DOING Tucker's Kobolds [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ZX6Rob

2013-11-19, 06:28 PM

I honestly don't know how successful the old Tucker's Kobolds trick will be against highly-optimized, tier-1-playing, system-mastery-having players. I always understood that part of what made Tucker's Kobolds work was that the players had raw power, but tended to view any situation the way a sledgehammer does, preferring brute force over finesse and intelligent tactics.

That being said, the story -- or at least the version I read of it -- has some pretty readily-adaptable things in it:

Herd 'em like sheep - Tucker's kobolds are described in the story as doing just this on numerous occasions. They lock the PCs in a room behind a heavy iron door, barring their escape. This means the PCs have to either break down the door -- which could be time consuming -- or continue deeper into the dungeon. By setting the room on fire afterwards, the kobolds have forced the group's hand -- they continue deeper into the dungeon or they burn up and die. The point here is that the kobolds -- not the group -- are controlling the adventurers' progress through the dungeon.
Take cover! - "Murder Holes" are the term used for this in the story. Narrow slits that allow crossbows to be fired through them without exposing the user to harm. This allows the kobolds to fire from a position where they can't be fired upon, as they'll count for near-total concealment. Bonus points for combining this with...
"I have the high ground!" - Suspend your murder holes out of range to increase the difficulty further! A long, tall, narrow hallway with crossbow ports high on the walls makes it impossible for your meat machine fighter to stick a greatsword into any one of them and wiggle it around for massive damage. This dovetails nicely with...
Spread 'em! - If your kobolds are all grouped up, all it takes is one lucky wizard with a fireball spell prepared, and your crafty little trapsmiths are roasted but good. Keep your kobolds spread out -- murder holes on opposite walls of the room are a start, but also consider making each sniper's nest a single room, rather than a continuous hallway with multiple ports. Small tunnels allow the kobolds to easily move between them, and if something explosive gets in there, it only takes out one of your little dudes, since the walls contain it.
Fire! Fire! Fire! - PCs can prepare for elemental damage easily with foresight and planning. However, they'll be pretty surprised the first time the kobolds set the entire room ablaze, and that surprise means they're vulnerable. In the Tucker story, the kobolds constantly use the threat of fire damage to control the PCs movement, herding them to where the little lizards can do the most damage. Flaming debris, molotov cocktails using Alchemist's Fire, even setting entire rooms ablaze, all of these can be used to control the movement of the player group. While the iron-skinned barbarian might be willing to risk running into a blaze to escape, the ill-prepared sorcerer or aging, frail wizard may not be so willing.
Can't spell TEAM with I - One of the prevailing themes of Tucker's Kobolds is that the kobolds coordinate and act as a group, using their greater numbers to their advantage. It's not one smart sorcerer hiding behind a wave of mooks that all rush out and "fight fair", it's a whole squadron of little reptilian SEALs. Even the grunts with the crossbows are taking cover, spreading out, surrounding the players, and taking advantage of things like flanking and positioning. Each one knows better than to close in when they can fight from afar, better than to bunch up where they can all be taken out. They make use of multiple tactics at once. It's not, "these kobolds will try to push you into the acid pit, and when you beat them, these ones will try to shoot you with arrows," it's all of those things happening at once as they all coordinate with each other. Snipers are shooting at you while two more bar the iron doors, locking you in, while bombers on the rafters light the room on fire while the rear guard prepares an ambush in the next room.
Proper Planning and Preparation Prevents... - One of the best parts of the story is when the players run back to the entrance to the dungeon, only to find that the kobolds have prepared for this, peppering their lair with a series of little tunnels that they can quickly traverse to get ahead of the PCs. This allows them to lay an ambush for the wounded and exhausted players, possibly finishing off one or more of them as they're taken by surprise. Remember, a surprise round can happen more than once in a dungeon. If your bad guys are doing their jobs right, it oughtta' happen every time. Your kobolds have had the home-field advantage for a long time here, and they're master trapsmiths and strategists. They're smaller and more maneuverable than their lumbering enemies. In fact, all of the large, "main" rooms that the PCs might explore could, in fact, be considered completely expendable by the kobolds, who can easily get around using their network of tunnels and hidden rooms.

That's my take-away from it, anyway. I don't know how to get more specific without actually mapping out an encounter, but hopefully that helps some.

Frosty

2013-11-19, 06:43 PM

Crasical

2013-11-19, 06:46 PM

"Relax, it's just nonmagical fire. It's only 1d6 damage a round."

koboldish

2013-11-19, 06:57 PM

"Relax, it's just nonmagical fire. It's only 1d6 damage a round."

Well.... Umm.... Alchemist's fire does 1d4 per hit. And that means a fistful of d4s. Anywho, terrain control is a huuuge problem for the little kobold buddies. They could probably conceal walls of force, but it would take a lot of them to make tunneling work, which is not very cost effective. I still feel like this would work well though. They could have the peppersmoke grenades or whatever that give a no save blind with a mundane item. What could we do to make them decent in melee, if it ever came to that?

Frosty

2013-11-19, 07:00 PM

"Relax, it's just nonmagical fire. It's only 1d6 damage a round."At level 10, with Resist Energy on? Yeah, that's the gist of the conversation.

Well.... Umm.... Alchemist's fire does 1d4 per hit. And that means a fistful of d4s. Anywho, terrain control is a huuuge problem for the little kobold buddies. They could probably conceal walls of force, but it would take a lot of them to make tunneling work, which is not very cost effective. I still feel like this would work well though. They could have the peppersmoke grenades or whatever that give a no save blind with a mundane item. What could we do to make them decent in melee, if it ever came to that?Doesnt matter how much alchemist's fire. Energy resistance applies to each attack. Also, if the kobolds can erect walls of force somehow, they are no longer Tucker's Kobolds. They are now kobolds with 10th level sorcerers or more.

As for charging into melee, if they have to do that, the kobolds have already lost.

koboldish

2013-11-19, 07:07 PM

Yeah... I'm stupid sometimes :smallbiggrin:. Not really sure what I was thinking. They could easily use caltrops and other less common alchemical items should be able to bypass most energy resistances with some preparation. I think a better solution to spellcasters without using magic would be having a dedicated team of suicidal grapple kobolds to neutralize them, after traps separate them from the rest of the party. Sorry about my misconceptions :smallwink:.

Crasical

2013-11-19, 07:07 PM

Well.... Umm.... Alchemist's fire does 1d4 per hit. And that means a fistful of d4s. Anywho, terrain control is a huuuge problem for the little kobold buddies. They could probably conceal walls of force, but it would take a lot of them to make tunneling work, which is not very cost effective. I still feel like this would work well though. They could have the peppersmoke grenades or whatever that give a no save blind with a mundane item. What could we do to make them decent in melee, if it ever came to that?

I don't think giving the kobolds 10th level sorcerers (What they would need for Walls of Force) is really in the spirit of the story, which is all about 'weak' monsters played in a ruthlessly intelligent manner.

Edit: Quite ninja'd.*shakes fist vaguely in Frosty's direction*

Rubik

2013-11-19, 07:16 PM

Crasical

2013-11-19, 07:27 PM

Even if the PCs hit themselves with fire resistance, that just gives the kobolds more chances to use more fire.

The kobolds fill a room with fire and the PCs enter it unconcerned.

The kobolds cast Pyrotechnics. Fire resistance does nothing against cloying, choking smoke.

Alternately:

The kobolds fill a room with fire and the PCs enter it unconcerned.

The kobolds lob brown mold into the room. Fire resistance does nothing against cold damage. Even better when the kobolds start firing flaming arrows and molotov cocktails in.

Alternately:

Both!

The smoke cloud blocks sight both ways, which negates all the plink damage the kobolds may be doing with crossbow and longspear.
Pyrotechnics extinguishes the fire it's used on, which leaves nothing for the mold to grow on.
The mold isn't going to go away without a source of AoE cold damage to kill it off. The suggested method is Cone of Cold, which goes back to the problem of giving the Kobolds 10th level sorcerers.

Telonius

2013-11-19, 07:29 PM

I'm planning on running a similar scenario in a few levels for the players in my campaign. (Bell, Book, and Candle folks, stay out!)

The setup is in the spoiler.

they are extraordinarily close to the Kobold Kingdom. The name of the Kingdom is a long string of syllables in Draconic, but it translates roughly to, “Memory of the Lost.” It also warns them that the area is rife with dragons (some more powerful than the one they already faced) and flight might attract their attention. The Book informs the players that Kobolds are extremely reclusive, and guard the entrances to the kingdom very well. They’re notoriously paranoid, and are legendary trapmakers. They are intelligent creatures, however. The Devils have generally left them alone, since they are typically Lawful Evil creatures.
...
When the right path is selected, the players proceed for 3 hours until they notice a series of three caves. There are three visible entrances. Each cave is ten feet wide by ten feet high by 20 feet deep. The outside two are trapped with mechanical devices that are triggered by Kobolds hiding in tunnels connecting the three. The kobolds have a Stealth check of 45 (took 20 concealing themselves, +15 skill check, +10 circumstance bonus from being only visible through a small, well-camouflaged eye slot). With the flick of a switch, the entire rear wall suddenly rushes forward, automatically sweeping anyone in the cave, straight out and off the side of the cliff, onto the jagged rocks 70 feet below. A successful reflex save allows the character to make it out to the path and avoid the fall. If the room is examined closely, a DC 30 Search check will reveal the eye slots, but there is no visible means of getting into the tunnel room from the entrance. If the players attempt to cut into the wall or otherwise force their way into the tunnels, they find that the tunnels are extremely narrow: a Small creature would have to Squeeze Through to move through them.

TRAP: CR 7, 2d6 bludgeoning damage +7d6 falling. Reflex DC 25 avoids falling damage and halves bludgeoning.

The center cave is 20 by 40. Fifteen feet in, a ten-foot-square section of the floor appears to be covered by a Pit Trap. There are vicious-looking spikes coated with a green substance at the bottom. (This is actually an Illusion; a True Seeing effect will show it as a solid walkway). The two sections to the left and right of the pit are actually fall-away traps, controlled mechanically by kobolds in the tunnels. NOTE: If the players announce themselves, ask for an audience, or otherwise “knock politely on the door,” the Kobolds will send a single one of their number to parlay with the adventurers. He will demand a tribute of 5000gp in order to allow them to continue in. In this event, give the team full XP for avoiding the trap hazards.

TRAP: CR 10, 5d6 falling damage, pit spikes +10 (1d4 spikes per target, 1d4+4+poison each). Reflex 27 negates. Poison: Giant Wasp Poison (DC 18 fort resists, 1d6 Dex/1d6 Dex), Search DC 32, Disable DC 32.

At the far end of the room, there is a fortified door that is trapped with Dragon Bile. The door itself is false; there is nothing on the other side of it but the cave wall. To the right of it is the real door (a secret door, Search DC 30). The secret door is operated by moving a stone above it.

TRAP: CR 7; mechanical; touch trigger (attached); no reset; poison (dragon bile, DC 26 Fortitude save resists, 3d6 Str/0); Search DC 27; Disable Device DC 16.

The secret door leads to a 60-foot corridor, 5 feet wide. Each square has a pressure plate that triggers a spear attack on any creature that moves through the square.
TRAP: Attack +15, 1d8 damage. Search 28, Disable 28.

As soon as all of the players pass through the secret door, a kobold enters the previous room and closes the secret door.

The 60-foot corridor opens up to a 30-foot square. When all of the players have gathered, the kobolds release a thick coating of oil onto the floor of the room, then light it on fire by dropping an Alchemist’s Fire from positions near the ceiling. Several other kobolds are waiting with bushels full of flammable garbage to pour onto the inferno and cause smoke to billow up in the room. The smoke only hovers in this room; the corridor with the spear traps doesn’t have any smoke in it. Crawling on the floor negates the smoke damage, but deals double fire damage.

Damage: 1d6 fire (automatic). DC 15 Reflex to avoid catching fire each round. (1d6 damage per round if on fire). DC 15 (+1/round) Fort save to avoid losing the round to choking and coughing. Choking for 2 consecutive rounds deals d6 nonlethal Smoke damage.

To the right, there is a secret door (Search DC 30, penalties to smoke visibility apply) that leads to a stairway down. The stairway leads to a large room with a slightly raised platform in the center. There is a Magic Mouth spell that speaks as soon as they enter the room, in perfect Common: “Dearest adventurers, you have defeated the best traps we have to offer. Take this reward as a tribute to your might, then please go away. But if you come to speak, lay down all your weapons and walk around the table. Lord Kurtulmak will judge you by your actions.”

There is a chest containing 2000gp on the raised platform. There is a pressure plate beneath it that will detect if a single gold piece has been removed. If the players take the treasure and advance, or if they attempt to disable the trap, they trigger another Magic Mouth: “You honorless thieves! May the Breath of Kurtulmak consume you!” Immediately after it speaks this, a Delayed Blast Acid Ball (i.e. fireball with Energy Substitution Acid) is triggered immediately. (CL 19, DC 24 reflex half, 19d6 Acid damage). The stairway down retracts (leaving them with no visible way out) and Kobolds begin to shoot at them from murder holes drilled into the walls. (All arrows are tipped with Drow Knockout Poison).

And our brave Kobold Warriors? A mere Rogue1/Fighter2:
Tucker’s Army

Rogue1/Fighter2
Str 11
Dex 20
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 13

1 Craven
2 Tunnel Rat
3 Tunnel Fighting, Weapon Finesse

BAB 2
Attack: Spear +9 (1d6/x3)
OR Longbow +9 (1d6/x3)

AC 10+5(dex)+3(armor)+1(natural)+1(size)=20
HP 26

Fort 3+3=6
Ref 2+5=7
Will 0+3=2

Skills
Totals: Stealth +15, Acrobatics +11, Escape Artist +9, Disable Device +9, Perception +7, Craft Trap +11, UMD +5, Profession (Miner) +6, Bluff +5, Know (History) +5, Climb +5
1 Acrobatics 4, Escape Artist 4, Stealth 4, Perception 4, Craft (Trap) 4, Climb 4, UMD 4, Profession (Miner) 4, Bluff 4, Disable Device 4, Know(History) 2
2 Stealth 5, Climb 5, Craft (Trap) 5, Jump 2
3 Stealth 6, Craft (Trap) 6, Jump 5

Equipment:
MW Spear
MW Shortbow
MW Studded Leather
Alchemist’s Fire x4
Tanglefoot Bag x4

Frosty

2013-11-19, 07:36 PM

I don't think giving the kobolds 10th level sorcerers (What they would need for Walls of Force) is really in the spirit of the story, which is all about 'weak' monsters played in a ruthlessly intelligent manner.

Edit: Quite ninja'd.*shakes fist vaguely in Frosty's direction*:smallredface:

Even if the PCs hit themselves with fire resistance, that just gives the kobolds more chances to use more fire.

The kobolds fill a room with fire and the PCs enter it unconcerned.

The kobolds cast Pyrotechnics. Fire resistance does nothing against cloying, choking smoke.Last I checked, Pyrotechnics only confers a str and dex penalty (and fort negates too), and doesn't actually no anything to hinder a spellcaster from say...casting Gust of Wind to clear the smoke.

Alternately:

The kobolds fill a room with fire and the PCs enter it unconcerned.

The kobolds lob brown mold into the room. Fire resistance does nothing against cold damage. Even better when the kobolds start firing flaming arrows and molotov cocktails in.Brown mold? And how exactly are the kobolds handling the 3d6 cold damage themselves while carrying it? It doesn't matter if the mold are in containers, the kobolds are still taking damage. Having brown mold is a terrible idea for a race so in-love with fire, I think.

Also, at that point, Mass Resist Energy Cold as well. A caster can make a concentration check it the damage is just an average of 10. And it's probably treated as continuous damage to the DC is even lower.

Crasical

2013-11-19, 07:46 PM

I'm planning on running a similar scenario in a few levels for the players in my campaign. (Bell, Book, and Candle folks, stay out!)

The setup is in the spoiler.

And our brave Kobold Warriors? A mere Rogue1/Fighter2:

As politely as I can, because you obviously put a lot of work into this: Not an example of Tucker's Kobolds. You've used permenant illlusions and a metamagic'd delayed blast fireball, even if the 'trap operators' are low level.
I personally don't really feel the 'sweep' traps in the outer cave are very kobold-y, either, as I'd have a hard time justifying their actions as anything but powerful magic to my party. Crawling to avoid smoke dealing double damage also seems somewhat arbitrary, to me.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 08:16 PM

The smoke cloud blocks sight both ways, which negates all the plink damage the kobolds may be doing with crossbow and longspear.It'll also force everyone within the cloud to choke, as per the environmental hazards in the DMG. Really nasty stuff.

Pyrotechnics extinguishes the fire it's used on, which leaves nothing for the mold to grow on.If it's several fires spread around the room, that'll leave plenty for the mold. Plus, you have several kobolds firing off flaming arrows, each of which will double the mold's size.

The mold isn't going to go away without a source of AoE cold damage to kill it off. The suggested method is Cone of Cold, which goes back to the problem of giving the Kobolds 10th level sorcerers.
Ray of Frost is a cantrip.

Last I checked, Pyrotechnics only confers a str and dex penalty (and fort negates too), and doesn't actually no anything to hinder a spellcaster from say...casting Gust of Wind to clear the smoke.Well, it is choking smoke. According to the environmental hazards section of the SRD, it actually causes you to choke.

Brown mold? And how exactly are the kobolds handling the 3d6 cold damage themselves while carrying it? It doesn't matter if the mold are in containers, the kobolds are still taking damage. Having brown mold is a terrible idea for a race so in-love with fire, I think.It only damages creatures within 5' of it. A 10' pole with a pannier on the end can be used to scoop it up, with another pole with a lid to seal it should prevent damage once the mold is scooped up.

And kobolds are only in love with fire because it's easy to make and is lethal in large amounts to most creatures. Any warren should be ready to deal with creatures immune or resistant to fire.

Also, at that point, Mass Resist Energy Cold as well. A caster can make a concentration check it the damage is just an average of 10. And it's probably treated as continuous damage to the DC is even lower.The more spells spent on these things, the better off the kobolds are. There're plenty of ways to threaten adventurers even with cold and fire damage blocked off. Not to mention that this is only for parties and other creatures who are prepared to deal with these things. Kobolds love traps, are trained in how to create and use them, and would have quite a lot of time to consider how to best defend their homes with them. Any warren that wants to survive will make full use of as many different trap-tactics as possible using their resources.

This is only two possibilities among many.

Crasical

2013-11-19, 08:27 PM

It's a little iffy assuming that Pyrotechnics has an additional, unwritten effect based on something in an entirely separate section of the rules.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 08:30 PM

It's a little iffy assuming that Pyrotechnics has an additional, unwritten effect based on something in an entirely separate section of the rules.Well, it does say "choking smoke" explicitly, and that has its definition in the rules:

Smoke Effects

A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.

Crasical

2013-11-19, 08:35 PM

Well, it does say "choking smoke" explicitly, and that has its definition in the rules:

It says 'Choking smoke' and then says what being in the choking smoke created by the spell does, which is not the same as what being in environmental choking smoke does.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 08:41 PM

It says 'Choking smoke' and then says what being in the choking smoke created by the spell does, which is not the same as what being in environmental choking smoke does."Choking smoke" is already defined, meaning everything else is in addition to that. It's like how the Web spell says that you're entangled, and then continues giving other effects. Those effects are not "entangled," but they are in addition to the "entangled" effect.

Jeff the Green

2013-11-19, 08:43 PM

Doesnt matter how much alchemist's fire. Energy resistance applies to each attack.

That's DR. Energy resistance is per round, so at level 10 n alchemist fires in a round do nd4-20 damage.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 08:47 PM

That's DR. Energy resistance is per round, so at level 10 n alchemist fires in a round do nd4-20 damage.Except that's not how it's always defined. In 3.5, sometimes it's one, and sometimes it's the other, depending on what page you're reading.

Resistance To Energy

A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type each round, but it does not have total immunity.

The subject gains energy resistance 10 against the energy type chosen, meaning that each time the creature is subjected to such damage (whether from a natural or magical source), that damage is reduced by 10 points before being applied to the creature’s hit points.

Slipperychicken

2013-11-19, 08:56 PM

I agree that the whole point of Tucker's Kobolds is that while they're one of the weakest creatures in the game, with a grand total of 1d4 hit points each and no special abilities, they can potentially ruin an impetuous level 10 party through tactics alone. They succeed entirely through their use of dirt-cheap nonmagical equipment (i.e. not even worth looting) and their wits. No magic, no heroes, no PC class levels or feat combos, just ordinary kobolds and good tactics.

One way to keep them on-track with that is to keep them on a budget (like their NPC wealth by level) and restrict their combatants to level 1 Warriors (as shown in the monster manual statblock).

, because they can squeeze through such tiny holes. The can attack with no feasible non-magical way of being hit

This seems like it should instead count as Improved Cover, giving +8 AC and Reflex saves.

Varying Degrees of Cover [SRD]
In some cases, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Hide checks.

If Pathfinder is in play, bear traps (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/bear-traps-cr-1) are well worth the 2 gold (or 0.67 gold in materials if crafted). They're like caltrops on crack, swinging with a +10 for 2d6+3 AND can hold the target immobile until they waste actions to remove it.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 09:00 PM

Story

2013-11-19, 09:03 PM

Rubik

2013-11-19, 09:06 PM

Tucker's Kobolds doesn't really work in 3.5. Even an unoptimized party will probably have someone with a listen check high enough to hear the Kobolds through the stone better then they can hear each other (scouting is part of the classic party archetype after all).

If the party contains spellcasters with an ounce of optimization, they can trivialize it at much lower level.That's a fair assessment, but it's hard to be even somewhat prepared for what a few hundred kobolds are capable of with homefield advantage. At the very least, it'll whittle down the party's resources. Once you start getting into high levels (15+), you can start bumping up the challenges to include things like "Tucker's rakshasas" and "Tucker's illithids."

Story

2013-11-19, 09:22 PM

Prepared? A level 5 Druid or level 7 Wizard could probably do pretty well just using what they'd normally have ready.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 09:26 PM

Prepared? A level 5 Druid or level 7 Wizard could probably do pretty well just using what they'd normally have ready.Did you read the thread I linked to in the second post? That's a lot of nasty stuff in there.

Incanur

2013-11-19, 09:34 PM

I did the horde-of-kobolds-acid-flasks thing one time. They did a lot of damage, but then the party sorc blast them into oblivion with a single spell. :smallamused:

Story

2013-11-19, 09:34 PM

Did you read the thread I linked to in the second post? That's a lot of nasty stuff in there.

A couple of trap ideas? Yawn.

Not really sure what the Kobolds can do against Thoqqua spam apart from stockpiling Brown Mold, and even that's bypassable.

From the very thread you mentioned

In 3.5 rules, you're right that any number of kobolds would fail to pose a physical threat to high-level adventurers. There are just too many things a full spellcaster can do to shut down the kobolds' damage output entirely. Too many ways to indirectly return the damage. And 23 years of players gradually learning the most efective tactics within each rule set, so that what would have been a brilliant and unexpected tactic on the players' part back then, is entirely routine today. ("They're above the ceiling? Rock to Mud/Passwall/Disintegrate/a thousand other things." And today's casters scribe those utility spells on scrolls for when they need 'em, which was practically impossible in First Edition.)

Rubik

2013-11-19, 09:37 PM

A couple of trap ideas? Yawn.

Not really sure what the Kobolds can do against Thoqqua spam apart from stockpiling Brown Mold, and even that's bypassable.

From the very thread you mentionedSo you didn't read it. Okay. Not gonna bother responding to you anymore.

Story

2013-11-19, 09:44 PM

I actually did read it last year, and then reread part of it just now to see if there was anything I missed. Heck, I actually quoted a post from that thread!

Irk

2013-11-19, 09:44 PM

@ Rubik, I looked at the thread and saw the first few trap ideas and thought you were joking. Then, I read on, and I found Lycanthromancer's post. That was when I really got how insane this could be.

Story, find Lycanthromancer's post, Thoqqua spam be damned.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 09:45 PM

I actually did read it last year, and then reread part of it just now to see if there was anything I missed. Heck, I actually quoted a post from that thread!If you had read it (especially later on), you would've seen that there was a lot more than "just a couple of traps."

@ Rubik, I looked at the thread and saw the first few trap ideas and thought you were joking. Then, I read on, and I found Lycanthromancer's post. That was when I really got how insane this could be.

Story, find Lycanthromancer's post, Thoqqua spam be damned.Exactly.

Irk

2013-11-19, 09:46 PM

Yeah, I gotta agree with Rubik, I thought it was implausible too until I read the whole thing.

Story

2013-11-19, 09:52 PM

Well of course if you make them all Sorcerors (or Dragonwrought Sorcerors I guess), then it can be a challenge, but then it's not Tucker's Kobolds anymore. The whole point is to make weak useless enemies into a threat with clever tactics, not to show how much 3.5 loves magic again. Apart from the Sorcerer stuff, nothing in there looks particularly scary.

Anyway, I don't really see anything in there that would counter Thoqquas (maybe they'd die if they blundered into the waterfall I guess). But the fundamental problem with all these suggestions is that they fail to take into account what the PCs can do.

I know my 10th level party would have just scryed and dim doored in to whatever the prize was. If they actually had to kill the kobolds for some reason, they'd probably just try to start a wightpocalypse and then leave to find some enemies worth actual XP (though if there were no medium sized tunnels anywhere, the Wights might have issues).

Irk

2013-11-19, 09:57 PM

No not the waterfall or any of the first traps. Or even the sorcerers

The cylinder trap and the pit? Lead lining? blinding smoke and burrowing badger riders? Read it again.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 09:57 PM

Note that thoqquas don't leave tunnels behind them, meaning most of the trap/ambushes will still be really painful to the PCs.

Story

2013-11-19, 10:05 PM

Note that thoqquas don't leave tunnels behind them, meaning most of the trap/ambushes will still be really painful to the PCs.

They explicitly leave tunnels behind them. But even if they didn't, they autokill every kobold they touch and can burrow through most caves. It's just a war of attrition and unless there's time pressure, the kobolds are going down.

No not the waterfall or any of the first traps. Or even the sorcerers

The cylinder trap and the pit? Lead lining? blinding smoke and burrowing badger riders? Read it again.

Again, all the traps in the world are useless if the kobolds don't have a way of forcing the party to go through them.

Irk

2013-11-19, 10:06 PM

just put the thingy they want in the trap. lead line. boom, done.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 10:12 PM

They explicitly leave tunnels behind them.Could you quote the appropriate passage there in the monster entry, please? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm)

But even if they didn't, they autokill every kobold they touch and can burrow through most caves. It's just a war of attrition and unless there's time pressure, the kobolds are going down.Summon Monster III only lasts for 1 round/lvl. A thoqqua (or even 4 or 5) wouldn't last long enough to take 500 kobolds, who are all spread around the compound, down. I'm not saying it's not a good idea to summon them, but they're extremely limited in duration, and this is taking up spell slots that could be used for buffs and healing.

Again, all the traps in the world are useless if the kobolds don't have a way of forcing the party to go through them.This is true. But the players also don't get what they want if they don't.

Story

2013-11-19, 10:38 PM

Could you quote the appropriate passage there in the monster entry, please? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm)

It's in the Monster Manual entry.

Summon Monster III only lasts for 1 round/lvl. A thoqqua (or even 4 or 5) wouldn't last long enough to take 500 kobolds, who are all spread around the compound, down. I'm not saying it's not a good idea to summon them, but they're extremely limited in duration, and this is taking up spell slots that could be used for buffs and healing.

That's why I said that relying on SNA III would mean a war of attrition. It still works if you don't have time pressure, but it might take a couple days, or require you to be higher than level 5.

Polymorph on the other hand lasts for minutes, though admittedly not everyone is going to have a Tiny Air Elemental familiar.

This is true. But the players also don't get what they want if they don't.

That depends on the particular method of bypass. But assuming the treasure is distributed throughout the dungeon and can't just easily be located with magic, methods that involve killing all the kobolds remotely or redecorating the dungeon still work.

Frosty

2013-11-19, 10:44 PM

Could you quote the appropriate passage there in the monster entry, please? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm)

Summon Monster III only lasts for 1 round/lvl. A thoqqua (or even 4 or 5) wouldn't last long enough to take 500 kobolds, who are all spread around the compound, down. I'm not saying it's not a good idea to summon them, but they're extremely limited in duration, and this is taking up spell slots that could be used for buffs and healing.

This is true. But the players also don't get what they want if they don't.Depends on what classes are available. A PF Summoner can make his summons last Minutes/Level, but he'd summon Earth elementals instead I think since he doesn't have access to SNA.

As for Pyrotechnics, I believe your reading is indeed correct, however, it's still only a *chance* (FORT negates) for choking, and even then, it's still only 1d6 if there is two consecutive round of choking. The dragon shaman that gives the entire party Fast Healing 2 really doesn't care. How many casting of Pyro will your kobolds have? Are they all 4th level sorcerers?

Slipperychicken

2013-11-19, 10:53 PM

Depends on what classes are available. A PF Summoner can make his summons last Minutes/Level, but he'd summon Earth elementals instead I think since he doesn't have access to SNA.

Earth elementals rock, and Summoners who take the First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) archetype swap SM out for SNA. Summons made with the summoning SLA do last for minutes/level.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 11:02 PM

Depends on what classes are available. A PF Summoner can make his summons last Minutes/Level, but he'd summon Earth elementals instead I think since he doesn't have access to SNA.That's fairly niche, though, and anyone or anything who leaves the group is ripe for murder inside the walls. Anyone Polymorphed into a thoqqua is rendered blind while burrowing, since they don't get tremorsense or Darkvision, and a 1' hole isn't wide enough for Medium creatures to enter, so any appropriately-sized party members who want to follow are out of luck.

As for Pyrotechnics, I believe your reading is indeed correct, however, it's still only a *chance* (FORT negates) for choking, and even then, it's still only 1d6 if there is two consecutive round of choking. The dragon shaman that gives the entire party Fast Healing 2 really doesn't care. How many casting of Pyro will your kobolds have? Are they all 4th level sorcerers?Two castings per day should be sufficient, since there should be a large number of potential traps to spring, not all of which rely on that spell.

Earth elementals rock, and Summoners who take the First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) archetype swap SM out for SNA. Summons made with the summoning SLA do last for minutes/level.As I said, that's really niche, but it could do the job. Then again, I'm sure there are contingencies in place just in case anything gets inside the walls. Caltrops and alchemist's acid vials set to break if anything crushes them and so on.

Telok

2013-11-19, 11:12 PM

Tucker's Kobolds are actually a AD&D thing where kobolds are 1/2 HD mooks, fighters can make a number of attacks equal to their level, Fireball is actually a powerful spell, and plate armor is real protection instead of an advertisement for Dex or Cha damage.

AD&D kobolds were chihuahua-men in the same way that gnolls were hyena-men. 3.5e kobolds have 20s in some stats, are dragon sorcerers with Color Spray and bear trap throwing rogues with sneak attack. Where they used to be minions and slaves they have become allies to dragons and lichs who dominate ogres and trolls.

I don't think that you can really do justice to Tucker's Kobolds in 3.5e, they're just short people with spells and traps now.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-11-19, 11:16 PM

Of course, a single Stinking Cloud spell pretty much shuts down all the kobolds, use Summon Monster I to trip all the traps ahead of you (or just use the reserve feat that summons up disposable minions for you) and continue progressing.

Heck, if the party is level 10-12, a Cloudkill is tailor made to kill kobolds en masse. Any hole a kobold is small enough to squeeze through, so can the cloudkill. Fire and forget, just keep sending the cloudkill through the holes and let it just keep going, slaughtering kobolds by the hundreds, while you continue on your merry way.

For every iron door, we have an equal and opposite HULK SMASH! This is one of those things beatsticks are very good at doing. If it takes the beatstick more than one round to go through an iron door, there's already something horribly wrong.

The problem here is that quality overmatches quantity in 3.5. Back in 2e, sure... Tucker's Kobolds were flippin' nasty. But these days, Protection from Energy and a moderate amount of DR is more than enough to be able to ignore them in any mid-level game.

Rubik

2013-11-19, 11:21 PM

Of course, a single Stinking Cloud spell pretty much shuts down all the kobolds, use Summon Monster I to trip all the traps ahead of you (or just use the reserve feat that summons up disposable minions for you) and continue progressing.I'm pretty sure those wouldn't work on the trap encounters Lycanthromancer mentioned in the other thread.

Heck, if the party is level 10-12, a Cloudkill is tailor made to kill kobolds en masse. Any hole a kobold is small enough to squeeze through, so can the cloudkill. Fire and forget, just keep sending the cloudkill through the holes and let it just keep going, slaughtering kobolds by the hundreds, while you continue on your merry way.And all those clouds would just go right down to the bottom level of the compound, since the place is designed for water and sewage runoff, like the other thread suggested. You'd be able to get the kobolds you caught in the AoE, but then it's gone, without other issues.

For every iron door, we have an equal and opposite HULK SMASH! This is one of those things beatsticks are very good at doing. If it takes the beatstick more than one round to go through an iron door, there's already something horribly wrong.

The problem here is that quality overmatches quantity in 3.5. Back in 2e, sure... Tucker's Kobolds were flippin' nasty. But these days, Protection from Energy and a moderate amount of DR is more than enough to be able to ignore them in any mid-level game.If you say so.

Pickford

2013-11-19, 11:26 PM

Tuckers Kobolds is about planning ahead and maximizing utility of each creature. In essence, nobody is standing around, and no unit (kobold) has the luxury of being a hulking bruiser who doesn't have to think about what impact their action will have.

Typical ploys: Nets, they require a ranged touch attack and entangle targets. This fouls up everyone, casters, melee, rogues, everybody. The best part is, it costs your target a full-round action to get out of, but only took a single standard action to use. When engaging melee, do so in shield walls (i.e. Front kobold with defensive things, rear kobold with long spear) or in a phalanx (all spears).

Casters should be harried in a circle (the better to avoid many being taken by a single aoe spell), and archers should ready actions to shoot the caster if they attempt to cast (enough damage and it'll disrupt the spell). If they really dumped str (think: grey elf with starting str of 8) there's a not unreasonable chance the kobolds can simply over power through grappling (After all, a kobold who buffed str to 18 will still have a 14 str, effectively a +4 when grappling someone with 6 str)

Are you familiar with the term from medieval castles of a 'murder-hole'? Basically, as defenders (kobolds) you allow attackers (adventurers) to proceed down a small enclosed space. This is similar to trapping rabbits or other small game when you are lost in the woods without supplies and must trap game to survive.

The best traps are ones where the target don't realize they are walking into it until it is too late. For the kobolds this would be contructing a small (5' wide) corridor, after the adventurers have entered the corridor, the kobolds block both ends with debris (it doesn't really matter what as long as it delays the adventurers a significant period, say,drop some logs in place, or close and bar some heavy doors with barrels behind them, whatever. Now that your target is trapped, this is where the murder-holes come into play.

Typically overhead (or if you favor the kobolds sweeping burning trash, you could have small holes at foot level), and from the sides (with spears/crossbows prepped, probably with poison) are holes through which defenders dump filth, boiling oil, biting insects, etc... and usually finish it off by stabbing spears down skewering any who survive, briefly.

bekeleven

2013-11-19, 11:46 PM

I agree that the whole point of Tucker's Kobolds is that while they're one of the weakest creatures in the game, with a grand total of 1d4 hit points each and no special abilities, they can potentially ruin an impetuous level 10 party through tactics alone. They succeed entirely through their use of dirt-cheap nonmagical equipment (i.e. not even worth looting) and their wits.

This always pissed me off. Tucker's Kobolds, as presented in the story, have massive stockpiles of money. Obviously it was run in another edition, but if porting:

1 - If you throw oil, it takes 2 rounds to to and doesn't work half of the time. A single flask of alchemist's fire is worth more than a peasant makes in a month. At this point your firebombs are either costing the equivalent of a +1 weapon every couple rounds or you have so many excess kobolds that they hit CR10 without modification.

2 - Against a 10th level party, Kobolds with mundane equipment are only hitting with bows/crossbows on a 20 (maybe 19). See above: 20 kobolds firing, every round, for every hit to the PCs. If they're taking multiple hits, then the challenge is already CR7 and rising fast.

awa

2013-11-19, 11:59 PM

i agree i to have always felt these types kobold just blew through tens of thousands of gold every fight not to mention they don't have lives or live in any kind of society just an always ready death trap.

they are rarely functioning homes with food and water sources just traps on top of traps maned 24 hours a day 7 days a week by a races whose only function is to annoy player and make the dm feel smug.

Irk

2013-11-20, 12:02 AM

I mean, there's always craft skills

A Tad Insane

2013-11-20, 12:03 AM

Slipperychicken

2013-11-20, 12:10 AM

1 - If you throw oil, it takes 2 rounds to to and doesn't work half of the time. A single flask of alchemist's fire is worth more than a peasant makes in a month. At this point your firebombs are either costing the equivalent of a +1 weapon every couple rounds or you have so many excess kobolds that they hit CR10 without modification.

IIRC, it says that additional enemies after a certain number (13th or 12th?) don't count toward CR -if the PCs can beat that many, then they can beat more.

The kobolds would use oil because Alchemist's Fire costs money they don't have. As for flaming oil, it's not such a big deal if the kobolds are only throwing a flask every other round. It's still a touch attack, and still deals 1 splash damage even if it misses. If the PCs have high touch AC, then they can just target grid intersections for AC 5. Even kobolds hit that on a 2.

So they are not blowing through "tens of thousands of gold" every fight. Even if they needed 1000 oil flasks for a fight (and even counting the 50% chance to fail to ignite, and assuming they never land a direct hit, that's still roughly 500 points of AOE splash damage, which would kill even trolls), that would only cost 100 gold worth of oil.

awa

2013-11-20, 12:21 AM

one protection from fire still makes you completely immune to that tactic and your kobolds will die by the dozens if they just sit there and huck oil would result in one successful throw every 4 rounds per kobold.

with the short range of the oil the kobolds will be in melee and dying like flies before they get a second one.

So your right if the kobolds just bring oil to the fight they wont be throwing away thousands of gold they will just be dead.

Story

2013-11-20, 12:22 AM

One thing to remember, tucker's kobolds were from AD&D, where they could just fire crossbows and hit something because the target was 10 feet away, and only and idiot could miss that. In 3.5, you could be standing point blank range, take 6 seconds to aim, and still miss because physics! Giving 3.5 kobolds a few sorcerers seems like it wouldn't be deviating from the point too much, at least in my opinion.

Reminds me of how Tomb of Horrors is much less threatening now that saving throws are a thing.

And to be fair, even a point blank shot isn't really point blank unless you're coup de gracing. You're assumed to be moving within a 5ft square, so missing is still somewhat plausible. Plus magical deflection bonuses.

Tvtyrant

2013-11-20, 12:26 AM

It is too bad there are no cheap pikes, or you could make an awesome encounter where dozens of kobolds use Aid Another using pikes, spears and knives until their ballista gunner cannot possibly miss. Have a group of them aid the ballista user (only the aider has to be in melee, not the actual attacker) and then have the gunner drop to the ground so that other Kobolds can reload it on their turn. Chain-gunning ballista shots on the cheap!

Frosty

2013-11-20, 12:30 AM

Usually, only up to 4 can aid another. Depending in the AC of the characters, it may not be enough.

Tvtyrant

2013-11-20, 12:33 AM

Usually, only up to 4 can aid another. Depending in the AC of the characters, it may not be enough.

Where are you getting this from? I don't see anything about that.

TrollCapAmerica

2013-11-20, 12:34 AM

I think its important to remember the LESSON of Tuckers Kobolds here.Its not simply cool tricks to do with Kobolds because the fluff supports a love of traps and ambushes its a reminder that you can be more tactical and creative with the monsters you throw at your PCs

This was a much bigger deal in 1st/2nd ed because options were more limited the little buggers were harder to pin down AND there was an alarming tendency to just toss monsters around anywhere and have them waddle out to get poked to death by big sharp things.Tuckers Kobolds reminded us it didnt have to be so simple and if the little chihuahua/lizard-people could be this much of a pain in the rear how bad could a Lich/Dragon/Demon/etc be if you put the same amount of planning into them?

In a game im running right now the PCs are going into a giant Graveyard filled with undead.They are sitting at 9th level so they are wielding a fairly impressive array of abilities but not terribly game breaking [Tier 3s mostly].All the intelligent undead im using graduated from the "Tuckers Kobolds school or ticking PCs off" and I have high hopes for the collection of Ghouls and Shadows I have in a half collapsed catacomb to provide and interesting and memorable challenge for the group

Phelix-Mu

2013-11-20, 12:34 AM

I tend to think that, if dozens of flasks of oil are being tossed at a character/party per round, then there is a good argument to be made for being able to catch one. And then it's a simple matter to return it to sender; as long as it lands nearby the kobolds, the flames should prevent them from having line of sight to the squares they are attacking.

For that matter, with that much burning oil, the flames should grant a measure of concealment anyway. As long as the party moved out of currently burning squares, the whole issue might be much more difficult to adjudicate. Though, with enough encircling kobolds, the assault probably would continue.

Would be frightfully funny if the kobolds unintentionally smoked themselves out of their hiding holes with this tactic, though.

awa

2013-11-20, 12:37 AM

also balista don't actually do all that much damge (3d8) with a starting accuracy of -6 you will need a lot of kobolds to be able to make it accurate enough to have a good chance to hit
and great cleave and fire ball are going make all those aiders very unhappy.

so this tactic looks like you will get dozens of kobolds killed for 3d8 maybe 6d8 damge. Theirs a point where the real smart tactic is surrender

edit

"In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. "

never mind it's not legal anyhow

Slipperychicken

2013-11-20, 12:56 AM

The oil flasks low range is the range increment of 10ft, so they can stay outside melee. They would stay outside of reach, throwing through the fortifications (murder-holes, arrow-slits) they have constructed, and stepping back or dropping prone once the throw is made so that one couldn't hit them with melee attacks from the corridor without somehow getting through the walls. If the PCs need any amount of time to deal with the walls, the kobods in that wall would already have fallen back through their network of tiny tunnels while the other wall segments' kobolds continue using their own attacks, and the traps presumably do their jobs too.

I think its important to remember the LESSON of Tuckers Kobolds here.Its not simply cool tricks to do with Kobolds because the fluff supports a love of traps and ambushes its a reminder that you can be more tactical and creative with the monsters you throw at your PCs

As I recall, it also had something to do with the PCs' lack of preparedness for such unconventional threats. They were able to handle straight-up fights with demons (i.e. trade blows until someone falls over, rinse with holy water and repeat), but they simply didn't bring the tools (things like protection from fire and arrows) which would have allowed them to cope.

I don't think anyone is saying that a fortified cave full of CR 1/4 mooks is an unstoppable force; just that an unprepared/unexpecting party can easily fall prey to guerrilla tactics.

Phelix-Mu

2013-11-20, 01:08 AM

I don't think anyone is saying that a fortified cave full of CR 1/4 mooks is an unstoppable force; just that an unprepared/unexpecting party can easily fall prey to guerrilla tactics.

This last bit is a truism, and should be blatantly obvious to any character with a sense of danger. Sadly, the game can sometimes be a little ho-hum if the DM lets the players get into their groove. As far as I'm concerned, this is fail DMing; characters that don't have a good grasp of fear and knowledge of their own mortality in the vastness of all that is possible as they coast along have been done a disservice by their DM. Life is hard, and fools die by the countless hundreds. PCs should learn to be prepared, and so join the lists of the survivors.

This is mildly symptomatic of campaigns that start at higher levels. If you never had to fear for the skin of your 1st-3rd level character, then you might not realize just how close death is, even at 10th level. The lesson is much harder to deliver to higher-level parties as well.

Tvtyrant

2013-11-20, 01:32 AM

Story

2013-11-20, 01:43 AM

This last bit is a truism, and should be blatantly obvious to any character with a sense of danger.

I think it doesn't apply quite so much to tier 1s, especially with optimization. You really can be prepared for a wide variety of circumstances.

Malphas's Birds Eye View for example, allows scouting through the Kobolds tunnels* as long as they don't have doors, and also provides infinite summon spam for triggering traps. But that's something you'd be doing anyway. My Anima Mage kept Malphas bound all the time while adventuring because it's just so useful in nearly all circumstances.

* They can't fly, but ravens still have a walk speed, and as tiny creatures they fit just fine.

Rubik

2013-11-20, 01:51 AM

Something makes me think that the kobolds won't spring a trampbush (trap/ambush) on a bird. And if they do, it won't amount to much more than a few crossbow bolts to the featherbrain.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-20, 02:08 AM

Rubik

2013-11-20, 02:10 AM

Let's also not forget that kobolds have darkvision while most pc races don't. They can hide in the complete darkness outside of the pc's lighted area. Remember, no LoS means no hitting them with targetted spell effects and a 50% miss chance with rays.They also have a 30' movement rate, which is 50% better than most other Small characters. I'm sure their scouts have levels of monk, and the Dash feat as well, so they can outrun most others handily.

Monks have a use after all: running away! :smallamused:

awa

2013-11-20, 08:37 AM

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-20, 08:53 AM

at more then one range increment you can miss, with splash weapons
nothing is stopping the pcs from the throwing vial back through the murder pcs holes or just lobbing a fire ball inside to clear out huge sections at a time.

Vials of alchemical items shatter when they're used, even if they miss. You can only throw it back if you catch it. As for fireball or any other spell, remember that LoE requires an opening no smaller than 1 square foot.

Fouredged Sword

2013-11-20, 09:02 AM

That and their tunnels are broken up by grates with locked doors. The door is purely to allow large supplies to be moved around. The kobolds themselves just go through the grate itself by squeezing as a tiny creature. The door has no mechanism to open it on the outside. The kobolds can fire off 10-20 heavy crossbow bolts then simply run, and the party has to bash down the door before they can follow. Mix well with tiny sized paths through difficult terrain (allowing the kobolds to move normaly and slowing everyone else.) and traps, and you have a situation that allows the low level mooks to be much more powerful than their CR suggests.

You enter the warren and you hit a area where you are getting fired on by 5-10 kobold crossbowmen behind cover. You rush them and you hit traps. You don't rush them, they run down the warren hole and behind a grate barricade. You disable or trigger the traps and bust down the door. You hit another area of covered crossbowmen, traps, and hard to cover ground.

This happens 2-3 times before they change things up.

It's not impossible to bypass or defeat, but if you do start doing so, they abandon all the levels you are bypassing and group for a confrontation.

Besides that, anything important has no 5ft passage to it. They are linked by 6" holes carved in 30-40 ft of stone and filled with right angle turns. Good luck getting through that.

Story

2013-11-20, 09:43 AM

Let's also not forget that kobolds have darkvision while most pc races don't. They can hide in the complete darkness outside of the pc's lighted area. Remember, no LoS means no hitting them with targetted spell effects and a 50% miss chance with rays.

Darkvision is a 2nd level hours/lvl spell. And some races (Lesser Aasimar, Necropolitan) do have darkvision. Plus anyone with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphisis.

AMFV

2013-11-20, 09:43 AM

This reminds me of a time that a DM tried to convert an AD&D adventure to 3.5. We were level 9 at the time and one of the main plot points involved arresting the players. Basically what happened, to make a long story short is that the guards surrounded us, and I, playing an archivist, said , "Oh ****, TELEPORT!" and was gone. Recent Order of the Sticks support that this is what a savvy caster will do when things go south, then they can scry and anticipate what's coming next, they already know about the ambush.

Short of a weirdstone there's no real way to prevent this. That again gets us to the problem of having casters who are more powerful on the kobold's side. Even an unoptimized wizard will likely be able to escape almost any encounter before coming back prepared. So even if the Macguffin is in their traps there is no way to force the players to play by the kobold's rules.

Remember that spells roughly double in power every two levels. As such with a 10th level caster (capable of fifth level spells), he will have options almost four times as powerful as the Kobold casters will. While they may try to use the action economy against the players, the players will almost always have a get out of jail free card, and furthermore an unavoidable one.

Story

2013-11-20, 10:05 AM

Besides that, anything important has no 5ft passage to it. They are linked by 6" holes carved in 30-40 ft of stone and filled with right angle turns. Good luck getting through that.

Then they start tunneling, which they were going to do anyway because anywhere the Kobolds want you to go is obviously a trap anyway.

Incidentally, a small character with Reduce Person can fit in any tunnel a Kobold can.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-20, 10:14 AM

Darkvision is a 2nd level hours/lvl spell. And some races (Lesser Aasimar, Necropolitan) do have darkvision. Plus anyone with a Collar of Umbral Metamorphisis.

That's between one and four spell slots less for evading or killing the kobolds and it -may- not be a spell that's available if the caster didn't plan on going into a kobold warren today or if he instead thought a mundane light source would be sufficient. Why burn a spell slot when you have an everburning torch.

Fouredged Sword

2013-11-20, 10:18 AM

inuyasha

2013-11-20, 10:19 AM

I would recommend a few things:

Make the walls out of metal, so the players can't use rock to mud/stoneshape

have everything trapped except for a few highly valuble things, so that the players become paranoid enough to not pick up the highly valuble things

have some trap like a dragon head, this is designed by kobolds so it breathes fire right? Nope, it shoots a plunger (like the one used in toilets) with a note that says *bang* on it in explosive runes. Remember, these aren't demons/yugoloths/devils, these are weak little mischievous dudes who like to terrorize their pray.

narrow spaces! make the players duck down, and make the spaces tight so they can go through, and tight enough to make fireballs suck, but not too tight as to limit them, (unless you really want to).

and finally, have fun! Don't be afraid to break the rules a little, remember rule 0, but don't abuse it.

theres my 2 cents

Slipperychicken

2013-11-20, 10:32 AM

Yes, but then you are sending a small character through a tunnel into a warren of kobolds. If you are lucky, they grapple the character (who is now tiny compared to their small) and take them hostage.

Now that's one I never even thought of: Have 48 of the Kobolds gang up into a DMGII Mob, then grapple people with their collective +34 to grapple.

Besides that, anything important has no 5ft passage to it. They are linked by 6" holes carved in 30-40 ft of stone and filled with right angle turns. Good luck getting through that.

It's one thing for kobolds to take advantage of their size, but that's just not fair :smallbiggrin:

Also, there are very few RAW ways to catch splash weapons before they hit you or break (Deflect/Catch arrows might work?). Why do we think this is possible?

Story

2013-11-20, 10:32 AM

Yes, but then you are sending a small character through a tunnel into a warren of kobolds. If you are lucky, they grapple the character (who is now tiny compared to their small) and take them hostage.

What kind of PC will not be one shotting every Kobold in sight?

Anyway, it's true that it can take a while to dismantle and tunnel through a large underground warren. But that's true whether the kobolds are there or not. At this point you're not fighting CR 1/4 kobolds. You're fighting an environmental obstacle with no listed CR.

Fouredged Sword

2013-11-20, 10:34 AM

Also, lots of right angles. The only straight sections should open up to a wall with crossbow murder holes. Fireball does little good if the hallway (already a 2.5 x 2.5 tunnel) makes a right turn every 30 ft.

I wouldn't worry about stoneshape/stone to mud. Just put enough stone around so that even if the party opens up a small section, the kobolds just abandon it for fortifications further in.

Remember, the warren is constantly digging deeper. They fill in the old living spaces as they go, leaving deeper and deeper layers of defenses as they mine. The older the warren, the more layers of defenses it will have.

Story

2013-11-20, 11:19 AM

I just realized that at 10th level, Dominate Person is in play. Guess it's time for Enchantment to shine.

Rubik

2013-11-20, 11:24 AM

I just realized that at 10th level, Dominate Person is in play. Guess it's time for Enchantment to shine.That only affects one kobold if you actually manage to target one. Since there are a few hundred kobolds in the compound, it wouldn't take much to disable the one you grabbed by simply ganging up on him.

And you're using an awful lot of spells just to survive against 1/3 CR opponents, not to mention that you're assuming you've got just the right ones prepared.

Are you sure this isn't an appropriate challenge for a level 10 party?

TripleD

2013-11-20, 11:29 AM

I'm planning on running a similar scenario in a few levels for the players in my campaign. (Bell, Book, and Candle folks, stay out!)

And our brave Kobold Warriors? A mere Rogue1/Fi
Tucker’s Army

Rogue1/Fighter2
Str 11
Dex 20
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 16
Cha 13

1 Craven
2 Tunnel Rat
3 Tunnel Fighting, Weapon Finesse

BAB 2
Attack: Spear +9 (1d6/x3)
OR Longbow +9 (1d6/x3)

AC 10+5(dex)+3(armor)+1(natural)+1(size)=20
HP 26

Fort 3+3=6
Ref 2+5=7
Will 0+3=2

Skills
Totals: Stealth +15, Acrobatics +11, Escape Artist +9, Disable Device +9, Perception +7, Craft Trap +11, UMD +5, Profession (Miner) +6, Bluff +5, Know (History) +5, Climb +5
1 Acrobatics 4, Escape Artist 4, Stealth 4, Perception 4, Craft (Trap) 4, Climb 4, UMD 4, Profession (Miner) 4, Bluff 4, Disable Device 4, Know(History) 2
2 Stealth 5, Climb 5, Craft (Trap) 5, Jump 2
3 Stealth 6, Craft (Trap) 6, Jump 5

Equipment:
MW Spear
MW Shortbow
MW Studded Leather
Alchemist’s Fire x4
Tanglefoot Bag x4

How are you getting +9 to attack with the spear? By my calculations it should only be +3

Frosty

2013-11-20, 11:35 AM

Yes, but then you are sending a small character through a tunnel into a warren of kobolds. If you are lucky, they grapple the character (who is now tiny compared to their small) and take them hostage.

If you are unlucky, you squirm yourself into a massive pile of traps/ambushes.

Yes, one can dig up/destroy/siege a kobold fortress. They are CR 1/3 monsters. In the end, vs magic, they loose. The goal is that it is really just not worth the effort. A sorcerer can dig through 10ft square by 10ft square with disintegrate and there is little they can do. 4 months later, when said sorcerer gets to the treasure hoard, he finds the whole place evacuated through teleport traps (disarmed after the non-casters evacuated)
1) Disintegrate is the wrong way to do it. Again, a few Earthquakes and very few kobolds will have the chance to evacuate. Killing the kobolds from outside is trivial with magic.

2) Teleport traps? What are these? Tucker's Rich Kobolds? They're lucky to have any 2nd level spells at all!

3) It is worth the effort if the goal is to clear the area of a kobold infestation so they don't raid the surroundings anymore. The kobolds spend decades trapping up their homes. Now it's gone. Which side lost more resources? The kobolds, even if they all escape, now have to find a new place and re-trap it all up. Spells are a renewable resource, and don't take y ears to set-up.

4) Story: Dominate Person is the wrong way to go about it, unless all you want is do dominate one, leave with it, have it tell you about every trap, and come back the next day prepared.

awa

2013-11-20, 12:19 PM

a shadow dancer rogue can basically solo the kobold warren by level 10 disarming all the traps and using the shadow to kill off the kobolds hiding in the walls.

a cleric could flood the whole thing with a 4th level spell

summoned earth elemental created through a reserve feat could kill the kobolds one by one going through the walls

rock to mud can turn 200 cubic feet of rock to mud with a single casting at level 10 which if well planned to target the supports of this honey comb of tunnels could very well collapse the whole thing

a level 11 party could put a symbol of sleep on their shields and just walk through the dungeon every kobold dropping unconscious instantly every time they get within 60 feet so long as the dungeon did not take more then 100 minutes.

there's tons of ways to make a low level kobold warren largely irrelevant all in core with no real optimization

edit symbol of charm have your new buddies tell you where all the traps are any kobold that tries to stop you is just a new friend waiting to happen

edit 2 use contagion like say cackle fever those incredible tight corridors will make it nearly impossible the them to avoid infection and with the wisdom loss they will not have the common sense to take appropriate precautions

Story

2013-11-20, 01:13 PM

And you're using an awful lot of spells just to survive against 1/3 CR opponents, not to mention that you're assuming you've got just the right ones prepared.

Are you sure this isn't an appropriate challenge for a level 10 party?

It's not a CR 1/3 challenge, it's an environmental obstacle with no listed CR. The kobolds do not appreciably increase the challenge.

And assuming a Wizard will have Polymorph prepared isn't exactly a stretch. I'd be more surprised if there was a level 7+ Wizard who DIDN'T have Polymorph prepared (unless they're in a low op party and deliberately holding back). Druids cast SNA spontaneously of course.

Assuming Enchantment isn't banned is a much bigger stretch of course, but that's just pointing out yet another way to bypass this.

4) Story: Dominate Person is the wrong way to go about it, unless all you want is do dominate one, leave with it, have it tell you about every trap, and come back the next day prepared.

That's what I was planning. You only need 1 to find all the traps since presumably the defenders know where the traps are so they can avoid them themselves. Plus they probably contributed to the initial building and creation.

If you're lucky, they'll know where the treasure is and you can just teleport/tunnel straight there.

PraxisVetli

2013-11-20, 01:27 PM

have some trap like a dragon head, this is designed by kobolds so it breathes fire right? Nope, it shoots a plunger (like the one used in toilets) with a note that says *bang* on it in explosive runes. Remember, these aren't demons/yugoloths/devils, these are weak little mischievous dudes who like to terrorize their prey.

theres my 2 cents
Easily the best thing in this thread.
Priceless.

Pickford

2013-11-20, 01:37 PM

That's what I was planning. You only need 1 to find all the traps since presumably the defenders know where the traps are so they can avoid them themselves. Plus they probably contributed to the initial building and creation.

If you're lucky, they'll know where the treasure is and you can just teleport/tunnel straight there.

Regular teleport won't work that way, if you haven't seen it personally (via magic, for example) then you can't actually teleport there, it results in a 'false destination' which is a similar area (so, there might be treasure in there!) or a mishap (oops)

edit: You're describing greater teleport (using a description to hit the target)

Frosty

2013-11-20, 01:40 PM

Easily the best thing in this thread.
Priceless.I do love the idea, although Tucker's Kobolds really need to stay away from too much spellcasting.

Zancloufer

2013-11-20, 03:06 PM

How are you getting +9 to attack with the spear? By my calculations it should only be +3

2 levels in fighter = +2, Weapon Finesse with 20 dex = +5, masterwork weapon = another +1 that's already +8. Not sure what all those feats do though so I could see another +1.

Also, if your using level 4-6 spells to get past CR ~2 encounters at level 10 doesn't that mean your using up some valuable resources? Could always have a number of annoying encounters with the Kobolds and put a CR 8-10 Dragon at the end. The party will get pissed, waste some higher level slots and then have to fight a CR appropriate encounter with most of their higher level spell slots blown.

Frosty

2013-11-20, 03:11 PM

But it's NOT a CR2 encounter. The way these traps are built makes their CR a lot bigger. CR is directly proportional to how difficult the encounter is get past. So you gotta keep that into account. So yeah, make them use resources, and give them the appropriate exp for it.

And don't forget, the kobolds are feeling the pain too. The best thing they can do is try to convince the adventurers to leave. This is the kobolds' home. It REALLY sucks if they lose it. Whereas the adventurers refresh their spells the next day. All this is assuming the PCs aren't rocking infinite-resource abilities.

Telonius

2013-11-20, 03:15 PM

2 levels in fighter = +2, Weapon Finesse with 20 dex = +5, masterwork weapon = another +1 that's already +8. Not sure what all those feats do though so I could see another +1.

Also, if your using level 4-6 spells to get past CR ~2 encounters at level 10 doesn't that mean your using up some valuable resources? Could always have a number of annoying encounters with the Kobolds and put a CR 8-10 Dragon at the end. The party will get pissed, waste some higher level slots and then have to fight a CR appropriate encounter with most of their higher level spell slots blown.

Small size, +1, for +9 total.

Particle_Man

2013-11-20, 03:22 PM

For theme, you should play the music from the movie "Gremlins" when the kobolds are engaging the party. :smallsmile:

Story

2013-11-20, 03:25 PM

The way I see it is a bit like this

Suppose there's a permanent Prismatic Sphere with a kobold inside, and that kobold is holding something valuable so the party can't just ignore it. Is this a CR 1/4 challenge? The average level 1 party wouldn't be able to beat it. In low op, even much higher level parties will have trouble.

Now suppose the kobold wasn't there and it was just an item inside a sphere. What is it now, CR0? All the same challenges apply. Clearly the real challenge here is the sphere and the kobold is just a minor speedbump that shouldn't affect the CR at all.

This isn't about making kobolds into a threat by cleverly exploiting the environment. This is about adding speedbumps to a difficult environmental obstacle.

Norin

2013-11-20, 03:33 PM

No way - Kobolds are no threat.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C3T9BVKFe9w/UWeWUjOoglI/AAAAAAAABkQ/xZReAZa-CRA/s1600/kobolds%5B1%5D.jpg

Phelix-Mu

2013-11-20, 03:34 PM

I know it's fun to discuss this endlessly (and it's the internet, and that's rather the whole point), but isn't this just an example of DM op v PC op? If we reduce it to an arms race, it's hardly surprising that the DM can employ superior planning on behalf of the kobolds to come up with kobolds that are mighty scary.

The problem with a theoretical discussion of how much optimization can be used on each side is that it's theoretical, and therefor we can't tell how much metagaming is going on in our theorizing of what might happen. We can suppose that x or y might be the case on the given day, but, increasingly with higher level, there are context-specific things that are crucial to predicting performance.

For instance, low level parties are going to rely on rumors, very primitive divination, and mundane scouting to get eyes on the area. This makes the ambush about ten times more dangerous, as incomplete info is only marginally better than no info.

The high level party, on the other hand, can employ long-term scrying and charms to scout the area, get inside info, recruit spies and so forth. With high-level resources, the players could probably just afford to buy off the kobolds, set them up in a different area with enough bling and food to live like kings for a couple years. Less ambitiously, there are counter-ambush tactics, the whole kobold burrow could be undermined or flooded (blizzard plus warm weather creates a stupid amount of water), or bypassed. Personally, I'd probably just try to seal up the whole area and then flood as much as possible. The kobolds will be forced to flee through one of their hidden escape routes; chart each escape route used, seal them up, then get some water breathing and head in to loot (or whatever the reason was we are bothering with this in the first place), sealing the entrance behind me. Most traps won't function underwater. Wand of stoneshape for the win.

The premise of traps and ambushes is that the target doesn't know they are there. 10th level parties that wander around blind and ignorant deserve to die to flurry of oil flasks or whatever other cheap tricks the DM has handed the kobolds.

Shining Wrath

2013-11-20, 04:13 PM

Tucker's Kobolds doesn't port well from AD&D, as noted.
However, the basic idea for a DM is this ...

Lots of monsters at a CR several levels lower than the party
Who are smart enough to use lead sheeting (cheap!) to mess up scrying
Who know the way around their own lair much, much better than you do, even if you COULD scry. Imagine that you've used Google Street View to look over my neighborhood. Are you going to pick my house out faster than I am?
Who use cheap traps a lot
Whose goal is not to kill you, but to punish you for passing through their turf. In meta terms, they want you to use up resources

If, as a DM, I can force a party to burn several top-level or near-top-level spells to get past pathetic cannon fodder that provide no treasure worth having, that's win. If I do it right, it's also challenging and fun for the players - even if they curse my tiny treasure :smallbiggrin:

It does take planning.

Red Fel

2013-11-20, 04:27 PM

The bottom line is that Tucker's Kobolds doesn't actually require kobolds. The scenario is about embracing the idea that, with proper preparations and tactics, a small, highly capable swarm of otherwise low-CR enemies without class levels could nonetheless thwart a high-level party.

It doesn't require kobolds - you could really use anything. The reason kobolds are perfect for the scenario is that they are a perfect storm of harmless. They are low-CR, they are ubiquitous and hated, they are weak and flimsy. They also have various abilities (small size, Slim Build) that make them perfect for squeezing into tiny crevices behind the walls, ideal for setting up the scenario in question.

But the point - the key point - is to highlight for the players the futility of their PCs' power. It's to say, "Oh yeah, big strong guy? Oh yeah, mighty wizard? You just got your butts handed to you by lizard-critters." It deliberately de-emphasizes the combat, because, let's face it, it's a combat the heroes can't win if you do it right.

It's a fine scenario if your goal is to get the players to hurry through the area, or make them flee, or force them to do social RP instead of combat, or if you simply want to deflate their egos a little. But it also comes across as a bit sadistic.

Players will not have the preparation, the resources, and possibly the know-how to defeat Tucker's Kobolds. They can flee. Perhaps they might even return with more prepared firepower. But as a one-off encounter, without proper preparation (and is there really any way to prepare for Tucker's Kobolds?) they will lose. And it will sting. It will hurt egos and feelings, because it is a Kobayashi Maru scenario - it's designed to be unwinnable.

Phelix-Mu

2013-11-20, 04:35 PM

I dunno. As DM, there are legion ways to design unwinnable scenarios that will take the chip off the pc's collective shoulder. That's not all that hard. Props for doing it creatively with "Mostly Harmless" critters.

Moreover, is this really something worth doing? If it's really unwinnable, it's not a challenge, it's just sadistic. I like my obligatory sadism mixed with a grain of accomplishment for the party, and barely surviving a horde of kobolds doesn't really count as an accomplishment.

Shining Wrath

2013-11-20, 04:35 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-11-20, 04:36 PM

And to the inevitable response of "divination spells", I reply in advance "Kobolds are smart enough to use lead sheets".

Does lead really block all divination? I thought it was just a subset that it blocked....

Scow2

2013-11-20, 04:49 PM

Does lead really block all divination? I thought it was just a subset that it blocked....Doesn't block the divinations that matter. Merely the "Detect" and "Locate" ones.

Shining Wrath

2013-11-20, 04:50 PM

Does lead really block all divination? I thought it was just a subset that it blocked....

I think there's nothing that blocks Contact Other Plane - but the spell description there makes it clear that the Other Plane Guy doesn't want to talk to you and is going to give you terse verbal answers to your questions rather than showing you what you're getting in to.

There's spells to show you a location or a creature - but who's going to scry for "Xyynnth, the ordinary Kobold in the group of 500 kobolds"?

And then there's spells that let you send floating eyeballs ahead of you - which might be blocked by something as simple as a door.

Lead blocks some things like True Seeing.

Story

2013-11-20, 04:50 PM

Players will not have the preparation, the resources, and possibly the know-how to defeat Tucker's Kobolds. They can flee. Perhaps they might even return with more prepared firepower. But as a one-off encounter, without proper preparation (and is there really any way to prepare for Tucker's Kobolds?) they will lose. And it will sting. It will hurt egos and feelings, because it is a Kobayashi Maru scenario - it's designed to be unwinnable.

This is the part I disagree with. High level spellcasters are just that good. My 12th level Anima Mage could probably solo the entire warren using only his normal buff routine. Admittedly, that's higher op then many people play at.

As far as using different monsters, how about Bearded Devils? Their at will Greater Teleport means they can actually pull some nasty tricks.

Frosty

2013-11-20, 04:54 PM

Oh yeah, how should the kobolds deal with a druid who wildshapes into an earth elemental (and thus can glide through earth and all that)?

Story

2013-11-20, 04:56 PM

At the level where you get elemental wildshape, I'd probably pick Thoqqua over Earth Elemental. Thoqquas are fun.

Rubik

2013-11-20, 05:00 PM

At the level where you get elemental wildshape, I'd probably pick Thoqqua over Earth Elemental. Thoqquas are fun.Still no tremorsense, so that's another spell slot you'll have to use.

awa

2013-11-20, 05:03 PM

Ive played with dms who thought a good challenges was to make an encounter so tedious and boring we broke out the high level spells just to make it end faster. I don't consider it good dming and i certainly didn't consider it fun, at the end of the day i usually felt like i would have rather have been home reading a book then go through that dungeon.

All these traps and tactics ive seen described here either strike me as either ineffective, annoying and something i would be bored to tears with in a game or completely illogical from a world building perspective.

tactics to make weaker enemies stronger fine tactics to make trivial encounters "unbeatable" or punish the players for wanting to play adventurers bad.

just because you can do something does not mean you should. And in my experience tuckers (insert monster of choice here) is one of those things.

Story

2013-11-20, 05:10 PM

Oh yeah, how should the kobolds deal with a druid who wildshapes into an earth elemental (and thus can glide through earth and all that)?

It just occurred to me that Alter Self into a Kobold would be pretty effective and also win massive irony points.

Hey look at me, I can go anywhere you can except that I also have 20 str, 100+ hp, and high level magic.

Frosty

2013-11-20, 05:13 PM

I'm okay with these things, as long as it makes sense for the creatures to actually do the things they do, given their living arrangements and availability of fund. If they really like deathtraps in their homes, and want to guard their homes ferociously, that's their choice. However, if kobolds consistently do that, then they should develop a reputation for deadly traps, and adventurers would go in blind.

Shining Wrath

2013-11-20, 05:14 PM

It just occurred to me that Alter Self into a Kobold would be pretty effective and also win massive irony points.

Hey look at me, I can go anywhere you can except that I also have 20 str, 100+ hp, and high level magic.

And then cast Charisma / Diplomacy boost spells and convince the kobolds to not only let the party pass, but give you all their treasure.

There's just no stopping a Wizard. All you can do is burn some slots.

lunar2

2013-11-20, 05:23 PM

remember that as per races of the dragon, kobolds do have a reputation as master trapsmiths. they are also rich. like, really rich. a tucker's kobolds scenario that relies on complicated traps and expensive materials is fine in 3.5, because that fits the kobolds' fluff.

Frosty

2013-11-20, 05:38 PM

Really? Kobolds not under the aegis of a dragon are rich?

Rubik

2013-11-20, 05:43 PM

Really? Kobolds not under the aegis of a dragon are rich?Sure. Why wouldn't wealthy patrons hire kobolds to protect their estates?

Traps cost a lot of money, after all.

The lair is just their summer home.

Story

2013-11-20, 05:50 PM

It occurred to me that there are also spells to detect lead. So unless they coated the entire complex in lead, you can find the treasure room anyway.

Frosty

2013-11-20, 05:52 PM

Sure. Why wouldn't wealthy patrons hire kobolds to protect their estates?

Traps cost a lot of money, after all.

The lair is just their summer home.Then these are now Tucker's Rich Kobolds, totally different than the original.

lunar2

2013-11-20, 06:03 PM

Really? Kobolds not under the aegis of a dragon are rich?

they're even richer, because they have no dragon to donate to. kobolds are incredibly successful miners.

AMFV

2013-11-20, 06:50 PM

The fundamental problem is that a 10th level wizard is like the doctor. There is no way to keep him in the trap short of a weirdstone, or dimensional anchor. He can leave and them come back with better preparations for the problem. Furthermore the Kobolds have no way to detect somebody that is polymorphed into a mineral warrior, or somebody who is invisible, or any number of alternate solutions that have already been pointed out.

The fundamental problem with Tucker's Kobolds is that in the end it turns into a "who is smarter" contest", which only one person can enjoy, and it might turn out that the players are much smarter than the DM. I am reminded of when I played a game where we had an English Major DM playing with a bunch of Engineers and science majors (not that english majors can't be good at computation, but this one was not), he literally had to handwave dozens of encounters because he was not able to challenge his players adequately. Starting that sort of arms race is a bad bad idea.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-11-20, 08:07 PM

Of course, en masse use of lead to block divinations only tells the casters exactly where they are (i.e. where the scrying stops), which not only defeats the purpose, but can be used to track the home location.

Also, Locate Object. What do you look for? Lead Sheet. It will tell you where the nearest lead sheet (i.e. the nearest Kobold) is.

awa

2013-11-20, 09:08 PM

you know what now i want to design a low level adventure where pcs explore a dungeon that was built by paranoid kobolds but is now empty except for mindless undead kobolds the victims of lead poisoning and malnutrition. The party will explore the broken down remains of traps and in some of the large battles against swarms of undead cleverly lure them into the left over semi functioning traps.

all the while they will see signs that the kobolds king thought he was super clever but in actuality building a city around nothing but killing intruders makes a very inefficient city. With say notes in draconic talking about how to much of the population is working on trap maintenance duty and not enough on food production or orders to lead-line the water supply to avoid some one scry and teleporting poison into the water. The final boss will be the deranged kobold leader who will not shut up about how amazing and clever he is and how is the heir of the dragons and a mighty dracolich. (my experience is pc love putting those guys in there place)

Frosty

2013-11-20, 09:15 PM

DOOO EEEET Awa! That sounds awesome.

AMFV

2013-11-20, 09:29 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-20, 09:31 PM

AMFV

2013-11-20, 09:36 PM

Funny enough, with the Dragonwrought feat, he could actually be a dracolich.

A CR 4 Dracolich no less... that would be pretty awesome...

TripleD

2013-11-20, 10:42 PM

Small size, +1, for +9 total.

Forgot about Small Size, but Weapon Finesse doesn't work with spears, unless that is a house rule.

Getting back to the topic. The whole purpose of Tuckers Kobold's is to challenge players with "weak" creatures. The problem is that the definition of "weak" shifted a bit between editions. In second edition you could auto hit someone with a crossbow provided you were close enough. That isn't true in 3.5. So while a level one kobold with a crossbow was "weak" in second edition (as in, he couldn't do much damage), in 3.5 it would be inconsequential (as in, it probably would do no damage).

The DMG stop listing XP if you are eight or more CR below the current characters level. The whole CR debate aside, it's a useful yardstick for the new question: can you challenge a group of level 10 adventurers with a warren of at-most level 2 Kobolds using mostly mundane items, but with some limited access to magic?

AMFV

2013-11-20, 10:54 PM

Forgot about Small Size, but Weapon Finesse doesn't work with spears, unless that is a house rule.

Getting back to the topic. The whole purpose of Tuckers Kobold's is to challenge players with "weak" creatures. The problem is that the definition of "weak" shifted a bit between editions. In second edition you could auto hit someone with a crossbow provided you were close enough. That isn't true in 3.5. So while a level one kobold with a crossbow was "weak" in second edition (as in, he couldn't do much damage), in 3.5 it would be inconsequential (as in, it probably would do no damage).

The DMG stop listing XP if you are eight or more CR below the current characters level. The whole CR debate aside, it's a useful yardstick for the new question: can you challenge a group of level 10 adventurers with a warren of at-most level 2 Kobolds using mostly mundane items, but with some limited access to magic?

It would be possible, given certain forced conditions, but again without any way of stopping the players from just leaving if things go south there is little way to prevent a sense of urgency.

I'd recommend some kind of hostage situation as such, that way you can keep them from leaving, but other than that it would be extremely difficult and again we wind up with the problem of strategy being a skill, so it basically just boils down to who can think faster on their feet.

sleepyphoenixx

2013-11-21, 02:35 AM

You can still get your kobolds to hit with crossbows via the Missile Volley teamwork benefit. It'll require them to bunch up though so it makes them vulnerable to AoE.

Telonius

2013-11-21, 10:29 AM

Forgot about Small Size, but Weapon Finesse doesn't work with spears, unless that is a house rule.

Hey, thanks for the catch! Thought I'd already changed that to Rapiers in my Word document. ::grumblegrumble stupid files saved in three different places...::

Threadnaught

2013-11-21, 12:17 PM

Funny enough, with the Dragonwrought feat, he could actually be a dracolich.

A CR 4 Dracolich no less... that would be pretty awesome...

Dracolich Kobolds, someone's gotta make a few builds of these. :smallamused:

otakumick

2013-11-21, 12:56 PM

Ooh, and his buddy the Vampiric Dragon Kobold

No brains

2013-11-21, 10:26 PM

What if instead of lead sheeting there is just lead ore in the ground? No cost, just a random terrain benefit. All rooms will be shielded. Plus you would be interfering with things that specifically earth or rock. Also while lead ore probably won't poison a kobold unless it licks the walls, molten lead could probably poison a thoqqua through the skin. Hell a pocket of methane could ignite when air and heat are added, smashing the worm with explosive force and then making a cave in that squashes what's left. Forget about Tucker's kobolds, Tucker's hill could be just as evil.

Don't even booby trap or populate the place, just make it a clear-corridor cakewalk that only damages adventurers when they over-think their assault on a patch of dirt they can't scry.

Story

2013-11-21, 10:36 PM

Lead isn't poisonous in D&D. Trying to apply real life science only ends in tears.

Besides, Thoqquas literally eat minerals. You'd think they wouldn't survive long if the ground was poisonous to them.

Augmental

2013-11-21, 10:42 PM

What if instead of lead sheeting there is just lead ore in the ground? No cost, just a random terrain benefit. All rooms will be shielded.

Does lead ore count for the purposes of blocking divination?

Hyena

2013-11-21, 10:56 PM

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-21, 11:03 PM

Am I the only one that doesn't get how tucker's kobolds are dangerous? Come on, we're talkin about 10 level here. At this point adventurers have so much both AC and DR, they can pretty much shrug off crossbow bolts, and if you are not immune to fire at this point, you deserve to die a painful death anyway.

That's the entire point of Tucker's Kobolds. Overconfident adventurers should know to use tactics and strategy, not just brute-force everything like the bunch of murder-hoboes they are.

Phelix-Mu

2013-11-21, 11:14 PM

That's the entire point of Tucker's Kobolds. Overconfident adventurers should know to use tactics and strategy, not just brute-force everything like the bunch of murder-hoboes they are.

Still, if the players ever got to the point that their adventurers are overconfident, that seems to at least be in part the fault of the DM (for not teaching them earlier that curbstomp happens to everyone). If the DM's response to not drilling the PCs on the importance of caution and tactics is to beat the party to death with this kind of blunt instrument, I'm feeling a distinct pendulum effect at work.

DM was too lenient.----------------------------------------DM slaughters everyone with kobolds.

The real genius lies somewhere in between, and so Tucker's is more of a cautionary tale than something to actually use. "Beware of the forest, children, for a big bad kobold burrowwolf waits inside to steal your life away."

Story

2013-11-22, 12:06 AM

Am I the only one that doesn't get how tucker's kobolds are dangerous? Come on, we're talkin about 10 level here. At this point adventurers have so much both AC and DR, they can pretty much shrug off crossbow bolts, and if you are not immune to fire at this point, you deserve to die a painful death anyway.

That's part of the problem. As mentioned earlier, Tucker's Kobolds was originally done in AD&D, and it simply doesn't work well in 3.5

Pickford

2013-11-22, 01:34 AM

That's part of the problem. As mentioned earlier, Tucker's Kobolds was originally done in AD&D, and it simply doesn't work well in 3.5

Presumably the number of kobolds is still CR appropriate. Even if you can kill 3 a round, if you have to fight 40, that's still going to do some damage.

AMFV

2013-11-22, 01:51 AM

Presumably the number of kobolds is still CR appropriate. Even if you can kill 3 a round, if you have to fight 40, that's still going to do some damage.

The problem is that you could probably kill all of them in a round. A level 10 party is an overwhelming challenge for the Kobolds, and it's exacerbated by the kobolds not having any way to really trap the PCs or keep them dead in any real way. Attrition doesn't work as well in D&D, because there is a pretty nearly exponential power discrepancy between 10th and 1st level.

Fouredged Sword

2013-11-22, 06:36 AM

Most readings I remember state that the kobolds stop working at 10th level. Magic just gets too powerful. At 5 or 6 they remain a more interesting encounter due to the fact that the party has maybe 1 fireball preped.

awa

2013-11-22, 08:10 AM

its not even just the spells in earlier editions the difference in ac and hp between levels was much smaller. So kobolds would not have been fishing for 20s against level 10 pcs and there were far less way to easily mitigate damage
no lesser vigor or spontaneous cures ect.

TripleD

2013-11-22, 11:51 AM

Like has been said before, Tucker's Kobolds lived in the world of AD&D. They built traps and challenges based on the world around them. 3.5 is not AD&D, but Kobolds are still Kobolds. Traps are their raison d'être, not just a craft but an art. Hit and run tactics the backbone of their strategy.

Instead of trying to port the Kobolds from 2nd edition, lets look at how Tucker's Kobolds would work in 3.5.

Level
First off, growth per level changed a lot between editions. The line between "weak" and "inconsequential" has moved. There are ways around it ("missile volley") but a cap of "eight levels below" makes more sense than "level 1"

Magic
Magic is more important in 3.5 than 2. All the tier one classes are magic users. Most of the tier two's are magic users. Magic gets stuff done. This affects our problem in two ways:

Kobolds are a magically inclined people. Sorceror is their favoured class. According to Races of the Dragon, becoming an arcane caster is followed by more pomp than actual priesthood. What's more, even the most mundane Kobold's can undergo the Draconic Rite of Passage, allowing a first level spell as a spell like ability. Most common workers live without (gems are too well loved to pass up) but assume most trained fighters and magic users can fire off one. Guards with "Detect Magic" for example.

Second, just because you can Scry doesn't necessarily understand what you are seeing. Lets assume that Kobolds build traps with assumption that they will be scryed on. Example: the big barrel labeled "Alchemists Fire" is actually Stonebreaker Acid for destroying the floor beneath you.

Mundane

Next to trapmaking, Kobolds are best known for mining. In fact, there about on par with dwarves for their stonework. Their mine shafts may be crude, but their actual lairs will be worked stone, which grants them resistance to "Stone to Mud" and "Earthquake"

Not that traps should be ignored, but they should drop the idea of death through damage. Wand of Cure Light Wounds nullifies any war of attrition. Instead focus on entanglement and Dex based damage. Thunderstones are another item that often get overlooked. Deafen them with a barrage of Thunderstones, lowering initiative and complicating spell casting, then start hitting them with other effects (Acid, Fire, Cave Ins, CON damage, etc.). Rely as little as possible on weapons beyond poisoned crossbow bolts.

Other small things that people have mentioned: tunnels made for tiny sized creatures, gaining the high ground, doors that are barred but not locked, etc.

Karoht

2013-11-22, 02:47 PM

Tuckers Kobolds is pretty fun.

I ran it in the ruins of a long abandoned fortress/church.
The roof was missing in most parts, the walls were still up, the floor was solid stone with grass and weeds growing through it. Not tall or obscuring, just a fluff detail.

The group knew the orcs were there, and decided to look for a caved in wall on a side rather than going in the armed front. A solid choice.
It put them in the remains of a library or study. The orcs were not there. The party wanted to search, so they did. Had they not, they would have taken the lot of them by surprise, but instead, the orcs had warning of their presence. And the orcs snuck in and hid behind book cases. Others went behind walls, pulled a brick or two out of the wall, pulled a few books out of the way, and started firing crossbows in teams. Two man team per crossbow (one shoots, one reloads and keeps an eye out for trouble), 3 crossbow teams, 2 skirmishers holding actions for a good strike opportunity. Only one team fired per round at first, in order to confuse the party, but after about 4 rounds it was fire at will. The skirmishers started the fight by thrusting spears in between the shelves of the bookcases, at about hip level. Not only did this hit some flat footed AC's, but acted as a (DC10) tripwire. The skirmishers then ran around and blocked people between bookcases and tried to hold the party in separate rows of shelves. Eventually, when the fight started to go south for the orcs, as it eventually would, they started shoving bookcases onto the party and running away.

The two skirmishers died, one crossbow team died, the other two managed to get away, albeit with injuries.

They proceed to fall back, call for backup, and the rest was about 4 encounters worth of orcs, moving through the ruins and flanking and ambushing the party. Eventually, a sapper team started shoving over the stone walls onto the party.

The leader of these guys, managed to run up a tower. Looked to be an old bell tower. This tower was at the opposite end of the ruins from where the party was. There was no roof and very little cover between them and the orc shooting from the bell tower. The party cleaned up the rest of the orcs where they were (rather than risking more walls falling on them), enduring shots from the orc leader the entire time.

So the party had to run across most of the ruins, out in the open, to get to the base of the tower. A few lucky shots later, the party is VERY hurt.
First, one of them tries ringing the bell using the rope at the bottom. No bell rings. One decides he's going to climb up using the rope. He makes it 10 feet off the ground before he falls, and a barrel of oil at the other end of the rope nearly lands on him. It shatters, oil goes everywhere, and a lit torch follows it. There is now fire everywhere.

The party ducks around a corner, heals up, waits for the fire to go out. One of them even uses create water to speed up the process. Good. This gave the orc time to prepare of course.

So the party starts going up the spiral staircase. First, one of them steps on some caltrops, falls down the stairs. Second, one hits a grease patch and falls down the stairs. One of the party members then notices that oil is pouring down the stairs, probably from the top. They manage to make some acrobatics checks to walk further up the stairs and not slip on the oil. Suddenly, a barrel of oil (lit on fire) rolls down the stairs at them. One of them catches the barrel to the chest, falls down the stairs. The rest are now standing on slippery stairs that are also on fire.

One extremely angry retreat later, the party heals back up again, waits for the smoke to stop billowing out of the open sections of the tower, and decides to just up and charge up those stairs. They run, and they plow through the acrobatics checks for the remaining grease and the caltrops, and they rush all the way to the top of the tower and...

... nothing?

...
... ...

*one extremely angry party later* They look around the room and realize that outside one of the windows is a rope ladder leading down, on the outside wall that they never bothered to check. And they see a few orcs moving about in the bushes over there. So they hop out the window and climb down the rope ladder.

Suddenly, they hear 'tink tink tink tink tink tink' as they are about half way down the rope ladder. One of the party members immediately grasps what is going on and what is likely about to happen. He chooses to jump from the ladder. He only takes 2D6 falling damage. I made him clarify what he was doing, which way he was jumping. He managed to jump to the side of the tower. And he was adamant that he was not shouting a warning to the rest of the party.

So the rest of the party was justifiably angry when the tower started falling in their direction.

The party was quite hurt by falling, and then having a large tower fall on them. I gave them all a very low DC 15 saving throw reflex negates or fortitude for half, their choice, as the tower collapsed on them. They all rolled quite poorly, but 2 out of the 5 managed to take no damage other than the falling.

At which point, the last 4 orc skirmishers charged the party, while the boss fired arrows from the bushes. The party managed to mop them up easily enough, but it was close, and the orc leader very nearly ran away successfully.

They were out of spells. I mean out. Everything. Every slot, gone. Their hit points were in single digits. This party had, only a session before, bragged about how they could take on 100 orcs with no trouble at all.
There had been 30. Not one of them had casting. Not one had a magic item on their person. Not one had more than a few copper to their name. It was nearing winter, chances are they would have died to the cold. I think the leader had some masterwork armor and a masterwork weapon. They had used the crumbling ruins and 3 barrels of oil to do most of the damage, with the odd crossbow bolt scoring damage.

Given that this party had resoundly had its butt kicked, but managed to pull off a victory, I chose to consider that the tactics and terrain had contributed to make it a CR12 encounter if we added all the combats together as one huge encounter. The party was level 10 and had nearly been TPK's by a bunch of orcs. A few well placed fireballs would have done the job, except that the only caster sorcerer was multiclassing favored soul/sorcerer and some fighter as well, and so only had access to 3rd level cleric and 2nd level sorcerer spells.

The party was furious with me. And congratulated me for a genuinely challenging series of encounters. Then one of them threw food at me and missed.

Story

2013-11-22, 05:53 PM

*one extremely angry party later* They look around the room and realize that outside one of the windows is a rope ladder leading down, on the outside wall that they never bothered to check. And they see a few orcs moving about in the bushes over there. So they hop out the window and climb down the rope ladder.

What level was the party? Even for an unoptimized, mid level party I'd expect a Fireball at this point at the very least.

The party was level 10 and had nearly been TPK's by a bunch of orcs. A few well placed fireballs would have done the job, except that the only caster sorcerer was multiclassing favored soul/sorcerer and some fighter as well, and so only had access to 3rd level cleric and 2nd level sorcerer spells.

Ah, a low op party with no real spellcasters. Now there's their real problem.

No brains

2013-11-22, 05:57 PM

TripleD

2013-11-22, 09:11 PM

At 10th level, couldn't most familiars go into tiny tunnels and attack the kobolds pretty effectively with their good saves, AC, and HP? A cat could go in there with some buffs and turn the lizard people who were chihuahua people into mouse people.

Have you never owned a pet? I ask because you have obviously never heard of this wonderful new invention called a "door".

awa

2013-11-22, 09:51 PM

not most but say an imp could cause some serious damge

No brains

2013-11-22, 11:17 PM

Have you never owned a pet? I ask because you have obviously never heard of this wonderful new invention called a "door".

This is actually turning the tables on the DM in a few ways.

Ask if doors use latches or levers instead of knobs. While a knob demands a true grip, a latch handle only needs to be depressed as the door is moved, something a few dogs can do and something a cat with int 13 can too. What's more, real door 'knobs' weren't popular until the late 19th century, so you can nail your DM if they want to be 'historically accurate'. Lastly, the tunnel already functions as a 'door' by allowing entrance only to the people the kobolds want in, making a door pretty frivolous.

Another fun angle of this vulnerability is the expression, "Watch only for giants, and you'll be devoured by ants." Wouldn't it be something if the ants themselves were eaten by mites?

I also do own pets, and I wouldn't want to trust my kitty in a maze of monsters without enough buffs to claw through a good wooden door. Anyway, even if he can't get in by scratching, I could give him a touch spell for breaking or knocking the doors.

Lastly, cats already kill commoners, why not have them kill something even more ridiculous?:smallsmile:

Slipperychicken

2013-11-22, 11:35 PM

So the rest of the party was justifiably angry when the tower started falling in their direction.

Owch. Those orcs must have wanted them dead pretty badly if they were willing to bring a tower (presumably their own tower?) down on them.

What level was the party? Even for an unoptimized, mid level party I'd expect a Fireball at this point at the very least.

I don't know. They'd have needed a pretty good loadout (geared toward mook-clearing?) to effectively deal with the orcs. I imagine it would have taken some degree of planning and foresight.

Have you never owned a pet? I ask because you have obviously never heard of this wonderful new invention called a "door".

One of my cats can turn a doorknob when he really wants to.. I imagine that an intelligent creature can do the same. I know I can turn knobs with my feet or with pressure, so I bet intelligent animals don't necessarily need grasping hands for it.

awa

2013-11-22, 11:50 PM

keep in mind a cat can often manage to get a door open built for a creature several times its size where it cant even reach the handle with out jumping or climbing it should be vastly easier for it to get in a door built for smaller creatures.

Story

2013-11-23, 12:03 AM

I don't know. They'd have needed a pretty good loadout (geared toward mook-clearing?) to effectively deal with the orcs. I imagine it would have taken some degree of planning and foresight.

But Fireball is the archetpyal blaster Wizard spell and this was pretty much the optimal condition for Fireball.

Pickford

2013-11-23, 12:11 AM

The problem is that you could probably kill all of them in a round. A level 10 party is an overwhelming challenge for the Kobolds, and it's exacerbated by the kobolds not having any way to really trap the PCs or keep them dead in any real way. Attrition doesn't work as well in D&D, because there is a pretty nearly exponential power discrepancy between 10th and 1st level.

If the PCs are so dead set on entering this kobold hole, they have to go 'in' the hole. They can still be trapped, burning things can be dropped on them, horrible boiling oil etc... which can kill them.

I'd be interested in seeing how devastating a totally mundane defense could be designed which flummoxes any party configuration.

AMFV

2013-11-23, 12:49 AM

If the PCs are so dead set on entering this kobold hole, they have to go 'in' the hole. They can still be trapped, burning things can be dropped on them, horrible boiling oil etc... which can kill them.

I'd be interested in seeing how devastating a totally mundane defense could be designed which flummoxes any party configuration.

I wouldn't go in the hole. It's a trap, the way to beat a trap is not to go into the trap. You can polymorph into something that has a burrow speed ad then completely bypass the whole mess, and that's available much earlier than level 10. Again there's no way to force your players to go in a specific route, particularly in this example, if there's something I want I'll burrow to it, and then teleport out... again. Otherwise not worth my time, if I'm supposed to kill the kobolds it'll be much easier to shape earth their lair or summon something to cave in the lair no personal risk that way.

The problem is that at level 10, the second a caster is in an ambush, they're gone. I've presented an anecdote where that very thing happened, and I wasn't even playing a paranoid wizard archetype, but rather a reserved archivist. Then they can come back at their leisure. Hell, you could polymorph into a kobold, use a potion of glibness... then you could just walk in ask about the traps and get to whatever they're hiding, then teleport out.

There's two solutions to almost any trap configuration that require very low level spells (teleport excepted) and little monetary resources, that was less than two minutes of thinking on my part, ergo one could probably come up with even better scenarios.

Have you never owned a pet? I ask because you have obviously never heard of this wonderful new invention called a "door".

Familiars are much higher than Int 3... I assume they could figure it out.

Slipperychicken

2013-11-23, 01:53 AM

But Fireball is the archetpyal blaster Wizard spell and this was pretty much the optimal condition for Fireball.

That's basically what I mean. A wizard would have had to prepare a few of his precious 3rd level slots with Fireball in advance, since he's unlikely to catch all of them in the same 20ft radius spread. In the metagame, we know that blasting is typically suboptimal, so wizards don't prepare it all that often.

Unless Schrodinger's Wizard was on their team, they don't necessarily know that they're going to fight Tucker's Orcs, so the wizard would most likely prep his usual crowd-control/Buffing spells rather than the oft-maligned blasting spells.

jedipotter

2013-11-23, 05:57 AM

Presumably the number of kobolds is still CR appropriate. Even if you can kill 3 a round, if you have to fight 40, that's still going to do some damage.

You can still do the idea of Tucker's Kobolds in 3.5E, but you can't just to the by-the-book-kobolds vs 10th level characters.

1. You need to fix all the little things in 3.5 that are just a little bit off, broken or bad. Common sense works fine. And if you can't tell, just check out the internet: anything that ''everyone'' thinks is so great needs a fix.

2. You need to not have houserules like PC's get max hit points at every level or more skill points or more class skills. If you have a 10th level wizard with 13 hit points (4 at 1st level, rolled 1 for levels 2 to 9, no con bonus) then you are doing it right.

3. Be careful allowing every book with every class, rule, feat, spell or such. Many things, whole books even, were done very fly-by-night, where someone just tossed them together and it got put on a shelf. This goes back to #1 too. But you can also just ban books and not allow picks from any book.

4. You can't be a storyteller. If your trying to tell your epic story about a dwarf and a tea kettle then your not going to have the heart or drive to do the kobolds justice.

5. Maybe the hardest one, for some, is that you need a different mind set to to Tucker's kobolds. If you let the players make near god characters, rule everything in their favor, ignore some rules, interpret other rules just the way that the players like, or just let the players cheat....then you won't have a good Tucker's kobolds experence.

Hummmm.......just a thought. But if you were to make like 10th level kobolds.....just think you could give every single one of them an Enveloping Pit! What an awesome idea! Each of the 200 kobolds each with an Enveloping Pit, oh the fun. Such a great way to get back at the type of player that ''always must have'' that item.

AMFV

2013-11-23, 06:05 AM

You can still do the idea of Tucker's Kobolds in 3.5E, but you can't just to the by-the-book-kobolds vs 10th level characters.

1. You need to fix all the little things in 3.5 that are just a little bit off, broken or bad. Common sense works fine. And if you can't tell, just check out the internet: anything that ''everyone'' thinks is so great needs a fix.

2. You need to not have houserules like PC's get max hit points at every level or more skill points or more class skills. If you have a 10th level wizard with 13 hit points (4 at 1st level, rolled 1 for levels 2 to 9, no con bonus) then you are doing it right.

3. Be careful allowing every book with every class, rule, feat, spell or such. Many things, whole books even, were done very fly-by-night, where someone just tossed them together and it got put on a shelf. This goes back to #1 too. But you can also just ban books and not allow picks from any book.

4. You can't be a storyteller. If your trying to tell your epic story about a dwarf and a tea kettle then your not going to have the heart or drive to do the kobolds justice.

5. Maybe the hardest one, for some, is that you need a different mind set to to Tucker's kobolds. If you let the players make near god characters, rule everything in their favor, ignore some rules, interpret other rules just the way that the players like, or just let the players cheat....then you won't have a good Tucker's kobolds experence.

Hummmm.......just a thought. But if you were to make like 10th level kobolds.....just think you could give every single one of them an Enveloping Pit! What an awesome idea! Each of the 200 kobolds each with an Enveloping Pit, oh the fun. Such a great way to get back at the type of player that ''always must have'' that item.

Teleport is SRD only and pretty much invalidates the whole "trap" idea from the onset.

Furthermore once you start competing directly with the players you have to realize that you might be not as good at tactics as they are (then you lose), or you use extreme fiat to beat them (also losing), or they start losing and stop having fun (losing a third time!)

jedipotter

2013-11-23, 06:16 AM

Teleport is SRD only and pretty much invalidates the whole "trap" idea from the onset.

Furthermore once you start competing directly with the players you have to realize that you might be not as good at tactics as they are (then you lose), or you use extreme fiat to beat them (also losing), or they start losing and stop having fun (losing a third time!)

Well, as I said you need to fix somethings. So go 4E and make teleport a 'ritual' that takes and hour to cast. Then there will be no teleporting out of the traps.

Is using a normal fiat ok? Is just the extreme one bad?

And it is all about fun. If you have the type of players that always must win and don't like to loose, then you should not be using Tucker type kobolds. You should just have your kobolds line up nicely for the characters and even let the characters attack first.

AMFV

2013-11-23, 06:35 AM

Well, as I said you need to fix somethings. So go 4E and make teleport a 'ritual' that takes and hour to cast. Then there will be no teleporting out of the traps.

Is using a normal fiat ok? Is just the extreme one bad?

And it is all about fun. If you have the type of players that always must win and don't like to loose, then you should not be using Tucker type kobolds. You should just have your kobolds line up nicely for the characters and even let the characters attack first.

I'm the type of player who doesn't mind losing, but I don't like cheating. If the DM uses his knowledge to force the players into a scenario where they shouldn't win, that's cheating.

My opinion is that the DM and players are not opponents, it's problematic for the reasons I discussed. The reason why using fiat to "win" is a problem is that it's forced you to basically admit you couldn't win fighting fair.

The problem with Tucker's Kobolds is that it's kind of all using metagame knowledge. Tucker has vastly superior knowledge of the player's capabilities and tendencies and he used this to create a scenario that was designed to screw them, that's kind of not fun for them, and as described in the story it wasn't really fun, or even really viscerally terrifying, it was annoying and unfair. The players should lose when the story demands it, but it shouldn't be to teach them a "lesson", you aren't their headmaster, you're not their Drill Instructor, it's not your job to mold them into better players but rather to have a good time and for them to do likewise.

Augmental

2013-11-23, 07:53 AM

That's basically what I mean. A wizard would have had to prepare a few of his precious 3rd level slots with Fireball in advance, since he's unlikely to catch all of them in the same 20ft radius spread. In the metagame, we know that blasting is typically suboptimal, so wizards don't prepare it all that often.

Unless Schrodinger's Wizard was on their team, they don't necessarily know that they're going to fight Tucker's Orcs, so the wizard would most likely prep his usual crowd-control/Buffing spells rather than the oft-maligned blasting spells.

You're assuming an optimized party. At low levels of optimization, blasting spells are usually used more.

Kelb_Panthera

2013-11-23, 08:24 AM

You're assuming an optimized party. At low levels of optimization, blasting spells are usually used more.

It's not a stretch at all to assume that a wizard won't prepare many blasting spells. Even an utter novice can tell that a sorcerer does blasting immensely better than a wizard ( at least until you start getting into multi-metamagic and/or cost reduction shennanigans but a novice doesn't know about those things.)

Kaveman26

2013-11-23, 09:53 AM

I think this whole concept is much like pun pun. It's not a question of doing it,the reasons why and why not to are abundant. It's more the theory craft of how to go about it.

How much mileage can you get out of them without breaking the rules so to speak

How far could you push a level 6 or 10 group before they throw their hands up in frustration.

Side note ... I love some of the rationale of why they go to these lengths. Justifying kobolds lining their lairs with lead is just darn amusing.

Picture this hypothetical:

An ancient red dragon bored with his existence fosters a warren of kobolds. Utilizing their fast reproduction and large batches offspring he keeps them in a constantly stressed environment waging a war of attrition that accelerates dozens of generations to turn over rapidly. Natural selection and forced adaptation leads to a tribe of vicious and paranoid little buggers. Think of that as a basis and not the right or wrong of using them.

Aotrs Commander

2013-11-23, 10:15 AM

I ran Dragon Mountain a few years ago in 3.5. I briefly looked at the original AD&D Kobold tactics which were essentially to use Tucker's Kobolds on 10th level AD&D characters.

I then considered that the party I was running the module for was a) capable of doing things in the core rules (cleave, iterative attacks) that the module recommended against or were just plain unwise (grappling...) and b) starting the module at 16th level and c) ran my mid-to-high optimisers who work extremely well together.

I abandoned the idea very quickly and went with much higher level kobolds with more conventional tactics (and their sorcerers and witch-doctors (clerics) up in the 16-20 level range). They were still slaughted on masse (especially once the PCs discovered Sunburst - blind kobolds do not good combatants make, and they literally blinded whole clans with that 80'R...), but they at least occasionally got some licks in.

(Were I to do it again, I'd crib 4E's minion idea, and instead of having (say) twenty 8-12th archer specialists, I'd have twenty 16th level archer minions - offensively 16th, but defensively (and in terms of CR) more like five 16ths. That would have also killed the kit spiral that adventure went onto! (As, of course, all those high-level creaturs needed magic items to be able to get enough numbers...!))

Though Clan Blood - composed of spellcasters, manifesters and martial adepts (sometimes all at once...) and even an invoker to two, gave them the single longest and most complex fight I'll ever run.

awa

2013-11-23, 11:08 AM

yheah if i recall the original tuckers kobold it only worked becuase the pcs did not want to fight the kobolds. not becuase kobolds were scary but becuase they weren't fun.

Its not about being afraid to lose (at least not always) its about being bored. a fight against enemies you cant meaningfully fight is unless done very well annoying rather then fun particularly if it lasts very long. On top of that D&D does mass combat poorly all the dice rolling of every single kobold throwing an alchemical item and then rolling for scatter and so on will mean every fight takes a long time and hit and run combat will mean they have to fight a large number of these long unsatisfying fights.

And this can get pcs killed becuase the players get bored and stop paying attention to what is going on they get impatient and waste powerful spells or act recklessly becuase what they really want to do is something else. This is not good dming.

Story

2013-11-23, 11:28 AM

You can still do the idea of Tucker's Kobolds in 3.5E, but you can't just to the by-the-book-kobolds vs 10th level characters.

1. You need to fix all the little things in 3.5 that are just a little bit off, broken or bad. Common sense works fine. And if you can't tell, just check out the internet: anything that ''everyone'' thinks is so great needs a fix.

2. You need to not have houserules like PC's get max hit points at every level or more skill points or more class skills. If you have a 10th level wizard with 13 hit points (4 at 1st level, rolled 1 for levels 2 to 9, no con bonus) then you are doing it right.

3. Be careful allowing every book with every class, rule, feat, spell or such. Many things, whole books even, were done very fly-by-night, where someone just tossed them together and it got put on a shelf. This goes back to #1 too. But you can also just ban books and not allow picks from any book.

4. You can't be a storyteller. If your trying to tell your epic story about a dwarf and a tea kettle then your not going to have the heart or drive to do the kobolds justice.

5. Maybe the hardest one, for some, is that you need a different mind set to to Tucker's kobolds. If you let the players make near god characters, rule everything in their favor, ignore some rules, interpret other rules just the way that the players like, or just let the players cheat....then you won't have a good Tucker's kobolds experence.

Hummmm.......just a thought. But if you were to make like 10th level kobolds.....just think you could give every single one of them an Enveloping Pit! What an awesome idea! Each of the 200 kobolds each with an Enveloping Pit, oh the fun. Such a great way to get back at the type of player that ''always must have'' that item.

I really hope this was sarcastic. Rolling all 1s for HP is extraordinarily improbable (1 in 65536). And banning entire books is silly for well known reasons, especially if that book isn't the PHB.

But the real problem is that you're basically suggesting using DM fiat to "punish" the players, for ... why? It's not simulationist realism because you've just said that you can't be a storyteller. It's not fairness in wargaming because you've thrown out fairness.

jedipotter

2013-11-23, 12:25 PM

I'm the type of player who doesn't mind losing, but I don't like cheating. If the DM uses his knowledge to force the players into a scenario where they shouldn't win, that's cheating.

My opinion is that the DM and players are not opponents, it's problematic for the reasons I discussed. The reason why using fiat to "win" is a problem is that it's forced you to basically admit you couldn't win fighting fair.

So if a DM makes an encounter, that meets whatever your personal standard of the right way/fairness/done by the rules, and the PC's loose, then that is not cheating. As long as you know all the details and pre approve the encounter. Of course if the PC's just loose and encounter, the DM must have cheated, right?

And it's not about being opponents. But each side should go all out to win. It is much more fun that way. And you know your win or loss was real. When the DM does not ''oppose'', as you would say, the PC's, then they have a cake walk through everything. And it can quickly get so bad like when the DM has the adult dragon walk over to claw/bite the characters and never use it's breath weapon, spells or other abilites.

awa

2013-11-23, 12:45 PM

So if a DM makes an encounter, that meets whatever your personal standard of the right way/fairness/done by the rules, and the PC's loose, then that is not cheating. As long as you know all the details and pre approve the encounter. Of course if the PC's just loose and encounter, the DM must have cheated, right?

And it's not about being opponents. But each side should go all out to win. It is much more fun that way. And you know your win or loss was real. When the DM does not ''oppose'', as you would say, the PC's, then they have a cake walk through everything. And it can quickly get so bad like when the DM has the adult dragon walk over to claw/bite the characters and never use it's breath weapon, spells or other abilites.

Unless im very much mistaken he did not say the encounter must be per-approved just fair. A group of kobolds who exist only to kill pcs like some-kind of fanatical death cult armed with house rules and hand-waving to give them an advantage is not fair. Assuming i have correctly interpreted his view point hes saying the dms job is not to try and beat the pcs but to provide fun interesting encounters. That does not mean it should be easy or that the dm should let the pcs win.

Pickford

2013-11-23, 11:32 PM

I wouldn't go in the hole. It's a trap, the way to beat a trap is not to go into the trap. You can polymorph into something that has a burrow speed ad then completely bypass the whole mess, and that's available much earlier than level 10. Again there's no way to force your players to go in a specific route, particularly in this example, if there's something I want I'll burrow to it, and then teleport out... again. Otherwise not worth my time, if I'm supposed to kill the kobolds it'll be much easier to shape earth their lair or summon something to cave in the lair no personal risk that way.

Their lair is, unfortunately, surrounded in worked stone (they've been stealing it from the local roads for years, dontcha know), so burrowing is stymied by that.

The McGuffin is fragile, shaping stone to smash the lair will destroy it.

The problem is that at level 10, the second a caster is in an ambush, they're gone. I've presented an anecdote where that very thing happened, and I wasn't even playing a paranoid wizard archetype, but rather a reserved archivist. Then they can come back at their leisure. Hell, you could polymorph into a kobold, use a potion of glibness... then you could just walk in ask about the traps and get to whatever they're hiding, then teleport out.

Why can't we assume one of the kobolds (having sorcerer as their favored class) is a sorcerer who readied action counterspelled the guy in the robe (caster)? Really that seems like ambush 101 in a world with magic. Get your own caster to neuter theirs until the spearmen can stabby stabby.

There's two solutions to almost any trap configuration that require very low level spells (teleport excepted) and little monetary resources, that was less than two minutes of thinking on my part, ergo one could probably come up with even better scenarios.

Again, counterspells.

also: jedipotter most definitely does not represent my position on anything.

Augmental

2013-11-23, 11:50 PM

Why can't we assume one of the kobolds (having sorcerer as their favored class) is a sorcerer who readied action counterspelled the guy in the robe (caster)? Really that seems like ambush 101 in a world with magic. Get your own caster to neuter theirs until the spearmen can stabby stabby.

How are 1st-2nd level sorcerers counterspelling a 5th-level spell? They'd need to have dispel magic at the least, which would require them to be 6th level - and doesn't that kind of go against the philosophy of Tucker's Kobolds, that a pack of low-level enemies can use tactics and traps to cause problems for high-level parties?

Rubik

2013-11-24, 01:18 AM

How are 1st-2nd level sorcerers counterspelling a 5th-level spell? They'd need to have dispel magic at the least, which would require them to be 6th level - and doesn't that kind of go against the philosophy of Tucker's Kobolds, that a pack of low-level enemies can use tactics and traps to cause problems for high-level parties?Pun-Pun?

There's an app a kobold for that.

Augmental

2013-11-24, 01:28 AM

Pun-Pun?

There's an app a kobold for that.

That goes even further against the philosophy of Tucker's Kobolds.

Doorhandle

2013-11-24, 01:31 AM

Tuckers kobolds would be most afraid of adventurers with large-scale (or just at-will or close to it medium-scale) terrain-shaping abilities. Tucker's kobolds also rely heavily on peppering and retreating, so any sort of DR or energy resistance will make those small attacks (even if they come constantly) do next to nothing. Combining that with any sort of fast healing will ruin their day.

Very prepared wizards, dragon shamans, Tome of Battle characters (Mountain hammer reshapes terrain in a sense), Reserve Feats are all examples of things that Tucker's Kobolds hate. At CL 10, a simple 2nd level Resist Energy will last 100 minutes, and there's probably enough spell slots to ward the entire party. Or someone will cast the Mass version of it, which I think is a level 3 spell? Resist Fire 20 means none of the mundane fire stuff works anymore.

Pit traps will still work, but it's very difficult to herd the PCs now as they don't care about the small damage, and bashing through locked doors or walls is easy if they can ignore hardness.

So the real question is how one works against that?

Resit energy: you only have so many castings of these, and there more than just fire you can use. Pouring in acid is a great idea, as is any conductive or fluid, or freezing-cold icewater, or a combination of the above. Bonus point for it in such concentrations it can drown them. Or also being poisionous.

DR is a major problem: But that's what collapsing walls, energy damage, and suffocation are for, or siege weapons if they can make/find them cheaply enough. Plus, throw enough arrows and one's gonna crit, perhaps for a large amount of damage: It is rare a PC can access DR larger than 15.

Fast healing is less of, but still, a problem, as sufficient amounts of fire overcomes it more easily than DR. Plus, no additional protection against poisons and the like, which PC are unlikely to have outright immunity for, although migration is near-universal.

Plus there is always caster disruption. Lassos and harpoons allow distance grappling, and enough aid-another actions can guarantee success. Thunderstones, tanglefoot bags, deafening, and suffocation can have similar effects, as could sundering component pouches/divine foci for the poor fools who didn't get eschew materials. Forcing casting checks with readied actions and sniping can also work.

As for directly countering environmental control, I have... no idea.

CombatOwl

2013-11-24, 08:55 AM

No, not that.

How does one actually go about accomplishing the feats achieved by DMs such as the fabled Tucker? WHat tactics do you use? in the original story, it isn't described in great depth, as it's trying to get across a philosophy rather than specific tactics. I've heard things like 'use the terrain to your advantage, but how? make difficult terrain and used ranged? what is the key exactly?

Traps, cover, small spaces, reach weapons, and thrown explosives.

Story

2013-11-24, 08:57 AM

Rubik

2013-11-24, 11:45 AM

You know, even if you're going up against a really high level party, you can still use kobolds to your advantage. You don't have to keep them as level 1 commoner mutts. Instead, give them enough levels to get whatever job you want done, done, but use clever strategies and tactics to your advantage.

And feel free to fiat a few unfair rules, but tell the players early on what's up, and ensure that it's something unusual about the situation that's making the change.

Is the lead ore magically radioactive in such a way that it blocks teleportation outside of line of sight? That's perfectly fine, so long as the players know about it early into the adventure (and removing it from the area causes it to stop working, so players can't abuse it without moving into the mines themselves).

So long as you're using creatures that are normally not threatening for the party dealing with, you can still use Tucker's Kobolds; just ensure that you're using really smart tactics to multiply the threat level to keep them on their toes.

Augmental

2013-11-24, 12:19 PM

Rubik

2013-11-24, 12:48 PM

Wasn't the point of Tucker's Kobolds that a bunch of level 1 kobolds could defeat high-level parties using strategy and tactics alone?The point is that you're using weak creatures with excellent tactics against an unprepared foe. Using level 7 kobolds against a level 15 party is similar to using level 1 kobolds against a level 8 party.

Slipperychicken

2013-11-24, 12:59 PM

The point is that you're using weak creatures with excellent tactics against an unprepared foe. Using level 7 kobolds against a level 15 party is similar to using level 1 kobolds against a level 8 party.

I think the website said that you could put them at whatever level the party would consider them chumps (i.e. pathetically weak, not worth their time).

ZX6Rob

2013-11-24, 01:39 PM

The point is that you're using weak creatures with excellent tactics against an unprepared foe. Using level 7 kobolds against a level 15 party is similar to using level 1 kobolds against a level 8 party.

I think this is an excellent point. The thing I always took away from Tucker's Kobolds was less "These are first-level mooks that I totes owned my players with!" and more "I presented the players with a challenge that they initially laughed off, and they grew to regret that decision when I showed them that a force of inferior creatures could be quite challenging when played smartly." It's not about specific numbers or levels, it's about surprising your players with a more challenging encounter than they expected at the outset.

I honestly don't even know how much truth there is to the original story; maybe it's been embellished a bit over the years, who knows? The point, though, still stands, even in 3.5 - there are concrete advantages to using a group of monsters that, individually, are weaker than the players in a tactical and intelligent manner. The specifics of how much weaker and what those tactics are depend heartily on the players, their characters, and the DM.

So, that said, it's basically impossible, I would think, to provide a definitive answer to the OP's question. I know that if I wanted to confound my players -- who are mostly new to the game with a low level of system mastery -- with a group of kobolds, I could use many of the same tactics that were listed in the original story. If I was still playing with my old group, with their much greater amount of experience and system mastery, the kobolds would either need some magic item support or some higher-level members to counter the more intelligent tactics of the players. With just a group of the most elite players that I've ever DM'ed for, I doubt Tucker's Kobolds would work at all -- in that scenario, the players would be playing every bit as intelligently as the kobolds would, using all the tricks at their disposal, and that sort of invalidates the entire scenario, really. After all, wasn't it originally, "My group of big, dumb meat and their pyromaniac blaster friends finally encountered a challenge that they couldn't bludgeon their way through with sheer martial might, and it really threw them for a loop"? That's more what I got out of it, anyway.

AMFV

2013-11-24, 06:03 PM

Their lair is, unfortunately, surrounded in worked stone (they've been stealing it from the local roads for years, dontcha know), so burrowing is stymied by that.

The McGuffin is fragile, shaping stone to smash the lair will destroy it.

Why can't we assume one of the kobolds (having sorcerer as their favored class) is a sorcerer who readied action counterspelled the guy in the robe (caster)? Really that seems like ambush 101 in a world with magic. Get your own caster to neuter theirs until the spearmen can stabby stabby.

Again, counterspells.

You realize that counterspells are caster level checks or else you have to have the same spell prepared (extremely unlikely if you're using level 1 Kobolds), who even with the Rite of Draconic Passage, greater will fail their caster level checks against the wizards or sorcerers in the party

Secondly my casters don't wear robes, and frequently have points in disguise. It's good practice.

Thirdly, my casters first reaction at an ambush... ANY ambush, is to teleport away. And I'm likely to win initiative.

Fourth and perhaps most damning, Stone Shape completely ignores if it's worked and then you can use it to make bars and stuff to block their path, and you still don't have a way to prevent me from just leaving, cause that's my reaction, then I come back at my own time.

Edit: Additionally surrounding yourself with worked stone is pretty much impossible in a cave, you don't use soften earth on the stone above them... but the stone below, triggering a cave-in.

Zrak

2013-11-24, 07:38 PM

That's the entire point of Tucker's Kobolds. Overconfident adventurers should know to use tactics and strategy, not just brute-force everything like the bunch of murder-hoboes they are.

I think the unfortunate reality of Tucker's Kobolds is that it tends to reinforce the sort of hubris it was meant to punish in 3.5 and Pathfinder, especially the latter.

I tried designing that style of encounter for a seventh-level Pathfinder group that wasn't even particularly optimized, following most all of the guidelines TripleD suggests except, if anything, being more vicious with the traps — dex damage, deafness, drowning, green slime chutes, the works. There was nothing they couldn't ignore altogether or fix with a standard action the round after someone else negated it with a standard action. Basically, all they learned was that they could brute force their way through the most devious tactics short of those reliant on DM fiat.

Character creation was out of my hands, since the campaign rotated DMs for brief arcs. That said, I'll reiterate that nobody was even particularly optimized or playing stereotypically "high tier" classes.

Karoht

2013-11-25, 11:49 AM

I always viewed Tucker's Kobolds as a thought experiement, challenging the notion of CR rating as anything other than a loose guideline based on an assumption of a very generic party. The existance of Aboleths (and by extention Steve the Aboleth) as such a low CR given their potential only further my belief in such.

Tactics are very challenging to nail down the difficulty of, and the reward for defeating. Especially if the DM has tuned the encounter to just about every contingency the party might throw at the DM. The upside is that the party might come up with something very oddball and defeat the encounter with less difficulty, the downside is that they will probably get frustrated. If everything they can respond with is hit with a 'no' or 'it doesn't appear to be effective' most players just shut down rather than thinking outside the box.

Just my opinion/experience, but most DM's who I have encountered who run Tuckers Kobolds usually have an air of arrogance to them. Again, just my opinion based from experience. That arrogance comes from wanting the party to play better. Maybe they want the party to optimize better, or maybe they want the party to use better teamwork and tactics, maybe both. This desire tends to come from the DM knowledge of the encounter, knowing that the party could have done X which would have ended the combat 2 rounds earlier, or that if those two melee had flanked rather than positioning to strike separate targets, they would have hit more reliably, maybe that Ogre wouldn't have killed the fighter with that lucky crit.
"Here party, this encounter should show you how it's done."--Actual quote from a DM who threw a variant of Tuckers Kobolds at us.

Personally, I would love to see an encounter designed that really tested that teamwork and tactics, without being as brutal as Tuckers Kobolds or it's variants.