[D&D 3.5] The Bloodlines Debate

[Kevingway]

This is something I'd like to get actively involved in, more for the sake of fully comprehending the (two?) systems of interpretation that have become somewhat mainstream, based on my readings.

System one (credits here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167)):

Character level is 2. You get enough experience to level up to level 3, but you instead take a Bloodline level. Your character level remains 2, your exp resets, and you level up again through the same level in which you started (2). All of this is due to the word "before," combined with the "do not increase a character’s character level the way a normal class level does" clause; "before" signifies, roughly, that you do not take this Bloodline level "at" level 3, but for the system to make sense, you must take it right before the 3-6-12 intervals in order to have a fair/streamlined system of earning the lost exp back after taking said Bloodline level (so no delaying your ECL 3 for 3 cycles of low 3rd-level exp requirements).

System two (credits here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208703)):

Bloodline levels count toward your ECL. They can be taken at any time, assuming you want to get them out of the way early or give yourself a ridiculous exp penalty for delaying them. These levels effectively make you 17 X/3 Bloodline by the time you hit level 20, making this interpretation out to be more similar to actual level adjustments with no opportunity to buy them off.

---

While the latter interpretation would seemingly make more sense, the specific wording cited in the former interpretation makes the second one (almost) impossible. "Before" could simply imply that you could take these bloodline levels anytime you wanted, but if it doesn't count toward your ECL, you end up with either an unaccounted for exp anomaly where you have to earn more exp than your counterparts to reach the same ECL, or you cheese the system and essentially take every bloodline you can at low levels to only pay a low cost for them as opposed to a higher cost later on.

Now that that's out of the way, what are some others? Are my interpretations of these two interpretations accurate? I'd really like to just look at everything in perspective and become more involved in this so that I can get more of a feel for what I actually believe. My interpretation has changed back and forth considerably in the last few hours.

[shaikujin]

I intially thought it was the latter too, where it's simple LA that cannot be bought off.

I though of it as LA initially because that was what I was familiar with.



But after reading up more a few years ago, esp PBMC's handbook, I have been convinced it's the former, where it acts like spending XP to get certain benefits. It's the only way it makes sense (and fits all the RAW wording) if we examine each of the Bloodlines RAW statements (at least to me).

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, like shaikujin, I've gotten some good insights from PBMC's guide. Also, the fact that the chart goes up to exactly character level 20 strongly suggests it's supposed to be playable all the way through pre-epic, which wouldn't work if it was part of ECL (since no one with any bloodline levels at all would be able to reach 20 total character levels at ECL 20).

[Deophaun]

The only other interpretation I've seen is a hybrid of the two:

You take your bloodline level, your XP doesn't reset, but your ECL doesn't increase. Now, to go from level 2 to level 3, it costs just as much as going from level 3 to level 4, but since your ECL is lower, you gain more XP.

Seems really dodgy to me, though.

[Kevingway]

I intially thought it was the latter too, where it's simple LA that cannot be bought off.

I though of it as LA initially because that was what I was familiar with.

But after reading up more a few years ago, esp PBMC's handbook, I have been convinced it's the former, where it acts like spending XP to get certain benefits. It's the only way it makes sense (and fits all the RAW wording) if we examine each of the Bloodlines RAW statements (at least to me).


Yeah, like shaikujin, I've gotten some good insights from PBMC's guide. Also, the fact that the chart goes up to exactly character level 20 strongly suggests it's supposed to be playable all the way through pre-epic, which wouldn't work if it was part of ECL (since no one with any bloodline levels at all would be able to reach 20 total character levels at ECL 20).

I'm starting to agree. Then again, level adjustments allow you to play a character up to 20, since you'd have 17 class levels with an ECL of 20 (assuming +3 LA or Bloodlines), so I'm still a little shaky about it.


The only other interpretation I've seen is a hybrid of the two:

You take your bloodline level, your XP doesn't reset, but your ECL doesn't increase. Now, to go from level 2 to level 3, it costs just as much as going from level 3 to level 4, but since your ECL is lower, you gain more XP.

Seems really dodgy to me, though.

I agree. I dislike that interpretation, though I'm starting to think that the "more exp" portion will almost have to be the case if we go with the former interpretation. I hate to incorporate such a tactic, but I guess it isn't terribly different than anything else out there if you're a caster; melee, on the other hand, which needs a buff, can be put on a semi-equal ground, perhaps.

[TuggyNE]

I'm starting to agree. Then again, level adjustments allow you to play a character up to 20, since you'd have 17 class levels with an ECL of 20 (assuming +3 LA or Bloodlines), so I'm still a little shaky about it.

Yes, except the bloodlines table references character level specifically: you get your last benefits at character level 20. Which means that either they don't show up at all, you're ECL 21-23 when they show up, or else bloodlines don't count for ECL.

[dradamh]

System 2 is correct. Bloodlines are class levels. They are not level adjustments. The wording is quite clear.

[dradamh]

Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline."

Also "before" means before and not "immediately before". That is clear because you can in fact take the level "after" but you lose the benefits of the bloodline and take an xp penalty until you take the bloodline class level.

A 20th level character with a major bloodline would therefore be 17 x (likely subdivided into multiclasses) and 3 Bloodline class.

They would have all 20 levels in the bloodline class traits which they received based on their current character level.

I am not certain why so much confusion. There is nothing in the text that indicated that bloodlines are level adjustments and not class levels.

[Swaoeaeieu]

I am no rules lawyer of any quality, but the first time i read the rules something looking like system one formed in my mind. Then i found the explenation online wich agreed. so in my mind it was never a debate until i found a lively discussion about it on this forum :P

[Kevingway]

I'm surprised that this got bumped from so long ago, but I'm fully in favor of the first interpretation now after careful consideration.

[Extra Anchovies]

Yes, except the bloodlines table references character level specifically: you get your last benefits at character level 20. Which means that either they don't show up at all, you're ECL 21-23 when they show up, or else bloodlines don't count for ECL.

I'm in this boat as well. When you take a level in a bloodline class, your effective character level does not increase.

[Vortenger]

I intially thought it was the latter too, where it's simple LA that cannot be bought off.

I though of it as LA initially because that was what I was familiar with.

But after reading up more a few years ago, esp PBMC's handbook, I have been convinced it's the former, where it acts like spending XP to get certain benefits. It's the only way it makes sense (and fits all the RAW wording) if we examine each of the Bloodlines RAW statements (at least to me).

This.

The thread necromancy is probably not great, but this topic was likely to pop up again soon anyways.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: This was almost a year old. Restart it if need be. Otherwise, let it lie.