Int to grapple

[bekeleven]

I've seen a few people claim online that either 1 or 3 levels in factotum can be used to get into the grapple checks.

Here's the issue: level 1 in factotum allows a player to spend inspiration to improve an "attack roll, damage roll, or saving throw". Level 3 gives int as a bonus to "strength checks, dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on strength or dexterity".

I posit that grapple checks are neither attack rolls nor strength checks. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)'s the SRD on grappling:


Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier


It's not an attack roll give its description, and it's not an ability check given this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#abilityChecks).

Is there any other reason I would be wrong?

On a related note: Is there any way to get int to grapple? X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) only has a listing for Charisma to grapple (sorted under "skills" for whatever reason).

[relytdan]

3.5 players handbook page 155 ( the SRD also has this information )
GRAPPLE
Grapple Checks
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent.
A grapple check is like a melee attack roll.

Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows:
Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small –4, Tiny –8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16.
Use this number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making an attack roll.

So it in fact uses the strength modifier, and anything that could allow you to use another ability modifier in it's place could in theory be used.

[Eldonauran]

A grapple check is like a melee attack roll.
When used in this way, 'like' means 'similar to' not 'the same as'.


So it in fact uses the strength modifier, and anything that could allow you to use another ability modifier in it's place could in theory be used.

Just because something uses your strength modifier to augment a dice roll does not make it equal to a strength check. Grapple is not a skill check that is strength or dexterity based.

You CAN NOT use inspiration to augment grapple checks. Loose reading and looser interpretations may lead to a maybe, but not a plain reading.

[The Grue]

I don't think it's too loose an interpretation of the rules to say that a Grapple check constitutes an attack role for the purposes spending Insipiration. It may not be the letter of the rules, but it seems within the spirit.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't think it's too loose an interpretation of the rules to say that a Grapple check constitutes an attack role for the purposes spending Insipiration. It may not be the letter of the rules, but it seems within the spirit.

I agree with this. It seems in line with Factotum abilities, and should be cool as long as you aren't trying to abuse it.

[Eldonauran]

I agree with this. It seems in line with Factotum abilities, and should be cool as long as you aren't trying to abuse it.

I would potentially allow it as well. I was just trying to point out the RAW. Grappling is not an attack roll, though it is similar.

[relytdan]

I would potentially allow it as well. I was just trying to point out the RAW. Grappling is not an attack roll, though it is similar.

while not explicitly an attack roll to determine if you grapple or not it uses a number that is determined. It is this value, that for Inspiration could allow it's use in place of ...

it could in theory be used - I will grant by pure RAW that grapple does not explicitly say, but I would dare say most DM's run it this way.

[The Grue]

...I will grant by pure RAW that grapple does not explicitly say, but I would dare say most DM's run it this way.

Although to be fair, "pure RAW" says a lot of funny things like Rockburst being able to destroy planets(to say nothing of IHS), so a "pure RAW reading" of a given rule is perhaps not a universal standard we want to apply. ;)

[Psyren]

FWIW, Grapple is an attack roll in PF. Whether that says anything about 3.5's intent or amounts to a hill of beans is up to you.