Does the playground count nonability scores for point-by?

[ddude987]

Title basically says everything. In a game I'm in, one player has a nonability score (yay necropolitan) and while not overpowering, the functionally higher point-by is noticeable. Any houserules people have made on this and if so justification?

[OldTrees1]

Yes I count nonabilities for point buy. Mainly because nonabilities always are attached to some drawback or are not always nonabilities (Ghosts have a Str score on the Ethereal plane).

[TuggyNE]

There was a thread on this a while back, and generally the consensus was if there's only one it doesn't matter enough to be a big deal. If you end up with Con -, Str -, and Dex - that might be more significant though.

[yougi]

I've had the same situation in a game we just started, and gave him 5/6th of the allowed point buy (i.e. 29 instead of 34).

[Yuki Akuma]

Personally I'd just charge him for a 10 in that ability score and call it good. Because mechanically a nonability might as well be a 10 with some extra immunities tacked on.

[nedz]

I've had the same situation in a game we just started, and gave him 5/6th of the allowed point buy (i.e. 29 instead of 34).


Personally I'd just charge him for a 10 in that ability score and call it good. Because mechanically a nonability might as well be a 10 with some extra immunities tacked on.

I'd be tempted to go with either of these, but note:

yougi's suggestions costs him 5 points, though this may vary depending upon the actual point buy in use
Yuki's suggestions costs him 2 points


So the question is:
What is the '—' actually worth in terms of points ?
This will depend upon the specifics of the build. If you can calibrate this then you can assign an actual point cost.

[Yuki Akuma]

Most things with nonabilities will also have racial hit dice or level adjustment, as a note. The immunities granted by having nonabilities should be factored into their RHD/LA.

[ddude987]

Well, the nonability might be "factored into LA/RHD" but in reality if you buy the LA off and catch back up to the rest of the party, you just have a larger effective point by. I suppose the 5/6 of the point by makes sense, but that assumes all skills are equal, which isn't exactly true. In the case of necropolitan and a lack of a Con score, do you think its fair to charge 6 points (the amount to get a 14 in Con, which seems to be average)? Or perhaps the amount of points to make the Con bonus + hitdie equal to a d12 hit die, but then that runs into issues with multiclassing.

[OldTrees1]

So the question is:
What is the '—' actually worth in terms of points ?
This will depend upon the specifics of the build. If you can calibrate this then you can assign an actual point cost.


Strength
Any creature that can physically manipulate other objects has at least 1 point of Strength. A creature with no Strength score can’t exert force, usually because it has no physical body or because it doesn’t move. The creature automatically fails Strength checks. If the creature can attack, it applies its Dexterity modifier to its base attack bonus instead of a Strength modifier.

Dexterity
Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks.

Constitution
Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).

Intelligence
Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

Charisma
Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma. Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

Str of — is a free Weapon Finesse at a terrible cost (cannot exert force, auto fails Str checks) with a possible(not guarenteed) boon of not having a physical body
Value: 0 or less

Dex of — gets Int to Initiative instead of Dex, fails Ref saves and Dex checks, and cannot move.
Value: less than 0

Con of — gets Immunity to Fort saves except for those that affect objects, fails Con checks, no Con modifier to Fort or HP.
Value: more than 0

Int, Wis and Cha of — = not a PC
Value: N/A

While the immunities of Con — are nice, but when they are bypassed it is a weakness. Also Con — is not the Undead type(d12 HD is not a benefit of Con —).

[Eldonauran]

I don't allow my players to abuse the point buy system when a non-ability comes into play. You spend all your points on all of the six scores and if I think you are dumping Con because you are making an undead, I'll deduct available points based on the level of the infraction.

In short, don't try to game the system. If you are a martial character and have less than 12 Con, you better have a very good reason.

[OldTrees1]

I don't allow my players to abuse the point buy system when a non-ability comes into play. You spend all your points on all of the six scores and if I think you are dumping Con because you are making an undead, I'll deduct available points based on the level of the infraction.

In short, don't try to game the system. If you are a martial character and have less than 12 Con, you better have a very good reason.

Is this about the non-ability (Constructs and Undead, remove Con penalty to hp) or is this about the Undead Type (convert HD to d12s)?

[Eldonauran]

Is this about the non-ability (Constructs and Undead, remove Con penalty to hp) or is this about the Undead Type (convert HD to d12s)?

The former, though only racial HD gets converted to d12s. If a player wants to play a martial character with 8 Con with the intent of becoming undead later, I usually allow it, provided the character survive the experience. Starting play as undead with 8 Con (now a non-ability), that's not going to fly with me.

[OldTrees1]

The former, though only racial HD gets converted to d12s. If a player wants to play a martial character with 8 Con with the intent of becoming undead later, I usually allow it, provided the character survive the experience. Starting play as undead with 8 Con (now a non-ability), that's not going to fly with me.

So if they started as a Con - Construct (formerly Con 10) you would not penalize them?

Sidenote: Undead HD conversion changes from template to template. Some are only racial HD, some are only previous HD and some are all HD past and future.

[Angelalex242]

Well, one time, I ran a game where everyone was a vampire. (Since everyone had the same template, the fact I gave them 34 point buys and let them ignore con entirely averaged out among the party.)

The all Vampire team still had to be pretty smart to survive, though. Taking on ECL 13 monsters with 5 HD of class levels gets...interesting.

[holywhippet]

Did the PC start at a lower level than the others players? The rules for necropolitans state that becoming one makes you lose a level. Given the circumstances I'd be tempted to apply it to the PC.

[Slipperychicken]

The rules for necropolitans state that becoming one makes you lose a level.

Doesn't the ritual only cost 1,000xp?

[ddude987]

Well yeah they start out a lower level, but because they are a lower level they get more xp and therefore catch up to the party.

[holywhippet]

Doesn't the ritual only cost 1,000xp?

That as well. The ritual of crucimigration, once completed makes the PC lose a level as thought raise dead had just been cast on them (if they are level 1 they just immediately get annihilated). They then lose another 1000 XP, if that causes them to lose another level then so be it. If they can't pay the 1000 XP cost they are likewise destroyed.

[Eldonauran]

So if they started as a Con - Construct (formerly Con 10) you would not penalize them?
I did not say that. The same concept applies as with the undead, or any non-ability containing race. As for the construct specifically, I wouldn't allow play since the character doesn't start as a living character and thus can't spend points on a score that never existed. Should the character become a construct later, I already have a system set up.


Sidenote: Undead HD conversion changes from template to template. Some are only racial HD, some are only previous HD and some are all HD past and future.

Indeed. Exceptions abound for just about anything. I'm of the mind to disallow recalculating HP except via a Constitution change.

[LordBlades]

Personally, I feel that if a PC has no need for a given score he should be allowed to dump it. All non-abilities carry with them drawbacks that might become significant at some point or another.

Think of it like this: would you penalize a full caster for dumping Str? Or a druid for dumping Str and Dex? If not, why make a difference for a necropolitan dumping Con?

[Slipperychicken]

Think of it like this: would you penalize a full caster for dumping Str?

That already gives him a pretty big weakness in the form of a hilariously-low grapple modifier. Besides, someone could strength-damage him into helplessness.

[LordBlades]

That already gives him a pretty big weakness in the form of a hilariously-low grapple modifier. Besides, someone could strength-damage him into helplessness.

Anklet of Translocation and Heart of Water are really, really easy to get. Even Dimension Door works.

The downsides of dumping Str:

-You have a low grapple mod (see above and also being medium and having caster BAB vs. a dedicated grappler, I doubt even the 5 points between 8 str and 18 Str. end up making any difference)
-You have a low carrying capacity (99% solved by Handy Haversack or the like)
-You can be Str drained more easily (legitimate concern)

The downsides of being a necropolitan and dumping con:
-you are undead (possible RP issue)
-You can be turned (legitimate concern)
-You have a really low fort save (mostly taken care of by immunities, but when you really need to make that fort save, it sucks)
-at higher level, a character with con and con boosting items can easily get more HP than you do (even going from d4+con to more than d12 only takes the equlvalent of 20 Con)

I really think the downsides of necropolitan come up more often than the downsides of 8 Str

[HaikenEdge]

I generally would never penalize a PC for dumping Constitution because they're going to go undead, so long as becoming undead because of their poor Constitution was built into their character's story; why should a player whose character chose to become undead because they were of poor health while alive be penalized for that?

Basically, I expect the player to build their character in life, then apply the undead template afterwards; that is to say, I'm less likely to allow a player building a necropolitan fighter to dump their Con score, because a character with a low Con score wouldn't be able to make it through the training to become a first level fighter in the first place.

[OldTrees1]

That already gives him a pretty big weakness in the form of a hilariously-low grapple modifier. Besides, someone could strength-damage him into helplessness.

Yet a Wizard with a Str - would automatically fail grapple checks instead.
Nonabilities are both boons and curses. Benefit and weakness.

[Zanos]

That already gives him a pretty big weakness in the form of a hilariously-low grapple modifier. Besides, someone could strength-damage him into helplessness.
A wizard's grapple modifier is already bad with 10 str. Against even weaker bruiser type monsters, their chances of success are so close to 0 that dumping str to 8 or 6 with racial penalties hardly matters.

[LordBlades]

Basically, I expect the player to build their character in life, then apply the undead template afterwards; that is to say, I'm less likely to allow a player building a necropolitan fighter to dump their Con score, because a character with a low Con score wouldn't be able to make it through the training to become a first level fighter in the first place.

Assuming Fighter isn't reserved for PCs and elite array NPCs, this means average dudes (the kind with 10 in all stats) can also do it. The difference between 8 and 10 isn't that great IMO to say a guy with 8 con wouldn't make it through the same training a guy with 10 con does, especially since races with con penalties would have 8 con fighters.

Also, come to think about it, there are IC reasons for 8 con guys to want to become fighters. If you've got 8 con but still need to fight for your life regularly, archery is a decent choice, especially if you lack the mental scores for significant casting, and fighters make decent archers.

alternately, what path would you see a high str, low con, average everything else guy taking?

[Coidzor]

I can't remember if it's a houserule or not, since it's been so long since I've actually looked at the rules for point buy, but the main thing is that they wouldn't be able to get 2 points by dumping it from 8 to 6. Well, actually, that's the only thing, really.

[OldTrees1]

I can't remember if it's a houserule or not, since it's been so long since I've actually looked at the rules for point buy, but the main thing is that they wouldn't be able to get 2 points by dumping it from 8 to 6. Well, actually, that's the only thing, really.

Reducing a stat from 8 to 6 to get more points in a houserule. The closest you can get is the Pathetic Flaw

[HaikenEdge]

Assuming Fighter isn't reserved for PCs and elite array NPCs, this means average dudes (the kind with 10 in all stats) can also do it. The difference between 8 and 10 isn't that great IMO to say a guy with 8 con wouldn't make it through the same training a guy with 10 con does, especially since races with con penalties would have 8 con fighters.

Also, come to think about it, there are IC reasons for 8 con guys to want to become fighters. If you've got 8 con but still need to fight for your life regularly, archery is a decent choice, especially if you lack the mental scores for significant casting, and fighters make decent archers.

alternately, what path would you see a high str, low con, average everything else guy taking?

That really depends on how low their Con gets. To me, 8 Con isn't Con getting dumped, as much as just being lower than average; it's when you combine it with a race that also has a Con penalty, say Elf or Goblin, that I consider it dumping Constitution, and a character with 6 con isn't going to be a fighter, because their character wouldn't be able to handle rigors of training.

If I had a player who point bought their way into a high Str, low Con (Con 6, given there aren't any -4 Con or higher races with +0 LA I can think of off the top of my head), average everything else character, I'd recommend they go with a straight Barbarian; rage would bump their Constitution back up to 10, at least during the duration of the rage. If they rolled that character (which would never happen when I DM, since I only use point buy when DMing), then that'd be a different story, and I'd let them go however they like, but with point buy, the assumption is that the character will be going for something they they'd be reasonably suited for.

Regarding PCs/NPCs, generally NPCs are Warriors (the NPC class), unless they have a reason to be Fighters; getting that extra feat at 1st level represents a level of dedicated training that separates the Fighters from the Warriors.

[LordBlades]

That really depends on how low their Con gets. To me, 8 Con isn't Con getting dumped, as much as just being lower than average; it's when you combine it with a race that also has a Con penalty, say Elf or Goblin, that I consider it dumping Constitution, and a character with 6 con isn't going to be a fighter, because their character wouldn't be able to handle rigors of training.

Well, 8 con is as low as you can dump con in PB (I use exclusively PB). For a race with a penatly to con, 6 con is just as much below average for that race as 8 con is for humans. Holding goblins with 6 vs 8con to a different standard than humans with 8 vs 10 con is a bit weird.


with point buy, the assumption is that the character will be going for something they they'd be reasonably suited for.

Regarding PCs/NPCs, generally NPCs are Warriors (the NPC class), unless they have a reason to be Fighters; getting that extra feat at 1st level represents a level of dedicated training that separates the Fighters from the Warriors.

Why? Why can't the player imagine a character that, for some reason goes for something he's ill-suited for. It's not like it's unheard for children to be pushed into following family tradition in a certain field, whether they have any talent for that field or not.

One of my favorite chars was a guy who became a wizard against his wishes and without showing much promise in that field (14 int on a 32 PB) just to follow the family tradition (it was Dragonlance, where wizardry is pretty dangerous business). Ended up being a pretty awesome gish.

[HaikenEdge]

Well, 8 con is as low as you can dump con in PB (I use exclusively PB). For a race with a penatly to con, 6 con is just as much below average for that race as 8 con is for humans. Holding goblins with 6 vs 8con to a different standard than humans with 8 vs 10 con is a bit weird.
To be fair, the favored class for Goblin is rogue, so that's where they're going to be headed in general; a goblin who picks Fighter is likely not going to be the average goblin, because the average goblin will be headed for Rogue. At least that's how I interpret the favored class thing, aside from multiclassing XP penalties.




Why? Why can't the player imagine a character that, for some reason goes for something he's ill-suited for. It's not like it's unheard for children to be pushed into following family tradition in a certain field, whether they have any talent for that field or not.

One of my favorite chars was a guy who became a wizard against his wishes and without showing much promise in that field (14 int on a 32 PB) just to follow the family tradition (it was Dragonlance, where wizardry is pretty dangerous business). Ended up being a pretty awesome gish.

I'd allow it, because it'd be in their backstory. I guess I should have been more clear; if a character's backstory would allow it, then I'd generally allow it as a DM; however, I generally wouldn't allow a character who suddenly decided, after waking up one day, to become a class without a good reason in the backstory.

My apologies for being unclear.

[Slipperychicken]

Going out to adventure with 6 Con is pretty much suicide IMO. That's practically begging to be one-shotted by the first goblin who lands a hit on you.

For some perspective, if someone starts out with 1 hit point (which would be the expected result of 1d6-2, i.e. a first level rogue), that means he faints to even the slightest exertion because of how nonlethal damage works. If the temperature gets over 90 F, this guy has an ~80% chance to fall unconscious from heatstroke within an hour. A single scratch from a cat will surely KO him. Pressing such a fragile person into armed service is unethical, and generally a bad idea because all the training that goes into him is wasted the moment it gets a little hot outside.



One of my favorite chars was a guy who became a wizard against his wishes and without showing much promise in that field (14 int on a 32 PB) just to follow the family tradition (it was Dragonlance, where wizardry is pretty dangerous business). Ended up being a pretty awesome gish.

Wizards don't really need a high intelligence score to be competent, just enough to cast their highest-level spells. By mid-levels, you probably don't notice the bonus spells anyway.

I imagine that a non-adventuring hedge wizard could scrape by with as little as 11 intelligence, as long as he either doesn't plan on hitting 3rd level, or has access to an int-boosting items.

[Yuki Akuma]

A 3rd level Wizard with only 11 Int is still better off than a 2nd level Wizard with same - he can put 1st level spells in his brand new 2nd level spell slot, and he learns 2 more spells for free.

[Slipperychicken]

A 3rd level Wizard with only 11 Int is still better off than a 2nd level Wizard with same - he can put 1st level spells in his brand new 2nd level spell slot, and he learns 2 more spells for free.

Good point. Plus, once he hits 4th level, he can put the point into Intelligence, and after that he should be able to afford +Int items which would last him for quite a few levels (a +4 headbant of Intellect with bonuses from leveling would be totally sufficient to get him up to 9th level spells).

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh, and he can also finally Still or Silence 1st level spells, too.

[PersonMan]

Well, the nonability might be "factored into LA/RHD" but in reality if you buy the LA off and catch back up to the rest of the party, you just have a larger effective point by.

So, basically, if you pay for it, you paid for it and it doesn't bother you anymore?

Isn't this how paying for things is supposed to work?

[LordBlades]

Wizards don't really need a high intelligence score to be competent, just enough to cast their highest-level spells. By mid-levels, you probably don't notice the bonus spells anyway.


While this is true, we were playing in a world that had been slightly adjusted to the PCs power level, so even among NPC wizards, so 16-18 starting int before racials was pretty usual among the Wizards of High Sorcery.

This guy was really not that great (although still functional, I was planning on him to be a gish) of a wizardry candidate in this incarnation of Dragonlance, and on a personal level he dreaded taking the tests :smalltongue:

[Just to Browse]

The cost of being a necropolitan is not the XP or GP, it's that your HP will suck at high levels and any fool with turning can force you to make SoLs every round.

The extra points on point-buy are totally not even going to compensate for that, so there's no reason to nerf the PC further into the ground.

[OldTrees1]

The cost of being a necropolitan is not the XP or GP, it's that your HP will suck at high levels and any fool with turning can force you to make SoLs every round.

The extra points on point-buy are totally not even going to compensate for that, so there's no reason to nerf the PC further into the ground.

I agree on the hp issue. (even if they optimized their ritual)

However is turning really an issue at high levels? Sure at low levels (1-3) you risk destruction and at mid levels you risk turning. But at high levels doesn't turn resistance beat out the normal investment in heightening turning? (Defense is bought more often than offense)

In the end I think that Necropolitian is still worth its RAW cost at high level. However I agree that reducing its point buy would be an unnecessary nerf.

[holywhippet]

That really depends on how low their Con gets. To me, 8 Con isn't Con getting dumped, as much as just being lower than average; it's when you combine it with a race that also has a Con penalty, say Elf or Goblin, that I consider it dumping Constitution, and a character with 6 con isn't going to be a fighter, because their character wouldn't be able to handle rigors of training.


You could argue that a character might undergo transformation to become a Necropolitan because they realize their weak, sickly body isn't going to be enough. Works from a role playing POV, perhaps they have some quest for revenge in their background and they undergo the transformation to give them the power to pull it off.