[PF] Advanced Class Guide Playtest!

[Crustypeanut]

Is up! (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/v5748eaic9rdw?Paizo-Publishing-Opens-Worldwide-Playtest-For)

...though the site seems to have imploded thanks to the strain of people downloading it. Its baaaaaaaaack!

I haven't finished looking at the classes yet (I got it before the site went kaput), but so far... the Brawler looks magnificent. A monk who can wear armor, gains full BAB, and can switch feats as a move action a certain number of times per day and gains improving unarmed strike damage.

Granted, with the armor, he can normally only wear light armor - but by gaining proficiency in, and wearing, medium-heavy armor, he seems to only lose a small benefit to his AC/CMD gained at 4th level and increasing with time. Basically, though, its not a huge loss for the ability to wear armor.

And at 2 level, Brawlers gain a Flurry of Blows-like ability called Brawler's Flurry - counts as the Brawler having Two-Weapon Fighting for whatever attacks he's using, provided he's using unarmed strikes or monk weapons. It improves at higher levels.

[Raven777]

On the other hand, the Paizo website is down :smallbiggrin:

[Arutema]

How's the swashbuckler look? Does it get Dex to damage at a reasonably low level?

[Crustypeanut]

How's the swashbuckler look? Does it get Dex to damage at a reasonably low level?

I'll go check it out! Was drooling over the Brawler.

*Edit*:
-------

Swashbuckler: d10 HD, 4+int skill points, full BAB, penache resource pool (Identical to Grit, basically, but only gained by attacks from light or one handed melee weapons - uses CHA), and.. Deeds! Lets see..

[subject42]

On the other hand, the Paizo website is down :smallbiggrin:

I don't think the term "down" is quite emphatic enough to describe their current situation. At this point the only valid assumption is that the datacenter hosting the site is a smoking crater crawling with ravenous gamers.

[Psyren]

Swappable feats? You have my money attention.

[Crustypeanut]

Ah, here we go!

...As far as I can tell, the swashbuckler doesn't gain dex to damage at all, but instead, at 3rd level, as long as she has one Penache, she gains her level to damage in the form of precision damage as long as she's using a light or one handed piercing melee weapon.

However, at 5th level, the Swashbuckler gains weapon training, and automatically is considered to have the Improved Critical feat with any light or one handed piercing weapon she is wielding.

At 2nd level, Swashbucklers are considered to have weapon finesse with those weapons, as well. And they gain bonus feats like a fighter.

One of their 1st level deeds includes both Parry (make an AoO to parry) and riposte (Make an AoO to attack the creature whom you just parried)

[Psyren]

Hopefully they have some form of bonus damage mechanic. The agile property won't cut it, and since from what I hear they seem to like piercing weapons, a Scimitar probably won't either.

[Crustypeanut]

..Skalds get an ability called "Raging Song"...

It.. makes all of his allies go into a lesser barbarian rage (+2 strength/con, +1 will, -1 AC) during the song. Hehehe.. that is neat.

[Crustypeanut]

Hopefully they have some form of bonus damage mechanic. The agile property won't cut it, and since from what I hear they seem to like piercing weapons, a Scimitar probably won't either.

Well, as long as they have one Penache, at 3rd level, they can intimidate a foe as a swift action when they hit them.

I'm going to make a Swashbuckler here soon to test it out - see if I can't get 'em some damage potential. Honestly though, they seem more defensive than offensive.. we'll see how it works out though.

[sidd11]

My download got interrupted in the middle and now the sites down ... how is the slayer and bloodrager looking?

[ExarKun]

Couldn't someone just post a sneak peek of all the classes? it's OGL after all :|

[Yora]

I am interested about the Shaman and the Hunter. They might be interesting replacements for the rangers and psionic powers oracles in my homebrew setting. (Of course, as psionic powers shamans.)

[Psyren]

I'm most interested in that Warpriest or whatever it's called, with the Hunter and Shaman coming second.

EDIT: And that ragecaster guy, forgot about him.

[Crustypeanut]

I'll see if I can't get some stuff up for you guys! One class at a time, in order that they're shown in the book.

Arcanist is first, as a result!

[Crustypeanut]

Arcanist
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Alternate Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard
Skill Ranks: 2+Int
BAB: As Wizard/Sorcerer
Strong Saves: Will

Spells: Like a Wizard, the Arcanist prepares spells daily in the morning; Unlike a wizard, the spells are not expended when cast, and may be cast as long as the Arcanist has spells per day remaining. Full CL, up to 9th level spells drawn from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Uses a Spellbook. Has roughly the same spell progression as a Sorcerer (I.E, 9th level spells at level 18)

Blood Focus: At 1st level, the arcanist learns to harness the power of the magic in her blood to push the boundaries of her magic. The arcanist must select one school of magic and one sorcerer bloodline. Once selected, these choices cannot be changed. Whenever the arcanist casts a spell of her chosen school, using one of her arcanist spell slots, she can expend one use of her blood focus as a free action to bolster the spell. This adds 1 to the spell’s caster level and DC. The arcanist cannot expend more than one use of blood focus on a given casting of a spell.

In addition, as a standard action an arcanist can expend one use of blood focus to use a bloodline power from her bloodline. She can use any one bloodline power that she would have access to, treating her arcanist levels as sorcerer levels. (The only except is that she cannot use the bloodline power granted at 20th level.) If the bloodline power is limited in its uses per day, she cannot use blood focus to use that bloodline power more times per day than she could if she were a sorcerer of the same level. If the bloodline power grants a permanent bonus (such as fire resistance or the ability to fly), the arcanist gains this ability for a number of rounds equal to her arcanist level. The arcanist substitutes her Intelligence modifier for her Charisma modifier when determining any variables in these bloodline powers.

The arcanist can use blood focus a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 her arcanist level. If she expends all of her daily uses of this ability, she is fatigued. She cannot remove the fatigued condition until she has at least one use of this ability available.

Scribe Scroll: At 3rd level, the arcanist gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Bonus Feats: At 8th, 13th, and 18th level, an arcanist gains a bonus feat in addition to the bonus feats gained from normal advancement. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, Eschew Materials, or Spell Mastery (the arcanist counts as a wizard for the purposes of this feat). The arcanist must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

School Supremacy: At 20th level, the arcanist learns to fully master the powers of one school of magic. Whenever she uses her blood focus to cast a spell of her selected school, she may also modify the spell with Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell. This doesn’t increase the casting time or the level of the spell slot consumed. In addition, the spell’s DC increases by 1. She doesn’t need to possess the desired feat to use it with this ability.

===========================================
Bloodrager
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d10
Alternate Classes: Sorcerer and Barbarian
Skill Ranks: 4+Int
BAB: Full BAB
Strong Saves: Fort

Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: Bloodragers are proficient with all simple weapons and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). A bloodrager can cast bloodrager spells while wearing light armor or medium armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like other arcanespellcasters, a bloodrager wearing heavy armor or wielding a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has somatic components. A multiclass bloodrager still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Bloodline: Each bloodrager has a source of magic somewhere in his heritage that empowers his bloodrages, bonus feats, and bonus spells. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family’s past. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests itself in a number of ways as the bloodrager gains level. A bloodrager must pick one bloodline upon taking his first level of bloodrager. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

At 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter, a bloodrager receives one bonus feat chosen from a list specific to each bloodline. The bloodrager must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats.

At 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th levels, a bloodrager learns an additional spell, derived from his bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 1–4. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

Bloodrage (Su): Each bloodrager has a source of internal power somewhere in his heritage that grants him the ability to bloodrage. Starting at 1st level, a bloodrager can bloodrage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, he can bloodrage for 2 additional rounds per day. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those
gained from bloodrage and spells like bear’s endurance, don’t increase the total number of rounds that a bloodrager can bloodrage per day. The total number of rounds of bloodrage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours need not be consecutive.

A bloodrager can enter a bloodrage as a free action. While in a bloodrage, a bloodrager gains a +4 morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saving throws. In addition, he takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the bloodrager 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the bloodrage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in bloodrage, a bloodrager cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

A bloodrager can end his bloodrage as a free action. When the bloodrage ends, he’s fatigued for a number of rounds equal to twice the number of rounds spent in the bloodrage. A bloodrager cannot enter a new bloodrage while fatigued or exhausted, but otherwise can enter bloodrage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a bloodrager falls unconscious, his bloodrage immediately ends, placing him in peril of death.

In addition, the bloodrage gains additional bloodrage powers at 1st level, 4th level, and every four levels thereafter. The bloodrage powers a bloodrager gains are based on his bloodline.

Bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s rage class ability for the purpose of qualifying for feat prerequisites, magic item abilities, and spell effects.

Fast Movement (Ex): A bloodrager’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by 10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and while not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the bloodrager’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the bloodrager’s land speed.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a bloodrager gains the ability to react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught f latfooted, even if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his
Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A bloodrager with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against him. If a bloodrager already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Blood Casting (Su): At 4th level, the bloodrager gains the ability to cast spells while using bloodrage. While in a bloodrage, he can only cast bloodrager spells (see below); spells from other classes cannot be cast during this time.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a bloodrager gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list (see page 13 of Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic). To learn or cast a spell, a bloodrager must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. He can cast spells he knows without preparing it ahead of time. The saving throw DC against a bloodrager’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bloodrager’s Charisma modifier.

A bloodrager’s highest level of spells is 4th. Magus spells of 5th level and above are not on the bloodrager class spell list, and a bloodrager cannot use spell completion or spell trigger magic items (without making a successful Use Magic Device check) of magus spells of 5th level or higher.

Like other spellcasters, a bloodrager can cast only a certain number of spells of each level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1–3. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 17, Table 1–3). The bloodrager does not need to prepare these spells in advance; he can cast them at any point during a bloodrage (as per his blood casting ability), assuming he hasn’t yet used up his spells per day for that level.

The bloodrager’s selection of spells is limited. At 4th level, a bloodrager knows two 1st-level spells of the bloodrager’s choice at 4th level. A bloodrager gains more spells as he increases in level, as indicated on Table 1–4. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bloodrager knows is not affected by his Charisma score, but it’s affected by the bonus bloodline spells he gains).

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a bloodrager can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue (or other class with the sneak attack ability) the ability to sneak attack the bloodrager by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels (or levels in the class granting sneak attack) than the target has bloodrager levels.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a bloodragergains damage reduction. Subtract 1 from the damagethe bloodrager takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 10th level, and every three bloodrager levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.

Greater Bloodrage (Ex): At 11th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +3. For the purposes of qualifying for feat prerequisites, magic item abilities, and spell effects, greater bloodrage counts as the barbarian’s greater rage ability.

Indomitable Will (Ex): While in rage, a bloodrager of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his bloodrage.

Tireless Rage (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a bloodrager no longer becomes fatigued at the end of his bloodrage.

Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a bloodrager enters rage, the morale bonus to his Strength and Constitution increases to +8, and the morale bonus on his Will saves increases to +4.

Bloodlines: Here is an example of one of the bloodlines. There are many more!


Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Disruptive*, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Spellbreaker*

* Your bloodrager levels count as fighter levels for the purposes of qualifying for these feats. This stacks with any levels in fighter you have.

Bonus Spells: magic missile (7th), invisibility (10th), lightning bolt (13th), dimension door (16th).

Bloodrage Powers: When you bloodrage, arcane power transforms you into an arcane juggernaut who can cut down even the most careful caster.

Disruptive Bloodrage (Su): At 1st level, the DC to cast spells defensively increases by 2 for enemies within your threatened area. This increase stacks with those granted by the Disruptive feat.

Arcane Bloodrage (Sp): At 4th level, when you enter a bloodrage, you can choose one of the following spells and apply its effects on you: blur, protection from arrows, resist energy (choose one energy type), or spider climb. The effects of the spell last for as long as the bloodrage lasts, regardless of its normal duration. This.. I like this.

Greater Arcane Bloodrage (Ex): At 8th level, when you enter a bloodrage, you can choose to apply the effects of either displacement or haste to yourself. This is in addition to arcane bloodrage, and otherwise works as that ability. I like this too.

Caster’s Scourge (Su): At 12th level, you gain a pool of extra attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus (minimum 1). You can only use this pool of attacks of opportunity to make attacks against spellcasters who cast
or attempted to cast defensively in your threatened area. Either the Spellbreaker feat, the caster’s bane bloodrage power (see below), or some similar effect is still required to make attacks of opportunity against spellcasters who are casting defensively.

True Arcane Bloodrage (Ex): At 16th level, when you enter a bloodrage, you can choose one of the following spells and apply its effects on you: beast shape IV (choose a creature your size or larger only), form of the dragon I, or transformation. This is in addition to arcane bloodrage and greater arcane bloodrage, and otherwise works as those abilities. o_O

Caster’s Bane (Ex): At 20th level, spellcasters with a caster level lower than your bloodrager level always provoke attacks of opportunity within your threatened area, even when they’re casting defensively.

[Lord_Gareth]

Arcanist
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d6
Alternate Classes: Sorcerer and Wizard
Skill Ranks: 2+Int
BAB: As Wizard/Sorcerer
Strong Saves: Will

Spells: Like a Wizard, the Arcanist prepares spells daily in the morning; Unlike a wizard, the spells are not expended when cast, and may be cast as long as the Arcanist has spells per day remaining. Full CL, up to 9th level spells drawn from the Sorcerer/Wizard list. Uses a Spellbook. Has roughly the same spell progression as a Sorcerer (I.E, 9th level spells at level 18)

Blood Focus: At 1st level, the arcanist learns to harness the power of the magic in her blood to push the boundaries of her magic. The arcanist must select one school of magic and one sorcerer bloodline. Once selected, these choices cannot be changed. Whenever the arcanist casts a spell of her chosen school, using one of her arcanist spell slots, she can expend one use of her blood focus as a free action to bolster the spell. This adds 1 to the spell’s caster level and DC. The arcanist cannot expend more than one use of blood focus on a given casting of a spell.

In addition, as a standard action an arcanist can expend one use of blood focus to use a bloodline power from her bloodline. She can use any one bloodline power that she would have access to, treating her arcanist levels as sorcerer levels. (The only except is that she cannot use the bloodline power granted at 20th level.) If the bloodline power is limited in its uses per day, she cannot use blood focus to use that bloodline power more times per day than she could if she were a sorcerer of the same level. If the bloodline power grants a permanent bonus (such as fire resistance or the ability to fly), the arcanist gains this ability for a number of rounds equal to her arcanist level. The arcanist substitutes her Intelligence modifier for her Charisma modifier when determining any variables in these bloodline powers.

The arcanist can use blood focus a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 her arcanist level. If she expends all of her daily uses of this ability, she is fatigued. She cannot remove the fatigued condition until she has at least one use of this ability available.

Scribe Scroll: At 3rd level, the arcanist gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Bonus Feats: At 8th, 13th, and 18th level, an arcanist gains a bonus feat in addition to the bonus feats gained from normal advancement. At each such opportunity, she can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, Eschew Materials, or Spell Mastery (the arcanist counts as a wizard for the purposes of this feat). The arcanist must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

School Supremacy: At 20th level, the arcanist learns to fully master the powers of one school of magic. Whenever she uses her blood focus to cast a spell of her selected school, she may also modify the spell with Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell. This doesn’t increase the casting time or the level of the spell slot consumed. In addition, the spell’s DC increases by 1. She doesn’t need to possess the desired feat to use it with this ability.

Whoever designed this is a bad person and they need to feel bad.

[Destrina]

Any way you could post a dropbox link or email it to me so I can put it on dropbox?

[Crustypeanut]

Whoever designed this is a bad person and they need to feel bad.

This is just a playtest, mind you. Feel free to give them some input!

[Crustypeanut]

Any way you could post a dropbox link or email it to me so I can put it on dropbox?

Has me name on it and such - the site will be up soon hopefully!

[Lord_Gareth]

This is just a playtest, mind you. Feel free to give them some input!

That didn't go so well the last time I told them that their spellcasters were too powerful and that they needed to stop nerfing melee.

In point of fact, I'm pretty sure there was a large amount of mass banning and condescending insults from the design team, almost like they're unable to handle criticism professionally...

Oh wait.

They can't.

[ExarKun]

Thank you, I really liked the arcanist! :)

[Crustypeanut]

Also guys, Paizo is back up!

Nevermind. >.<

[Destrina]

Jason and SKR can be very immature if anyone isn't completely deferential in their criticism of any aspect of their products and rulings. Like the slingstaff/warslinger ruling a few months back.

[zimmerwald1915]

That didn't go so well the last time I told them that their spellcasters were too powerful and that they needed to stop nerfing melee.
There's at least some difference. Drop the comparisons to mundanes and compare the Arcanist strictly with other spellcasters. It manages to get all the strengths of both spontaneous and prepared casting but the drawbacks of neither, except for delayed spell progression1. The class is a "hybrid" only in where the peripheral school and bloodline abilities are concerned. In those respects, it sits between the Sorcerer and Wizard without much problem. But the class' core ability is spellcasting, and it's just strictly better than literally every spellcaster in Pathfinder.

1Can we get the spells per day table, by the way, Crusty? I'm assuming the Arcanist gets two new spells in their spellbook per level, like the Wizard, and can add new spells like a Wizard as well.

[Crustypeanut]

That didn't go so well the last time I told them that their spellcasters were too powerful and that they needed to stop nerfing melee.

In point of fact, I'm pretty sure there was a large amount of mass banning and condescending insults from the design team, almost like they're unable to handle criticism professionally...

Oh wait.

They can't.

Check out the Spellrager's Arcane Bloodline stuffs.

He can gain some stupidly awesome stuff while spellraging.

[Crustypeanut]

There's at least some difference. Drop the comparisons to mundanes and compare the Arcanist strictly with other spellcasters. It manages to get all the strengths of both spontaneous and prepared casting but the drawbacks of neither, except for delayed spell progression1. The class is a "hybrid" only in where the peripheral school and bloodline abilities are concerned. In those respects, it sits between the Sorcerer and Wizard without much problem. But the class' core ability is spellcasting, and it's just strictly better than literally every spellcaster in Pathfinder.

1Can we get the spells per day table, by the way, Crusty? I'm assuming the Arcanist gets two new spells in their spellbook per level, like the Wizard, and can add new spells like a Wizard as well.

Aye, two spells per level in their spellbooks.

Uuh let me take a screenshot of the table :P

[Lord_Gareth]

Check out the Spellrager's Arcane Bloodline stuffs.

He can gain some stupidly awesome stuff while spellraging.

Aye, he can, which...puts him in this weird position of making Barbarian obsolete. Which, mind you, Magus exists, so Barb was already kinda dip fodder, but...

Almost all of these classes are, on the conceptual level, really ill-thought. I'd venture as far as saying 'stupid'. I mean, Slayer? How much money do you wanna bet that they get some kinda Sneak Attack that only works on Favored Enemies?

Arcanist manages to do the impossible by entirely replacing Wizard. Warpriest? I mean, Clerics are Fighters ALREADY, what do they even get? Brawler?

There is no end to my hate right now.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Interesting... The Bloodrager seems closer to an arcane paladin or ranger / barbarian hybrid. I was expecting a 1-6th caster, but I guess that would be too close to the Magus.

I was expecting an arcane spirit shaman for the arcanist, and it doesn't look like I was too far off. Further research required.

[zimmerwald1915]

Arcanist manages to do the impossible by entirely replacing Wizard.
I agree with the point, but not with the adverb. The Wizard's [and Witch's] spell progression is faster than the Arcanist's. But that delayed progression isn't enough to not obsolete the Witch and Wizard. I'd like to see the Arcanist get fewer spells per day than the Witch or Wizard.

[Crustypeanut]

Aye, he can, which...puts him in this weird position of making Barbarian obsolete. Which, mind you, Magus exists, so Barb was already kinda dip fodder, but...

Almost all of these classes are, on the conceptual level, really ill-thought. I'd venture as far as saying 'stupid'. I mean, Slayer? How much money do you wanna bet that they get some kinda Sneak Attack that only works on Favored Enemies?

Arcanist manages to do the impossible by entirely replacing Wizard. Warpriest? I mean, Clerics are Fighters ALREADY, what do they even get? Brawler?

There is no end to my hate right now.

Slayer gets a sneak attack that works on any enemy - but has a lower progression than Rogues. They have no favored enemy, instead having more of a.. focused enemy. By using a move action, they can target a specific enemy, gaining various bonuses against that enemy (+1 to attack/damage at low levels, increasing every 5 levels - also skill bonuses).

Later they can have up more than one focused enemy at a time. Slayers also gain talents similar to the rogue. One allows them to sneak attack at range even with their enemy having concealment. They look like a very assassin-oriented class, without having to specialize in specific types of enemies.

Brawler is a Full BAB, Full Unarmed Strike Progression Monk who can wear fullplate without losing all of his abilities. He only loses some minor ones by wearing heavier than light, and doesn't start with medium/heavy proficiency.

He can also effectively switch combat feats on the fly a certain number of times per day.

[Lord_Gareth]

I agree with the point, but not with the adverb. The Wizard's [and Witch's] spell progression is faster than the Arcanist's.

This is not as big a deal as you might think. The gap between any given spell level and the one immediately above it is very small; 8th level spells vs. 9th level spells is a damn hard fight.

[Lord_Gareth]

Brawler is a Full BAB, Full Unarmed Strike Progression Monk who can wear fullplate without losing all of his abilities. He only loses some minor ones by wearing heavier than light, and doesn't start with medium/heavy proficiency.

He can also effectively switch combat feats on the fly a certain number of times per day.

This does not...

Okay, I lie. It helps, just not enough. Not nearly enough, especially since it addresses only the bookeeping problems (How do I get armor enhancements? How can I handle low-level armor class?) and not the Real Actual Problems.

[zimmerwald1915]

This is not as big a deal as you might think. The gap between any given spell level and the one immediately above it is very small; 8th level spells vs. 9th level spells is a damn hard fight.
My entire point is that it's not a big enough deal, y'know. Hence "I agree with the point [that the Arcanist obsoletes the Wizard] but not the adverb literally everything the Wizard can do]".

Again, I'd like to see the Arcanist get fewer spells per day than the Wizard along with the delayed progression. Maybe even get capped at level 6 spells.

[Lord_Gareth]

My entire point is that it's not a big enough deal, y'know. Hence "I agree with the point [that the Arcanist obsoletes the Wizard] but not the adverb literally everything the Wizard can do]".

Again, I'd like to see the Arcanist get fewer spells per day than the Wizard along with the delayed progression.

Ah, my bad for misunderstanding.

[Crustypeanut]

This does not...

Okay, I lie. It helps, just not enough. Not nearly enough, especially since it addresses only the bookeeping problems (How do I get armor enhancements? How can I handle low-level armor class?) and not the Real Actual Problems.

Honestly, his AC will be low at low levels unless he picks up Medium Armor Proficiency at 1st level - which, if he does, he can have better AC as a result. But.. since he can switch feats on the fly (Though only a number of times per day equal to 1/2 his level - so that is limiting, and they only last one minute), while also gaining bonus feats every few levels (Slower than a fighter), he can afford to spend one or two feats on armor proficiency - OR take a single level in a class with them.

[Crustypeanut]

http://imageshack.us/a/img20/5696/n2kk.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/9274/vyhg.png

[Powerdork]

This is very exciting indeed. Can't wait to read more.

[Crustypeanut]

Even though I'm posting classes willy nilly in the thread, I'll get a link up for each one on the original post..

Brawler soon!

[Ilorin Lorati]

http://imageshack.us/a/img20/5696/n2kk.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/9274/vyhg.png


Wow. That is... a lot more prepared than I was hoping for.

The concerns may be right, it does look like they may have replaced Wizard.

[Psyren]

That didn't go so well the last time I told them that their spellcasters were too powerful and that they needed to stop nerfing melee.

In point of fact, I'm pretty sure there was a large amount of mass banning and condescending insults from the design team, almost like they're unable to handle criticism professionally...

Oh wait.

They can't.

For what it's worth, I share your concerns over the Arcanist. The ongoing grudge over the playtest of yore, not so much, but if you post your thoughts here then others can deliver them to the forums in your stead, and you won't have to pop a blood vessel over SKR's reply.

The rest of the classes, I like so far, though I wish the Bloodrager had a bit more synergy between its melee and spellcasting halves. Right now it's just "magi-barb" and doesn't seem to bring any new mechanic to the table beyond that.

[Ilorin Lorati]

The rest of the classes, I like so far, though I wish the Bloodrager had a bit more synergy between its melee and spellcasting halves. Right now it's just "magi-barb" and doesn't seem to bring any new mechanic to the table beyond that.

To be fair, the Bloodrager bloodlines seem to be mostly magical in a way that increases their "in your face" ability.

[Crustypeanut]

Brawler
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d10
Alternate Classes: Fighter and Monk
Skill Ranks: 4+Int
BAB: As Fighter
Strong Saves: Fort/Ref

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with all simple weapons plus the dagger, handaxe, kama, nunchaku, sai, short sword, shuriken, and siangham. She is proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn’t possess for 1 minute. The combat feat must be one that affects or improves her defenses (such as Dodge or Toughness), melee attacks (such as Blind-Fight or Power Attack), or performing or resisting combat maneuvers (such as Agile Maneuvers or Improved Trip). The brawler must otherwise meet all the feat’s prerequisites. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half her brawler level (minimum 1).

If this ability is triggered before the duration expires, the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a new one in its place.

If a combat feat has a daily use limitation (such as Stunning Fist), any uses of that combat feat while using this ability count toward that feat’s daily limit.

At 6th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of two combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a move action or two feats as a standard action. She may use one of these feats to meet a prerequisite of the second feat. Each feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.

At 10th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of three combat feats at the same time. She may select one feat as a swift action, two feats as a move action, or three feats as a standard action. She may use one of the feats to meet a prerequisite of the second and third feats, and use the second feat to meet a prerequisite of the third feat. Each feat selected counts toward her daily uses of this ability.

At 12th level, a brawler can use this ability to gain the benefit of one feat as an immediate action.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A brawler’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a brawler may make unarmed strikes with her hands full. A brawler applies her full Strength bonus (not half ) on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a brawler’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A brawler’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A brawler also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than others, as shown above on Table 1–5. The unarmed damage values listed on Table 1–5 is for Medium brawlers. A Small brawler deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large brawler deals more damage; see the following table.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level and every two levels thereafter, a brawler gains a bonus combat feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be ones that affect or improve her defenses or melee attacks. The brawler must meet the prerequisites of the
selected bonus feat. Says every 2 levels, but the table shows every three levels.

Upon reaching 5th level and every three levels thereafter, a brawler can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat she has already learned. In effect, the brawler loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A brawler can only change one feat at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time she gains a new bonus feat for the level.

Brawler’s Flurry (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a brawler can make a brawler’s f lurry as a full-attack action. When doing so, a brawler is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when attacking with unarmed strikes or weapons with the “monk” special feature. She does not need to use two different weapons to use this ability.

A brawler applies her full Strength bonus to her damage rolls for all successful attacks made with brawler’s flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A brawler may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of brawler’s flurry. A brawler with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of brawler’s flurry, nor can she make natural attacks in addition to her brawler’s f lurry attacks.

At 8th level, the brawler is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler’s flurry. At 15th level, the brawler is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when using brawler’s flurry.

Maneuver Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a brawler can select one combat maneuver to receive additional training. She gains a +1 bonus to her CMB whenattempting this combat maneuver and a +1 bonus to her CMD when defending against this maneuver.

At 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level, a brawler becomes further trained in another combat maneuver, gaining the above +1 bonus to CMB and CMD. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous maneuver training increase by 1 each. For example, when a brawler reaches 7th level, she receives a +1 bonus on one type of combat maneuvers, +1 to her CMD against that combat maneuver, and the bonuses for the maneuver selected at 3rd level increase to +2.

AC Bonus (Ex): Starting at 4th level, when a brawler wears light or no armor, she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and CMD. This bonus increases by 1 at 9th, 13th, and 18th levels.

These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks. She loses these bonuses while immobilized or helpless, wearing medium or heavy armor, carrying a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. Yeah I'll drop this for full plate, thank you very much!

Brawler Strike (Su): Starting at 5th level, a brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 9th level, her unarmed attacks are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 12th level, she chooses one alignment component (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful), and her unarmed strikes count as this alignment for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. (This alignment component cannot be the opposite of the brawler’s actual alignment, such as a good brawler choosing evil strikes.) At 17th level, her unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.

Knockout (Su): Starting at 16th level, a brawler can unleash a devastating attack that can instantly knock a target unconscious. She must announce this intent before making her attack roll. If the brawler strikes successfully and the target takes damage from the blow, the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the brawler’s level + the higher of the brawler’s Strength or Dexterity modifier) or fall unconscious for 1d6 rounds. Using this ability more than once on a given day reduces the saving throw DC by 5 for each time previously used; once the DC is less than 1, the ability can no longer be used that day. Creatures immune to critical hits or nonlethal damage are immune to this ability. The DC for this ability resets once per day after the brawler is fully rested.

Awesome Blow (Ex): At 20th level, the brawler may as a standard action perform a combat maneuver against a corporeal creature of her size or smaller. If the combat maneuver succeeds, the opponent takes damage as if the brawler had hit it with a wielded weapon or unarmed strike, is knocked flying 10 feet in a direction of the brawler’s choice, and falls prone. The brawler can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the brawler than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent is knocked prone in the space adjacent to the obstacle. ..I'm not sure this is worth a capstone, but who really gets to level 20 anyways?

[CoriMarie21]

How many pages is it, so I know how much it will cost to print it at Office Max?

[subject42]

Martial Maneuvers (Ex): At 1st level, a brawler can spend a move action to gain the benefit of a combat feat she doesn’t possess for 1 minute. The combat feat must be one that affects or improves her defenses (such as Dodge or Toughness)


Using Martial Maneuvers to gain toughness seems like a great way to kill yourself when the effect expires.

[Crustypeanut]

How many pages is it, so I know how much it will cost to print it at Office Max?

51 pages, including the title page.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Using Martial Maneuvers to gain toughness seems like a great way to kill yourself when the effect expires.


Better than being dead before it expired.

[Crustypeanut]

Site is tentatively back up, though a bit slow!

[zimmerwald1915]

http://imageshack.us/a/img20/5696/n2kk.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/9274/vyhg.png

Hmm, at level 20, 5+INT[?] spells per level per day, between 5 and 3 different spells prepared. Doesn't seem to be any bonus spells from specialization. On balance, a specialist Wizard 20 can prepare 5 or more different spells per level, so he beats the Arcanist on [potential] variety of available spells while the two classes are about on par in terms of how many spells they can cast per level per day.

This is a cursory analysis and I don't have time to go deeper. Would anyone mind developing the analysis?

[CoriMarie21]

51 pages, including the title page.

Thanks. It's in my DLs now, just need to get to the DL page. Come on servers! You can do it!

[Lord_Gareth]

For what it's worth, I share your concerns over the Arcanist. The ongoing grudge over the playtest of yore, not so much, but if you post your thoughts here then others can deliver them to the forums in your stead, and you won't have to pop a blood vessel over SKR's reply.

Well...can I trust you to deliver it? Disagreements and bad blood aside I do trust you to be literate and eloquent.

[Frosty]

Well...can I trust you to deliver it? Disagreements and bad blood aside I do trust you to be literate and eloquent.Are you banned from the Paizo forums or something?

[Lord_Gareth]

Are you banned from the Paizo forums or something?

The answer to that is complicated and full of both hate and fury.

[HylianKnight]

Wow, I don't quite realize how, 6 years after 3.5's demise, and over 3 after the release of APG, how exciting seeing a book of 10 new classes would be.

[Psyren]

Well...can I trust you to deliver it? Disagreements and bad blood aside I do trust you to be literate and eloquent.

Sure, since I was going to express my concerns over the Arcanist anyway. (But not while their website is self-destructing of course.)

EDIT: And thank you!

[Crustypeanut]

Hunter
Alignment: Any Neutral
Hit Dice: d8
Alternate Classes: Druid and Ranger
Skill Ranks: 4+Int
BAB: As Druid
Strong Saves: Fort/Ref

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Hunters are proficient with all simple weapons plus the longbow, scimitar, scythe, and shortbow. Hunters are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing heavy armor. Hunters are proficient with shields (except tower shields), but must use only those crafted from wood.

A hunter who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to cast hunter spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/8103/wfur.png

Spells: A hunter casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list (see Chapter 10 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook). Only druid spells of 6th level and lower are considered on the hunter spell list. Her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells. A hunter must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

A hunter’s highest level of spells is 6th. A hunter cannot use spell completion or spell trigger magic items (without making a successful Use Magic Device check) of druid spells of 7th level or higher.

To prepare or cast a spell, the hunter must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a hunter’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the hunter’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a hunter can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1–6. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom
score (Core Rulebook 17).

A hunter must spend 1 hour each day in a trance-like meditation on the mysteries of nature to regain her daily allotment of spells. A hunter may prepare and cast any spell on the hunter spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A hunter can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Orisons: Hunters can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table 1–6 under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.

Animal Focus (Su): At 1st level, a hunter can take on the aspect of an animal as a swift action, gaining a bonus or special ability based on the type of animal emulated (her animal companion also gains this benefit). Once activated, this ability lasts 1 minute.

At 1st level, a hunter can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the hunter can use this ability one additional time per day.

When the hunter uses this ability, she must select one type of animal to emulate. She can only emulate one animal at a time. As long as the ability is still active,she can change this aspect to another animal as a swift
action.
Bear: The hunter gaining a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 15th level.
Bull: The hunter gaining a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 15th level.
Falcon: The hunter gaining a +4 competence bonus on Perception checks. This bonus increases to +6 at 8th level and +8 at 15th level.
Frog: The hunter gaining a +4 competence bonus on Swim checks and Acrobatics checks to jump. These bonuses increase to +6 at 8th level and +8 at 15th level.
Monkey: The hunter gaining a +4 competence bonus on Climb checks. This bonus increases to +6 at 8th level and +8 at 15th level.
Owl: The hunter gaining a +4 competence bonus on Stealth checks. This bonus increases to +6 at 8th level and +8 at 15th level.
Snake: The hunter gains a +2 enhancement bonus on attack of opportunity attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity. These bonuses increase to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 15th level.
Stag: The hunter’s base land speed increases by 5 feet (this is an enhancement bonus). This increases to 10 feet at 8th level and 20 feet at 15th level.
Tiger: The hunter gaining a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 15th level.
Wolf: The hunter gains the scent ability with a range of 10 feet (20 feet upwind, 5 feet downwind). The range of this sense increases to 20 feet (40 feet upwind, 10 feet downwind) at 8th level and 30 feet (60 feet upwind, 15 feetddownwind) at 15th level.

Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a hunter forms a bond with an animal companion. A hunter may begin play with any of the animals listed in Animal Choices (Core Rulebook 53). This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the hunter on her adventures. The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level.

If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. If a hunter releases her companion from service or her animal companion perishes, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where
the sought companion typically lives.

Track (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter adds half her level to Survival skill checks made to follow tracks.

Wild Empathy (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter can improve the initial attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person (see Chapter 4 of the Core Rulebook). The hunter rolls 1d20 and adds her hunter level and her Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the hunter and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, inf luencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

The hunter can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.

Hunter Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, the hunter’s animal companion is treated as if it possessed the same teamwork feats as the hunter for the purpose of determining whether the hunter or the companion receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. The hunter’s and companion’s positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for them to receive the listed bonus.

Teamwork Feat: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the hunter gains a bonus teamwork feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. The hunter must meet the prerequisites of the selected bonus feat.

As a standard action, the hunter can choose to learn a new bonus teamwork feat in place of the most recent bonus teamwork feat she has already learned. In effect, the hunter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new
one. She can only change the most recent teamwork feat gained, and must meet the prerequisites for the newly selected feat. A hunter can change her most recent teamwork feat a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Whenever she gains a new teamwork feat, the previous teamwork feat becomes permanent.

Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a hunter may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage
or suffering any other impairment. Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion will still affect her.

Swift Tracker (Ex): At 8th level, a hunter can move at her normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. She takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.

Second Animal Focus (Su): At 8th level, whenever a hunter uses her animal focus ability, she selects two different animals instead of one. This only consumes one use of her animal focus ability. As a swift action, she can change one of these animals to another type.

Master Hunter (Ex): At 20th level, a hunter becomes a master hunter. She can always move at full speed while using Survival to follow tracks without penalty. Each day when the hunter prepares spells, she chooses one animal focus to be active for the entire day. This is in addition to using her animal focus class ability.

[Frosty]

The answer to that is complicated and full of both hate and fury.But you seem willing to put that aside and tireless work on the Path of War to continue to support Pathfinder :smallredface: (Unless I have you confused with someone else and you're not actually working on Path of War?)

[Lord_Gareth]

But you seem willing to put that aside and tireless work on the Path of War to continue to support Pathfinder :smallredface: (Unless I have you confused with someone else and you're not actually working on Path of War?)

I hate Paizo, not Dreamscarred Press. As I keep saying on the Paizo boards, the former's mistakes are not my problem when it comes to designing content.

Besides, DSP's got a great team and it's been SO enlightening to work with them.

[Rblock]

Slayer gets a sneak attack that works on any enemy - but has a lower progression than Rogues. They have no favored enemy, instead having more of a.. focused enemy. By using a move action, they can target a specific enemy, gaining various bonuses against that enemy (+1 to attack/damage at low levels, increasing every 5 levels - also skill bonuses).

Later they can have up more than one focused enemy at a time. Slayers also gain talents similar to the rogue. One allows them to sneak attack at range even with their enemy having concealment. They look like a very assassin-oriented class, without having to specialize in specific types of enemies.


So they essentially have the Guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/guide) ability instead of a favored enemy, interesting.

I'm pretty excited for this anyways, because there's finally a whole class that can get away with having just a brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling) chain shirt without having to make silly dips into Brawler Fighter or Master of Many Styles monks. Swapping feats seems nice.

Edit: Just saw the hunter posted above.... so it's a reskinned Inquisitor with an animal companion added instead of a domain? seems kind of boring... Animal Focus is basically Judgement, too. Also a little disappointed it didn't get it's own custom spell list, either. I guess it prepares like a Druid/Cleric, which is nice but the rest of the class features seems like they just copy and pasted parts of other classes together.

[Psyren]

Looks like Hunter traded Favored Enemy for more magic. I'm okay with that, an "archer magus" with bestial backup could be a great solo character.

[Crustypeanut]

Edit: Just saw the hunter posted above.... so it's a reskinned Inquisitor with an animal companion added instead of a domain? seems kind of boring...

Yeah hunters seem.. lackluster, personally.

The Investigator (Alchemist/Rogue) is looking interesting so far though! Looks to be an alchemist-like caster but more of a focus on skills than the pure alchemist.

I'm just.. not looking forward to copying all those unique investigator talents. *Wimpers*

[subject42]

Edit: Just saw the hunter posted above.... so it's a reskinned Inquisitor with an animal companion added instead of a domain?

Also, can't you do that with inquisitor by just... taking the animal domain?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What is the duration on the Animal focus? I don't see it.

[Psyren]

What is the duration on the Animal focus? I don't see it.

1 minute. Not great imo, especially when it's daily.

[Rblock]

Also, can't you do that with inquisitor by just... taking the animal domain?

Yep. In the Hunters defense, you won't have to burn a feat on Boone Companion, and you get it from level 1 upwards.

I guess this gives you your belt slot to mess around with, whereas the Inquisitor will always be using his on a belt of physical stats. The enhancement bonus only lasts a minute but it's not like combats get that long regularly so...



What is the duration on the Animal focus? I don't see it.

It last one minute, the Duration doesn't improve at all. Kinda boring.

[Dragonus45]

That didn't go so well the last time I told them that their spellcasters were too powerful and that they needed to stop nerfing melee.

In point of fact, I'm pretty sure there was a large amount of mass banning and condescending insults from the design team, almost like they're unable to handle criticism professionally...

Oh wait.

They can't.

This made my day, but yea the arcanist is never going to show up in any game i run. It was bad enough when my current DM made a prestige class that did the exact same thing, but he at least had the decency to deny them 9th level spells.

[Crustypeanut]

..I'm working on getting the Investigator up.. and I must admit..

It looks awesome for skill monkeys. Its like the rogue on crack, sacrificing offensive power for skill usage.

Plus Alchemist Extracts.

I.. think this class would be awesome for a Call of Cthulhu-based campaign. :P

[CoriMarie21]

So I've made it to the download page twice, just to have it time out while trying to download. I just want it downloaded so I can lay down and rest my sore back. :(

[Psyren]

This made my day, but yea the arcanist is never going to show up in any game i run. It was bad enough when my current DM made a prestige class that did the exact same thing, but he at least had the decency to deny them 9th level spells.

Chill, it's just a playtest. You might actually like the final version.

[HylianKnight]

Got mine. Here's a summary of everything included with the Slayer


Slayer
Alignment: Any HD:d8 Skill Ranks: 4+Int BAB: Full Good Saves: Fort & Ref Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, light & medium armor, shields (except Tower)
Favored Target: A slayer can study an opponent as a move actions. Gets +1 to Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks, and +1 to attack and damage rolls. Until opponent is dead or new target is studied. Bonus increase by 1 and can select additional opponent every 5 levels. As swift action at 10th level.
Track: At level 1
Slayer Talent: Every even level. Listed, but seem to be all Rogue talents, with Advanced ones at 10th.
Sneak Attack: every 3 levels (starting at 3).
Stalker: 7th level, favored target bonus applies to Disguise, Intimidate, and Stealth.
Swift Tracker: 11th level
Slayers Advance: 13th level, once per day, can move up to twice his base speed as a move action. Can Stealth with a -10 penalty. Twice per day at 17th level.
Quarry: 14th Level Improved Quarry at 19th level
Master Slayer: CAPSTONE: Standard action, make a single attack against favored target and choose one effect: kill, knock unconscious for 1d4 hours, paralyze for 2d6 rounds. Target takes damage normally, Fort Save (20 + Int Mod) to negate additional effect. Enemy can only be targeted ever 24 hours

Take away: Accomplish what most players want when they want to take the Assassin PrC, without the specificity of being an Bounty Hunter/Hired Killer. The conception gets two big thumbs up from me. And seems distinct enough for both the Ranger and the Rogue.

[Crustypeanut]

Heh yeah sorry about being a bit slow :P

Needed to get some food in mah belly.

[Dragonus45]

Chill, it's just a playtest. You might actually like the final version.

Perhaps, it's just that something about the Arcanist just feels so wrong balance wise to me. But that aside the bloodrager and the hunter both look really cool. And the brawler seems just way to cool, do you think it would be fair to the class if i were to add that feat adding ability to the fighter proper.

Really, now that i have my copy the more i read it the more i feel like this is Pathfinder Second edition.

Also am i the only person who keeps seeing Opra as an epic level bard dancing about yelling, You get casting, and you get casting, everyone gets casting.

[Saidoro]

http://imageshack.us/a/img20/5696/n2kk.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/9274/vyhg.png

There are no possible words for how inept the person who designed these progressions is. Have they never seen the spirit shaman or a fixed list caster or even a single word of a single sentence spoken about 3.P spellcasters online? How can they possibly design for a system which has had over a decade's worth of discourse about how it plays and not understand the most basic fundamentals?

[CoriMarie21]

Victory!!!!

[Crustypeanut]

Investigator
Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: d8
Alternate Classes: Alchemist and Rogue
Skill Ranks: 6+Int
BAB: As Alchemist
Strong Saves: Ref/Will



Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Investigators are proficient with simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, and sword cane(UE). They are proficient in light armors, but not shields.

Alchemy: Exact same as Alchemist, minus Mutagens and Bombs

Trapfinding: As Rogue

Poison Resistance: As Alchemist

Poison Use: As Alchemist

Inspiration (Ex): An investigator is beyond skilled and knowledgeable—he also possesses keen powers of observation and deduction above and beyond the abilities of others. An investigator typically uses these powers to aid in their investigations, but can use these flashes of inspiration for other situations.

An investigator has the ability to augment skill checks and ability checks through his brilliant inspiration. The investigator has an inspiration pool equal to 1/2 his investigator level + his Intelligence bonus, minimum 1. As a free action, he can expend one use of inspiration from his pool to add 1d6 to the result of that check (including any he takes 10 or 20 on). This choice is
made after the check is rolled and before the results are revealed. An investigator can only use inspiration once per check or roll. The investigator can use inspiration on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft skill checks
without spending a use of inspiration, provided he’s trained in that skill.

Inspiration can also be used on attack rolls and saving throws, though at the cost of expending two uses of inspiration from the investigator’s pool. In the case of saving throws, using inspiration is an immediate action rather than a free action. When I use this ability, I'm going to yell "Eureka! I've got it!" every time. Heh

Investigator Talent (Ex or Su): At 3rd level and every two levels thereafter, an investigator can take an investigator talent. Unless otherwise noted, an investigator talent can only be selected once.

Alchemist Discovery (Ex): The investigator can select on of the following alchemist discoveries as an investigator talent: combine extracts, concentrate potion, dilution, elixir of life, enhance potion, eternal potion, extend potion, infusion, mutagenUM, poison conversionUC. When taking an alchemist discovery he must be high enough level to qualify for that discovery, using his investigator level to determine if he qualifies. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time, it applies to a new alchemist discovery.

Amazing Inspiration (Ex): When using inspiration, the investigator rolls a d8 instead of d6. At 20th level, the investigator rolls 2d8 and adds both dice to the result. An investigator must be at least 7th level to select this investigator talent.

Combat Inspiration (Ex): When an investigator uses inspiration on an attack roll or saving throw, he expends one use of inspiration instead of two. An investigator must be at least 9th level to select this investigator talent.

Device Talent (Ex): The investigator can use the Use Magic Device skill even if not trained in that skill. If the investigator is trained in Use Magic Device, he can use inspiration with that skill without expending uses of inspiration.

Effortless Aid (Ex): The investigator can perform aid another actions as a move action instead of a standard action. An investigator can expend one use of inspiration to instead perform an aid another action as a swift action. Spending inspiration in this way is a free action.

Eidetic Recollection (Su): An investigator can always choose to take 10 on any of his Knowledge check, even if in immediate danger or distracted. An investigator may expend one use of inspiration to take 20 on a Knowledge skill check even if in immediate danger or distracted. An investigator must be at least 11th level to select this talent.

Expanded Inspiration (Ex): An investigator can use his inspiration on Diplomacy, Perception, Profession, and Sense Motive checks without expending uses of inspiration, provided he’s trained in the skill.

Empathy (Ex, Su): When making a Sense Motive check, the investigator makes two d20 rolls and takes the highest. In investigator also rolls two inspiration dice and take the highest. Once per day as a full-round action, the investigator can expend one use of inspiration to gain the some of the effects of detect thoughts targeting a single creature that he can see and hear within 30 feet. Upon doing so the investigator detects the surface thoughts of the creature’s mind as if he concentrated for three rounds while using the detect thoughts spell unless the creature succeeds a Will saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the investigator’s level + his Intelligence modifier). If the target fails the saving throw, the investigator can continue to detect the surface thoughts of the target creature for a number of rounds equal to half his investigator level. An investigator must be at least 5th level to select this
investigator talent.

Hidden Agendas (Ex): An investigator learns to obscure his thoughts and endeavors from prying eyes and even intrusive magic. When an investigator uses inspiration while using the Bluff skill to pass secret messages or the Linguistics skill to create forgeries, he can roll his inspiration die twice and take the higher result. In addition, the investigator can use inspiration when making a saving throw against a divination spell or effect without expending a use of inspiration. An investigator must be 11th level to select this investigator talent.

Inspirational Expertise (Ex): An investigator successfully uses a Knowledge check to identify a monster’s special powers or vulnerabilities he can expend one use of inspiration pool as swift action to grant allies that can hear him and are within 30 feet of him +4 insight bonus on attack rolls against that monster or type of monster for 1 round. An investigator must be at least 7th level totake this investigator talent.

Inspired Alertness (Ex): Whenever the investigator becomes f lat-footed, he can expend a use of inspiration to ignore that condition. He must be conscious to do so, and must decide to do so when he becomes f lat-footed. Using this ability doesn’t require an action.

Inspiring Intimidator (Ex): When the investigator successfully uses the Intimidate skill to demoralize an opponent, he can expend one use of inspiration to automatically increase the result of the check by 5 for purposes of determining the duration of the demoralize effect. He can choose to spend multiple uses to inspiration in this manner to further increase the duration of the demoralize effect. He must be trained in Intimidate to take this investigator talent. The underworld inspiration investigator talent has no effect on this talent.

Intelligence Inspiration (Su): An investigator can add his inspiration die to all Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft checks without expending uses of inspiration, even those he’s not trained in.

Perceptive Tracking (Ex): The investigator can use Perception instead of Survival to both find and follow tracks (using the same DCs listed in the Survival skill). An investigator must be trained in Perception to take this investigator talent.

Rogue Talent (Ex): The investigator can select a rogue talent as an investigator talent. The investigator cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as an investigator talent, and may not select advanced talents. This can be selected multiple times; each time, it applies to a new rogue talent.

Tenacious Inspiration (Ex): When an investigator rolls an inspiration die, he can roll two inspiration dice and take the higher result. (If using this with true inspiration, he can roll two sets of inspiration dice and the higher result.)The investigator must at least 13th level to select this talent.

Underworld Inspiration (Ex): An investigator can use his inspiration on Disable Device, Disguise, Intimidate, or Sleight of Hand checks without expending uses of inspiration, provided he’s trained in the skill.


Keen Recollection: At 3rd level, an investigator can make all Knowledge skills untrained.

Trap Sense: As Rogue.

Sneak Attack: As Rogue, slower progression though.

Swift Alchemy: As Alchemist

True Inspiration (Ex): At 20th level, an investigator can use inspiration on all skills (even ones he isn’t trained in) and all ability checks without spending inspiration. In addition, whenever he spends inspiration on an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, he adds 2d6 rather than 1d6 to the result. (If using the amazing inspiration investigator talent, he rolls 2d8 instead.)

[Antariuk]

There are no possible words for how inept the person who designed these progressions is. Have they never seen the spirit shaman or a fixed list caster or even a single word of a single sentence spoken about 3.P spellcasters online? How can they possibly design for a system which has had over a decade's worth of discourse about how it plays and not understand the most basic fundamentals?


What do you mean, "designed"?
'Arcanist Spells Prepared' is 100% copypasta from the Sorcerer's 'Spells Known' table, and 'Spells Per Day' is equal to the Sorcerer's -1. I wouldn't really call that design as much as homebrew ;)

[subject42]

The investigator gets a d10, but alchemist BAB? Doesn't that violate one of Paizo's golden rules?

[Antariuk]

Investigator gets D8 as Hit Dice, not D10.

[Divayth Fyr]

Arcanist
(...)
I feel you have missed some lesser, but still nice features in your summary - they get to add metamagic to spells like a wizard does (no extra casting time, uses a higher slot for preparation), like a sorcerer (a longer casting time) or combining them both, they get free spells known from the bloodline (at levels 3, 5, 7 and so on) and everything concerning their casting is keyed off Intelligence.

[Antariuk]

Also, you get to use your bloodline powers as a (Su) standard action, which might suck with certain powers, but there are quite a lot of (Sp) abilites, and I don't mind using them without AoO's :)

[Saidoro]

What do you mean with "designed"? 'Arcanist Spells Prepared' is 100% copypasta from the Sorcerer's 'Spells Known' table, and 'Spells Per Day' is equal to the Sorcerer's -1. I Wouldn't really call that design as much as homebrew ;)
That's part of what makes it so bad. Take a look at the homebrew coming from people on this site, people like Kellus or Jarian or Lord Gareth or Ziegander. I'm not certain they could design something this boring and intellectually lazy if they tried. And they're posting their work anonymously and pro bono on a homebrew forum while whoever put together those tables is working for one of the largest Tabletop RPG publishers on the planet. I am offended, and that is not something that happens often. (Well, Lord Gareth is working with DSP now, but still...)

[ExarKun]

So they dropped the bab based on hit die?

[Rblock]

It's kind of strange that the Investigator gets sneak attack slower then usual because the vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) will be out sneak attacking it... I do like the skill monkeying though!

The fact that all of these classes piggyback on their previous ones spellcasting makes me kind of disappointed. I'd figure they'd at least give them some unique spell lists/spells to go with their class features, like they did with the Magus.

The War Priest is kind of cool, I like a class that can self buff easily without using any actions besides swift actions so that's nice. Since it has all martial/simple and not deities favored weapon for proficiency's sake, you can end up getting weapon focus with a weapon you're not proficient in (Pick Deity with whip > get bacon). I like it better then the inquisitor, Fluffwise especially, as being super intense is kind of boring.

[Craft (Cheese)]

The classes... need serious work. I'll just leave it at that. They had the opportunity to make some really interesting stuff here and failed terribly.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I just got my mitts on a copy of the playtest. Looking at the Arcanist now.

I'm curious: what's up with the multiclassing restrictions? Is that just for the purposes of the playtest? Do they not want character builds 'tainted' by their non-hybrid parents?

Do you think this rule will exist in the actual final product?

[Crustypeanut]

Ah sorry guys, typo with the Investigator's HD. Fixing it now.

[Psyren]

So they dropped the bab based on hit die?

It seems to be a typo.

Also, lol alchemistotum. (But I'm gonna play the crap out of it regardless.)


The classes... need serious work. I'll just leave it at that. They had the opportunity to make some really interesting stuff here and failed terribly.

They have one that's bad. Yeesh, Chicken Little.

[HylianKnight]

Jumping on this Arcanist bandwagon, what was the concept that they were even going for?!

I'm loving so much of this because you have a lot of concepts that are resonant and/or have been holes that have long been inadequately filled in Pathfinder. The slayer gets to the heart of why people are attracted to the Assassin mechanics but not it's actually identity (Evil Contract Killer). The Swashbuckler succeeds where things like the Duelist tried and failed.

But the Arcanist? What flavor are they going for? When you boil it down, they are Wizards (Int-based casting, Spellbook they must carry around and study every morning), with a slightly different casting method. So instead of my Wizard preparing spells on a one to one ratio, now he prepares a selection to choose from with his casting that day. It seems so ridiculously minor on a flavor level, and so major on a potential game play balance level.

[Crustypeanut]

Arcanist seems to be the 'meh' class of the new ones so far - I mean the concept of a sorcerer/wizard IS kind of silly to begin with.

:P

[Craft (Cheese)]

They have one that's bad. Yeesh, Chicken Little.

I'm not even talking about balance here, there's just way too much copy-pasta from the parent classes and not enough unique stuff.

[HylianKnight]

I'm curious: what's up with the multiclassing restrictions? Is that just for the purposes of the playtest? Do they not want character builds 'tainted' by their non-hybrid parents?

Do you think this rule will exist in the actual final product?

It's there for the same reason that rule exists for alternate classes. You just can't have scenarios where a class can multiclass into level one of the same class. It's there for balance and design space reasons and will almost certainly be final.

[Dragonus45]

They have one that's bad. Yeesh, Chicken Little.

As bad as i think the arcanist is i generally agree with you there, everything does seem to be pretty cool outside of one major flubup.

[HylianKnight]

As bad as i think the arcanist is i generally agree with you there, everything does seem to be pretty cool outside of one major flubup.

Same here, it's a real shame that that comes first Alphabetically to ensure you immediately get a potentially bad impression of the book :smallannoyed:

[Lord_Gareth]

But the Skald gets to sing a Rage Song!

..now who's going to be the one to come up with the song that adequately works for a Rage Song?

"Baby baby baby ooooooh...."

[Crustypeanut]

"Baby baby baby ooooooh...."

>.> Hahaha

Working on the Shaman now, guys!

[Divayth Fyr]

"Baby baby baby ooooooh...."
That would certainly make ma rage - though the skald would be the first target most likely...


Working on the Shaman now, guys!
I could help with posting the other classes - unless you want to do that yourself.

[DawnRaven]

A great deal of the class features and such really do feel like just identical copies of existing classes. I suppose the idea of having some mixed-class classes isn't bad, but isn't that what archetypes were designed to do for a great part? With all the crazy, elaborate and interesting homebrew classes I've seen its hard to be excited for many of these.

[Rblock]

They have one that's bad. Yeesh, Chicken Little.
I will say, a lot of these just feel like copy and pasted bits compared to how the Magus is. The Magus is a simple concept with a bunch of unique mechanics added to it, whereas this is just... here have some things this class can do glued to the others.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the classes don't feel unique enough. Sans the Brawler, Investigator, and the Swashbuckler, I feel like these are all pretty ehhh. I like the War Priest/Skald as well, but again probably for the wrong reasons.

[Psyren]

Arcanist seems to be the 'meh' class of the new ones so far - I mean the concept of a sorcerer/wizard IS kind of silly to begin with.

:P

I'm going to guess that Shaman is the "Druid/Cleric" so they probably felt they had to do Sorc/Wiz to match it. But those classes already overlap so much they don't need a hybrid.


I'm not even talking about balance here, there's just way too much copy-pasta from the parent classes and not enough unique stuff.

No, copy-pasta is good. Ability A is Ability A and should be, because it helps designers and players alike. WotC tripped themselves up terribly with "not-sneak-attack" and "not-trapfinding" and "not-turning."

[Craft (Cheese)]

I will say, a lot of these just feel like copy and pasted bits compared to how the Magus is. The Magus is a simple concept with a bunch of unique mechanics added to it, whereas this is just... here have some things this class can do glued to the others.

Yeah, I was coming in expecting to get 10 maguses and instead we got Multiclass Archetypes (http://mcarchetype.wikispaces.com/Multiclass+Archetypes+Master+List). (Except some of the multiclass archetypes are much more creative and interesting than what we got here. Most of them are pretty terrible though.)

And by copy-pasta I don't mean I want them to make tons of fiddly changes to the abilities for no reason even though they have the same name (like the 100 different versions of Hide In Plain Sight). I mean I want them to write completely new mechanics that capture the spirit of both classes. I'm not mad that the investigator and the slayer get the same sneak attack as the rogue, I'm mad that they get sneak attack at all.

[HylianKnight]

I'm a little disappointed that whereas the Magus got it's own unique spell list, the Warpriest just gets a Cleric Spell-List that stops at level 6.

All in all I'm trying to figure out where it's going. A cleric with 3/4 Spellcasting in exchange for a combat bonus feat every 3rd level and Sacred Armor and Weapon abilities, and Blessings in exchange for Domains? How is that a good deal, let alone interesting?

[Crustypeanut]

Shaman is Witch/Oracle

She.. looks pretty neat so far, actually!

Which Spirit do you guys want me to post? There are as many as there are for Oracles, and they're similarly themed.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Ooh, ooh! Dark Tapestry. 8D

[Crustypeanut]

I am sad to say.. that there is no Dark Tapestry one.

Yet.

Want Battle? Bones? Life? Flammeee?

[Saidoro]

All in all I'm trying to figure out where it's going. A cleric with 3/4 Spellcasting in exchange for a combat bonus feat every 3rd level and Sacred Armor and Weapon abilities, and Blessings in exchange for Domains? How is that a good deal, let alone interesting?
I think the book itself says it best.

Although not as capable as a cleric, the warpriest can still serve as a capable healer or spellcaster, calling upon his divine powers from the center of the fight, where his armor and martial skill can be put to the test.
Also, this thing desperately needs a way to get channel smite at first level and a way for good aligned characters to be even remotely as good as evil ones.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Ooh, ooh! Dark Tapestry. 8D

There's no Dark Tapestry spirit, there's only the oracle mysteries that were in the APG. Most of the hexes you can get from each spirit are directly copy-pasted Oracle revelations.

IMO the only positive feature of the Warpriest is that players with DMs who ban tier 1 casters now have an easy way to play a Cleric.

[Psyren]

You probably don't need to upload anything else, I was just able to grab the document in a couple of seconds. The bulk of the load has subsided I'm guessing, or maybe switching off the forums helped.

[Crustypeanut]

Ah righteo!

[Spore]

Arcanist MAY be my new favorite class. Flexibility of the wizard and sorcerer combined without features you didn't even want in the first place. Sleek.

Still, I will they had at least 1 spell slot less than a universalist wizard.

[Rblock]

The Skald is actually pretty interesting. Giving Rage Powers in performance is nice (WE ALL CAN POUNCE NOW HOLY CRAP), and getting scribe scroll for free is a cute little bit of utility.

[Crustypeanut]

Hmmm the Skald's Rage Powers can be granted by any ally under the effects of his Rage Song?

...I can now imagine them using Raging Leaper.. and it makes me cackle in delight.

[DawnRaven]

No, copy-pasta is good. Ability A is Ability A and should be, because it helps designers and players alike. WotC tripped themselves up terribly with "not-sneak-attack" and "not-trapfinding" and "not-turning."

That's what they did here though. For example, many of the Shaman's "hexes" are oracle abilities. So you end up with Guiding Star (Su) the revelation and Guiding Star (Su) the hex. Same thing, but one operates as a revelation and the other a hex.

Or you have hexes that can only be used X times per day. I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't one of the "things" about the witches hexes was that they could all be used unlimited times per day?

[Snowbluff]

Is anyone as unimpressed as I am? I mean, people keep talking about "new class" when all I am seeing is either a silly gestalt or making me wish Paizo had written multiclass feats like Daring Outlaw. :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

That's what they did here though. For example, many of the Shaman's "hexes" are oracle abilities. So you end up with Guiding Star (Su) the revelation and Guiding Star (Su) the hex. Same thing, but one operates as a revelation and the other a hex.

Or you have hexes that can only be used X times per day. I'm not 100% sure, but wasn't one of the "things" about the witches hexes was that they could all be used unlimited times per day?

"Hex" just means "magical ability." It doesn't matter that the Shaman gets some that are called Revelations to the Oracle. There are both buffing hexes and limited-use hexes on the Witch too - Flight falls under both of those categories for instance, and Weather Control is another 1/day hex. So no, Hex does not inherently mean "at-will power."

[Saidoro]

"Hex" just means "magical ability." It doesn't matter that the Shaman gets some that are called Revelations to the Oracle. There are both buffing hexes and limited-use hexes on the Witch too - Flight falls under both of those categories for instance, and Weather Control is another 1/day hex. So no, Hex does not inherently mean "at-will power."
If a Hex is just a magical ability then what is a revelation? Or an Arcana? Or a Ninja Trick?

[Psyren]

If a Hex is just a magical ability then what is a revelation? Or an Arcana? Or a Ninja Trick?

"Magical ability for an Oracle," "Magical ability for a Magus," and "(Sometimes) magical ability for a Ninja", respectively. And that is really all they need to mean.

[Snowbluff]

It begins. :smalltongue:

[Craft (Cheese)]

I just realized the reason why I find the Shaman so uninspiring: It's a less flexible (discounting its full Cleric spellcasting), less interesting Occultist.

[Psyren]

Rereading the Arcanist, its growing on me a bit. I still think it has too many spells/day, but the idea of a sorcerer that can swap its spells known out each morning does have potential. There's a possibility here of hitting the sweet spot that the Erudite missed, whereby the spells/day (UPD) are a meaningful limitation without being strangling.

I would personally invert Blood Focus - make spells of your chosen school and bloodline be regular power, and all others suffer a CL penalty. Even the fluff supports it, they're not quite sure what they're doing and are caught in a sort of limbo between being sorcerers and wizards.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'm liking the Bloodrager for how ridiculous it is, the Slayer's mechanics, and the Warpriest's simple mechanics seem pretty awesome

[Saidoro]

"Magical ability for an Oracle," "Magical ability for a Magus," and "(Sometimes) magical ability for a Ninja", respectively. And that is really all they need to mean.
So why is the shaman getting magical abilities for an oracle which it is calling magical abilities for a witch while being neither? And more significantly, why are they just copying what came before instead of innovating by even the slightest of degrees?

[CTrees]

A lot of Paizo's playtests have been somewhat... lacking. But then they get fleshed out and made more unique for the final product. As long as the ideas are interesting (many of them are, here), I still have high hopes for the release version.

[Crustypeanut]

I just hope they have Wayne Renolds-drawn Iconics for these guys when they do finally come out.

:P

[Antariuk]

I am looking at the shaman right now, wondering what some of the hex feats from UM or UC might allow you to pull off... :smallbiggrin: I think I like the shaman, although the druid spell list would have been a better fit, we have so many classes slinging cleric spells now.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I just hope they have Wayne Renolds-drawn Iconics for these guys when they do finally come out.

:P

I sure hope so: The art is my favorite part of most Paizo books.

Also, something I just noticed: The Bloodrager only gets spellcasting up to 4th-level spells, and like a Ranger/Paladin can't cast at all at level 1.

Whhhhhyyyyy?


I am looking at the shaman right now, wondering what some of the hex feats from UM or UC might allow you to pull off... :smallbiggrin: I think I like the shaman, although the druid spell list would have been a better fit, we have so many classes slinging cleric spells now.

Or better yet, a unique spell list. Seriously, I know it's time-consuming to write them and all, but is that too much to ask?

[Baroncognito]

I sure hope so: The art is my favorite part of most Paizo books.

Also, something I just noticed: The Bloodrager only gets spellcasting up to 4th-level spells, and like a Ranger/Paladin can't cast at all at level 1.

Whhhhhyyyyy?

Because it's a full BAB class.

[Psyren]

So why is the shaman getting magical abilities for an oracle which it is calling magical abilities for a witch while being neither?

Why are you so hung up on names?

They could have called them "Boons" without changing anything else about them and erased your quibble entirely.


And more significantly, why are they just copying what came before instead of innovating by even the slightest of degrees?

Putting existing abilities on a new chassis is innovation. It alters the chance and ways that those abilities get used.

[Snowbluff]

So why is the shaman getting magical abilities for an oracle which it is calling magical abilities for a witch while being neither? And more significantly, why are they just copying what came before instead of innovating by even the slightest of degrees?

Shush, just let this happen. It's like hypothermia. You'll stop feeling it after a while.

Yes, I am perplexed as well.

[Rblock]

Or better yet, a unique spell list. Seriously, I know it's time-consuming to write them and all, but is that too much to ask?

Really, that's huge. The Shaman/Arcanist, sure whatever, they are full spell casters anyways, but the gish ones need it way more. I mean hell, you don't have to go all out and give them haste as a second level spell (hi summoner how're you doing), but having something a little iconic or even some new spells/stuff they wouldn't normally get would be cool.

[CigarPete]

So, am I reading the Arcanist correctly in that if I take the Arcane Bloodline, as a standard, I could use blood focus to get the 9th level bloodline power, adding up to three new spells know for a few rounds, cast them, then use the blood focus ability again to swap out those spells for different ones, none of which are required to be in my spellbook? That ... seems a little strong.

[Dragonus45]

Really, that's huge. The Shaman/Arcanist, sure whatever, they are full spell casters anyways, but the gish ones need it way more. I mean hell, you don't have to go all out and give them haste as a second level spell (hi summoner how're you doing), but having something a little iconic or even some new spells/stuff they wouldn't normally get would be cool.

I'm fairly certain that after the playtest is over they will all have unique spell lists. For now i see the playtest as being how they will plan out the spell lists.

[Axinian]

I'm torn on the Bloodrager. On the one hand, it does get some interesting powers while in rage. On the other, it really should be able to cast from level 1. I was really really hoping it would ride the line more in terms of being a gish, rather than dimishing the spellcasting aspect to such a degree.

[Psyren]

So, am I reading the Arcanist correctly in that if I take the Arcane Bloodline, as a standard, I could use blood focus to get the 9th level bloodline power, adding up to three new spells know for a few rounds, cast them, then use the blood focus ability again to swap out those spells for different ones, none of which are required to be in my spellbook? That ... seems a little strong.

As written that wouldn't actually do anything, because Arcanists can only cast spells that they have prepared. So you would spend a standard, get three new spells known for {level} rounds, and then feel them drain away before you can prepare them.

[DarkSonic1337]

Because it's a full BAB class.

Kind of hoping they would've learned from Duskblade.

It was a flavorful and balanced Magic/Fighting class that had full bab and could cast from level 1.

I personally hate how Ranger and Paladin have delayed spellcasting, rather than just reduced spellcasting.

On a related note, does 3.5 have something like a "Mystic Paladin" that gets accelerated casting akin to the Mystic Ranger?

[Psyren]

On a related note, does 3.5 have something like a "Mystic Paladin" that gets accelerated casting akin to the Mystic Ranger?

There's SotAO, but I think you need to optimize it to get faster progression.

[Baroncognito]

I'm actually interested by Warpriest.

She gets Weapon focus in her deity's favoured weapon, she gets Sacred bond with her deity's favoured weapon which gets her +1 (to +5 depending on level) for one round per level.

What I like about this is it actually gives the priest a reason to use her deity's favoured weapon.

[Sayt]

The Arcanist makes me excited, but it is possibly a bit too much.

To me, Hunter just seems like a much-reduced Druid, and other than the medium armour, I don't see where the Ranger is supposed to be from.

But I like the Slayer, Warpriest, Investigator and Bloodrager quite a bit.

And really, the Brawler seems to be what people want out of the monk, but it's just so....bland.

EDIT: Also, the Slayer's text is a bit messed up in the pdf. Sneak attack is listed twice. Anyone else got this?

[Saidoro]

Why are you so hung up on names?

They could have called them "Boons" without changing anything else about them and erased your quibble entirely.
Names are important. Used well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), they can do more to make a class flavorful than just about anything else. They can also be used to tip the player off to what to expect without in depth reading, if someone sees hexes after reading the witch it's not unreasonable for them to assume that they'll be mostly once per target per day or at will abilities. And there's also the fact that making them hexes means they can't add any abilities to the list that would interact weirdly with pre-existing hex feats. Which is fine, or even beneficial, if you're planning on sticking close to what pre-existing hexes can do but can be highly confining if you aren't. I'll grant that it's not as huge an issue as the arcanist has, but it's still an issue.

Putting existing abilities on a new chassis is innovation. It alters the chance and ways that those abilities get used.
There's this thing called multiclassing... And archetypes... And feats... And magic items...
Seriously, I'm not seeing ten new classes here. There's two abject failures, an archetype apiece for the barbarian, bard, fighter and cleric and maybe four highly derivative classes(one of which is just a T3 cleric fix when we already have inquisitor).

[Psyren]

Investigator is making me cream my breeches with every word I read. Man oh man! Now this is what the Savant should have been.

[Crustypeanut]

And really, the Brawler seems to be what people want out of the monk, but it's just so....bland.

Think of the Brawler..

Now think of him wearing a mask in spandex wrestling demons to the ground.

LUCHADOR!

Makes him much more interesting! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Names are important. Used well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), they can do more to make a class flavorful than just about anything else. They can also be used to tip the player off to what to expect without in depth reading, if someone sees hexes after reading the witch it's not unreasonable for them to assume that they'll be mostly once per target per day or at will abilities. And there's also the fact that making them hexes means they can't add any abilities to the list that would interact weirdly with pre-existing hex feats. Which is fine, or even beneficial, if you're planning on sticking close to what pre-existing hexes can do but can be highly confining if you aren't. I'll grant that it's not as huge an issue as the arcanist has, but it's still an issue.

1) You're assuming here that they don't want it to interact with existing hex stuff e.g. feats. Chances are that, you know, they do.

2) Yeah, names do add flavor. The name "Hex" tells you "this is a magical ability", and further makes you think of the Witch when you read it, whose magic is not entirely controlled or understood by them. It looks like that's where they're leaning with the Shaman too, so it makes sense to invoke that flavor. Again, I fail to see the problem.



There's this thing called multiclassing... And archetypes... And feats... And magic items...

Was there a point there somewhere? The first two have nothing to do with the chassis of the base/default class, while the latter two are independent of class entirely.

[Baroncognito]

To me, Hunter just seems like a much-reduced Druid, and other than the medium armour, I don't see where the Ranger is supposed to be from.

Medium armour and no restrictions upon the armour material. Beyond that, the tracking is from the Ranger. That's about it.

If the effects lasted one minute per Hunter level that'd be better. One hour per level, like wildshape, would be fair.

[Psyren]

The bow proficiencies come from Ranger too. No sling for that guy.

Animal Focus really needs to last for an hour, minimum, if it's going to have so few uses/day.

[Spore]

So why is the shaman getting magical abilities for an oracle which it is calling magical abilities for a witch while being neither? And more significantly, why are they just copying what came before instead of innovating by even the slightest of degrees?

We are getting 2e class combinations back, that's why. And I LOVE IT.

[Sayt]

Medium armour and no restrictions upon the armour material. Beyond that, the tracking is from the Ranger. That's about it.

If the effects lasted one minute per Hunter level that'd be better. One hour per level, like wildshape, would be fair.

I agree with the Animal Focus. I'd definately make it scale by level, maybe 10 minutes per level, like the mutagen.

And If I decided to ban T1 casters in a game, I would definitely recommend this in the place of the druid, and probably the Warpriest in the place of the Cleric.

One other thing I'd like is to make the Warpriest's channel progress a bit faster. Warpriest/Holy Vindicator seems like a match made in a Really Nice Place, off the top of my head.


Think of the Brawler..

Now think of him wearing a mask in spandex wrestling demons to the ground.

LUCHADOR!

Makes him much more interesting!

Ehhhh, I think this might just be a matter of differing tastes.

[Lord_Gareth]

Names are important. Used well (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), they can do more to make a class flavorful than just about anything else. They can also be used to tip the player off to what to expect without in depth reading, if someone sees hexes after reading the witch it's not unreasonable for them to assume that they'll be mostly once per target per day or at will abilities. And there's also the fact that making them hexes means they can't add any abilities to the list that would interact weirdly with pre-existing hex feats. Which is fine, or even beneficial, if you're planning on sticking close to what pre-existing hexes can do but can be highly confining if you aren't. I'll grant that it's not as huge an issue as the arcanist has, but it's still an issue.

...Did I just get linked in a snarky internet argument?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Whoever designed this is a bad person and they need to feel bad.

Agreed SO hard. It's basically a Spirit Shaman, except SAD. I wonder what it's spells per day/Spells "retrieved" look like.

I'll admit - the Swashbuckler has me intrigued.

[Saidoro]

1) You're assuming here that they don't want it to interact with existing hex stuff e.g. feats. Chances are that, you know, they do.
The Paizo design team has long since passed the point where I'm willing to assume they're being clever rather than lazy.

2) Yeah, names do add flavor. The name "Hex" tells you "this is a magical ability", and further makes you think of the Witch when you read it, whose magic is not entirely controlled or understood by them. It looks like that's where they're leaning with the Shaman too, so it makes sense to invoke that flavor. Again, I fail to see the problem.
Hexes are curses. The witch is a class that casts from a debuffy cursy spell list and has a focus on debuffy effects on its hex list. The shaman is class that casts from a buffy healy spell list and has a (slight) focus on buffy effects on its hex list. It's not a huge problem by any stretch, but I don't like it.

Was there a point there somewhere? The first two have nothing to do with the chassis of the base/default class, while the latter two are independent of class entirely.
Why does swashbuckler need to exist as a class instead of a fighter archetype?
Or a feat chain?(Fighters get lots of feats...)
Why does skald need to exist as a class instead of a bard archetype?
Or a feat chain?
Why does bloodrager need to exist as a class instead of a barbarian archetype?
Why is bloodcasting not a feat chain or a rage power?
Why are bloodlines not totem rage powers?
Why does shaman need to exist as a class instead of a cleric archetype?
Why is slayer not a prestige class?
Or a multiclass feat?
Why do Arcanist and Brawler exist?

I understand hunter and warpriest, they're T3 fixes of T1 classes(not that Paizo will ever admit it), I adore investigator, and I even like some of the classes I'm questioning above, but this is not an innovative book. It does not do things in new ways, it does not make full use of its design space, it does not investigate new ideas, it does not enable new concepts and it does not take risks.

[Snowbluff]

Agreed SO hard. It's basically a Spirit Shaman, except SAD. I wonder what it's spells per day/Spells "retrieved" look like.


Thirded. I wasn't going to say it, but that's spot on.

[Crustypeanut]

Lets all get along...

"Lets all join along in the Rage Song Sing Along!"

[Divayth Fyr]

I wonder what it's spells per day/Spells "retrieved" look like.
Like this? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16456798&postcount=37)


Lets all get along...

"Lets all join along in the Rage Song Sing Along!"
And we sang rage rage
Anger anger anger anger
Fury fury fury fury songs
Hell you know that's how we get along

The world is full of Fighting
So how can it be wrong?
Singing rage rage rage rage
Anger anger fury fury songs

[zlefin]

Just looked through the pdf; wasn't that fond of it.
It's not that the classes are bad per se, they seem quite reasonable as classes; they just feel so, derivative. They feel like they tend to lack individual flavor.


I'd almost rather have some sort of Legend style track system; that'd give the same results, but let you mashup any two classes you want; instead of only having 10 specific combinations.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, didn't realise that this monstrosity had spawned 5 (now 6) pages. My bad.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, didn't realise that this monstrosity had spawned 5 (now 6) pages. My bad.

I am afraid to look at the Paizo board. :smalleek:

[Crustypeanut]

Heh I'm the one who started it. :P

[Kuulvheysoon]

I am afraid to look at the Paizo board. :smalleek:

Only 26 posts, and most of them are people waiting for the download to finish. The 2/3 people who have actual material have generally positive remarks - it's actually a lot more active over here.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I like most of the classes here, although the Brawler still requires the old houseruled-brass-knuckles-that-allow-him-to-use-his-unarmed-strike-damage to be really viable, but that's an easy fix.
What I really don't get is the Warpriest and the Arcanist... why do they exist? Really, why? Just play a Cleric with a couple of combat feats or any Wizard, respectively.

[Saidoro]

...Did I just get linked in a snarky internet argument?
Harrowed was a good example due to that whole "oozing flavor from every pore" thing it does. And you really have no one to blame for that but yourself:smalltongue:.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also, something I just noticed: The Bloodrager only gets spellcasting up to 4th-level spells, and like a Ranger/Paladin can't cast at all at level 1.

Whhhhhyyyyy?
Because it works? :smalltongue: But I forgot, a full BAB arcane half caster is unconstitutional! :smallwink:



Or better yet, a unique spell list. Seriously, I know it's time-consuming to write them and all, but is that too much to ask?
Not time-consuming, space-consuming. They didn't want the playtest document to be as long as the final book. :smalltongue: I'm sure they'll have their own spell lists written out, but they were clearly trying to save space and it's probably a pretty good approximation of what they'll get.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Magus list fits pretty well. Enough buff spells to be nice. I like the warpriest has its niche, too, being more of an actual combatant right off the bat than a caster. And I like that: Warpriest is to Magus as Cleric is to Wizard.

[Kaisos Erranon]

I'm sure they'll have their own spell lists written out, but they were clearly trying to save space and it's probably a pretty good approximation of what they'll get.
Unfortunately, no. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj8?Hunter-Discussion#10)

[Antariuk]

I don't know what to make of the bloodrager...
It's actually cool that you can get access to flying at 8th level with the elemental bloodline, but the spell progression is sooo crippled, especially the bonus spells from bloodlines. Blur, hideous laughter, or false life at 10th level? Really? At least there is a surprising amount of protection from energy to be found throughout the bloodlines.


Only 26 posts, and most of them are people waiting for the download to finish. The 2/3 people who have actual material have generally positive remarks - it's actually a lot more active over here.

Since the Paizo boards shut down for several hours after the playtest release, this is not a surprise - neither are the positive remarks. After all, you don't want to hurt the feelings of JJ, JB, or SKR, no? As long as you're having fun, everything is shiny :)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

An Angelkin Aasimar bloodrager with the Celestial bloodline would be amazing, if you switched around some of the racial abilities.

[zimmerwald1915]

Just looked through the pdf; wasn't that fond of it.
It's not that the classes are bad per se, they seem quite reasonable as classes; they just feel so, derivative. They feel like they tend to lack individual flavor.
It's not just the mechanics. The playtest document is almost entirely devoid of flavor as well. And before you excuse it for just being a playtest document, the section of Mythic Adventures dealing with the various paths has about as much flavor in it as the playtest for that book, which dealt entirely with the paths.

[Renegade Paladin]

Unfortunately, no. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj8?Hunter-Discussion#10)
Warpriest of all classes not getting divine power until 10th level? LOLOLOL :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Magus list fits pretty well. Enough buff spells to be nice. I like the warpriest has its niche, too, being more of an actual combatant right off the bat than a caster. And I like that: Warpriest is to Magus as Cleric is to Wizard.

We already have a 2/3 Divine casting 3/4 BaB class. It's Inquisitor. Which is a derivative of Bard already...

[Kaisos Erranon]

Warpriest of all classes not getting divine power until 10th level? LOLOLOL :smallamused:
Really I'm not sure why the class has casting to begin with, it invalidates pretty much everything else it does.
Giving it full BAB and more uses/day for Blessings might allow it to fill some kind of actual niche, but as it is it's just a much worse Cleric...

[13ones]

I like the Arcanist but it feels like it is just a Sage blood line sorcerer with a little extra something added in and the ability to swap out spells every morning. It is kind of neat and I do love me some spontaneous casting but it feels a little bland, a little lacking in flavour.

In its place i would have rather seen something like a Blood mage. Con based caster, 9 full levels of spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Spontaneous casting. good will save. Pick one school and this is the school that you are attuned to. Same spell progression as Sorcerer Spend hit points to do certain things at certain level ( think bloodline powers) such as; spend hit points to increase dc, spend hit points to reroll a save, spend hit points to heal a friend, spend hit points to creat a 'blood well' effect that heals/hurts/provides support.

I would have MUCH rathered this than the Arcanist. Slayer is my next favourite. I've been trying to pull this off since I started pathfinder.

[Crustypeanut]

So it was just brought to my attention that Brawlers can technically go with heavy armor and shields and still be considered dual wielding, as long as they use an unarmed attack or monk weapon.

I made a quick Brawler with 19 AC right out the door at level 1 - should she grab Shield Procifiency, she'll have 21 AC.. and then at level 2, be able to dual wield her singular fist for two attacks per round.

Woo!

[Benthesquid]

You know, I'm pretty sure Paizo was always advertising the Advanced Class Guide as being melds of preexisting classes rather than entirely new classes. So to those commenting that that it seems that way... yeah.

Not that I wouldn't have liked a bunch of actually new classes myself, but I didn't go into this expecting that, as a bunch of people seem to have.

[avr]

The underpowered failure (the Hunter; almost strictly inferior to the Druid which is one of its sources) doesn't bother me as much as pushing the bar for full casters a bit higher in the Arcanist. Their preparation mechanic is understandable if very good, add the metamagic mechanic as well and it's the best spellcaster there is.

The Investigator looks like fun as does the Bloodrager. The others I can't bring myself to care a great deal about.

[zimmerwald1915]

In its place i would have rather seen something like a Blood mage. Con based caster, 9 full levels of spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Spontaneous casting. good will save. Pick one school and this is the school that you are attuned to. Same spell progression as Sorcerer Spend hit points to do certain things at certain level ( think bloodline powers) such as; spend hit points to increase dc, spend hit points to reroll a save, spend hit points to heal a friend, spend hit points to creat a 'blood well' effect that heals/hurts/provides support.
1. Not that Paizo has any qualms whatsoever about reusing names, but the already used the name "Bloodmage" for a prestige class.

2. They also made a con-based caster in the form of the Scarred Witch Doctor.

3. WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE MAKE A CON-BASED CASTER WHYWHYWHYWHYWHY

[Renegade Paladin]

We already have a 2/3 Divine casting 3/4 BaB class. It's Inquisitor. Which is a derivative of Bard already...
Inquisitor has a niche that isn't "divine beatstick," though. I won't deny it can fill that role, and with the current spell list arrangement can do so as well as the warpriest, but it would be easy to make the warpriest do that better with spell list tweaking - which apparently they don't want to do - or making warpriest levels count as fighter levels for their bonus feats, which they haven't done either but could easily. Sacred weapon/armor comes later than judgments, but scales better than they do (not to mention the inquisitor needs to burn three judgments - i.e. be sixteenth level by which time it's ceased to matter - to gain the effect of actually turning his weapon into a magic weapon for all intents and purposes). That and warpriest being a prepared rather than spontaneous caster makes it far more flexible; if the inquisitor wants to gear his spell selection for the battlefield role then he's sacrificing a lot of what makes the class unique.

[Crustypeanut]

1. Not that Paizo has any qualms whatsoever about reusing names, but the already used the name "Bloodmage" for a prestige class.

2. They also made a con-based caster in the form of the Scarred Witch Doctor.

3. WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE MAKE A CON-BASED CASTER WHYWHYWHYWHYWHY

*Bloatmage

Bloodmage is the PFSRD non-copyrighted version.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Is it just me or does every Skald ability after Rage Song seem to be apologizing for it? Rage Song just seems horrible to me. It might be because I like playing spellcasters, who are completely unhelped by the class.

[Antariuk]

1. Not that Paizo has any qualms whatsoever about reusing names, but the already used the name "Bloodmage" for a prestige class.

If you're referring to the PrC as listed on d20pfsrd.com, that is actually the Bloatmage. They had to rename a few things because copyright and stuff.

EDIT: Damn ninjas, one day I'll get you.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Bloatmage is the Paizo name.

[Crustypeanut]

Is it just me or does every Skald ability after Rage Song seem to be apologizing for it? Rage Song just seems horrible to me. It might be because I like playing spellcasters, who are completely unhelped by the class.

Its just you. A group heavy on non-spellcasters would love that ability - and I think the Skald was meant to appeal to more physical-heavy groups.

A Bard's inspire courage doesn't help much for casters, either :P 'Sept for touch spells, obviously.

[avr]

1. Not that Paizo has any qualms whatsoever about reusing names, but the already used the name "Bloodmage" for a prestige class.

2. They also made a con-based caster in the form of the Scarred Witch Doctor.

3. WHY OH WHY WOULD ANYONE MAKE A CON-BASED CASTER WHYWHYWHYWHYWHY
Actually the Scarred Witch Doctor isn't so bad. SAD, yes, but the mediocre witch spell list keeps it under control.

[Axinian]

Is it just me or does every Skald ability after Rage Song seem to be apologizing for it? Rage Song just seems horrible to me. It might be because I like playing spellcasters, who are completely unhelped by the class.

It's not like spellcasters were helped by inspire courage either. Rage Song seems better than inspire courage in certain ways, the ability to bestow rage powers among them.

I'm actually really liking both the Skald and Swashbuckler. Both are very flavorful, combine their abilities in interesting ways, and have new and interesting abilities.

My least favorites? Arcanist and Slayer. Both are super boring, don't combine abilities in interesting ways, and don't have flavor meaningfully different from their component classes.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

When playing a magus, I LOVE bardic performance, as magi's attack bonuses are not great. Its kind of weird to actually have to choose whether to be affected or not.

[Crustypeanut]

I like some of the slayer's.. slayer talents.

Thats about it.. so yeah, its not 'that' interesting of a class. I mainly love me some armored FISTS. OF. FURY!

[Stux]

I really like the majority of what I am seeing.

Yeah, Arcanist is kind of borked. Personally I would replace it with a Sorcerer/Rogue PF spin on a Beguiler.

[Benthesquid]

When playing a magus, I LOVE bardic performance, as magi's attack bonuses are not great. Its kind of weird to actually have to choose whether to be affected or not.

The key here is that when Raging, you can't use any abilities that require concentration, such as spellcasting.

[Benthesquid]

If you're referring to the PrC as listed on d20pfsrd.com, that is actually the Bloatmage. They had to rename a few things because copyright and stuff.

EDIT: Damn ninjas, one day I'll get you.

No, Atariuk, you ARE the ninjas.

*And then John was a zombie*

[Crustypeanut]

I just had a fun idea.

A Gun Tank Gunslinger/Brawler, using a Tower Shield, Breastplate, and kicking people when they get too close, using Quick Draw and lots of pistols for ranged!

Just throw the pistols at the enemy when each one runs out of ammo!

[Psyren]

The Paizo design team has long since passed the point where I'm willing to assume they're being clever rather than lazy.

That sounds like a personal problem to me; projecting it to this playtest is both irrational and pointless.



Hexes are curses.

Flight is a curse? Fortune? Ward? Aura of Purity? Healing? Disguise? Vision?

Again, the term literally just means "supernatural thing you can do" in PF. (APG defines them solely as "magic tricks.") If you don't like that it's used that way, you are free to make your own game.


We already have a 2/3 Divine casting 3/4 BaB class. It's Inquisitor. Which is a derivative of Bard already...

Inquisitor is more of a... striker. This guy is meant as a frontliner instead, what with the heavy armor that can be powered up without spells. I'd like if he had some kind of swift-action self-healing though like the Paladin gets.

I agree that right now, they don't get enough to really fill that role. Certainly with the low HD and lack of ways to use their powers in melee - where they are expected to be - effectively, they can't. I would love for them to be able to burn spell energy (or channels) into self-healing/defense and still fight effectively.

[Renegade Paladin]

I just posted this to the Paizo board.
There's a glaring problem with the warpriest that hasn't been addressed yet, and that is - what does it do that inquisitor does not? The spellcasting is prepared rather than spontaneous and therefore more flexible, but if an inquisitor wants to go full-on beatstick with divine power and righteous might in his spells known, he does just as well as the warpriest with better skills and class features on top. Stack up a couple judgments and bane and you're rocking just as much attack bonus and damage or more without wanting Charisma as badly on top of it. Admittedly the inquisitor is sacrificing some of the class's utility/skillmonkey potential to do this, but it can be done and he'd still have more utility than the warpriest he's compared against.

There are some pretty simple fixes to this - adjusting the warpriest's spell list to get the combat buffs earlier would do it (though Sean already said you want to avoid this in the Hunter thread) or making warpriest levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats like the swashbuckler does for swashbuckler levels so the 'priest can get Weapon Specialization and company going for him. (His base attack bonus isn't an obstacle for this, since as written the feats that require fighter levels to qualify just require those levels, not the BAB that comes with them.) The latter solution both goes better with the design team's desire to not take up book space with more spell lists and serves to move the warpriest closer to "combat specialist" and away from "cleric lite," which it seems to me should be a design goal here.
And yes, I know I'm taking a slightly contrary position over there to the one I just took over here, but the objective is to make people think. :smalltongue: If anyone wants to expand on that and/or tell me why I'm wrong, feel free. I'll get back to it tomorrow; for now I have to sleep.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The key here is that when Raging, you can't use any abilities that require concentration, such as spellcasting.

Yes. Hence why I DON'T like Rage Song.

[avr]

I'm not sure that allowing characters to take feats in the weapon spec line is generally a buff. Maybe for a swashbuckler dual wielding light weapons with full BAB, but less so for a warpriest who is likely wielding a 2H weapon with medium BAB.

A better buff for the warpriest might be as simple as giving their sacred weapon/armor abilities a usable duration.

[Muggins]

I just posted this to the Paizo board.
And yes, I know I'm taking a slightly contrary position over there to the one I just took over here, but the objective is to make people think. :smalltongue: If anyone wants to expand on that and/or tell me why I'm wrong, feel free. I'll get back to it tomorrow; for now I have to sleep.
Actually, I was just about to make a post on that myself. One of my upcoming games was going to be ACG Playtest classes only, just to give them all a shot, but after seeing the Warpriest's specifics I'm not so confident about playing one. They can't do anything which a Paladin, Inquisitor or Cleric can do themselves, possibly better.

I was really excited about the ACG Playtest, but only the Brawler really stands out to me as unique (as far as hybrids go). The Swashbuckler seems interesting, even though it could've been made a grit-granting archetype for the Fighter or a feat-granting archetype for the Gunslinger.
The Investigator is trying its hardest to avoid stepping on the toes of the Vivisectionist Alchemist, and the arcanist (as already mentioned) is the "greatest hits" of wizard and sorcerer spellcasting.

Where's my Monk/Druid, or my Paladin/Rogue? Why can't I have an Inquisitor/Magus instead of a Wizard/Sorcerer, for MAXIMUM GISH?

[Dragonus45]

Yes. Hence why I DON'T like Rage Song.

Then don't accept the buff when he turns it on, it is an option.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'm not sure that allowing characters to take feats in the weapon spec line is generally a buff. Maybe for a swashbuckler dual wielding light weapons with full BAB, but less so for a warpriest who is likely wielding a 2H weapon with medium BAB.

A better buff for the warpriest might be as simple as giving their sacred weapon/armor abilities a usable duration.
The point is to do something to differentiate it from a beatstick inquisitor. Right now there's a whole lot of not much doing that. At least letting him use his bonus feats for fighter-only stuff (of which the Weapon Focus tree is not the only thing in Pathfinder) gives him a source of attack and damage bonuses as well as combat options that the existing 3/4 BAB six level divine caster with all the big cleric buffs doesn't have. (Although to be fair, some of those options are things witch hunter archetype inquisitors should have. :smalltongue:)

And the warpriest is only likely to be wielding a two-handed weapon if his deity's favored weapon is one, because his abilities only work with the favored weapon. :smallwink:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That IS an option. But I don't like the main focus of a class being objectively useless to many classes until 20th level.

[Dragonus45]

That IS an option. But I don't like the main focus of a class being objectively useless to many classes until 20th level.

The normal bonus a bard gives is already useless to a caster, this is just a different way of boosting the melee types.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Again, refer to Magus up top. Inquisitors and anything that can cast a spell that like to hit stuff is also affected.

[zimmerwald1915]

That IS an option. But I don't like the main focus of a class being objectively useless to many classes until 20th level.
Inspire Courage was already all but useless to characters that didn't make attacks, i.e., many spellcasters. Even they, however, could make use of the buff against fear effects. What makes Rage Song different is that it actually makes those characters worse in all situations if they accept the "buff".

[Raven777]

Sure, the Arcanist gets ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER!...

But the actual class features are bland to non existent. The class simply looks... booooooring. Like a callback to the 3.5 Sorc :'(

[zimmerwald1915]

Sure, the Arcanist gets ULTIMATE ARCANE POWER!...
:vaarsuvius: How will I achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/redxiv/oracle.gif By using the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign to trade your Wizard levels for levels in the Arcanist class that will appear in the Advanced Class Guide.
:vaarsuvius: :smallconfused:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Inspire Courage was already all but useless to characters that didn't make attacks, i.e., many spellcasters. Even they, however, could make use of the buff against fear effects. What makes Rage Song different is that it actually makes those characters worse in all situations if they accept the "buff".

Bards also did a whole bunch of different things with their performance, and there were abilities you could take to boost other stuff. Also, unconscious people don't have a choice but to accept it. Good for stabilizing, but you are automatically fatigued when you get up.

[Novawurmson]

Whyyyy did this have to come out just as I get a fever and am having a hard time focusing on things.

Brawler, swashbuckler, shaman, skald, bloodrager, and investigator all look fun. 6/10 ain't bad.

[Alleran]

I wonder how the Arcanist interacts with the Mythic ability of Rapid Preparation (it syncs with Perfect Preparation already). Since Rapid Preparation is similar to the Fast Study arcane discovery - Arcanists don't seem to be able to get the latter, but can get the former.

I like the idea of the Arcanist... but it does seem very potentially powerful in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it. Tier 1 to be sure. I also like the idea of the Slayer, but that's mostly because now I can be Altair and/or Ezio quite easily.

[Antariuk]

Please do not open the can of worms that is Mythic Rules... between all the OGL content from d20pfsrd, the crazy that is Mythic, and now the not-quite-tested bonkers we call ACG playtest, there lies madness. Not the good one, with Old Ones manifesting their eldritch powers and consuming your neighbor while you struggle with your spell progression, no. It'll be an inconspicuous and quiet madness, where you get lost in fractal possibilities of archetypes and SKR ranting about spell-like abilities in a FAQ no one can find anymore. Don't do that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Please do not open the can of worms that is Mythic Rules... between all the OGL content from d20pfsrd, the crazy that is Mythic, and now the not-quite-tested bonkers we call ACG playtest, there lies madness. Not the good one, with Old Ones manifesting their eldritch powers and consuming your neighbor while you struggle with your spell progression, no. It'll be an inconspicuous and quiet madness, where you get lost in fractal possibilities of archetypes and SKR ranting about spell-like abilities in a FAQ no one can find anymore. Don't do that.
The Old Ones aren't in Mythic Adventures or the Advanced Class Guide, silly. They're in Bestiary V!

[Dragonus45]

You know I would strangle a kitten to get that feat gaining ability that the brawler added to the main fighter. Also the more i read on the swashbuckler the more disappointed i feel. It was the one i was looking foreward to the most, but the way its abilities work out the class is pretty much locked into only ever using the rapier ever unless you want to re-spend a feat to get weapon finesse a second time to get dervish dance. The wording on a lot the stuff just makes my head hurt as well.

[avr]

The point is to do something to differentiate it from a beatstick inquisitor. Right now there's a whole lot of not much doing that. At least letting him use his bonus feats for fighter-only stuff (of which the Weapon Focus tree is not the only thing in Pathfinder) gives him a source of attack and damage bonuses as well as combat options that the existing 3/4 BAB six level divine caster with all the big cleric buffs doesn't have. (Although to be fair, some of those options are things witch hunter archetype inquisitors should have. :smalltongue:)

And the warpriest is only likely to be wielding a two-handed weapon if his deity's favored weapon is one, because his abilities only work with the favored weapon. :smallwink:
There's a very restricted list this'd apply to at present. Let's list them & see if there's anything particularly good or fitting.
Disruptive & related feats - For harassing casters with their backs to a wall and gishes. As you say, inquisitors should get these if anyone does. Not bad, not amazing.
Penetrating Strike - by the time this arrives you should have other means of dealing with DR.
Pin Down - yes, very nice actually. Not until level 11 of course.
Shield feats - even 2/3 casters should avoid losing a free hand to cast with.
Weapon Focus line - as stated.
Some so-so racial feats.

I don't know that this'd change the balance point or give them a separate role before level 11, and I don't like placing too much weight on that one feat.

And we should be understanding and sympathetic to warpriests whose deity likes daggers or similar, yes.

[Snowbluff]

But the actual class features are bland to non existent. The class simply looks... booooooring. Like a callback to the 3.5 Sorc :'(
To be fair, "class features" have never really been better or more fun than spells.


Inquisitor is more of a... striker. This guy is meant as a frontliner instead, what with the heavy armor that can be powered up without spells. I'd like if he had some kind of swift-action self-healing though like the Paladin gets.

I agree that right now, they don't get enough to really fill that role. Certainly with the low HD and lack of ways to use their powers in melee - where they are expected to be - effectively, they can't. I would love for them to be able to burn spell energy (or channels) into self-healing/defense and still fight effectively.
Yeah, if it were up to me, I would have had Inquisitor be Warpriest-type frontliner when it came out, and let Magus be a Bard archetype, so we didn't have so much chassis overlap.

Maybe a correctly made paladin would be cool... 2/3 on a weak-ish list, self healing, and full BaB... I really should get around to more homebrew. :smalltongue:

[Andvare]

If you don't like that it's used that way, you are free to make your own game.

That is about the most BS remark I have yet seen on this forum.
So people that disagree with you and/or Paizo should just go away?



I am disappointed by this release so far. Paizo, for all their faults, have released good material concerning new classes. The Alchemist, the Summoner, the Magus and so on, are all good, interesting, flavourful, and most importantly fun classes, even though the rules might be a it wonky at times.

This is just a mixture of Frankenstein classes*, and mostly using body parts from 3.5 classes.

(fortunately, it seems like only one has a brain from some Abby someone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH97lImrr0Q))

[Kaisos Erranon]

The most hilarious thing will be when they release these half-formed ideas without any real changes next August.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'm somewhat sad that they probably won't make custom class spell lists for the relevant classes. They don't really take up that much space if you're efficient about it, especially if they're primarily composed of already extant spells. The spell list for Beguilers or Duskblades from the PHB II come to mind (granted, they were very limited lists, but they were pretty condensed on the page).

[Baroncognito]

I'm not sure that allowing characters to take feats in the weapon spec line is generally a buff. Maybe for a swashbuckler dual wielding light weapons with full BAB

Since the Precise Strike ability is copied from the Duelist prestige class, a Swashbuckler will not be dual-wielding light weapons if she wants to get the precision damage.

Unfortunately, this means that while Swashbucklers have proficiency with bucklers, they can't actually use them. And they don't even get Canny Defense to make up for the loss of medium and heavy armour. Though, looking over the class, it appears that the character doesn't actually lose anything if they decide to get heavy armour proficiency and wear full plate.

They should definitely change precise strike to allow the use of a buckler.

[Squirrel_Dude]

For the most part, the classes are better than I expected in terms of their mechanics. They still seem kind of boring, though. Hopefully as the playtest moves along there will be some changes or I'll find some more things that I like about them.

Also, I'll say that I'm not surprised that the Warpriest is having trouble finding a niche. It's probably going to be the hardest class to make because it has 3, arguably 5, classes that can steal the divine-powered beatstick thing away from it.

[Craft (Cheese)]

To be fair, "class features" have never really been better or more fun than spells.

Yeah, but when two classes share a spell list there really is not much else to differentiate them in feel: Look what Bloodlines did for the PF Sorcerer. I honestly think the only reason this class was approved to be put in the playtest at all is because someone at Paizo has a wizard boner and wanted a Mary Sue class.

[avr]

Since the Precise Strike ability is copied from the Duelist prestige class, a Swashbuckler will not be dual-wielding light weapons if she wants to get the precision damage.

Unfortunately, this means that while Swashbucklers have proficiency with bucklers, they can't actually use them. And they don't even get Canny Defense to make up for the loss of medium and heavy armour. Though, looking over the class, it appears that the character doesn't actually lose anything if they decide to get heavy armour proficiency and wear full plate.

They should definitely change precise strike to allow the use of a buckler.
Point. It's kind of weird that this makes the best weapons for a swashbuckler things like a trident, heavy pick or maybe a mounted lance.

But the point I was trying to make was that weapon spec was not a particularly useful feat for a warpriest.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, but when two classes share a spell list there really is not much else to differentiate them in feel: Look what Bloodlines did for the PF Sorcerer. Yeah, it failed to differentiate them. :smalltongue:


I honestly think the only reason this class was approved to be put in the playtest at all is because someone at Paizo has a wizard boner and wanted a Mary Sue class.

Sounds about right. I mean, it "fixes" spontaneous casting the same way spirit shaman did. Which is a really powerful option for the most powerful spell list in the game.

This reminds me of Paragon Surge.

[Psyren]

That is about the most BS remark I have yet seen on this forum.
So people that disagree with you and/or Paizo should just go away?

They defined a game term in their game and you disagree. If you refuse to accept their definition, what other course of action is available to you?


I'm somewhat sad that they probably won't make custom class spell lists for the relevant classes. They don't really take up that much space if you're efficient about it, especially if they're primarily composed of already extant spells. The spell list for Beguilers or Duskblades from the PHB II come to mind (granted, they were very limited lists, but they were pretty condensed on the page).

There's a balance issue too, thanks to things like Expanded Arcana and Mystic Past Life. So then they'd have to scrutinize every level-shifted choice for reasonableness; I'm guessing based on previous dev comments that they're a bit gun-shy thanks to how the Summoner turned out.

[Snowbluff]

They defined a game term in their game and you disagree. If you refuse to accept their definition, what other course of action is available to you? I think Complain, play a different system, and submit homebrew, are all equally valid options that are not mutually exclusive.

More importantly...

I'm guessing based on previous dev comments that they're a bit gun-shy thanks to how the Summoner turned out.
It amuses me that the class that is not only the best thing to come out of PF is the same one that defies the overall direction of the game and have neutered the developer's production ability. Legitimately no malice intended, the summoner is just a really funny point. It sounds like it caused more damage than it should have. :smalltongue:

[Craft (Cheese)]

There's a balance issue too, thanks to things like Expanded Arcana and Mystic Past Life. So then they'd have to scrutinize every level-shifted choice for reasonableness; I'm guessing based on previous dev comments that they're a bit gun-shy thanks to how the Summoner turned out.

Is there any DM that actually allows Mystic Past Life to give early access to spells? You'd think it'd be better to just patch the early-access abilities instead of blandifying every spellcaster class in the ACG.

Reading the Arcanist thread over at the Paizo boards is giving me an aneurism. "Arcanist is totally balanced because a it's worse than both wizards and sorcerers at using blast spells." What!? Also lots of defense of the "flavor" of the class over there. BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY FLAVOR!!!

[Corlindale]

The Arcanist was the one I was most excited about, being a huge fan of arcane casting. I like its preparation-system (and don't really think it's overpowered compared to sorcerors and wizards), but I agree that the rest of the class seems a little bland.

I would have liked some more bold experimentation. Perhaps cap it at 6th level casting (still sorc/wis) but give it significantly boosted spells/day to compensate. Full bloodline progression and full arcane school progression as well. Various abilities to use their low-level spells in interesting ways, or add metamagic more easily. Sort of like the Ultimate Magus in 3.5, which I always thought looked really cool. So in exchange for losing high level spells they'd get a ton of class features and powers to use the spells they do get in interesting ways.

The arcanist just seems a little lazy, design-wise.

I like the fluff of the bloodrager, but I guess I'd have preferred it to be more casting-focused. 3/4 BAB and 6 spell levels would have been nicer, in my opinion. And perhaps some ability to combine spells with attacks in a bloodrage (similar to the magus, but of course not the same abilities). I do love the Arcane bloodline's ability to activate magical buffs when entering rage - that's the kind of thing I'd have liked to see more of.

The Skald is surprisingly cool. With the huge selection of rage powers available Rage Song is essentially "customize-your-bardic-performance". Only huge drawback is that its usefulness depend heavily on party composition - even more so than a regular Bard's.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Reading the Arcanist thread over at the Paizo boards is giving me an aneurism. "Arcanist is totally balanced because a it's worse than both wizards and sorcerers at using blast spells." What!? Also lots of defense of the "flavor" of the class over there. BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY FLAVOR!!!1. Don't go to the Paizo forums expecting a discussion of balance in line with what you'll see here, or forums that are of similar mindset. It's not going to happen. Not sure, judging by the fact that Pickford can draw everyone around here (including me) offsides in some way or another, if that's a good or bad thing.

2. If you claim about that claim existing is true, it's kind of amazing. It's up there with the tier list I saw where Oracles were tier 3, and Maguses were tier 2 because of damage. It's not only wrongheaded, it's probably straight up wrong. Why would the Arcanist be worst at blasting than the wizard?

[Yora]

I took a quick look over it, and I am not interested. The Hunter has even more spells than a ranger and the Shaman takes the elements of witches and oracles that I don't care for.

I don't see this book becomming relevant in the long run.

[Baroncognito]

I took a quick look over it, and I am not interested. The Hunter has even more spells than a ranger and the Shaman takes the elements of witches and oracles that I don't care for.

I don't see this book becomming relevant in the long run.

The hunter should have more spells than a ranger. It's a Ranger/Druid hybrid. If it had fewer spells, something would have gone horribly wrong.

The Ranger/Rogue hybrid has fewer spells than the ranger, and that makes sense. Have you looked at the Slayer?

That said, I think that some of these hybrids would be better if they used more types of Base Attack Bonus, like 4/5ths or 9/10ths progression.

What if Arcanist had an even slower BAB progression than Wizards? 1/5th? Sure, you can cast really flexibly, but don't pick any spells that require a to-hit roll. No, there are too many spells that don't require a to-hit roll.

[Craft (Cheese)]

2. If you claim about that claim existing is true, it's kind of amazing. It's up there with the tier list I saw where Oracles were tier 3, and Maguses were tier 2 because of damage. It's not only wrongheaded, it's probably straight up wrong. Why would the Arcanist be worst at blasting than the wizard?

Not sure if the paizo boards allow linking to individual posts, but it's Mikey Noodlez's "analysis" on page 3 of the thread here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj5&page=3?Arcanist-Discussion). Quoting the relevant portion:


Now, if you take this, and compare an Arcanist to, say the “Blaster” Wizard (Admixture Focused with a level dip into Cross-blooded Sorcerer – Orc/Draconic Bloodline) there is no comparison to the damage output, or versatility (with admixture) to blast spells.
Besides, how is Blood Focus as good as (or better than) almost ANY of the Wizard Specialist school powers? Insane initiative, free short range teleporting, extra damage (or switching elements), the bonus vs spells from void school, etc., etc., are all better (or generally more useful) than a +1 to Save DC and CL (limited uses per day I might add, a 10th level Arcanist only has 8, 7 if they don’t want to be fatigued, to be split between adding to CL & Save DCs or using a bloodline ability).

As for Sorcerer Bloodlines, with the way Blood Focus works, for the most part there are useless for an Arcanist, or at best situational, but personally I’d much rather be spending my blood focus points on the +1 to CL & DCs.

The Arcanist is no more or less versatile or powerful than a Sorcerer or Wizard, just different.

The rest of his post is just a bunch of numbers showing that the Arcanist doesn't get as many spells per day as the sorcerer, or as many different spells available to them at once as a specialist wizard. As if this is actually the point of contention.

[TheIronGolem]

Some initial thoughts from skimming:

Swashbuckler: Arglebargle. Paizo continues the bizarre idea it inherited from WOTC that "swashbuckler" has to mean "piercing weapons only". Cutlasses, scimitars, sabers? Nope, never heard of 'em! Swashbucklers only know how to jab! Because they used rapiers in The Princess Bride, the only swashbuckling movie ever made!

Here's hoping we at least get an archetype that allows slashing weapons.

Yeah, yeah, Dervish Dance. I shouldn't have to pay a feat tax just to use what is essentially a Slashing-flavored rapier, though.

Brawler: I want to love you. You are punchy like monk, and your feats are floaty like fun balloon.

But your capstone sucks. Standard action for one attack with a free trip-and-push would make a decent feat for a mid-level beatstick, but waiting twenty levels for it is the RPG equivalent of getting socks for Christmas. That "capstone", and also Knockout, should both come online way earlier and have better things in place at the upper levels.

Arcanist: Be more boring. Go on, I dare you.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Here's what I'd do with the Arcanist:

- Change the spells prepared per day progression to match the Spirit Shaman.

- Make the fluff something more interesting than "Sorcerer/Wizard hybrid." I had the idea of a sorcerer who switches out what spells they can cast (and learns new ones) by performing freaky magical experiments on themselves. I'm sure a talented writer (that is, not me) could make something interesting out of that.

- Ditch blood focus. Add some new mechanic instead of just aping off the Sorcerer's.

[Muggins]

In the case of the Arcanist, at least there's this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qdj5&page=3?Arcanist-Discussion#132).

I think a lot of the calls of "overpowered" will play out to be untrue in actual play examples, but I will gladly wait to see those come in (thanks thought to the folks who did some build analysis, we did that work weeks ago when building the class, but at least I dont have to repost it).
We need a game of core and APG casters, stat. :smallwink:

[Rblock]

There's a balance issue too, thanks to things like Expanded Arcana and Mystic Past Life. So then they'd have to scrutinize every level-shifted choice for reasonableness; I'm guessing based on previous dev comments that they're a bit gun-shy thanks to how the Summoner turned out.

The issue with the summoner is instead of giving somewhat useful ones early, they gave you the best of the best early. Giving the Summoner haste a level before the wizard... plus more times per day is.... questionable at best. Plus, they get get Black Tentacles only a level after, as well.

The Brawler looks interesting, if you do a combat expertise build and pick up the Crane Style Feat line. Also you'd be able to do multiple maneuvers based on the situation due to Martial Maneuvers. Flurrying with a shield out is also very nice.

[Vanitas]

I actually liked the Arcanist.

My favorites were Brawler, Swashbuckler, Slayer and Bloodrager, though.

Didn't really care about the rest. The Hunter really disappointed me.

SPECIALLY Bloodrager, surprisingly. One of the classes I least cared about when they announced it, but the one that really grabbed my attention when I saw it.

[Baroncognito]

My current character probably would have been a bloodrager if the class had existed.

[Spore]

Am I overlooking something or doesn't a class for arcane/divine progression exist? Do Paizo devs think the Mystic Theurge is fine?

[Antariuk]

Am I overlooking something or doesn't a class for arcane/divine progression exist? Do Paizo devs think the Mystic Theurge is fine?

Since this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060616a) happened, I'm pretty sure they do.

[Vanitas]

Since this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060616a) happened, I'm pretty sure they do.

Isn't that a different company, though?

[Lord_Gareth]

Just finished reading the Arcanist thread. My faith in humanity is hurting.

Anyone want to step up and smack down the folks that are demanding answers that aren't just 'theorycraft'? Because those people are annoying me.

[Vanitas]

Just finished reading the Arcanist thread. My faith in humanity is hurting.

Anyone want to step up and smack down the folks that are demanding answers that aren't just 'theorycraft'? Because those people are annoying me.

So... people that disagree with you should be physically abused. Now you're hurting my faith in humanity. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

I don't think he implied physical harm, Vanitas. A 'smackdown' would be a successfully brutal litigation... that's not helping, is it?:smalltongue:

[Craft (Cheese)]

Just finished reading the Arcanist thread. My faith in humanity is hurting.

Anyone want to step up and smack down the folks that are demanding answers that aren't just 'theorycraft'? Because those people are annoying me.

Somehow I don't think getting in a debate with those folks will lead to anything productive.

[3WhiteFox3]

Just finished reading the Arcanist thread. My faith in humanity is hurting.

Anyone want to step up and smack down the folks that are demanding answers that aren't just 'theorycraft'? Because those people are annoying me.

The playtest was just released yesterday! How can anyone expect anything that's not 'theorycraft'? Oh, that's right, because they are looking for anything that legitimizes their point of view. They'll likely then dismiss any actual evidence from play that contradicts them and only accept that evidence which fits their view.

(Not an attack at the paizo boards specifically, but more an observation of confirmation bias)

[Tulya]

I don't see the Arcanist coming close to obsoleting Wizard. Except for the first two and last two levels, Wizards will tend to either have:
2-4 slots of a spell level that Arcanists don't even have to prepare spells known in.
3-5 slots of a spell level that Arcanists can only prepare one spell in.

What the Wizard loses out in immediate flexibility from spontaneous casting and spontaneous metamagic, they'll tend to make up in terms of flexibility in their highest spell levels, where they either have flat-out more spell options, lowest spell levels, where the limited direct in-combat usage presents more room for preparing specialized utility spells, and their capacity to reserve slots for later.

Even if the Arcanist retains the capability to reserve prepared spell slots, their more limited spells known - especially of the higher levels - makes that significantly more painful.
That is, on their best levels, where they're not behind Wizards in their highest spell level, they have all of 1 spell known of the highest level, and 2 spells known of the next highest level. Reserving a prepared spell slot of the highest level leaves them with nothing but metamagiced spells to cast from those slots, while reserving a prepared spell slot of the next highest level leaves them with all of one spell to cast other than metamagiced spells.

Don't get me wrong - metamagic adds a great amount of flexibility - but it's not the same as the expanded capabilities that higher spell levels tend to offer.

As to the Sorcerer... The Sorcerer is in a really weird place caused by strange design decisions, like the Human favored class option, Paragon Surge, False Priest archetype, and such. I don't think you can really compare the classes straight up because of how differently people look at what a Sorcerer's capabilities should be considered to be.


My impression is that all three classes will retain at least some relevant niches, but the Arcanist will probably be the easiest to play out of the box with the least optimization.

[Suddo]

... but he at least had the decency to deny them 9th level spells.

I'm late to the party on this disucsussion but this is all they really need to do to screw with the class. Don't give it 9th level spells (maybe not 8th too). I mean I love the flavor or Ultimate Magus (?) from Complete Arcane and guess what it does DENY 9th level spells and give limited 8th.

[Vanitas]

I'm late to the party on this disucsussion but this is all they really need to do to screw with the class. Don't give it 9th level spells (maybe not 8th too). I mean I love the flavor or Ultimate Magus (?) from Complete Arcane and guess what it does DENY 9th level spells and give limited 8th.

As if. Plenty of Ultimate Magus builds get double 9s.

[Suddo]

As if. Plenty of Ultimate Magus builds get double 9s.

Yes but not if you just go vanilla Wiz X/ Sorc Y / UM 10. You can push it to get double 9s but still.

Edit: Am I the only one thinking of making a Butterfly Sting Swashbuckler that simply can't get hit due to Parry (and maybe Crane Stance). Like this just seems awesome.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Slayer I like, with the ruling that they have d10 for hit dice. Need more talents though; only one can affect sneak attack, despite the text for multiple talents not stacking. They should get a list of rogue talents they can poach from.

Also, I am disappointed that there are no ways to finagle the Investigator to get access to Master Chymist.

[MukkTB]

I am a bit skeptical that the Arcanist is better than the Wizard. Half the time it's one spell level behind the Wizard. As read it doesn't seem to get the Sorcerer's bloodline Arcana, which are the things in PF that really make Sorcerer spellcasting shine. So while it's tier 1 to the Sorcerer's tier 2 the Sorcerer still has something unique to offer, at least as a dip.

I'm not saying the Arcanist isn't equal to or better than the Wizard or Sorc. I'm just saying that anyone who wants me to believe its better will have to walk me through the fine points so I understand. To me, it just looks like another really powerful arcane caster.

There are a number of classes I feel good about because they fit tropes better than anything previously did. The Swashbuckler, Investigator, and Slayer seem ready to really help someone realize their character concept. The Skald has some good flavor to it and the Brawler looks really nice.

I'm not entirely sold on the Warpriest, Hunter, or Shaman. Those classes will take a lot of reading to decide if there is anything in there I can work with.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I had a look at the shaman, and I REALLY like the spirits. To me, it feels like a shaman.

[Snowbluff]

There's no question arcanist is strictly better.


Yes but not if you just go vanilla Wiz X/ Sorc Y / UM 10. You can push it to get double 9s but still. That's a ridiculous assumption.


Edit: Am I the only one thinking of making a Butterfly Sting Swashbuckler that simply can't get hit due to Parry (and maybe Crane Stance). Like this just seems awesome.
Lack of foresight, mostly. :smallsigh:

[MukkTB]

There's no question arcanist is strictly better.

If that is so can someone go through and explain why? Why Wizard progression being half a spell level ahead doesn't matter enough and so forth.

[Suddo]

That's a ridiculous assumption.
It really isn't I'm talking about a UM build not a build that includes UM. UM 10 kind of blows but it is still cool in my opinion. I think the class would be much better being 8th level spells capped and just having a silly number of spells. Then again with the design they are taking with this book that may be too complex (especially if you make them seperate spell pools).


Lack of foresight, mostly. :smallsigh:
I think I might roll it up and bring it to PFS. Butterfly Sting is the more broken half of this equation but still.

[Snowbluff]

It really isn't I'm talking about a UM build not a build that includes UM. UM 10 kind of blows but it is still cool in my opinion. I think the class would be much better being 8th level spells capped and just having a silly number of spells. Then again with the design they are taking with this book that may be too complex (especially if you make them seperate spell pools). UM is good if only because it can be used to lower MM costs. It's one of the 2 good theurges, the other being Arcane Hierophant. Sorcerer isn't the only other option for it. Nar Demonbinder and Sublime Chord are usually what people do for double 9s. After that, it's easily cheesed to double progress wizard.




I think I might roll it up and bring it to PFS. Butterfly Sting is the more broken half of this equation but still.

I want to know how that works out. Keep me posted. :smallwink:

[Eldonauran]

:smallconfused:

I ... like the Hunter. I really like it. I do agree that the Animal Focus duration needs to be longer. I'd go as far to say that 10min per level is adequate and I will be using that as a houserule when I see it run.

Though, I am surprised that there is no Alchemist/Sorcerer hybrid. I would have preferred one of these than an Arcanist. The Investigator is neat but I would have been ecstatic for an Alchemist/Sorcerer hybrid.

[subject42]

I ... like the Hunter. I really like it. I do agree that the Animal Focus duration needs to be longer. I'd go as far to say that 10min per level is adequate and I will be using that as a houserule when I see it run.

I think I would appreciate it more if the bonuses were untyped, inherent, or insight bonuses, rather than enhancement bonuses. A barbarian can stack up his strength nicely, but this class can't.