What would be the CR rating for this encounter?

[killem2]

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I'm trying to figure up what the CR rating would be for my party.


3x Drow, gestalt Sorcerer 5/Wizard 5.

I saw the CR rating part for gestalts but that seems to be sending stuff AT gestalt players but it doesn't seem to talk about enemy gestalts. :smalleek:

[RFLS]

I'm trying to figure up what the CR rating would be for my party.


3x Drow, gestalt Sorcerer 5/Wizard 5.

I saw the CR rating part for gestalts but that seems to be sending stuff AT gestalt players but it doesn't seem to talk about enemy gestalts. :smalleek:

I'd call it a high 6 or low 7, unless they're highly optimized. Having a non-caster on one side might actually up the CR.

[Der_DWSage]

Well...the thing about Sorcerer/Wizard is that they have a lot of spell slots per day, so they can last a while. With them being an enemy encounter? They'll likely last a few rounds at best, so they can't make use of the one thing their Gestalt status gives them.

I'd honestly say that these gestalt Drow are no higher than CR 6, maaaaaybe CR 7 if they have a crazy good spell selection and strike from the shadows.

[killem2]

Are you saying 6cr each or 6cr total?

[Der_DWSage]

Right, forgot that they were a group. It's CR + 3 for having a total of three mooks, right? If so, CR 9 total, CR 10 on the outside if they get buffs and throw their first wave of spells from the darkness.

[killem2]

Yup a group, and I had a question about striking like that, currently, I have them all 30ft off the ground sitting in rope trick holes.

As the main baddie rants they start pushing out bodies of dead comrades.

Main baddie will run away and these three will fight. Can they attack from rope trick?

[killem2]

I have had some time to really fine tune this a bit more.

I read up, and the three cannot cast from the hole from rope trick.

The room is 120’ wide by 90’ deep. You cannot see how high the ceiling is. All you see is darkness above you. Sitting quietly in 1’ stands in each corner, are hooded lanterns with purple glass, dimming the light to that of a torch, into a sickly purple haze.

Sorrry for the choppy formatting, i copied it from word.

the only difference between these three however one has MM rod of extend, one has sculpting, and the other has substitution.

The first round, they will be invisible so they can (swift) fly to the lanterns and pull out a bolt, launch it and destroy the lamps. They want to have complete darkness. at least there.

Str: 6 Dex: 15 Con: 17 Wis: 11 Int: 17 Cha: 17
HP: 35 BAB: +2 AF 0% Speed: 30 Initiatives: +11
AC: 26 FF: 24 Touch: 13 (2 Dex, 6 Mithral Shirt, 4 Shield Spell, 1 Shadow Cloak, 3 Natural),
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Initiative
Items:
• Shadow Cloak
• Amulet of Natural Armor
• +2 Twilight Mithral Shirt
• +1 Warning Dagger
• Healing Belt
• Rod of Substitution Lesser
• Haversack
o 6 Adamantine Bolts 1d6
Sorcerer Spells Known: 0th – 6x Launch Bolt |7x 1st Magic Missile, Grease, Nerveskitter, Kelgore’s Firebolt|4x 2nd Ray of Ice, Scorching Ray

Wizard Spells Prepared: 0th – Acid Splash | 1st Wall of Smoke, Obscuring Mist, Magic Missile, and Shield | 2nd Swift Fly, Invisibility, Dimension Hop | 3rd Vampiric Touch x2 (Sends Familiar to do it)
Bat Familiar.
Spell resistance 16
Saves: F4 | R3 | W6


The party is a level 9 cleric, level 9 minotaur fighter (dragonlance), level 8 half orc barbarian/warhulk, level 8 elf wizard, and a level 8 halfling rogue.

That'll be the suprise round that that happens, then if they win initiative (very possible) they will grease up the big hulking fighter, cleric, and warhulk and hope they stay down, while they try and work on the others.


The will already have the vampiric tuoch loaded on the bats read to use.

So these are rather glass cannon like enemies, but very potent.

Thoughts on CR thus far? :smallconfused:

[Bronk]

Well, you have three drow (LA+2) at level 5, and their gestalt doesn't seem to make them any more powerful than normal for a short encounter. Individually, their CR would be 7, bumped up by two to 9 by doubling their number to two.

So, at least CR9. On top of that, I think the adjustment for a third identical enemy, the fact that they are very well equipped and prepared for an ambush would bump it up to at least CR10, if not more.

Bye the way, you might look into setting it up so that only one of the drow needs to waste a surprise action putting out the lights, maybe by casting 'pyrotechnics' or using their 'darkness' power instead.

[killem2]

Oooo that's clever I like that. I assume you are talking about using the lanterns as the material component? :smallbiggrin:

[3drinks]

How well is that darkness gonna work when you have a Darkvision user in the party?

For those PC levels you mentioned (four nines and an eight, two of which are tier 1 casters) I don't foresee them having an issue with this monster party. It looks like a hella fun fight, too!

[Bronk]

Yeah, I was thinking they could use the lantern flame as the component for Pyrotechnics... the smoke would block vision in the area, and they'd have a few backups if they used the lanterns one at a time. I think it would work on everyone's vision though, even the drow's own darkvision.

I think the encounter sounds fun too!

[Karoht]

I see these guys front-loading a lot of damage quickly, with a party that can't really see them or locate them easily. The party makeup can absolutely deal with these guys, but it is going to be messy.

On the smoke/mists:
1-Do the bats have echolocation, therefore a means of pinpointing people in the smoke/mists? I always forget if they can do that or not.
Tactic here could be that they all throw up smoke/mists (in the event that the Darkness isn't good enough) and hold the bats in reserve, use the Vampiric Touch as a means of healing up should any of them be located in the darkness too easily.
2-Caltrops + lack of vision is really really dirty. I completely recommend it.
3-Flight-Can the party reach the casters if they fly up out of the smoke, as in literally maybe 30ft off the floor? They can get line of sight to the edges of the smoke/mists, and hold actions to nuke anything that comes out with something like Scorching Ray/Ray of Ice
4-Sculpting, any fun plans for it beyond Grease?

[killem2]

How well is that darkness gonna work when you have a Darkvision user in the party?

For those PC levels you mentioned (four nines and an eight, two of which are tier 1 casters) I don't foresee them having an issue with this monster party. It looks like a hella fun fight, too!


Don't expect too much from my group, they are not super optimizers. Which is why these are level 5 gestalts and not level 7's or 8's :P.

As far as dark vision, I was going to slam down the grease with in a 40ft cone to try keep them as busy as possible.

If push comes to shove, maybe call all the adamanite bolts poisoned ones as well.




Yeah, I was thinking they could use the lantern flame as the component for Pyrotechnics... the smoke would block vision in the area, and they'd have a few backups if they used the lanterns one at a time. I think it would work on everyone's vision though, even the drow's own darkvision.

I think the encounter sounds fun too!

That's where I would I need to be careful of what I do. I don't want to make it a neutral effect, I need to put them behind. I would probably use more obscuring mist at that point, maybe even on top of the blind effect.


I see these guys front-loading a lot of damage quickly, with a party that can't really see them or locate them easily. The party makeup can absolutely deal with these guys, but it is going to be messy.

On the smoke/mists:
1-Do the bats have echolocation, therefore a means of pinpointing people in the smoke/mists? I always forget if they can do that or not.
Tactic here could be that they all throw up smoke/mists (in the event that the Darkness isn't good enough) and hold the bats in reserve, use the Vampiric Touch as a means of healing up should any of them be located in the darkness too easily.
2-Caltrops + lack of vision is really really dirty. I completely recommend it.
3-Flight-Can the party reach the casters if they fly up out of the smoke, as in literally maybe 30ft off the floor? They can get line of sight to the edges of the smoke/mists, and hold actions to nuke anything that comes out with something like Scorching Ray/Ray of Ice
4-Sculpting, any fun plans for it beyond Grease?


Bats I believe can find them with blind sense. I think. Caltrops could be a possibility. Might try it, I think sleet storm might be my go to on it.

Only one of the casters can actually fly, and that's the wizard. She usually prepares it. If that is the case, I'll prolly toss some poison bolts at her.


I'm saving the other two charges of sculpting from the rod, for probably sleet storm (which I don't have listed but I might consider it)

[Karoht]

I'm going to second the motion for Sleetstorm + Caltrops + Grease. It is hilarious, especially if one were to combo it up with some illusions, but lets not complicate this too much.

@Bats
What is hilarious is, all 3 can be holding their action to dive bomb one guy. Which will be very very lethal.

Here's kind of how I'm seeing the fight.
Surprise Round-Pull the Bolts and Launch them, making the room dark.
Round 1-A few spells appear out of the darkness, party gets a vague idea of where the bad guys are, probably won't make it into base to base with all 3.
Round 2-Mages drop caltrops, grease things up, etc while party still fumbles around a bit. One of them should be holding an action to cast the mist/smoke in the event that the party remembers that Light is a cantrip.
Round 3-Mist/Smoke is probably going to go off this round, whichever one can fly does so. Uses Bat Familiar's Blindsense to pinpoint some targets and keep dropping the AoE on them, such as the Grease, more caltrops, etc.
Round 4 and onward-When the party becomes too much of a nuisance, Sleetstorm goes off. The party is now stumbling around on ice covered in grease and stepping on caltrops, while bats swoop down and bite them, healing their masters. Eventually, someone is going to exit the Sleetstorm, and when they do they will probably eat 2-3 held actions worth of Scorching Ray/Ray of Frost/Launch Bolt/Magic Missile.

If they have time to use Invisibility, then it will be even more lethal as those salvo's will likely be hitting flat footed touch AC's. Considering also that they can drop caltrops while invisible (and obscured by mist) safely without anyone really noticing, same with placing yet more Grease, as these are not attacks unless done on someone's square.

Does anyone in the party have Glitterdust/Faerie Fire? How about a bag or two of flour/chalk?

Maybe give one of them one last pitfall to really mess up the party. One of them should use the invisibility to go to the entrance door, and set up a tripwire or three. One in the door, two in the hall. Hopefully, the mist/smoke/sleetstorm will cover the door as well, so if the party does try and escape, it is yet another hazard for them. Yet more things to knock them prone but not necessarily hurt them.
That may sound a bit cruel, but remember that if they are prone, they get +4 AC VS Ranged Attacks, so this could actually work in the party's favor to some degree.

Because of the tactical considerations, I would factor that into the CR to a degree. Maybe not the actual CR but definitely the estimation of how hard the fight will be VS the party. In my head this is coming up as a CR 12-13, if you disregard the tactics then minus 1 or 2 from the CR. Just a loose estimate mind you.

And maybe consider making the room a bit smaller. Not much, maybe reduce that 120ft dimension to 80 ft. Or just be nice when you place that Sleetstorm and leave them a big fat area (at the opposite end of the room from the door) to be safe (and just throw smoke/mist over there).

[killem2]

I'm going to second the motion for Sleetstorm + Caltrops + Grease. It is hilarious, especially if one were to combo it up with some illusions, but lets not complicate this too much.

I do like it, but how do you easily disperse these things over a large scale? The caltrops I mean. If there are any low level spells that replicate a similar nusiance I'd be ok with using it.


Humor me though, what did you have in mind with illusions? :D


@Bats
What is hilarious is, all 3 can be holding their action to dive bomb one guy. Which will be very very lethal.

Yes, very true. I plan on targeting a cleric with it. He is the most expierenced player and knows how to use his cleric very well. When I planned a sea adventure, he tied himself to the mast with a chain so if he got knocked off he wouldn't go into the water. He is an outside the box kind of thinker.


Here's kind of how I'm seeing the fight.
Surprise Round-Pull the Bolts and Launch them, making the room dark.
Round 1-A few spells appear out of the darkness, party gets a vague idea of where the bad guys are, probably won't make it into base to base with all 3.
Round 2-Mages drop caltrops, grease things up, etc while party still fumbles around a bit. One of them should be holding an action to cast the mist/smoke in the event that the party remembers that Light is a cantrip.
Round 3-Mist/Smoke is probably going to go off this round, whichever one can fly does so. Uses Bat Familiar's Blindsense to pinpoint some targets and keep dropping the AoE on them, such as the Grease, more caltrops, etc.
Round 4 and onward-When the party becomes too much of a nuisance, Sleetstorm goes off. The party is now stumbling around on ice covered in grease and stepping on caltrops, while bats swoop down and bite them, healing their masters. Eventually, someone is going to exit the Sleetstorm, and when they do they will probably eat 2-3 held actions worth of Scorching Ray/Ray of Frost/Launch Bolt/Magic Missile.


What I'm going to do is, have the main bad guy, who is stat wise a Mindflayer gestalt Psion 20/Wizard 20. However, I'm melding this module to get back into the age of worms adventures, and he's sold his soul to Kyuss and will explode and I think that's a good way to set off pyrotechnics. (or a fiat in a way to set them off). I like the idea of the lights going out in a flash, possibly blinding them. After all there are 4 chances to fail the save, and which the actually save from this charcter DC would be: 23 (int of 33, spell level of 2, and base 10) This boss was going to be the final fight, a few levels on down the road but I lost a few people from the group so I am returning back to the age of worms.


If they have time to use Invisibility, then it will be even more lethal as those salvo's will likely be hitting flat footed touch AC's. Considering also that they can drop caltrops while invisible (and obscured by mist) safely without anyone really noticing, same with placing yet more Grease, as these are not attacks unless done on someone's square.

I agree. It's going to be a nice slug fest.



Does anyone in the party have Glitterdust/Faerie Fire? How about a bag or two of flour/chalk?

No flour, they do have chalk but it is in sticks not crushed (suppose they could do that), and I think they have glitter dust. Weather she prepares it, another thing. I just want them to wear them down, and I that's partially why I chose a lot of spells with saves/spell resistance.


Maybe give one of them one last pitfall to really mess up the party. One of them should use the invisibility to go to the entrance door, and set up a tripwire or three. One in the door, two in the hall. Hopefully, the mist/smoke/sleetstorm will cover the door as well, so if the party does try and escape, it is yet another hazard for them. Yet more things to knock them prone but not necessarily hurt them.
That may sound a bit cruel, but remember that if they are prone, they get +4 AC VS Ranged Attacks, so this could actually work in the party's favor to some degree.


The door is actually a portal, and the pudding/ooze like material that the portal is made of, forms solid when they pass through, (the three gestalts have the key to unlock it)


Because of the tactical considerations, I would factor that into the CR to a degree. Maybe not the actual CR but definitely the estimation of how hard the fight will be VS the party. In my head this is coming up as a CR 12-13, if you disregard the tactics then minus 1 or 2 from the CR. Just a loose estimate mind you.

I agree, I think for the length of time this will take and the headache, it is worth giving them a 13 cr worth of exp. I do want them to pass level 8 and have access to level 5 spells at the least before they move onto the next adventure, which is listed a a challenge for 4 level 11 characters. (I do think they are basing it off of loopy underrated CR of 3.5)




And maybe consider making the room a bit smaller. Not much, maybe reduce that 120ft dimension to 80 ft. Or just be nice when you place that Sleetstorm and leave them a big fat area (at the opposite end of the room from the door) to be safe (and just throw smoke/mist over there).


I considering this, but I do like leaving just a bit of tactical terrain advantage for the players if they find it. That and I already drew up the map lol and made hard tiles (http://www.hirstarts.com/) :)

[Karoht]

I do like it, but how do you easily disperse these things over a large scale? The caltrops I mean. If there are any low level spells that replicate a similar nusiance I'd be ok with using it.Any time they don't want to give away their position,, any time they don't want to fire off a spell, they can pour or place some caltrops on the ground.


Humor me though, what did you have in mind with illusions? :DSince you asked...
Walls. Walls where they should not be while people are fumbling around in fog is always fun.
Knee high steps, randomly. Take a patch of the terrain, checkerboard it with knee high stones as opposed to keeping the floor level. Will save negates the trip. Make that perhaps another acrobatics or a low DC Reflex save to not fall over. It's more to make them paranoid really.
Illusion of any of the mages. Great distraction, especially if you can line up the mage illusion and the player in such a way that another mage can fire a spell through the mage illusion. The illusion is that of a mage doing incantations. As long as it causes a player to waste an action or two dealing with this illusion, it's working out.
Ghost Sound is a cantrip. It lasts for a few rounds. Use those to throw distractions into the Fog/Sleetstorm. Use Mage Hand to tap on someone's shoulder, brush their face, grab onto a belt loop and gently tug, while they are in Fog/Sleetstorm. Two cantrips can add a very creepy atmosphere and really keep the players second guessing themselves at every turn. Also, things they can do while staying Invisible.



No flour, they do have chalk but it is in sticks not crushed (suppose they could do that), and I think they have glitter dust. Weather she prepares it, another thing. I just want them to wear them down, and I that's partially why I chose a lot of spells with saves/spell resistance. It sounds unlikely that the invisibility will be bipassed all that well or often. It won't cripple them completely, but it will be a nuisance.


I agree, I think for the length of time this will take and the headache, it is worth giving them a 13 cr worth of exp. I do want them to pass level 8 and have access to level 5 spells at the least before they move onto the next adventure, which is listed a a challenge for 4 level 11 characters. (I do think they are basing it off of loopy underrated CR of 3.5)With all the jockeying for position, that is going to kill most of your time, wear out round/level buffs, etc. This will be a long fight just for that reason. Throwing illusions and other misdirection into the mix will only make it take longer, or confuse your players more.

I'm in a campaign right now where the first 2 books of the module were mostly fights like this. Made worse by the fact that I'm playing a Ninja with Smoke Bombs. Made much easier once we got our hands onto things that allowed us to see through smoke/fog. But every fight we got into, especially with casters, was very cloak and dagger, for the whole party. It really required a lot of tactical thinking.

[killem2]

Sounds great!

I ran through a test run, and I will def have to keep these guys away from the party, if in range and visible by the wizard or cleric we have they could eat dirt fast.

But otherwise, it's awesome haha.

Caltrops are going to be a must, and grease is a absolute house against to two big melees we got, they fail their stuff all the time haha.

I also tried it with the 4x pyrotechnics, and all but two passed their saves (wizard/cleric passed easy, even with a 23 dc)

[killem2]

Ok, I've been running through this senario a few times, tweaking it as I think it needs to be.

I've given the would be mages sculpting rod, reach rod, and twin rod to have.
I made sure they all have +1 warning hand cross bows instead of daggers so they could fire the bolts should they be unable to cast spells.

The over all strategy is to mix up a few flash spells, like Incendiary Slime + Fireball from some one else, while all of them have bags of endless caltrops and will begin dropping those after, they plop down some sculpted slimes, twined caustic smokes, and charging up a bat with some touch based spells.

I plan on obscuring visions and movement first and foremost, and then as the party stumbles around in the dark, possibly blinded from the first pre-combat explosion of pyrotechnics x4, then caltrops will be dropped all over, and if anyone starts coming out, I have a mish-mash of single targeted stuff like:

Magic Missles, Combust, Ray of Clumsiness, Ray of Weakness, Arcane Turmoil, Phantasmal Assilants, Ice Knife, Ray of Enfeeblement, Vampiric Touch, Ghoul Touch, Manyjaws and a few others.

I maxed hp out, and redid stats slightly so they all have 45 hp.

They each have a Healing Belt of Battle (healing belt + belt of battle), as their last ditch survival tech.

And if they run out of spells or just don't have anything else that they want to do, they might start slinging the poisoned bolts.


There AC has been brought down to a more modest 19, but I doubt any of them will be getting in melee unless our cleric and wizard are smart enough to prepare some dispel magics.

With all this, I think I feel fine, treating this as a CR14 encounter.


On top of all this, I gave each of them portable holes, that they will drop on the floor opened.

[Diarmuid]

Not sure how strictly by RAW you're looking to keep this but,


"When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being."

[killem2]

Not sure how strictly by RAW you're looking to keep this but,

That's awesome :D.


Would you allow reflex saves if they are in effects of a fog cloud/mist ect, or would you say they fall in.

[Runestar]

The sorcerer part adds absolutely nothing to the drow wizard side, IMO. They don't even get additional 3rd lv spells! :smalltongue:

Likewise, drow don't really make decent low-lv npcs because of their con penalty. I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that they remain at cr5, and shouldn't really be of any real challenge to your PCs. At cr7, I could be using a drider instead, which comes with way better stats.

At this stage, you have a 9th lv party. Aim for EL 10-11 (don't worry about it being too tough, because classed npcs tend to be weaker than their cr otherwise lets on). Maybe 3-4 drow wizard7 (using temp hp to boost their durability), 2-3 drow sorc8, or maybe even 2 drider wiz1 (for 4th lv spells)?

[killem2]

They give me more spells :)

I won't be changing the basic structure, i suppose I could make them level 6's on each side.

i really love the sorcerer/wizard combo, because it fits the drows bonuses, and don't worry about the con, I auto made them 18 after racials.

The drow as they are for the slim chance one of my other players returns, because part of their background has some major beef with Drow, specifically the elf.

If you think they may be too weak, like I said I will go to level 6, that will grant me another feat.

Can you give me some suggestions, on items that let them deal area damage in a limited form, that isn't a wand, rod, staff?

I really like things like Lightning Gauntlets and such.

[killem2]

Here is my Final Draft of the characters.

In addition to these characters, they start off having to make a save vs blindness from pyrotechnics then go into full darkness.

What is the same:
Core or Spell Comp, with a very very very minimal spell from other books.
All Drow
All come from rope trick holes
All Gestalt Wizard 6/Sorcerer 6
All have 48 HP
All have 10x Caltrop spells prepared from the combination of wiz/sorc level 0 spells as well.
All start out with Fly spell activated.
All have 20 AC, 12 touch, 19 FF (this includes magical bonuses and such)
All have Initiative score of +15 or more.
All have following stats: Str 11, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 18, Wis, 14, Cha 18
All have +1 Warning Hand Crossbows with 10x Poison Tipped +2 Adamatine Bolts, Bag of Endless Caltrops, and Portable Holes.

From here out, I refer to the three as Grey, Green, Purple Mage.

Green Mage
Items:
Pather Mask
Amulet of Emergency Healing
Robe of Mysterious Conjuration
Gaunlets of Blazing Arc
Healing Belt of Battle
Sandals of the Vagabond
Circlet of Mages
Shadow Cloak
Hair Shirt of Suffering
Bracers of the Entangling Blast
Ring of Three Wishes (all three wishes left, user doesn't realize it is this ring)
Ring of Might Summons
Lesser Metamagic Rod: Twin Spell

Wizard Spell Prepared:
[Level 1]
Shield x1
Obscuring Mist x1
Neverskitter x1
Mage Armor x1

[Level 2]
Invisibility x1
See Invisibility x1
Ice Knife x2

[Level 3]
Caustic Smoke x1
Fly x1
Fireball x1

Sorcerer Spell Available:

[Level 1] x7
Magic Missile
Grease
Ray of Clumsiness
Obscuring Mist

[Level 2] x6
Phantasmal Assailant
Ray of Weakness

[Level 3] x4
Summon Monster 3


Grey Mage
Items:

Mind Armor
Dragon's Amulet
Shroud of Scales
Arcanist Gloves
Healing Belt of Battle
Boots of Big Stepping
Helm of Wounding Sight
Shadow Cloak
Fiery Tunic
Armband of Elusive Action
Mystic Lightning
Force Wall
Lesser Metamagic Rod: Sculpt Spell

Wizard Spell Prepared:
[Level 1]
Shield x1
Obscuring Mist x1
Neverskitter x1
Mage Armor x1

[Level 2]
Invisibility x1
Combust x1
Phantasmal Assailant x2

[Level 3]
Manyjaws x1
Fly x1
Fireball x1

Sorcerer Spell Available:

[Level 1] x7
Magic Missile
Grease
Jet of Steam
Benign Transposition

[Level 2] x6
Arcane Turmoil
Incendiary Slime

[Level 3] x4
Vampiric Touch


Purple Mage
Items:

Mask of Lies
Amulet of Retributive Healing
Robe of the Inferno
Lightning Gauntlets
Quicksilver Boots
Circlet of Rapid Casting
Shadow Cloak
Shirt of Bone
Bracer's of Blinding Strike
Lightning Flashes
Ring of the Liar (custom ring +10 bluff)
Lesser Metamagic Rod: Widen Spell

Wizard Spell Prepared:
[Level 1]
Shield x1
Obscuring Mist x1
Neverskitter x1
Arcane Bolt x1

[Level 2]
Invisibility x1
Kelgore's Grave Mist x2
Web x1

[Level 3]
Wind Wall x1
Fly x1
Fireball x1

Sorcerer Spell Available:

[Level 1] x7
Arcane Bolt
Grease
Ray of Enfeeblement
Benign Transposition

[Level 2] x6
Ghoul Touch
Spectral Hand

[Level 3] x4
Vampiric Touch

[bekeleven]

They give me more spells :)
Unless casting more spells than a wizard could cast in a day, Sorc doesn't provide an appreciable enhancement to their fighting ability in the fight.

If you can find a dozen 1 minute/level buffs for them to drain their extra slots with before the encounter begins, maybe. But most likely they will perform almost identically to wizards.

[killem2]

Unless casting more spells than a wizard could cast in a day, Sorc doesn't provide an appreciable enhancement to their fighting ability in the fight.

If you can find a dozen 1 minute/level buffs for them to drain their extra slots with before the encounter begins, maybe. But most likely they will perform almost identically to wizards.

I've designed their spell choices, to be a long LONG fight, of tactics and annoyances. Lots of blindness/paralyzation/movement restriction, and so on.

Grease is going to really screw over the two big bad melees we have at first, and possibly the cleric.

The wizard will more than likely polymorph and fly so she is the biggest threat, and will get targeted ten fold as such if she becomes a major threat. These are after all, not stupid dumb orc fighters :P.

I predict a flying creature with long reach. Or, she may surprise me and give flying to the melee artists.

The rogue will be partially screwed, but not totally. This entire dungeon has been one continuous thinking project. They really had to use their brains through out it, because of puzzles, traps, and figuring out the special weaknesses of particular fights.


Overall, I've also designed one of them, to be, if he ends up being the last one alive, and almost dead, he's going to bluff them into stopping the attack to try and fake surrender and activate a damage based item as they come to shackle him. :smallbiggrin:

[killem2]

Final Update, the fight!

So it started off pretty decent, all but the cleric was blinded. Lasted for 4 rounds for everyone but the rogue who was 5 rounds.

It setup some some really annoying blocks for the enemies to use to disrupt people. Mists, fogs ect.

I regret giving them hand cross bows, I would have liked to use heavy cross bows or longbows for range.

This fight is still going we had to pause it because it started at like 12:45 and we stopped a 7 pm lol. They are scrapping at this point, one (bad guy) man is down.

I also most had the rogue and wizard killed because they kepts flying up together on the wizard who was poly-morphed as a dragon, and on the 3rd attempt, I arcane turmoil the poly-morph and they took 14d6 points of damage.

I used special death rules, and because of that, I wish I had given more fire balls and such, but we'll see, currently they are on the ground 30ft away, and they just dropped grease on 4 of the 5 party members. The biggest melee guy is out with being paralyzed.

I still have a few tricks left to go, but over all it's accomplished what I want, to be a highly annoying battle. The caltrops didn't have any effect on the battle at all.

The one that did die, got a bad roll against the rogues feint attempt and left him flat footed and unloaded a nasty sneak attack on him.