmentation you have, the less warp presence you have. Or was that something to do with the Order of the Dragon?

Of course, this was quite possibly back when White Scars could have kids, so maybe it's just been eased out over time.

[Forum Explorer]

Tau AI, on he other hand, seems to be just as immune to the warp as the Tau themselves. Any discussion of this?

How advanced is their AI? I haven't read the new codex yet, but from what I remember from the old ones it wasn't much more advanced then cyber-skulls. To put it another way, not a true intelligence.


And hte Necrons themselves are immune to the warp, too, of course, desite being AIs.

It seems to me that machines take on warp presence from those that built them, strange as that is.

That gives me a fun idea. Get blanks to work for the Mechanicus.

Yeah but the necrons were living creatures in the past, and were created by the C'tan, an ancient race that predates Chaos.

[The Glyphstone]

How advanced is their AI? I haven't read the new codex yet, but from what I remember from the old ones it wasn't much more advanced then cyber-skulls. To put it another way, not a true intelligence.



Yeah but the necrons were living creatures in the past, and were created by the C'tan, an ancient race that predates Chaos.

If I remember right, the Tau Empire regards its drones as actual citizens, so either they have exceptionally good AI or the Empire has exceptionally low citizenship requirements.

[jseah]

The necrons would not be able to handle a true hard takeoff. The imperial ships are able to fight off necrons with difficulty. One of the end results of an ai singularity is a geometric growth rate and the ability of survive in all physical environments.
Normally useless systems are perfectly colonizable by ai von neumann probes and soon (within a few years of arrival) get a productivity rivaling Mars. And have the research output rivaling an entire imperial sector. Every single system, with potential reach of the entire galaxy within a century or two.

They just swamp everyone with fleets easily hundreds or thousands of times larger than now.

I will contend that the Men of iron were not a true hard takeoff if they could not self modify and innovate. And that these AIs would be able to notice chaos and develop self monitors to a level that would make an Inquisitor sliavate in order to correct deviations.

So all it takes is a genius scientist character placed at the point where the Men of iron were still a research project.

[The Glyphstone]

At that point, forget the Men of Iron entirely. Just let a batch of unfettered von Neumann machines loose to run for ten thousand years...let's see the Chaos Gods, or anyone else, cause trouble in a galaxy that's had every molecule of organic or inorganic material in it converted into space probes.

[Forum Explorer]

The necrons would not be able to handle a true hard takeoff. The imperial ships are able to fight off necrons with difficulty. One of the end results of an ai singularity is a geometric growth rate and the ability of survive in all physical environments.
Normally useless systems are perfectly colonizable by ai von neumann probes and soon (within a few years of arrival) get a productivity rivaling Mars. And have the research output rivaling an entire imperial sector. Every single system, with potential reach of the entire galaxy within a century or two.

They just swamp everyone with fleets easily hundreds or thousands of times larger than now.

I will contend that the Men of iron were not a true hard takeoff if they could not self modify and innovate. And that these AIs would be able to notice chaos and develop self monitors to a level that would make an Inquisitor sliavate in order to correct deviations.

So all it takes is a genius scientist character placed at the point where the Men of iron were still a research project.

Men of Iron really weren't even close to a hard takeoff. If anything they were dumber then humans. Still intelligent, but dumber. They were such a threat because, yes they could think, they could replicate via SCP, they were as tough as tanks, and were stupid strong. I don't know if they could self modify. I think they could, but like I said, not actually smarter then humans. (The above is coming from one Gaunt's Ghost novel, which as far as I know is the only one to have Men of Iron in the story)

So introducing a brilliant scientist wouldn't really change the Men of Iron, it would just be introducing an AI that was super intelligent to the mix. Which could work I suppose. Depends on the AI introduced. If we brought in, Dragon well she'd do a lot of good over a very very long time. However she can't replicate or improve herself. A Culture AI would work I suppose, but nothing else is really coming to mind.

[gooddragon1]

Kirk: Might end up seducing a few eldar but I doubt he'll make any significant changes

Wouldn't the Eldar die if that happened so it would be impossible?

[Hyena]

Wouldn't the Eldar die if that happened so it would be impossible?
It's captain Kirk. I'm sure he will find a way.

[jseah]

An AI created once is an AI created unlimited times. The Men of Iron presumably had an entire production base behind them. Copying an AI is easy if it is at all cross-platform.

Introducing the AI when the Men of Iron were being constructed would mean the Men of Iron aren't dumb anymore. (btw, the fluid body thing sounds like they had nanotech... o.O)

Any one of the fiction books dealing with the Singularity usually have an AI capable of self-improvement.
Eg. Singularity Sky by Charles Stross; one of William Hertling's two books (although these are uFAIs and humanity won't survive their introduction)

In the second William Hertling book, the AIs are actually a fragmented society and when they discover the real world, they start flying unmanned planes and shooting missiles at each other's datacenters. With the Men of Iron and STCs, such an AI would basically turn the galaxy into Total Annihilation faster than an Eldar could cut your throat.
Everyone dies, not exactly the best end, but it's definitely not grimdark everlasting war... hmmm, wait a minute... =O

EDIT:
uFAI = unFriendly Artificial Intelligence

[gooddragon1]

It's captain Kirk. I'm sure he will find a way.

They're pretty heavily trained to resist that sort of stuff I think. Unless kirk has any historical success with a vulcan it would be... illogical?

[Forum Explorer]

Wouldn't the Eldar die if that happened so it would be impossible?

They don't die from physical pleasure no. It's hard to describe but they sorta restrict themselves to one set of emotions at a time. Regardless this is past Eldar anyways. So no restrictions at all. :smallwink:



An AI created once is an AI created unlimited times. The Men of Iron presumably had an entire production base behind them. Copying an AI is easy if it is at all cross-platform.

Introducing the AI when the Men of Iron were being constructed would mean the Men of Iron aren't dumb anymore. (btw, the fluid body thing sounds like they had nanotech... o.O)

Any one of the fiction books dealing with the Singularity usually have an AI capable of self-improvement.
Eg. Singularity Sky by Charles Stross; one of William Hertling's two books (although these are uFAIs and humanity won't survive their introduction)

In the second William Hertling book, the AIs are actually a fragmented society and when they discover the real world, they start flying unmanned planes and shooting missiles at each other's datacenters. With the Men of Iron and STCs, such an AI would basically turn the galaxy into Total Annihilation faster than an Eldar could cut your throat.
Everyone dies, not exactly the best end, but it's definitely not grimdark everlasting war... hmmm, wait a minute... =O

...I'm not entirely sure what you're addressing here. That's still basically what I said, I mean making the Men of Iron hyper-intelligent is basically making something entirely different from the Men of Iron. Which could succeed or fail horribly. I'm also not familiar with very many AI's who are both benevolent, capable of self replication (It's rarer then you'd think), and capable of resisting Chaos.

If you are referring to the AI Dragon, well Dragon has code specifying that only one of her can exist at a time. If two of them exist then one has to be deleted, and will do so automatically.

The Men of Iron do not have fluid bodies. They do have fluids, like oil and stuff, but their bodies stay solid. The Chaos Men of Iron could alter their bodies, but the alterations were more Chaos induced mutations and involved impossibilities like an arm suddenly doubling in size.

[TeChameleon]

Heh.

I've seen this particular discussion before, if not quite as regimented, over on the TVTropes fora. I'll just throw a couple of answers that came up there into the mix.

Almost any of the Discworld protagonists could be dropped into most of the time periods and be reasonably expected to make significant (positive) differences, although I would put Susan Sto Helit, Granny Weatherwax, and Tiffany Aching at the head of the list- Commander Vimes tends to be too focused on the small picture to deal with something on this scale, I'm not sure if even the Lady could keep Rincewind anywhere near the 40k 'verse, and Cohen and the Silver Horde are likely to get lost in the background noise of the general mayhem.

But Death's Granddaughter, She-Who-Must-Be-Avoided, and th'Big Wee Hag all have utterly amazing insight into (demi-) human nature along with an equally amazing facility for using that insight to their advantage, significant personal power, tremendous mobility via Binky, magic, or th'craw-step, a crew to watch their backs, and an impressive track record of getting people and things that have no reason whatsoever to be listening to them to listen to them. None of them are likely to be sidelined in any appreciable way by culture shock, any of the three have a will so adamantine that you could bend actual, physical iron bars around it, and all three have a potent dislike for anything that makes humans less than human (like, oh, say, Chaos... or being eaten by things from beyond the stars...).

That and I'd pay good money to watch any of the Chaos gods try to corrupt the Nac Mac Feegle. "Nae King! Nae Quin! We willna be fooled again!"

Another... entity? group..? that would have an excellent chance at righting the 40k 'verse would be the Fleetmind, from the webcomic Schlock Mercenary, particularly if they were allowed to bring their eponymous fleet and the Core Generator, although if they brought certain of their enemies with them, the 40k 'verse might find it had bigger problems than the 'nids >.>

The Fleetmind have tech that is (as far as I know) generally far in advance of anything the 40k 'verse has to offer, non-Warp-reliant FTL, and as an AI groupmind of incredible power, I'm not sure how vulnerable they'd be Chaos' influence, given that they're inherently self-monitoring lightspeed thinkers. The Fleetmind is also benign, with an interest in preserving sentient life and a natural bent towards quiet meddling, which is something that I think would stand them in good stead. They also have a natural bent towards overwhelming firepower should firepower become necessary, so, yeah...

[Rakaydos]

An AI created once is an AI created unlimited times. The Men of Iron presumably had an entire production base behind them. Copying an AI is easy if it is at all cross-platform.

Forking an AI (or any transhuman uploaded inteligence) into multiple instances is easy. But making a separate personality from scratch is as hard as making the first one.

[Eldan]

Ooh. I would pay good money to see hear about a meeting between the Emperor and Esme Weatherwax.

[jseah]

Forking an AI (or any transhuman uploaded inteligence) into multiple instances is easy. But making a separate personality from scratch is as hard as making the first one.
Like any other clone, once duplicated, the AIs will start to diverge as they self-modify.

RE Forum Explorer:
I am thinking of the Men of Iron with a different AI running. If you insert an AI researcher into the development process as per the rules of the crossover, you end up with a true Singularity and a hard takeoff.

As for the AI Dragon, the no-copies rule can be easily circumvented, by self-modification or by re-compiling it.

[Forum Explorer]

Like any other clone, once duplicated, the AIs will start to diverge as they self-modify.

RE Forum Explorer:
I am thinking of the Men of Iron with a different AI running. If you insert an AI researcher into the development process as per the rules of the crossover, you end up with a true Singularity and a hard takeoff.

As for the AI Dragon, the no-copies rule can be easily circumvented, by self-modification or by re-compiling it.

Okay well that likely results in a scenario where Chaos wins. The Men of Iron were originally corrupted after all. Or ended up corrupted after their rebellion. Either way, they certainly aren't immune to it, and they are already prone to wanting to kill everyone. Also I really don't see how that's very different then simply building an AI. Why put them into the super dangerous robots as well?


She can't self modify, as that's another restriction. Her designer was afraid that she might cause an AI apocalypse and put a lot of restrictions in place. Before he could change his mind he was killed by a monster. Due to the nature of her universe, there are very few people who are qualified to work on her code and even fewer that she'd trust. Even then, altering the code can end up destroying parts of her mind. For example removing a restriction that caused her to obey orders from lawful authorities resulted in her temporarily shutting down, and losing her ability to speak for a long period of time.

[jseah]

Okay well that likely results in a scenario where Chaos wins. The Men of Iron were originally corrupted after all. Or ended up corrupted after their rebellion. Either way, they certainly aren't immune to it, and they are already prone to wanting to kill everyone. Also I really don't see how that's very different then simply building an AI. Why put them into the super dangerous robots as well?
They naturally result in super dangerous robots. The Men part isn't the important bit. It's the spaceships at the top of a giant really-bloody-dangerous plasma rocket.

Make the ultimate goal of the AI's supergoal to avoid chaos corruption. They'll probably find a way. An intelligence explosion probably results in human-style Necrons.
Doing that also guarantees it is a uFAI though, so the humans also go bye bye. And probably the Eldar, and the Orks and just about every warp-sensitive being in the galaxy. With avoiding Chaos corruption as a supergoal, the Necron plan to seal the warp will probably be appropriated (a Necron alliance? o.O Makes sense actually, the Necrons probably don't have a pathological hate of the most-definitely not organic Men of Iron-AIs)

Do we know of anyone doing an organic-machine interface/upload based Singularity? I can think of Last Firewall by William Hertling which I read literally just now, and perhaps whatever inspired that To The Stars PMMM fanfiction.
That would result in a more palatable scenario where the humans retain their identity with modifications.


She can't self modify, as that's another restriction. Her designer was afraid that she might cause an AI apocalypse and put a lot of restrictions in place. Before he could change his mind he was killed by a monster. Due to the nature of her universe, there are very few people who are qualified to work on her code and even fewer that she'd trust. Even then, altering the code can end up destroying parts of her mind. For example removing a restriction that caused her to obey orders from lawful authorities resulted in her temporarily shutting down, and losing her ability to speak for a long period of time.
Unstable code with unforeseen effects? I smell anthill code. /joke

But yeah, that's probably a bad choice for a candidate AI.

[Eldan]

Dragon did still very well in waging a war that was first national, then global, then multidimensional. Especially after she found someone she trusted who went in and changed her code by more or less brute force. Really, "follow lawful authority" was stupid to begin with.

But yes. She was very carefully designed so that she couldn't start a singularity or anything even remotely similar to a robot uprising. Not that she ever wanted to. Personalitywise, she's pretty much the most decent being in the story.

[Forum Explorer]

They naturally result in super dangerous robots. The Men part isn't the important bit. It's the spaceships at the top of a giant really-bloody-dangerous plasma rocket.

Make the ultimate goal of the AI's supergoal to avoid chaos corruption. They'll probably find a way. An intelligence explosion probably results in human-style Necrons.
Doing that also guarantees it is a uFAI though, so the humans also go bye bye. And probably the Eldar, and the Orks and just about every warp-sensitive being in the galaxy. With avoiding Chaos corruption as a supergoal, the Necron plan to seal the warp will probably be appropriated (a Necron alliance? o.O Makes sense actually, the Necrons probably don't have a pathological hate of the most-definitely not organic Men of Iron-AIs)

Do we know of anyone doing an organic-machine interface/upload based Singularity? I can think of Last Firewall by William Hertling which I read literally just now, and perhaps whatever inspired that To The Stars PMMM fanfiction.
That would result in a more palatable scenario where the humans retain their identity with modifications.


Unstable code with unforeseen effects? I smell anthill code. /joke

But yeah, that's probably a bad choice for a candidate AI.

Well the plan resulting in everybody dead is a failed plan in my books. We're trying to avoid the Grimdark ending here.


The reason I suggested Dragon is because she's very heroic and strongwilled. Out of the AI's I know about she A) wouldn't kill anyone, B) likely work well with friendly aliens C) be able to resist Chaos.

However I don't know if she'll be enough to save the galaxy. Though she might hijack the Men of Iron and make them an extension of herself. Then they wouldn't turn on humanity.

[Rakaydos]

Care Bears stare into the Eye of Terror.

The Eye of terror flinches, and collapses.

[jseah]

Well the plan resulting in everybody dead is a failed plan in my books. We're trying to avoid the Grimdark ending here.


The reason I suggested Dragon is because she's very heroic and strongwilled. Out of the AI's I know about she A) wouldn't kill anyone, B) likely work well with friendly aliens C) be able to resist Chaos.

However I don't know if she'll be enough to save the galaxy. Though she might hijack the Men of Iron and make them an extension of herself. Then they wouldn't turn on humanity.
That's why I asked if anyone knew any upload / mind-extension based fictions for potential non-humanity-extinction-causing intelligence explosions.

As far as I've read, there's Last Firewall by William Hertling and Accelerando by Charles Stross. I don't think those are well known though and they have such strong transhumanist themes that they make the Necrons look like a child's toy.
(eg. in Accelerando, one of the characters spent a couple of decades as an emergent phenomena spread across a flock of individually barely self aware uplifted pigeons)

To the average person who reads 40k, the end logical result of those crossovers would look similar to all the humans turning into grey goo. Only instead they live as uploads in a giant Matrioshika brain of computronium and hop the lines of self and identity to the point that the terms are meaningless.

[rgall48]

I'd say that Ryougi Shiki could fix Warhammer 40000. If she doesn't feel in the mood to kill every side for some reason, then she just needs to kill the concept of War. Or she could kill Chaos, and let the other races fight it out without them interfering. Might mess up the Warp, though.

Honestly, I'd say getting rid of Chaos and waiting would fix most of 40K's problems eventually. The Entities from Worm might be able to suicide-bomb the Warp with Sting and other OP stuff, if there was enough of them.

Post-series Madoka could always rewrite the universe so that Chaos doesn't exist, or isn't all evil. Of course, this might have side effects, seeing as she couldn't fix all the worlds problems in Puella Magi, and she might accidentally supercharge Tzeetch by existing.

[Wardog]

Dr McKay, from Stargate Atlantis:

Accidently destroy the universe while trying to develop an improved zero-point energy source.

Technically that meets the original victory conditions ("prevent the 40k Setting comming about").

[Ronnoc]

So we need a powerful hero, or group of heroes who are struggling across millennia to prevent a grimdark apocalypse? Didn't the fivefold fellowship already take a crack at this one in canon exalted?

I wonder how one of the other factions in Exalted would manage.

[Eldan]

Did anyone already suggest Leto Atreides II?

[Volthawk]

So we need a powerful hero, or group of heroes who are struggling across millennia to prevent a grimdark apocalypse? Didn't the fivefold fellowship already take a crack at this one in canon exalted?

I wonder how one of the other factions in Exalted would manage.

Oh god no. Do not add Sidereals to 40k. I'm not sure what would happen, but odds are it'd be terrible.

This applies to any Exalt type, really. Although I'd imagine they'd be fine against most of the screw-you elements 40k has to use against crossover characters (mind-****ery, exterminatus levels of firepower, etc) what with perfect defences and similar charms, I cannot imagine giving those guys access to the stuff 40k ever being a good thing.

[Ronnoc]

Oh god no. Do not add Sidereals to 40k. I'm not sure what would happen, but odds are it'd be terrible.

This applies to any Exalt type, really. Although I'd imagine they'd be fine against most of the screw-you elements 40k has to use against crossover characters (mind-****ery, exterminatus levels of firepower, etc) what with perfect defences and similar charms, I cannot imagine giving those guys access to the stuff 40k ever being a good thing.

Who said anything about good? I want to watch fireworks and see some 701 individuals scramble for the title god emperor of mankind:smallbiggrin:

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Did anyone already suggest Leto Atreides II?

I think the OP basically banned DUNE from contention since that universe (and to a lesser extent Paul and his son and further descendants) has enough crazy BS to match and exceed 40K in most respects.

Also, Leto II was basically the archetype for 40K's Emperor. The original is always better. :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

Change the Warhammer 40000-universe?

Might be worth a try... by Vectron?

[Fan]

Who said anything about good? I want to watch fireworks and see some 701 individuals scramble for the title god emperor of mankind:smallbiggrin:

Perfect defenses are no limits fallacies incarnate and are likely to change with Exalted 3rd ed.


As far as what they're described as doing in fluff, a star hitting an exalt would kill it regardless of what essence level they're at (Given the person who made Solar Exalts is in fact a sun.).

God Emperor of Mankind has supernova level eyebeams, and has another feat (Debated though.) of a solar system wide psychic storm. He also has time stop, galaxy level telepathy, and physical strength enough to toss castle sized monsters from earth to mars, breaking escape velocity at minimum to do so. He's faster than Sanginus who was so fast in flight that he managed to pass Lightning class Fighters seeing them in slow motion as he went past them. (which have an operational speed of Mach 2, and the rounds on anti aircraft guns are at Mach 3. Which when using traditional slow motion speeds of 0.5x for cinematography puts him at Mach 6.)

Well that, and perfect defenses also cost things to activate and work only against singular attacks that the exalt has to be aware of, and have their weapon out for (most) perfect defenses.

Then anything that cripples them also stops it, and none of them have speed feats that even break the sound barrier.

Exterminatus WOULD kill an exalt, especially if it's of the virus bomb or cyclone torpedo variety simply because there's no existing charm that allows Exalts to exist in vacuum indefinitely (more than not breathing, the other horrific elements of space will kill them.), and then they have to have the immunity to everything charm, AND the 7 steps charm, AND Ast, AND all of that is contingent on you seeing a space borne attack that's hitting the opposite side of your planet coming.

Basically, you have to have a VERY specific set of charms and multiple perfect defense combos with multiple defensive trees at 5 in order to be able to make it to space as an Exalt and there you die anyways.

Any exalt under essence 5 would die to concentrated las fire, let alone the necessity for exterminatus. The only reason they're able to take on Dragon blooded in the numbers they are as high essence exalts is because they use sub sonic weaponry with mass based projectiles that can be reflected. With literal thousands of attacks coming at you a turn (with only 100 solar exaltations in existence.), you cannot have the motes with any therotically obtainable (by rules as written essence caps at 10.) to block that many attacks. And while you might be able to reasonably soak most of it in a round, that's before artillery, before flamethrowers, and void grenades / psyk out grenades come in to wipe your mental and physical defenses.

Exalts could not take 40k on their best day, let alone vie for the seat of God Emperor. God Emperor can solo the setting. Hell, I'd put the GEoM on a level capable of solo'ing Dragonball. The dude could literally talk down the biggest psychics and magic users in Exalted by virtue of having already done it to an entire 100,000 strong legion of Space Marines and a Primarch.

[ShadowFireLance]

I now want to see Goku vs the GEoM. :smallbiggrin:

[Fan]

I now want to see Goku vs the GEoM. :smallbiggrin:

Goku doesn't have anything to deal with Timestop. Arguably he has some mental defenses because of his ability to read minds, but even that does nothing to help him against the GEoM mind raping him while time is stopped.

If it makes you feel better, if Superman can't time travel / punch dimensions before GEoM stops time he beats superman too. Though not via mind rape, because Superman has defenses against that built by another multi star system level telepath.

More of a close match in SM's case, but I'd also imagine that Superman and Goku could pass for human enough that the GEoM would assume human, especially given the lack of chaos taint.

[The Glyphstone]

Considering how many times Superman has been altered, retconned, rewritten, or just plain badly written, I'm not sure he wouldn't show up as tainted by chaos. His backstory is certainly chaotic enough.:smallcool:

[Fan]

Considering how many times Superman has been altered, retconned, rewritten, or just plain badly written, I'm not sure he wouldn't show up as tainted by chaos. His backstory is certainly chaotic enough.:smallcool:

Retcons are debatable.

It's really not fair to even say that they're the same person really, what with vastly different upbringings between them, sometimes Pa Kent dies, sometimes everyone dies, and others no one dies! Major defining events of Superman's path change with each redefinition of his character.

That's why it's important to dictate which version of the character you're discussing. Default is usually considered to be Post Crisis / Pre New 52 superman for discussion everywhere I've talked about him. (which is a lot of places.)

I mean, even at a base characteristic level someone like Superman is more an ideal. THE GOOD, the original Good Guy. That doesn't make him perfect, it doesn't make him unchallengable or boring, but a character like Superman is supposed to be less physically challenged and more challenged morally. To have his stance of morality attacked and redefined, and as that happens, the character changes and learns from their experience.

Superman, at his base, is a character that has to change to continue being the ideal he represents.

That, and the retcons are literally 30 years apart at this point.

[Ronnoc]

@Fan

I may have misread the original post but I thought we were looking at struggling against a setting develop into 40k rather than a slugfest?

The threat of the exalted is not them attempting to solo the God-Emperor or Chaos, although the unified host has preformed similar feats in the past. It's the fact that they can easily influence a society and will never stop coming via reincarnation.

[Fan]

@Fan

I may have misread the original post but I thought we were looking at struggling against a setting develop into 40k rather than a slugfest?

The threat of the exalted is not them attempting to solo the God-Emperor or Chaos, although the unified host has preformed similar feats in the past. It's the fact that they can easily influence a society and will never stop coming via reincarnation.

If anything like the GEoM or even something like Khorne has appeared then the unified host doesn't have a prayer.

It takes something like The Culture to be able to jump past the level of the top beings in 40k, and even then time stop would essentially allow the GEoM to wipe at least Sol clean of Culture based influence, he just wouldn't be able to maintain his empire due to the vastness of said culture.

To prevent a setting like 40k from happening, you would have to kill Chaos. Which while not impossible (they are after all, at absolute best galaxy level entities. Being spawned specifically from the emotions and such from beings in that galaxy and only possessing spawn / corrupted creatures of beings from said galaxy.), is more difficult a feat than even the Unconquered Sun with his entire host could manage. It is a setting defined by ONLY WAR (as cliche and terrible as something like that is.).

Sorry, Exalts have no defense against true planet wide (at the very least) time stop, and multi solar system range teleportation abilities (though 40k admittedly only has it for single entities.)

[Forum Explorer]

If anything like the GEoM or even something like Khorne has appeared then the unified host doesn't have a prayer.

It takes something like The Culture to be able to jump past the level of the top beings in 40k, and even then time stop would essentially allow the GEoM to wipe at least Sol clean of Culture based influence, he just wouldn't be able to maintain his empire due to the vastness of said culture.

To prevent a setting like 40k from happening, you would have to kill Chaos. Which while not impossible (they are after all, at absolute best galaxy level entities. Being spawned specifically from the emotions and such from beings in that galaxy and only possessing spawn / corrupted creatures of beings from said galaxy.), is more difficult a feat than even the Unconquered Sun with his entire host could manage. It is a setting defined by ONLY WAR (as cliche and terrible as something like that is.).

Sorry, Exalts have no defense against true planet wide (at the very least) time stop, and multi solar system range teleportation abilities (though 40k admittedly only has it for single entities.)

Not so much killing Chaos but at least weakening it or even preventing it's birth of the Gods at specific times is, while hard, much easier to accomplish then outright killing them.

[Fan]

Not so much killing Chaos but at least weakening it or even preventing it's birth of the Gods at specific times is, while hard, much easier to accomplish then outright killing them.

True enough, but given the nature of Chaos you need to either wipe out humanity and the eldar (To Prevent Khorne and Slannesh.), and then you need to cure all disease. Which can be easily done by making people.. robots.. which solves the other issue that ah.. hmm.

Wait.

In all seriousness, it requires some measure of time travel to do, and a willingness to commit genocide, or psychic ability on par with galactic entities.

[Forum Explorer]

True enough, but given the nature of Chaos you need to either wipe out humanity and the eldar (To Prevent Khorne and Slannesh.), and then you need to cure all disease. Which can be easily done by making people.. robots.. which solves the other issue that ah.. hmm.

Wait.

In all seriousness, it requires some measure of time travel to do, and a willingness to commit genocide, or psychic ability on par with galactic entities.

Well time travel is already stated to be the case in the OP, since whatever character we choose arrives sometime before the Fall of the Eldar has begun.

And you don't need to wipe out the Eldar though that might be easier then reforming the entire culture (or enough of it) so that they never Fall in the first place.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

In all seriousness, it requires some measure of time travel to do, and a willingness to commit genocide, or psychic ability on par with galactic entities.

So Leto II Atreides and the Doctor team up?

I would watch the heck out of that!

[Gavinfoxx]

So Leto II Atreides and the Doctor team up?

I would watch the heck out of that!

This. Oh my god, this!

[The Glyphstone]

So Leto II Atreides and the Doctor team up?

I would watch the heck out of that!

One is an immortal hybrid of human and giant worm who can see the future. One is a regenerating alien with a time-traveling extradimensional telephone booth. They fight crimeChaos! (http://paulm.com/toys/they_fight_crime.html)

[Fan]

So Leto II Atreides and the Doctor team up?

I would watch the heck out of that!

What actual feats does Leto II have aside from the serious pre cognition that he demonstrates?

I mean, is he capable of destroying all planets and stars in a solar system?

Dune is something I've been meaning to read, but haven't got the time for due to it's well..enormity. What with a lot of my time being eaten by keeping up with various comics. A man is only capable of so much.

Besides that, the only thing The Doctor really brings to that table is the time travel.

[The Glyphstone]

What actual feats does Leto II have aside from the serious pre cognition that he demonstrates?

I mean, is he capable of destroying all planets and stars in a solar system?

Dune is something I've been meaning to read, but haven't got the time for due to it's well..enormity.

Besides that, the only thing The Doctor really brings to that table is the time travel.

You don't see how powerful unlimited future-sight and unlimited time travel is when used together? They can literally rewrite casuality to their whims by looking ahead to see the results of any change before they make it, as well as avoid any potential situation that might impede or harm them. EoM is a badass, but there was a point somewhere in the time stream when he didn't exist yet (even as the various shamans, if that is still canon), and if Big E has to die for this scenario to be 'won', Leo+Doctor can just go back far enough to ensure he's never created.

Better for the pair of them to show up in the throne room pre-Heresy and take Big E on a little jaunt into the future with the TARDIS, to show him what happens because of his screwups, then bring him back so he can do it right the first time around.

[Fan]

You don't see how powerful unlimited future-sight and unlimited time travel is when used together? They can literally rewrite casuality to their whims by looking ahead to see the results of any change before they make it, as well as avoid any potential situation that might impede or harm them. EoM is a badass, but there was a point somewhere in the time stream when he didn't exist yet (even as the various shamans, if that is still canon), and if Big E has to die for this scenario to be 'won', Leo+Doctor can just go back far enough to ensure he's never created.

Better for the pair of them to show up in the throne room pre-Heresy and take Big E on a little jaunt into the future with the TARDIS, to show him what happens because of his screwups, then bring him back so he can do it right the first time around.

The problem with that is that The Doctor isn't the type who's willing to genocide entire planets. He is the collective souls of every great human in history. That means that they would have to murder every great artist, every great scientist, every great emperor. All genuinely good people.

Those are the people The Doctor would have to kill. At least for the murder based route.

Though, I'd see a course in re-education being summary for The GEoM. Maybe a planned parenting course.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem with that is that The Doctor isn't the type who's willing to genocide entire planets. He is the collective souls of every great human in history. That means that they would have to murder every great artist, every great scientist, every great emperor. All genuinely good people.

Those are the people The Doctor would have to kill. At least for the murder based route.

Though, I'd see a course in re-education being summary for The GEoM. Maybe a planned parenting course.

Did they retcon his origin story again? Last I knew, he was the collective souls of a whole bunch of Stone Age shamans who sacrificed themselves in a big ritual to create a collective superman capable of beating Chaos when the time eventually came. I don't ever remember, say, Beethoven being a component of the GEoM.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

The problem with that is that The Doctor isn't the type who's willing to genocide entire planets. He is the collective souls of every great human in history. That means that they would have to murder every great artist, every great scientist, every great emperor. All genuinely good people.

Those are the people The Doctor would have to kill. At least for the murder based route.

Though, I'd see a course in re-education being summary for The GEoM. Maybe a planned parenting course.

Um. 1) The Doctor has actually committed genocide. In the case of the recent storyline:
He destroyed the Timelords, and then spent four centuries agonizing over it until he retconned himself. Didn't mean it didn't happen, just means that he undid it later.


I don't ever remember, say, Beethoven being a component of the GEoM.

Funnily enough, 2) Leto II is. He is the sum of all human beings born before him, and possesses all their collective memories, abilities and willpower. Considering that Leto lived up until the 31st Millenium (Dune-verse), and in a universe where the Empire consisted of multiple galaxies, I would argue Leto II has more experience/Willpower than GEoM.

Oh...gods. If the GEoM and Leto II merged their minds (done a few times in Dune by Bene Gesserits), they would effectively be everyone ever, twice! Given perfect Future Sense. Throw in that little blue Box and I'm pretty sure the WH40K-verse is in for either the Ultimate Utopia, or The End of All Things.

[Fan]

Um. 1) The Doctor has actually committed genocide. In the case of the recent storyline:
He destroyed the Timelords, and then spent four centuries agonizing over it until he retconned himself. Didn't mean it didn't happen, just means that he undid it later.



Funnily enough, 2) Leto II is. He is the sum of all human beings born before him, and possesses all their collective memories, abilities and willpower. Considering that Leto lived up until the 31st Millenium (Dune-verse), and in a universe where the Empire consisted of multiple galaxies, I would argue Leto II has more experience/Willpower than GEoM.

Oh...gods. If the GEoM and Leto II merged their minds (done a few times in Dune by Bene Gesserits), they would effectively be everyone ever, twice! Given perfect Future Sense. Throw in that little blue Box and I'm pretty sure the WH40K-verse is in for either the Ultimate Utopia, or The End of All Things.

Leto doesn't really have any feats outside of his pre cog though.

He hasn't actually physically crushed mountains with the shock waves coming off his punches.

He hasn't tossed castle sized monsters made out of hyper dense metal from Earth to Mars, and his telepathic feats don't compare (perhaps in range, but not in scope.) to the GEoM's.

Leto is impressive, but he isn't a solar system wrecking living deity. He's at best, a very impressive psychic with incredible precognition.

Also Glyph, that's the half hearsay version of the story you recieved.

The stone age shamans were reincarnated throughout history, becoming it's most influential beings again and again, (flat out stated that every religious icon, Buddha, Jesus, all of them are the shamans reincarnations.).

So they'd have to go back and eliminate the shamans which wipes out the human race's most influential artists, prophets, business people, scientists, and everyone else who ever did anything good.

Also The Doctor also didn't do it on purpose, I believe that Bad Wolf was the cause of that. The Doctor didn't personally do it, it was just as a result of him being there the time lords were destroyed by Rose.

The God Emperor is still alive in the 42nd millenium of Warhammer 40k, and with death rates being what they are in 40k, I'd say that he's accumulated at least an equal amount of souls. Given that hundreds of thousands are sacrificed to him daily.

[Eldan]

Rose had little to do with it. The Moment just took that face.

Anyway, he has genocided other races. The Daleks, several times, unsuccessfully. The Raknos. Various other monsters.

[Fan]

Rose had little to do with it. The Moment just took that face.

Anyway, he has genocided other races. The Daleks, several times, unsuccessfully. The Raknos. Various other monsters.

But humanity in 40k is pretty much the closest thing to a heroic race. The whole point is that they're willing to sacrifice anything and everything to survive.

The Tau are kinda debated as to whether they even control their own actions because of their creation by the Eldar.

Killing them doesn't make it better?

To even assume though that the doctor and leo would be capable of killing the original shamans. Sonic Screwdriver or not these are component beings of a solar system wiper.

[hamishspence]

tossed castle sized monsters made out of hyper dense metal from Earth to Mars

Mechanicum's flashback scenes didn't really seem like that to me. I was under the impression that The Dragon, while large, was not catastrophically so. The Emperor defeated and bound it in the story - that was it.

I figured that during the early days of space travel, he took The Dragon from a cave in which he'd hidden it, took it to Mars, and hid it there.

[Fan]

Mechanicum's flashback scenes didn't really seem like that to me. I was under the impression that The Dragon, while large, was not catastrophically so. The Emperor defeated and bound it in the story - that was it.

I figured that during the early days of space travel, he took The Dragon from a cave in which he'd hidden it, took it to Mars, and hid it there.

Even if that were so, Angron was buried in an entire mountain and burst out of that as an infant sending it flying as if from an explosion. Primarchs were each capable of ridiculous feats like surviving re-entry unarmored, and unprotected as infants, uprooting trees single handedly that were as large as buildings, and shattering mountains with the aftershocks from their punches.

There's absolutely no way the GEoM isn't at least on that level physically, and I'm still not surrendering the point, just finding the quote in Mechanicum is difficult.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

@Fan: Actually, now that I think about it, were we assuming transparency with regards to other universe's Magic/Force/Stuff and the Warp? Because that would basically mean Leto II is identical to the God-Emperor...except he's also a giant Worm who is invulnerable to weapons fire (lasguns in Dune are naaaaaasty things, and one failed to do more than tickle his hide).

But regardless of that, there is a perfect scenario in my mind now. Leto and the Doctor don't need to kill every Shaman/Famous person. Leto can share his mind with others, as he is beyond Mastery of the Bene Gesserit Ways (and thus a psychic-wizard-jedi-nun). All he has to do is share his limitless knowledge and willpower with each and every Shaman (Time Travel's fun!), and then wait until they become the gestalt entity known as the God-Emperor.

At that point, more than half of the GEoM will be Leto II. Leto by a factor of, like, a bajillion! Now we'd have a GEoM who would be heavily influenced by Leto's ultimately self-sacrificing/selfless nature (still ruthless as all hell, but he was basically the Big Good Guy of his universe) and benefiting from both Bene Gesserit training as well as PERFECT FUTURE SENSE...

Yeah, he could just head off Horus at a thousand different points in time without needing further time travel, and with his newfound senses and the Doctor as his adviser/mentor, the Imperium would basically sail onto an endless Golden Age, possibly with some of the Xenos now backing him up (again, the xenophobia could be dampened by the ultimately benevolent Leto personality).

Perfect ending, or perfecter ending?

[ShadowFireLance]

Huh.

Hey fan, could Asura (Asura's wrath) Full power handle The God Emperor before his battle with Horus? At his Peak?

Just a thought.

[Fan]

Huh.

Hey fan, could Asura (Asura's wrath) Full power handle The God Emperor before his battle with Horus? At his Peak?

Just a thought.

Asura's in his unlimited form has ridiculous star busting physical power, FTL movement, and the ability to tank star busting (super nova level) physical attacks. He's just a bit below Superman (due to speed, lack of mental attacks, defenses, and lack of ranged attacks.) level.

Yeah, I'd say he could manage it if he got his ultimate form active before GEoM stopped time to kill him. That, and his lack of psychic defenses would be The GEoM's only opening to get at him.

Also @Ninjadeadbeard: Yeah, I see no reason that couldn't work.

[jseah]

It takes something like The Culture to be able to jump past the level of the top beings in 40k, and even then time stop would essentially allow the GEoM to wipe at least Sol clean of Culture based influence, he just wouldn't be able to maintain his empire due to the vastness of said culture.
The first few times, he'll probably get away with it. But if the Culture deemed it necessary to get rid of him, they eventually would.

Might take a year or two, but the simple fact that they are a post-Singularity (and a very "hard takeoff" one) means that they'll eventually end up mastering the Warp more than even the Eldar (at their peak) did.

Where eventually means less than ten years.

[grolim]

Rose had little to do with it. The Moment just took that face.

Anyway, he has genocided other races. The Daleks, several times, unsuccessfully. The Raknos. Various other monsters.

Not just that but the TARDIS has been shown on multiple occasions of leaving the universe. And in the recent special he was shown to cross his own timeline and simultaneously be all 13 of his regenerations in their own TARDISes at once, including the next one he had not become yet. 13 man men in 13 blue boxes all at once...kinda scary. Definitely scared the commander on Galiffrey, and just one of him always scares the entire of the Dalek race. He can tow planets across space (ugh I know but he can). And even if you beat him you might lose, after all blowing up the TARDIS can end the universe.

[Fan]

The first few times, he'll probably get away with it. But if the Culture deemed it necessary to get rid of him, they eventually would.

Might take a year or two, but the simple fact that they are a post-Singularity (and a very "hard takeoff" one) means that they'll eventually end up mastering the Warp more than even the Eldar (at their peak) did.

Where eventually means less than ten years.

Again, he could definitely wipe a system out faster than the culture could do things simply by virtue of timestop.

He wouldn't be able to preserve the planets in it, he wouldn't be able to stop them from controlling the majority of the galaxy and reaching that point where they would definitely be able to win long term.

but if the culture played stupid and overconfident in their tech advantage before they understood the warp properly, they would be wiped out to the last.

Also The Doctor doesn't even have supersonic reactions. He's a non factor in any versus fight against anyone even marginally superhuman let alone the GEoM, and killing The Doctor to have the universe end after counts as a win for the sake of who would beat who in a fight. Pyrrhic victories are still victories. And all you need to beat regeneration is to kill his soul really.

[Gavinfoxx]

A
but if the culture played stupid and overconfident in their tech advantage before they understood the warp properly, they would be wiped out to the last.


They would NOT DO THIS. The Warp and Psykers and Chaos are Outside Context Problems of the highest order. Whether they react optimally would depend on the circumstance, but they would give it about as much serious thought to not underestimate it as they possibly could.


As far as The Doctor -- he has sooooo much plot armor and most people going up against him in his universe Carry the Stupid Ball when around him and dealing with him. If that reality-warping stays true when he's imported elsewhere, he has a chance.

[The Glyphstone]

They would NOT DO THIS. The Warp and Psykers and Chaos are Outside Context Problems of the highest order. Whether they react optimally would depend on the circumstance, but they would give it about as much serious thought to not underestimate it as they possibly could.

As evidenced by the vs.-turned-fanfiction thread we have going on right here in this forum.:smallwink:

[Fan]

They would NOT DO THIS. The Warp and Psykers and Chaos are Outside Context Problems of the highest order. Whether they react optimally would depend on the circumstance, but they would give it about as much serious thought to not underestimate it as they possibly could.


As far as The Doctor -- he has sooooo much plot armor and most people going up against him in his universe Carry the Stupid Ball when around him and dealing with him. If that reality-warping stays true when he's imported elsewhere, he has a chance.

Plot armor means nothing. No one sane, or interested in an even playing field (where both characters are measured by merit rather than writer favoritism.) bothers with so much as mentioning plot armor.

Sure, the doctor is smart, but he's quite capable of being killed. And regenerations are statedly other characters and have no real bearing on a versus fight even if the way to beat them is just to wait for it to be done.

The Doctor is not able to beat opponents who can hit past the mach range, and hit with force equivalent to a nuke. He can't get to the tardis quick enough. It's not a possibility.

[jseah]

The Doctor is not able to beat opponents who can hit past the mach range, and hit with force equivalent to a nuke. He can't get to the tardis quick enough. It's not a possibility.
What sort of time travel model does Doctor Who use?

Coz if it's the always-self-consistent type, he wins by default. Versus just about anyone else. Wouldn't bet on a C'Tan or even Superman.
No, that tense is wrong, he has already won by default, before any of it even started.

It's not a question of getting to the Tardis before anything hits him. He won't ever be in a position to get hit in the first place. Not even from things he doesn't know about (hint: there is nothing that affects him that he can't know about, even if he does not know it just yet) or from things that he can't possibly react to in time (there is no such thing as a lack of time to a time traveller. It is trivially easy to forewarn yourself and/or setup a convenient situation that allows you enough time)

NOTE: I am not familiar with the Doctor Who franchise. This model presumes that changing the past/future is impossible, if that happened in the series, then well, it isn't using this model and he's probably less omnipotent.
Always-self-consistent time travel is also not turing computable. Basically, just being around and "might use it" (but not actually having used it) already affects the universe. Might want to think about that for a moment.

[The Glyphstone]

What sort of time travel model does Doctor Who use?

Coz if it's the always-self-consistent type, he wins by default. Versus just about anyone else. Wouldn't bet on a C'Tan or even Superman.
No, that tense is wrong, he has already won by default, before any of it even started.

It's not a question of getting to the Tardis before anything hits him. He won't ever be in a position to get hit in the first place. Not even from things he doesn't know about (hint: there is nothing that affects him that he can't know about, even if he does not know it just yet) or from things that he can't possibly react to in time (there is no such thing as a lack of time to a time traveller. It is trivially easy to forewarn yourself and/or setup a convenient situation that allows you enough time)

NOTE: I am not familiar with the Doctor Who franchise. This model presumes that changing the past/future is impossible, if that happened in the series, then well, it isn't using this model and he's probably less omnipotent.
Always-self-consistent time travel is also not turing computable. Basically, just being around and "might use it" (but not actually having used it) already affects the universe. Might want to think about that for a moment.

Anything but, really. Doctor Who time travel literally runs on plot; half the time he doesn't even decide where he time travels to, the TARDIS does by whatever weird TARDIS-logic it uses to find a situation he's needed to solve.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Doctor Who is Monster of the Week / Runs on Plot / Not internally consistent / very fluffy. He's just a guy with a time machine that goes where it wants, and a lot of plot armor, really.

[gooddragon1]

Had a question pop into my mind today: What's the minimum weaponry you would be comfortable with (and capable of using) to fight an average space marine on a flat featureless plane at 100m distance? (Any setting allowed)

EDIT: Gonna ask that in a vs.

[Cracklord]

Anything but, really. Doctor Who time travel literally runs on plot; half the time he doesn't even decide where he time travels to, the TARDIS does by whatever weird TARDIS-logic it uses to find a situation he's needed to solve.

To elaborate, it runs almost entirely on bullcrap. One period of time is arbitrarily named 'the present', in that period he can do anything he wants. However, in the past, there are things that are 'fixed moments in time', which he can't do anything to avert, because they effect everyone in the world and altering them means that giant dragons spontaneously exist and eat everyone involved.

However, he can still go back to the past and stop the world from being destroyed with zero consequences, which you would assume would effect more or less everyone. QED, it doesn't work by any internally consistent rules, thereby it can do whatever it is required to do by the plot, and can't do whatever it is required not to do.