[3.5e] Philosophical discussion on Craft[Spell] != Spellcraft

[RealMarkP]

The Craft skill is dynamic. It can be defined to mean Blacksmithing, Basketweaving, Tattooing and so forth.

At a high level overview, a blacksmith can use Craft[Blacksmithing] to analyze a sword and determine it's quality. Much to the same extent that Spellcraft can be used to understand a spell effect.

So, why can't it be used for crafting spells? What is it about Spellcraft that requires it to have it's own skill entry? Is it an arbitrary line in the sand?

[BWR]

Because there are a lot more mechanics regarding spells than crafting?
I think you are just being mislead by the word 'craft'. In the case of spellcraft (and woodcraft and other similar words) it doesn't mean 'create' it means 'knowledge'. So a better question is why is there Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana)?

[HaikenEdge]

Because there are a lot more mechanics regarding spells than crafting?
I think you are just being mislead by the word 'craft'. In the case of spellcraft (and woodcraft and other similar words) it doesn't mean 'create' it means 'knowledge'. So a better question is why is there Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana)?

In this sense "spellcraft" is closer to "tradecraft" and "warcraft" than "handicraft".

[RealMarkP]

Because there are a lot more mechanics regarding spells than crafting?
I think you are just being mislead by the word 'craft'. In the case of spellcraft (and woodcraft and other similar words) it doesn't mean 'create' it means 'knowledge'. So a better question is why is there Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana)?

I think of the difference between Knowledge and Craft as the following: Consider a software developer. His Knowledge check would encapsulate logic, design, and how the software inter-operates with other processes. The Craft check would be actually writing the code, using syntax and so on.

[Ravens_cry]

I think of the difference between Knowledge and Craft as the following: Consider a software developer. His Knowledge check would encapsulate logic, design, and how the software inter-operates with other processes. The Craft check would be actually writing the code, using syntax and so on.
And Profession: Software Engineer is (mostly) the pay he makes as a code-monkey.

[Slipperychicken]

What is it about Spellcraft that requires it to have it's own skill entry? Is it an arbitrary line in the sand?

Spellcraft also handles knowledge skills, working with spells, and all manner of interactions which need their own rules spelled out. It's far more versatile and useful than a craft skill could ever be.

Also, spellcraft isn't about crafting or building. There's so much more to it that it couldn't fit into a Craft skill.

If you want to "craft" spells, spell research does precisely that and requires a Spellcraft check to discover/develop new spells.

[RealMarkP]

So let me ask you guys this: What aspects/mechanics of Spellcraft can be shared with Knowledge [Arcana] and/or Craft[Spell]?

I see that Knowledge [Arcana] can be used to identify glyphs, compose new spells, read magical script (such as on scrolls), prepare from borrowed books, and determine the result of a spell. This knowledge seems like an integral part to read and parsing magical things.

[TuggyNE]

The Craft skill is dynamic. It can be defined to mean Blacksmithing, Basketweaving, Tattooing and so forth.

At a high level overview, a blacksmith can use Craft[Blacksmithing] to analyze a sword and determine it's quality. Much to the same extent that Spellcraft can be used to understand a spell effect.

So, why can't it be used for crafting spells? What is it about Spellcraft that requires it to have it's own skill entry? Is it an arbitrary line in the sand?

Spellcraft doesn't make physical objects in any way. Even researching a new spell only involves notetaking and the recording of the new spell as a relatively minor part; most of the work is in figuring out how the magic will operate. All Craft subskills share the same trait, and that trait is that they are about producing a new physical object from existing know-how and materials.

[MonochromeTiger]

In this sense "spellcraft" is closer to "tradecraft" and "warcraft" than "handicraft".

I personally agree with this. "spellcraft" has always been described to me as the understanding of magic and its uses and not as a means of making a magical effect come about. spellcraft could be used to determine what an observed spell was or did but it would take more than merely knowing about something to create it (which is why you can take knowledge: architecture and still need craft skills to make a building). and having mentioned it elsewhere, does 3.5 actually HAVE a "craft spell" skill? because all the spell creation rules I've seen have left it open to any spellcaster just needing to spend time and possibly reagents on creating a new spell for their list.

[JoshuaZ]

Knowledge(Arcana) also handles things like knowing the legend of some powerful mage, or knowing that a wizard academy somewhere teaches everyone a certain set of spells, or other things that are setting dependent.

What would happen to balance if we collapsed them?

At a balance level, collapsing Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana) would make a spellcasters (who are already in the T1/T2) range even stronger. Most spellcasters at least are restricted by not having many skill points, and this would for many spellcasters effectively give them an additional 1 skill point each level. Moreover, many PrCs would become easier to qualify for. Archmage is the most obvious one, but it would also be nice for those going into Loremaster or Mystic Theurge, and that's just in core. Loremaster is already so easy to fall into that many wizard builds fall into it automatically, and in this case it would be even stronger.

I don't think this will change anyone's tier. It would help make truenamers slightly more playable because they could then use their knowledge bonuses to help identify spells, but that wouldn't stop them from still being Tier undefined and mainly sucky. Most of the impact would be on the T1s and T2s, with slight impact for the middle tiers; a dread necromancer, warlock or warmage would be happy with this also. So, you could make this adjustment with probably not too much impact on actual play. It might matter more in low-op games because then the few skill points a T1 or T2 has might actually matter.

[Carth]

Spellcraft is probably separate from knowledge (arcana) because otherwise you'd probably need to make separate checks for divine spells using knowledge (religion).

[JoshuaZ]

Spellcraft is probably separate from knowledge (arcana) because otherwise you'd probably need to make separate checks for divine spells using knowledge (religion).

I'm not sure, you could plausibly say there power came from divine sources, but that they were doing magic. So maybe rename it knowledge(magic) to emphasize that it wasn't just arcane magic?

[MonochromeTiger]

Spellcraft is probably separate from knowledge (arcana) because otherwise you'd probably need to make separate checks for divine spells using knowledge (religion).

fairly sure spellcraft and knowledge arcane are separated by the same thing that separates stories and visual examples. knowledge: arcane may very well tell you how many participants were involved in a ritual to link two planes or the color the dribbly candles have to be in order to get the best lighting for scroll writing, but spellcraft tells you what you're seeing right now, how to counter, how to deal with the effects, the relative strength.