[PF] Melee druid

[NikitaDarkstar]

Right, so I posted not too long ago asking about help with a potential druid, unfortunately my request was all over the place and not very detailed for various reasons (in part because I was spazzing out like crazy cause sleep deprivation and sugar don't do good things). Either way I'm back, and I got a (hopefully) simple question.

What feats would you recommend for a level 5 melee focused druid? I already got Natural Spell (no brainer) but I'm having a heard time figuring out my other two. The most recommended guide on it (Treantmonk I believe the author was called) seems a bit dated as it seems to be missing some feats etc. so I ask you lot. what would you take for a druid that mainly wants to maul faces? Especially one that gave up the animal companion option (not an ideal choice I know, but sometimes crunch have to make way for RP :p)?

[Spore]

Any preferred combat maneuvers? Since you already seem to have an opinion on your fluff anylikely animal or elemental shapes you‘d like? What is your role? How is your party setup?

I will try to come up with sth. after work!

[grarrrg]

Shapeshifting Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shapeshifting-hunter) is worth considering.
You dip Ranger for _1_ level, and then you get FULL Favored Enemy progression.

[avr]

Consider an archetype. Menhir Savant gives you +1 caster level several times a day - relevant when buffing for example - or one of the Animal Shaman variants gives you the ability to fly or use natural attacks if for whatever reason you are not wildshaped.

For feats Power Attack is still a good start, unless you want to start on the long list of prereqs for certain style feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats). As a druid I don't think you can really afford these, but the option is there if you want to plan for Crane Wing for example. If you're likely to be fighting in difficult terrain Nimble Moves might be worthwhile. Step Up is good but is competing with Power Attack for your 3rd level feat slot. Defensive Combat Training may be handy if your DM likes combat maneuvers (trip etc.)

If you're evil, you might like the spells this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shade-of-the-uskwood) feat makes available.

There are feats to buff your wild shape ability later on - Planar Wild Shape (requires 5 ranks know[planes], you may want to start buying ranks so you can get it with your 7th level feat), Powerful Wild Shape, Quick Wild Shape, Wild Speech.

[NikitaDarkstar]

grarrrg, while I truly do appreciate the suggestion it's a bit to steep of a price for me to be willing to pay for a relatively small bonus. I'd not only be paying a feat for it, I'd also be paying with my 3rd level spells, which would cut me off from Greater Magic Fang, which would essentially mean I payed a caster level and a feat for a +1 bonus to atk and damage (the skill bonuses doesn't matter, they're either skills I don't have or have high enough bonuses in to be okay anyway). And since this is a play by post game... well, I've learned to plan for the lavel I have, not the one I'm hoping to get. So yhea, I do appreciate the suggestion, but a dip into ranger isn't really relevant in this case.

Sporeegg, I don't know the setup of the party yet as it's a play by post game and the DM hasn't picked the players yet, but basically melee damage dealer was what I had in mind, focused on feline animal shapes (it's a world of warcraft styled game, I'm going for the feral druid feel. We do have access to the world of warcraft: RPG books for all that it matters, but there isn't much in there that isn't in Pathfinder).

I suppose what I'm mainly looking for is ways to improve my damage output in animal form. Either something I can legally take to give me more damage on my natural attacks, or something that would let my natural attacks count as magical and be enchantable in the future (pretty sure there was a way to do that in 3.5, but only ever saw it done on non-shapeshifters who focused on natural attacks), or just more staying power in battle. So basically ability to stay alive and kill stuff.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Consider an archetype. Menhir Savant gives you +1 caster level several times a day - relevant when buffing for example - or one of the Animal Shaman variants gives you the ability to fly or use natural attacks if for whatever reason you are not wildshaped.

For feats Power Attack is still a good start, unless you want to start on the long list of prereqs for certain style feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-feats). As a druid I don't think you can really afford these, but the option is there if you want to plan for Crane Wing for example. If you're likely to be fighting in difficult terrain Nimble Moves might be worthwhile. Step Up is good but is competing with Power Attack for your 3rd level feat slot. Defensive Combat Training may be handy if your DM likes combat maneuvers (trip etc.)

If you're evil, you might like the spells this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shade-of-the-uskwood) feat makes available.

There are feats to buff your wild shape ability later on - Planar Wild Shape (requires 5 ranks know[planes], you may want to start buying ranks so you can get it with your 7th level feat), Powerful Wild Shape, Quick Wild Shape, Wild Speech.

I looked at the archetypes, only one that appealed was lion shaman, but that would mean I currently wouldn't have my wild shape ability, which, well, as I said, play by post game, I'm planning for what I have. And as I'm melee spell casting is secondary to me, meaning I'm not going to invest feats towards it (even if shade of the duskwood is nice'ish). I'm going for the "big angry cat in your face, trying to maul it off!"-feel more than anything else.

I'd also agree that the styles, while kind of neat are something a druid can't really afford. It would take to long to come into play, suck up to many feat slots to do it.

I don't know the DM yet (again play by post, haven't played with this guy yet), but if he starts tossing combat maneuvers at me I know what my 4th feat needs to be! :p

Really, the only thing I need help and suggestions on are the feats, I got two avalible, the 3rd slot taken already (although most DM's don't really seem to care much about the order feats were taken in :p ). Power attack is an option that the handbooks mentioned, but is it really worth it considering the druids already less than ideal BAB (I got a total attack bonus of +7 right now. Granted no strength boosting items as I haven't gotten that far, but it makes me question if I'd actually hit if I tried to use power attack, or would it interact differently with natural attacks than it would say a fighters great-sword?)? Also do you have a source for Powerful, Planar and Quick Wildshape? They don't seem to be on the pf20srd? :) (And no if they're 3.5 they're not valid options, unfortunately)

[avr]

Those feats are definitely on the d20pfsrd, check under General Feats. Here's Planar Wild Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/planar-wild-shape).

On Power Attack. Supposing you change into a cat or bear with 3 natural attacks, you take a -1 to hit on each for +2 damage each, +6 damage total. That's worthwhile. OTOH Step Up is good against archers and casters; you choose.

The animal shamans don't remove your first wildshape, read them carefully. They don't even change it until you reach 6th level, and you're not there yet.

Edit: The reason I mention the order is that Power Attack and Step Up each require +1 BAB, which you don't have at 1st level. If you've got Natural Spell as your 5th level feat, and some feat you haven't named as the 3rd level feat, then the feat(s) you get at 1st level can't include Power Attack or Step Up.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Okay, that is weird. I tried to look them up through the Feat Tree and couldn't find them, that's what got me confused. o.O'

I agree, Power Attack IS worth while then, take the penalty on secondary attacks and boost the primary.

And I'll stand corrected. I could have sworn on my grandmothers grave that I read that you didn't gain wildshape until 6th level on the animal shaman archetypes, cause I was originally meaning to take Lion Shaman, caught sight of that, and edited my sheet.

Well, Lion Shaman it is. And jsut one feat to go then. :)

[Urpriest]

For cat-types, Multiattack is pretty necessary, though I don't know whether Pathfinder's policy on taking feats you only qualify for some of the time is different than 3.5's.

You'll eventually likely want Improved Unarmed Strike, but depending on comparative to-hit bonuses and Str this may be late enough that pbp means you shouldn't worry about it.

If you want to dabble in grappling (big cats ain't bad at it), then the grapple chain could be of use.

[magotter]

I'm a fan of dipping monk, and nowhere in PF is it better than for a melee druid. I'll get into the benefits below, but before that, let me suggest you take Shaping Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shaping-focus) as a feat. It will overcome the Wildshaping penalty you get for being a shaman. I'd say make it your level 7 feat, however, as Natural Spell is still more important.

Now then, a General 2-level Monk dip will get you:

+3 to all saves
+Wisdom to all three AC types, as well as CMD
Improved Unarmed Damage
The ability to stack Iterative attacks with your natural weapons*


*If you attack with a combination Natural and other weapons, you can still use Primary Attacks (Like the Bite/Claw from Lion Shaman), simply treating them as Secondary Attacks instead (meaning you take a -5 to use them). So at middle/upper levels you can punch/kick/elbow your foes using normal BAB attack progression, and then use all three natural attacks at BAB-5.

Additionally, taking the Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles) and Monk of the Sacred Mountain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-sacred-mountain) archetypes will net you:

Crane Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-style-combat-style) and Crane Wing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-wing-combat) Feats
Toughness Feat, and a permanent +1 Racial Bonus Natural AC (stacks with other Nat ACs)


And if you act now and take Human as your race, we'll throw in the Dodge feat for free, and bump that Crane Wing up to Crane Riposte (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/crane-riposte-combat)! Doing so adds an extra +1 Dodge AC, lessens the Fighting Defenseively penalty by 1, and gives you a free attack on your opponent every round.

---------

In all seriousness, Crane Style is a potent and impressively easy to stack combo for melee anything, and the dip will ensure you'll never need to worry about AC for the whole game. For the uninformed, here's a breakdown:
By default, you can (as a free action) choose to Fight Defensively and gain a +2 Dodge AC bonus while taking a -4 Attack penalty. Initially Crane Style takes the Attack Penalty down to -2 and bumps the Dodge AC to a total of +3. Crane Riposte takes the penalty down to -1. So that's -1 Attack and +3 Dodge AC.

However, if you take 3 ranks in Acrobatics, that adds +1 to the same Dodge AC, and the Dodge Feat adds another +1. So that's a total of -1 Attack, +5 Dodge AC. This, of course, all stacks with your Wisdom (or Wis+1 with monk's robes), your Dex, and any gear you get (remember clothes can get an Armor Enchantment and can stack with Bracers of Armor).

So with that short dip, you'll have a lot less weight on your shoulders worrying about AC -and- saves. The only downside I can reckon is that you're down one Spell Level (you'll still get 9th level spells, but when others get 5th level spells, you get 4th, and so on). Even as a Shaman you get your Shapeshifting at Druid 2 (Level 4), which puts you on par with a normal druid (who just gets wild shape at Druid 4).

If you do take this route, take the Magical Knack trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack). it will grant +2 CL, so that while your spell selection might be down a bit, your spell potency is right on par.

[magotter]

For cat-types, Multiattack is pretty necessary, though I don't know whether Pathfinder's policy on taking feats you only qualify for some of the time is different than 3.5's.

I had asked this in another thread earlier and the ruling from paizo is that you have to qualify 100% of the time. That is, temporary natural weapons don't let you qualify.

Now, that said, being either a Tengu with the Claw alternate racial traits or a lizardman will start you with 3 natural attacks, thereby qualifying you. Good for those blender-of-death builds.

[magotter]

Addendum: Don't forget that as an alternative to Power Attack, that Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) is a thing. Power Attack is less Feat intensive, but requires a good Strength Score, making you more M.A.D. If you're relatively certain it will be possible to get an (Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile)) Amulet of Mighty Fists (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-mighty-fists) (which you can actually just craft since the spell needed is on your list) you can dump Strength entirely and just go the Weapon Finesse / Piranha Strike route. Then you've got Dex to Hit and Damage, and can scale it up like a power attack.

[Spore]

Listen to magotter he gives GOOD advice. Consider the Heroism Subdomain for the Aura of Heroism to buff your standard action summoned big cats with Heroism and the summoning tree.

Giving your big kitties +4 on attack and damage rolls is pretty hefty.

[magotter]

Listen to magotter he gives GOOD advice. Consider the Heroism Subdomain for the Aura of Heroism to buff your standard action summoned big cats with Heroism and the summoning tree.

Giving your big kitties +4 on attack and damage rolls is pretty hefty.

The vote of confidence is always appreciated. Heroism is a good battle domain. Personally I'd say either Feather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/animal-domain/feather) or Weather (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/weather-domain), though. It's a purely personal preference, but as it's been revealed in other threads, taking Feather Domain (plus the Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) Feat) will net you the domain slots, an animal companion, and 1/2 Level on all Perception checks. The latter benefit is minor, given that even battle druids need moderately good Wis, but its nice.

I opt for Weather domain, all said in done. It'll give a nice suite of Control spells so you can keep your other slots free for better buff, battle, and utility spells. The initial power isn't really anything to write home about, and the second isn't exactly wondrous, but it is a fairly good way to dish out some decent AoE damage at the start of a fight and put a dent in enemies that are far across the field.

[avr]

Multiattack is unnecessary unless you're using weapons (or magotter's Monk dip), Paizo is happy to let you have multiple primary natural attacks. Here's an example, the leopard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/cat-great/leopard).

The downside of a monk dip is that while you can stay in wildshape for hours at a time, lion shaman shapeshifting lasts (druid level) minutes/day and the dip means you don't yet get wildshape. You'll need to spend a standard action starting the shapeshift each fight, or fight as a low-level monk. PbP often doesn't last long enough to go up many levels.

[Spore]

The downside of a monk dip is that while you can stay in wildshape for hours at a time, lion shaman shapeshifting lasts (druid level) minutes/day and the dip means you don't yet get wildshape.

Do not be so vague. Totem Transformation lasts for Minutes/level while Wildshape lasts for hours/level.

[avr]

Quite true, but I thought that unnecessary precision to the point being made.

[Spore]

Quite true, but I thought that unnecessary precision to the point being made.

I do not consider distinguishing between two entirely different class features "unnecessary precision". True both are shifting abilities that alter your appearance but you can't just call it wildshape. You even confused me for a second and I have played a Bear Shaman.

If you called it shifting, or transforming or anything bar the actual name of the Druid's feature, it wouldn't have confused me.

For feats I would STRONGLY suggest Toughness. My bear shaman was killed by the crit of a lackey (medium con + d8 kicked my ass here, 56 hp by 7th level).

[magotter]

The downside of a monk dip is that while you can stay in wildshape for hours at a time, lion shaman shapeshifting lasts (druid level) minutes/day and the dip means you don't yet get wildshape. You'll need to spend a standard action starting the shapeshift each fight, or fight as a low-level monk. PbP often doesn't last long enough to go up many levels.

Please don't think of me as trying to be defensive, but allow me to explain further my thinking with the dip:

While you are down 2 minutes per day for the Totem Shifting, each application will be (more-or-less) an entire combat. Unless you're in the Big Epic Boss Fight. And even then by the time you get there, you ought to be about level 5 or 6, and should have that extra application available, as Totem Shifting out of combat is going to be a rare and situational thing. The point of the dip was that for a moderate delay (2 levels isn't light, but still hardly the end of the world), you're adding and front-loading so much defensive prowess and special ability that it is more than balanced out. And since PBP games don't level progress much, I think it all the more reason to front-load.

Also, with Totem Shifting, you won't really need or be using Wildshape as often for combat. At least not until you can slip into a Dire Tiger form and/or get access to a beast with Pounce, or the ability to use Elemental bodies. By then you'll also be able to nab Shaping Focus too, which overcomes the both Shaman's limitations on Shifting as well as the setback from the dip. Between it and the Magical Knack trait you'll be at full CL and full WS, and only be down the Casting Slots / Max Spell Level.

Additionally, all this will let you reserve your WS uses for more utility effects, like Recon (as an eagle or rat and similar), Tracking (any number of Scented animals), or Situational events (Fish for swimming, tiny animals for squeezing, etc).

[Spore]

Hm, I see the beauty in going Shaman (-2 on non totem animal related shifts) plus Monk 2 because Shifting Focus fits PERFECTLY. The beauty being of simple mathematical nature.

Also while I DETEST dipping full casters, I see the great utility and defenses you get from dipping. And if shaping is all you want to do, there is nothing to gain from that feature past lv 12 druid. I know, I know, caster levels but if you don't want to be the primary caster, you could snag thousand faces by 13 (ECL 15) and then add in 4 levels of fighter. Or weapon master 3 (for feats and weapon training for natural weapons) and inquisitor 2 (wis bonus on additional stuff like initiative, knowledge and social skills.

Netting in Master of Many Styles 2/Lion Shaman 13/Weapon Master 3/Inquisitor 2. It's no straight Druid 20, and it lacks the versatility of spell casting, but it cuts the spell prep time, is still highly competitive and likely cuts down the powerful druid to tier 2 to not outshine your comrades on every move.