[3.5] Abjurant champions questions

[Cryov]

Seem to be having issues finding decent answers anywhere -_-
I have some questions regarding abjurant champion.

Does the abjurant champions class abilities apply to abjuration spells use through wands or scrolls? Really can't find anything about it in the rules.
I imagine Abjurant Armor and Extended Abjuration *might*. Swift Abjuration I don't think would since it is a standard action for scrolls/wands.

My second question:
Abjuration spells with AC bonus to Armor or Shield..dont know them all >>

Shield
Repelling Shield
Luminous Armor (banned)
Deflect
Ectoplasmic Armor to incorp touch

Any others I am missing?
I also apologize if this comes up alot..just woke up and my google-fu is nerfed in the mornings.


fyi I am running:
Duskblade 1/Warlock 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Hellfire Warlock 3/Abjurant Champion 2/Eldritch Theurge 6
Advancing warlock the whole time and took Precocious Apprentice for the 2nd level arcane spell requirements for the other classes. Currently level 12, about to get my last 2 in Abjurant champ.

[Devronq]

Mage armor... oh wait that's not even.abjuration even though in the description of the class it says something along the times of "AC depends on spells like mage armor and shield instead of actual armor." I highly suggest asking your dm to pretend mage armor and the greater version are abjuration instead of conjuration.

[Waker]

Does the abjurant champions class abilities apply to abjuration spells use through wands or scrolls? Really can't find anything about it in the rules.
I imagine Abjurant Armor and Extended Abjuration *might*. Swift Abjuration I don't think would since it is a standard action for scrolls/wands.
I would say they wouldn't count. If the description of the abilities said they affected spells simply cast upon you, it would be fine. However it specifies spells that you cast, which you aren't doing, you are activating an item.

My second question:
Abjuration spells with AC bonus to Armor or Shield..dont know them all >>
Can't seem to find any others.

[hymer]

Luminous Armor (BoED) and its greater variant are abjuration and give armour bonus to AC.
Do note that the example says that the AbjCh uses spells like these instead of armour. And then goes on to say that certain defensive buffs are better. I don't see why people keep insisting on reading into it that Mage Armor ought to get that bonus. It's not like AbjCh needs any more help, it's arguably the very best arcane gish prestige class.

[Cryov]

I would say they wouldn't count. If the description of the abilities said they affected spells simply cast upon you, it would be fine. However it specifies spells that you cast, which you aren't doing, you are activating an item.

Can't seem to find any others.

Problem is, after looking into the rules for wands and scrolls, I dont see anything that says it would or wouldnt work. Kind of fluff but those 2 abilities are Su so you'd think it would..

[MirddinEmris]

Well, if it's any consolation, RAI (straight from the class author's mouth) it should apply to mage armor and the iconic character for this PrC is sorcerer and he doesn't know Shield spell, yet the Abjurant Armor bonus calculated in his AC. Use this arguments to persuade your DM :smallsmile:

P.S. And yes, it should apply to spells from scrolls and wands, because wording is
Any time you cast an abjuration spell... and you are casting those spells, just from scrolls and wands and not from from spell slots.

[dantiesilva]

I am in a game right now with a friend of mine playing a Eilistraee touched Drow ( No LA buyoff sadly) Wizard 1/Paladin 5(don't ask about the wizard thing we still can not figure it out really)/Abjurant champion 2. Even though her effective class level is the same as us (we are all level 11) she not only keeps up with us, but even outshines everyone except my DMM cleric. And even then on a charging smite, she gives a new meaning to Power attack in our group. We have only access to Core, All the completes except Champion and scoundral, Mic, SpC, and Races of the wild just got added this chapter. Our DM is very buy the book and her build outshines everyone in the fields of AC. Deals the second most amount of damage, first if a GDM gets sent my way. And casts paladin spells on top of her Wizard spells. Does she have a lot, no, but she hands down is a very powerful character.

With that being said Abjurant champion is extremly powerful and does not need mage armor. Simply casting Alterself followed by a Extended Quicked Scintillating Scales ( both of which are free due to Abjurant champion) gets her AC to nigh untouchable at 34. Throw in now her deflect adding +3 more and that is 37AC. She also has Urgent shield ACF, so hitting her has become a matter of our enemies needing to score a crit as of late. So I must ask why do you need mage armor?

[MirddinEmris]

I am in a game right now with a friend of mine playing a Eilistraee touched Drow ( No LA buyoff sadly) Wizard 1/Paladin 5(don't ask about the wizard thing we still can not figure it out really)/Abjurant champion 2. Even though her effective class level is the same as us (we are all level 11) she not only keeps up with us, but even outshines everyone except my DMM cleric. And even then on a charging smite, she gives a new meaning to Power attack in our group. We have only access to Core, All the completes except Champion and scoundral, Mic, SpC, and Races of the wild just got added this chapter. Our DM is very buy the book and her build outshines everyone in the fields of AC. Deals the second most amount of damage, first if a GDM gets sent my way. And casts paladin spells on top of her Wizard spells. Does she have a lot, no, but she hands down is a very powerful character.

With that being said Abjurant champion is extremly powerful and does not need mage armor. Simply casting Alterself followed by a Extended Quicked Scintillating Scales ( both of which are free due to Abjurant champion) gets her AC to nigh untouchable at 34. Throw in now her deflect adding +3 more and that is 37AC. She also has Urgent shield ACF, so hitting her has become a matter of our enemies needing to score a crit as of late. So I must ask why do you need mage armor?

Well, some of us don't like to abuse the hell out of polymorph line of spells for a start (and divine metamagic probably, otherwise i don't know how she casts quckened extended spell ) :)) If you look closely, you'll see that power of that character doesn't come from Abjurant Champion and high AC, wich doesn't even apply to touch except incorporeal touch, isn't that powerful, it is just nice to have (miss chances are SO much better). Don't get me wrong, it's a solid class for a gish, but certainly not overpowered and still has right to have nice things, which it's author was intended to give it anyway

[Madwand99]

With that being said Abjurant champion is extremly powerful and does not need mage armor. Simply casting Alterself followed by a Extended Quicked Scintillating Scales ( both of which are free due to Abjurant champion) gets her AC to nigh untouchable at 34. Throw in now her deflect adding +3 more and that is 37AC. She also has Urgent shield ACF, so hitting her has become a matter of our enemies needing to score a crit as of late. So I must ask why do you need mage armor?

How is her "deflect" adding another +3 on top of the deflection bonus provided by Scintillating Scales? As far as I know, they won't stack.

[herrhauptmann]

How is her "deflect" adding another +3 on top of the deflection bonus provided by Scintillating Scales? As far as I know, they won't stack.

I thought dodge and deflection bonuses were the only ones that stacked on a regular basis.
Nevermind.
Scintillating is natural armor to touch AC right? How does that boost regular AC at all? Or is the player getting 34 regular just from the polymorph?
Deflect spell is a shield bonus equal to 1/2 caster level. That's how it works on top of scintillating scales.

Regarding other spells.
Was in a similar conversation a while back. I recommend reading the entire thread, but here's the list of usable spells.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10409481&postcount=47

[Deophaun]

P.S. And yes, it should apply to spells from scrolls and wands, because wording is and you are casting those spells, just from scrolls and wands and not from from spell slots.
Except you don't cast spells from wands and scrolls. Instead, you activate them.

[MirddinEmris]

Except you don't cast spells from wands and scrolls. Instead, you activate them.

I'll be damned, you are right. Though i certainly remember phrase "casting from a scroll" from somewhere. Also there is this thing:


Determine Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way.

What is a "normal way" is a little vague for me, though i think one can use as an argument for applying abjurant armor bonus if he is good in rhetoric arts :smallsmile:

[KillianHawkeye]

If you check the errata for Abjurant Champion, the reference to Mage Armor has been removed.

[dantiesilva]

Actually the character does not use DMM at all, and 2nd level spells is the highest level she has access to at this time.

A level 1 Abjurant champion can extend any Abjurant spell they cast for free, and at 2nd level they can quicken it as well. So I think that turns the whole counter you put out upside down.

[MirddinEmris]

Actually the character does not use DMM at all, and 2nd level spells is the highest level she has access to at this time.

A level 1 Abjurant champion can extend any Abjurant spell they cast for free, and at 2nd level they can quicken it as well. So I think that turns the whole counter you put out upside down.

Actually, there is a polymorph-line spells abuse and charging damage from paladin, so...totally not the whole counter :smallwink: