Help with a Gestalt Questions

[7th son of sons]

I am joining in on a campaign with my friends. There aren't many of us (4 exactly), and the campaign is evil aligned. Two of my friends want to be melee specialists, and the other would very much like to do a lot of skills/sneak attacking. That left (most) of the spellcasting to me. My friends are all well versed in character optimization, so our DM has no problem with absurd power levels, save for Pun-Pun, Planar Shepherd, and Shapechange. So this was my intended build, the god of magic.

Bard 1/Sorceror 1
Cleric 1/Duskblade 1
Wizard 1/Spellthief 1
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 1/Duskblade 2
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 2/Duskblade 3
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 3/Duskblade 4
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 4/Duskblade 5
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 5/Paragon of Gnome 1
Dread Witch 1/Spellthief 2
Nightmare Spinner 1/Spellthief 3
Sublime Chord 1/Spellthief 4
Sublime Chord 2/Spellthief 5
Dread Witch (Wizard) 2/Spellthief 6
Dread Witch (Wizard) 3/Spellthief 7
Dread Witch (Wizard) 4/Spellthief 8
Dread Witch (Wizard) 5/ Spellthief 9
Nightmare Spinner (Sorceror) 2/Spellthief 10
Nightmare Spinner (Bard) 3/Marshal 1
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 6/Paragon of Gnome 2
Mystic Theurge (Wizard/Cleric) 7/Paragon of Gnome 3

The Questions are as follows:
1.) Do I choose which spell cast Sublime Chord gets to progress, does it specifically only advance bard, or does it advance them all (OP)?

2.) If I took the master Spellthief feat at the 18th level (and I planned to), would that advance all my Arcane spellcasting classes by 10 lvls?

3.) Does Duskblade's 5th level ability apply to spells cast by any class, as in can I sudden Cast Wizards "Wish" spell?

4.) Are there any +0 LA Templates to slap on a Pathfinder Gnome (-2 Str, +2 Con and +2 Cha), to get more Mental Skills?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, thurgic classes are soft forbidden in the gestalt rules. I would clarify with your DM to make sure he allows them.

Sublime chord has it's own casting. It doesn't advance the casting of any other class.

Quickcast can be used on any spell

Masterspellthief is worded in an odd way. Ask your DM how he wants to handle it in gestalt.

[Metahuman1]

Suggestion:

Wizard 1//Cloistered Cleric 1
Wizard 8// Archivist 8
Prestige Bard 1//Archivist 1
Incantatrix 10//Archivist 10


Enjoy having every spell in the game known and the ability to persist nearly any buff you fancy for yourself at the start.

[dspeyer]

Also, even if Mystic Theurge is allowed in this game, how are you qualifying for it?

[Jgosse]

I am sorry but you have 11 Classes in there and that is ridiculous. Every Gestalt game I have been involved in or know some one in bonded the classes. if you take fighter/monk you have to take both every time you want one or the other.

[7th son of sons]

Jgosse: How does that version of Gestalt work? My DM simply told us it meant being able to take 2 differing classes simultaneously, being able to Prestiege on only one side, and not being able to advance the same class simultaneously. Is this incorrect, or is there more to Gestalting than I was given information on?

Dspeyer: First Level Heigthen Spell, Third Level Versatile Spellcaster. Give up two first level spell slots to cast one "second level" spell. My DM showed me the trick on an NPC once, and i borrowed it from her.'

Metahuman: Love it. Considering it depending on future rulings.

Fouredged Sword: My DM said she would allow theurgic prestiege classes, so long as you don't advance a class twice in the same level (note I did not mystic theurge and wizard on the same levels), to allow for truly powerful sneak attacks/spells/ what have you, as the majority of the enemies we will face in an Evil campaign will be NPC's of Gestalt Builds as well. She was unsure of the rulings on multiple spellcasting bonus' with Spellthief, and directed me to these forum's to seek help.

I'm sorry if this feels like a lot of uestioning or missing information, I'm just trying to get clarification. This is the first time any of us have run Gestalt classes, and so our understanding might be limited.

[Jgosse]

Jgosse: How does that version of Gestalt work? My DM simply told us it meant being able to take 2 differing classes simultaneously, being able to Prestiege on only one side, and not being able to advance the same class simultaneously. Is this incorrect, or is there more to Gestalting than I was given information on?

I'm sorry if this feels like a lot of uestioning or missing information, I'm just trying to get clarification. This is the first time any of us have run Gestalt classes, and so our understanding might be limited.

Well I am only talking about my experience so maybe I am in the minority.

we will go with a monk/fighter
you get fighter BAB, monk Saves, Monk Skill points, both skill lists, and both the fighter bonus Feats and monk class abilities.
now if you also say wanted Sneak Attack you would take Rouge and say barbarian.
Barbarian BAB, Rouge Reflex Save, Barbarian Fort, will is the same, you get Rouge Skills, both Skill lists, and both sets of class abilities.
so you could be a

Fighter/monk 2
Rouge/Barbarian 2

but at no point could you then Take a Level of say of monk/scout or fighter/rouge.
as for PrC I have seen two . 1 if you take a PrC you only get the PrC . 2 you pick another non PrC to pair with the PrC
so Cleric/Dwarven defender.

[Vedhin]

Well I am only talking about my experience so maybe I am in the minority.

You are indeed in the minority. However, you do seem to have avoided the concept of sides.
Most people seem to assume that, for example, the following build is illegal:

Level 1: Rogue//Wizard
Level 2: Rogue//Fighter
Level 3: Wizard//Fighter

Because levels of Wizard appear on both "sides". The rules, however, do not actually support the concept of sides, and explicitly state that you do not take a level in Rogue and a level in Wizard, but a level in Rogue//Wizard.

[Jgosse]

I just would hate to see something like.

Fighter/monk
Fighter/monk
Fighter/favored soul
Fighter/favored soul
Fighter/bard
Fighter/bard
Fighter/cleric
Fighter/cleric
Fighter/druid
Fighter/druid

have a full BAB and 12/12/12 saves now I know this is a exaggeration of what some one will actually do but is clearly shows my point of how with out regulation it has the potential to get ridiculous.

[Fouredged Sword]

Fighter/monk
Fighter/monk
Fighter/favored soul
Fighter/favored soul
Fighter/bard
Fighter/bard
Fighter/cleric
Fighter/cleric
Fighter/druid
Fighter/druid


That is awful, really awful. I mean not very good. Your character is little more than a fighter with a few tricks and first level spells. Really, not a great build.

[Jgosse]

That is awful, really awful. I mean not very good. Your character is little more than a fighter with a few tricks and first level spells. Really, not a great build.

Did you even read the second half of my post?

[Icewraith]

Most people also use fractional saves/BAB in gestalt. I houserule that you get the starting 2.5 save only once in each category (fort/ref/will). It keeps the people going straight class x/y and the people dipping like crazy within the same range of possible saves.

[demigodus]

Did you even read the second half of my post?

Doesn't change anything.

Exaggerations are supposed to show a really extreme version of a problem. If you are trying to show that not bonding classes is broken, you would need some build that abuses the lack of bonding and is extremely powerful. The build you gave, isn't.

That is a lvl 10 gestalt build, that would crumble before the might of a lvl 10 wizard, cleric, or druid. Non-gestalt, no-PrCs.

Basically, it doesn't 'clearly show' your point, since there is nothing in its abilities that could be considered ridiculous. It has pretty good saves, and, well, that is it.

[Icewraith]

If you were pushing dipping to the extreme you'd find ten such class combinations such that you gain the starting good save on every level. So at level ten your saves would be 20s across the board.

[Jgosse]

ok I am sorry, I was at work and in a hurry I did not have time to waste an hour pawing though books to build the most broken Gestalt possible. I was trying to show very quickly with one attribute how it can be abused.

[bekeleven]

If you were pushing dipping to the extreme you'd find ten such class combinations such that you gain the starting good save on every level. So at level ten your saves would be 20s across the board.

You don't need to houserule this.


For each save bonus, choose the better progression from the two classes. For example, a 1st-level gestalt fighter/wizard would have base saving throw bonuses of Fortitude +2, Reflex +0, Will +2—taking the good Fortitude save from the fighter class and the good Will save from the wizard class.

If you have a Wizard 3 //Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1, what is your base will save? Well, since you've had the best will save progression for three straight levels, it's identical to the wizard's will save of +3. Some people put +6 on their character sheets. I don't see that reflected in the rules at all.

It's slightly more complicated with regards to fort save, which went good/bad/good. My preference is to call it 2 levels of good save and 1 level of bad, for a total fort save of +3.

Reflex save has been bad for 3 levels, netting +1.

[Vedhin]

You don't need to houserule this.

If you have a Wizard 3 //Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1, what is your base will save? Well, since you've had the best will save progression for three straight levels, it's identical to the wizard's will save of +3. Some people put +6 on their character sheets. I don't see that reflected in the rules at all.

It's slightly more complicated with regards to fort save, which went good/bad/good. My preference is to call it 2 levels of good save and 1 level of bad, for a total fort save of +3.

Reflex save has been bad for 3 levels, netting +1.

Correct. According to the Gestalt rules, you do not get the 2 point bump multiple times. You only track good or bad saves.

[Shadroth]

The aim of "god of magic" started me wondering about a few things. Like, how high a level of casting is possible in three separate casting tracks?

Taking levels in Ultimate Magus, on the levels with only one spellcasting class advanced (1st/4th, etc), can you then take a level of one of the base classes used to qualify for Ultimate Magus at the same level?

e.g.
Wizard 5 // Beguiler 5
Ultimate Magus 1 (Wizard) // Beguiler 6

If Ultimate Magus can be used in this way, combining Wizard, Beguiler, Ultimate Magus, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge, by my calculations at least, you can finish with Wizard 20, Ur-Priest 10, Beguiler 18 effective spellcasting levels in total.


Wizard 5 // Beguiler 5
Ultimate Magus 1 (Wizard) // Beguiler 1
Ultimate Magus 2 (Both) // <strong FORT class> 2
Wizard 2 // Ur-Priest 2
Mystic Theurge 8 (Wizard, Ur-Priest) // Beguiler 8
Wizard 1 // Ultimate Magus 1 (Beguiler)
Ultimate Magus 1 (Both) // <whatever> 1

So, I guess two questions. Does this work? And is it actually useful in any way?

[7th son of sons]

The aim of "god of magic" started me wondering about a few things. Like, how high a level of casting is possible in three separate casting tracks?

Taking levels in Ultimate Magus, on the levels with only one spellcasting class advanced (1st/4th, etc), can you then take a level of one of the base classes used to qualify for Ultimate Magus at the same level?

e.g.
Wizard 5 // Beguiler 5
Ultimate Magus 1 (Wizard) // Beguiler 6

If Ultimate Magus can be used in this way, combining Wizard, Beguiler, Ultimate Magus, Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge, by my calculations at least, you can finish with Wizard 20, Ur-Priest 10, Beguiler 18 effective spellcasting levels in total.


Wizard 5 // Beguiler 5
Ultimate Magus 1 (Wizard) // Beguiler 1
Ultimate Magus 2 (Both) // <strong FORT class> 2
Wizard 2 // Ur-Priest 2
Mystic Theurge 8 (Wizard, Ur-Priest) // Beguiler 8
Wizard 1 // Ultimate Magus 1 (Beguiler)
Ultimate Magus 1 (Both) // <whatever> 1

So, I guess two questions. Does this work? And is it actually useful in any way?

By my DM's rulings, yes, this would be a usable build. As far as helpful, it is, because if My above route of play is veto'd, than this is quite possibly my back-up. Thank you.

[Shadroth]

2.) If I took the master Spellthief feat at the 18th level (and I planned to), would that advance all my Arcane spellcasting classes by 10 lvls?

Master Spellthief would stack with all your different arcane caster classes for the purpose of Caster Level, and nothing else. It doesn't grant spells per day or spells known.

[Icewraith]

You don't need to houserule this.



If you have a Wizard 3 //Fighter 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1, what is your base will save? Well, since you've had the best will save progression for three straight levels, it's identical to the wizard's will save of +3. Some people put +6 on their character sheets. I don't see that reflected in the rules at all.

It's slightly more complicated with regards to fort save, which went good/bad/good. My preference is to call it 2 levels of good save and 1 level of bad, for a total fort save of +3.

Reflex save has been bad for 3 levels, netting +1.

Well the way I read it, it says "choose the better progression from the two classes" which in the case of sequential dips would still always have the starting good save- since you use the class's table to get your numbers. Also, it's a necessary houserule because it stops save bumping from multiple prestige classes as well. I've always thought a wizard 20 and a wizard 6/prestige something with a good will 8/something else with good will 5/something else else with will 2 should have the same will save.

[bekeleven]

Well the way I read it, it says "choose the better progression from the two classes" which in the case of sequential dips would still always have the starting good saveBut +2 at level 1 isn't a "progression", it's a level.

This is a black hole of badly defined terms, but I read it as that you had the good progression, you still have the good progression, keep progressing the good progression.

[Zweisteine]

Here are the official Gestalt rule: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes.

If you want to be a "god of magic," you might want to look around at some of the optimization guides around the various D&D forums.

It is almost certainly a very, very bad idea to take low numbers of levels in many classes, especially spellcasting classes. Your build loses 9 Wizard caster levels, which is the top three spell levels, which is something you want to avoid. Generally, people try to avoid losing ninth level spells unless the build has a very specific purpose.

A good idea might be, as suggested by at least one other, Wizard//Archivist, with some prestige classes thrown in.


If you are starting at a lower level, though, you might not want to think quite so far ahead just yet...



On save progression: Ask your DM if he/she uses fractional attack/save bonuses.

[Tve]

Correct. According to the Gestalt rules, you do not get the 2 point bump multiple times. You only track good or bad saves.

Isn't that an interpretation?
I can't see anything, anywhere in the Gestalt rules saying anything about how saves are calculated when multi-classing, except they use the word "progression" once in the description, then use an example that doesn't really clarify anything..

Can you quote me where it actually specifically says you don't accumulate saves from multi-classing like you normally would?
Otherwise, wouldn't it be more prudent to say, that is how you interpret the rules? :smallsmile:

[Vedhin]

Isn't that an interpretation?
I can't see anything, anywhere in the Gestalt rules saying anything about how saves are calculated when multi-classing, except they use the word "progression" once in the description, then use an example that doesn't really clarify anything..

Can you quote me where it actually specifically says you don't accumulate saves from multi-classing like you normally would?
Otherwise, wouldn't it be more prudent to say, that is how you interpret the rules? :smallsmile:

As mentioned, "progression" is used to refer to the good/bad save progression, as elsewhere in D&D:


But +2 at level 1 isn't a "progression", it's a level.

This is a black hole of badly defined terms, but I read it as that you had the good progression, you still have the good progression, keep progressing the good progression.