(3.5) Orc cleric of... Correlon?!

[gurgleflep]

Okay, this is just a whacky idea I've had for a while that I really wanna have help with :smalltongue: I plan on using this as a character at some point and would like to have a bit more thought behind it - what better place to ask than you lovely people? :smallbiggrin:

As we all know, Corellon Larethian absolutely despises the orcs. So, what would happen if an orc decided to worship him and the orc, despite outward appearances was convinced that (s)he was actually an elf? Would said orc be granted their spells? How would elves treat one of these clerics? What about orcs?

Edit: Also, build help would be awesome ._. I've never played a cleric, I usually go with barbarian or fighter. All sources but PF and the various magazines are able to be used.

[Daefos]

The way we've always played, a racial deity wouldn't accept someone as a cleric unless they belonged to the race they governed. If an orc wants to worship Corellon, that's fine and dandy, but if you want to be a cleric of Corellon? Better roll an elf.

But honestly, I've never seen that in the books anywhere. I posting primarily to see if this is a house rule. :smallredface:

[Nettlekid]

The way we've always played, a racial deity wouldn't accept someone as a cleric unless they belonged to the race they governed. If an orc wants to worship Corellon, that's fine and dandy, but if you want to be a cleric of Corellon? Better roll an elf.

But honestly, I've never seen that in the books anywhere. I posting primarily to see if this is a house rule. :smallredface:

This is in fact the actual rule, listed in the Cleric section of the PHB. It's exactly as you say: A racial deity can have Clerics only of that race. Worshippers of other races yes, but Clerics no.

[gurgleflep]

Well that's a bummer :smallfrown: I was looking forward to running around as an orc convinced it was an elf :smallsigh:

[Icewraith]

The only way I can see this working is if an elf cleric ended up getting reincarnated by a druid instead of resurrected normally.

Granted, a sufficiently peeved elf cleric might off himself and tell the druid to try again, the orc-elf thing is that bad.

[Zombulian]

Could a Changeling use racial emulation to be a Cleric of any god?

[Nettlekid]

Well that's a bummer :smallfrown: I was looking forward to running around as an orc convinced it was an elf :smallsigh:

You could perhaps convince your DM to let the Ruathar PrC apply the same qualities with regard to Elves as the Stoneblessed PrC does with Dwarves, Gnomes, or Goliaths. Namely, at the end of the third level, you count as that race for all purposes pertaining to race. Then you could enter Cleric as an "Elf." Now, to find Elves that will name an Orc "Elf-Friend" is a challenge in and of itself.

[gurgleflep]

The only way I can see this working is if an elf cleric ended up getting reincarnated by a druid instead of resurrected normally.

Granted, a sufficiently peeved elf cleric might off himself and tell the druid to try again, the orc-elf thing is that bad.

The visual image for that made me laugh. I'm sick and have been rather annoyed all day, so thank you for this :smallsmile:


Could a Changeling use racial emulation to be a Cleric of any god?

I can't think of a reason why that one wouldn't work.
I know next to nothing about changlings though other than they're a cross between a human and a doppleganger and they can shapechange so I hope somebody else can answer this one too.


You could perhaps convince your DM to let the Ruathar PrC apply the same qualities with regard to Elves as the Stoneblessed PrC does with Dwarves, Gnomes, or Goliaths. Namely, at the end of the third level, you count as that race for all purposes pertaining to race. Then you could enter Cleric as an "Elf." Now, to find Elves that will name an Orc "Elf-Friend" is a challenge in and of itself.

That PrC's in Races of Stone, right?
Why do elves have to be such jerks?! :smalltongue::smallannoyed:

[Callin]

Toss in that he actual receives all his spells from a trickster deity who is doing this for a lark to get one over on Corellion and you should be good to go.

[Icewraith]

It's always nice to make someone's day. :)


On the thought of trickster deities, a particularly stupid orc could unknowingly be a cleric of the concept or cause of elfishness, which would give him access to the domains a cleric of Corellon might have.

There's going to be some trouble the first time he uses Contact Outer PLane to have a chat with "his" deity however.

Edit: There was also a thread somewhere about playing a completely mundane character that thinks he's a wizard. Stuff like yelling "launch bolt" and throwing crossbow bolts at people, or saying "discern location!", then moving purposefully in a randomly chosen direction. If it turns out to be definitively the wrong direction "the target moved."

The problem is that it's not very convincing as a cleric unless you're carrying around loads of potions of cure X wounds and chunking them at peopel who need healing. I suppose you could just call your shield "shield of faith!" and claim you sneeze on people to cast bless.

"ACHOO!!"
"eww... um... bless you?"
"no, me bless YOU"

Carry around a stack of longswords (Corellon's favored weapon) to throw at people (spiritual weapon). That sort of thing.

[Vertharrad]

I'm not sure if it's RAW but racial domains should also be restricted to the race in question(or 1/2 race where appropriate). I also thought any of the races could be a cleric of the human deities...was I wrong???

[gurgleflep]

Toss in that he actual receives all his spells from a trickster deity who is doing this for a lark to get one over on Corellion and you should be good to go.


It's always nice to make someone's day. :)


On the thought of trickster deities, a particularly stupid orc could unknowingly be a cleric of the concept or cause of elfishness, which would give him access to the domains a cleric of Corellon might have.

There's going to be some trouble the first time he uses Contact Outer PLane to have a chat with "his" deity however.

Edit: There was also a thread somewhere about playing a completely mundane character that thinks he's a wizard. Stuff like yelling "launch bolt" and throwing crossbow bolts at people, or saying "discern location!", then moving purposefully in a randomly chosen direction. If it turns out to be definitively the wrong direction "the target moved."

The problem is that it's not very convincing as a cleric unless you're carrying around loads of potions of cure X wounds and chunking them at peopel who need healing. I suppose you could just call your shield "shield of faith!" and claim you sneeze on people to cast bless.

"ACHOO!!"
"eww... um... bless you?"
"no, me bless YOU"

Carry around a stack of longswords (Corellon's favored weapon) to throw at people (spiritual weapon). That sort of thing.

Have either of you got examples of such deities? I'm not near any of my books at the moment.

I've seen that build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195049) :smallbiggrin:


I'm not sure if it's RAW but racial domains should also be restricted to the race in question(or 1/2 race where appropriate). I also thought any of the races could be a cleric of the human deities...was I wrong???

I don't know on this one ._. Cleric newbie here.

[Vedhin]

There's info on this basic concept in the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Basically, you play a cleric of an ideal. Choose 2 of Corellon's domains, and roleplay accordingly. Said orcs are fully aware of their orcishness, however.

[lunar2]

you have to be human (or human descended, like half elf) to be a cleric of a human deity.

there is no RAW restriction on taking racial domains.

[Angelalex242]

I could see the orc actually being a cleric of Olidarma, say, but the first time he meets a real cleric of Corellon, the jig is up, most likely with extreme prejudice. Literally.

Elsewhere, in the godly realms.
Olidarma:*LMFAO*
Corellon:Dude, not funny.
Olidarma:If you could see the look on your face...*creates mirror*

[Callin]

God of DECEPTION. There really is no set ruleset for something like that. Its a means to an end of Backstory and Fluff that can actually cause crisis of faith issues.

I do recall in the Forgotten Realms the Orc Paladin who thought he was a Paladin of Torm (correct me if im wrong its been a long time since I read the book) but it was actually the Over God AO. So there is that precedent in the novels for something like this to happen.

[Daefos]

This is in fact the actual rule, listed in the Cleric section of the PHB. It's exactly as you say: A racial deity can have Clerics only of that race. Worshippers of other races yes, but Clerics no.

Ah, good to know, thanks.

...Our kobold cleric of Bahamut just got a little funnier. :smalltongue:

[BWR]

If you want to be one of those annoying RAW-whiners, Favored Soul doesn't have a racial limit the way cleric does, IIRC. And a more martially inclined character seems appropriate for an orc.

Personally I'd disallow it on RAW-whining basis alone but if you could come up with some really good backstory I would probably allow you to play a cleric.
Because sure Corellon hates orcs but what's the best way to hurt them: kill all on sight or actually manage to convert one?
What better way to tweak Gruumsh' nose than saying "look, I'm so awesome even your own people prefer me to you."?

[Lanaya]

you have to be human (or human descended, like half elf) to be a cleric of a human deity.

there is no RAW restriction on taking racial domains.

Do human deities exist? I think there might be one human supremacist deity in some obscure splatbook somewhere, but humans are pretty poorly represented in the god department.

[cakellene]

God of DECEPTION. There really is no set ruleset for something like that. Its a means to an end of Backstory and Fluff that can actually cause crisis of faith issues.

I do recall in the Forgotten Realms the Orc Paladin who thought he was a Paladin of Torm (correct me if im wrong its been a long time since I read the book) but it was actually the Over God AO. So there is that precedent in the novels for something like this to happen.

Ao has no followers iirc.

[Bullet06320]

you have to be human (or human descended, like half elf) to be a cleric of a human deity.

there is no RAW restriction on taking racial domains.

Gond in the Forgotten Realms allows gnomes as clergy

im not aware of anyother exeptions

[hamishspence]

I do recall in the Forgotten Realms the Orc Paladin who thought he was a Paladin of Torm (correct me if im wrong its been a long time since I read the book) but it was actually the Over God AO. So there is that precedent in the novels for something like this to happen.

It's not that he was receiving power from Ao- it was just that Ao speaks to him once- and only because he was fighting a group of cultists falsely claiming to receive their power from Ao at the time.

He was an Orog (slightly taller and more dangerous Orc variant, from the Underdark).

[Callin]

It's not that he was receiving power from Ao- it was just that Ao speaks to him once- and only because he was fighting a group of cultists falsely claiming to receive their power from Ao at the time.

He was an Orog (slightly taller and more dangerous Orc variant, from the Underdark).

No he was actually his one and only follower. Ao was using the other god for deception so people didnt know it was him. I really really really wish I could remember the book name. He had a cheesy named sword as well. Its all in the back of my brain and I cant remember other than it happened like that memory of a night out drinking. lol

[G.Cube]

This is in fact the actual rule, listed in the Cleric section of the PHB. It's exactly as you say: A racial deity can have Clerics only of that race. Worshippers of other races yes, but Clerics no.

So what happens with Dark Elves?

[BWR]

You mean 'can drow who worship Corellon become clerics'?
I don't see why not. Unusual but I would think C would be glad to see some return to the fold.

[hamishspence]

I have the book, it's called War in Tethyr- and the context of the "Ao speaks to the orog paladin of Torm" scene was pretty clear- it was the only time Ao granted that paladin's prayer.

[Callin]

I have the book, it's called War in Tethyr- and the context of the "Ao speaks to the orog paladin of Torm" scene was pretty clear- it was the only time Ao granted that paladin's prayer.

OK cool. Like it said its been years since I read it. I got the book somewhere but im not climbing in my mothers attic anytime soon to check. Fuzzy memories and what not. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Seto]

Do human deities exist? I think there might be one human supremacist deity in some obscure splatbook somewhere, but humans are pretty poorly represented in the god department.

Zarus in Races of Destiny.

Apart from him, I do believe there are no human racial deities, and any Elf or Dwarf can be a cleric of Pelor if they want to.

[hamishspence]

OK cool. Like it said its been years since I read it. I got the book somewhere but im not climbing in my mothers attic anytime soon to check. Fuzzy memories and what not. Thanks for clearing it up.

The precise scene:



Shield of Innocence took the bloodstained amulet from about his chest and laid it on Stillhawk's unmoving breast. "O, Torm," he prayed, "O, True and Brave, please listen! Your dog begs you, do not let this soul slip out of the world. No-one is truer and braver than he, and we have-"
He coughed up blood. "We have not enough hands to fight the evil that waits below. I know ... I have not served you long enough to earn the power to bring him back. And I won't ever, for this day I die. But please ... please give him back his life, for his sake, for those poor brave women down there, for this whole world!"
Tears streamed down his cheeks. "Good Torm, I beg you!"
A shimmer in the stinking air before him. A tiny point of radiance, intolerably bright, expanding to a miniature sun. The brilliance dazzled his heat-sensitive eyes, threatening to burn them out, yet it filled his soul with warmth and peace such as he had never known.
Shield of Innocence, said a voice in his mind, who well have justified your name: you alone of mortals in this world have I addressed through all the ages, and you alone shall I so address. Torm hears you, and through Him, I hear.
My name has been taken in vain. You have chosen to redress this evil, knowing what the cost would be. So be it: your wish is granted.
The light flared, expanded, enveloped Shield so that it seemed he would be consumed by it, as by the heart of a sun. Then it went out.
The ranger opened his eyes.

[Jgosse]

High Cleric Of Correlon

day 1
"My half-elf grand daughter got her self knocked up by an orc. you know the one the child of that no good adventuring lout of a son and his Wizard "

Day 67
"My son and his wife dead slain by x , no the last time he was hear I was horible to him"

Day 68
"Dear I am sorry to tell you your parents are dead."
"Grandfather what shall I do"
"I will take care of you child"

Day XXX (not sure how long it would take the baby to develop.)
"sir I am afraid your grand daughter did not survive the birth, but her son is alive and well"
"I will raise him as he were my own"


back story for a elven blooded half orc.

[Twilightwyrm]

That PrC's in Races of Stone, right?
Why do elves have to be such jerks?! :smalltongue::smallannoyed:

Might have something to do with the near genocidal war the two races have been waging against each other since their respective origins. That tends to sour relations between peoples.

[JeenLeen]

I'd say just ask your GM if he'd allow it without a complicated backstory (like having elf blood somewhere in the past.) If not, use a complicated backstory or be a cleric of the ideal of elfishness or something like that.

For build, you'd probably be a good Cleric-zilla if you want to go that route. Cleric is one of the better classes, so even with medium optimization you can go pretty good. I don't know the racial mods of an orc off-hand. Your lowered Cha will hurt your Turn Undead powers, but that's not necessarily critical. Just keep your Wisdom high, a Dex of 12 max (since full plate only allows +1 Dex mod), and let your racial mods give you good physical stats. You could play it as a fighter/barbarian with good spellcasting, basically.

Probably get a few ranks of Speak Language to know Elven and Celestial. Your low Int will probably have you just with Orc and Common to start with.

For flavor, using your deity's weapon would be a good idea. Maybe even carry a shield with a desecrated holy symbol of Gruumish (sp) on it, to show how you no longer serve the Orc god.

[Coidzor]

Does the RAW ever touch upon reincarnation and how it effect pre-reqs and things like being a cleric of a racial deity? :smallconfused:

I don't think it does.

I wonder if this has been addressed/listed in the Dysfunctional Rules handbook/compendium/wossname.


Do human deities exist? I think there might be one human supremacist deity in some obscure splatbook somewhere, but humans are pretty poorly represented in the god department.

Zarus, Races of Destiny. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a)

[Vedhin]

Does the RAW ever touch upon reincarnation and how it effect pre-reqs and things like being a cleric of a racial deity? :smallconfused:

I don't think it does.

I know that an online article by Keith Baker mentions Dragonmarks. They persist upon Reincarnation, but cannot be passed on to your descendants. Unless you Reincarnate as your original species of course.

[Toliudar]

Couldn't an orc just read Tolkein, discover that he's just an elf subverted to evil, and decide to get in touch with his inner elfiness? :smallamused:

[Urpriest]

Does the RAW ever touch upon reincarnation and how it effect pre-reqs and things like being a cleric of a racial deity? :smallconfused:

I don't think it does.

I wonder if this has been addressed/listed in the Dysfunctional Rules handbook/compendium/wossname.


It might be, but really it's a lot deeper than that. "Race" in general is never defined in D&D. There are lots of PrCs and feats and whatnot with racial requirements, but except for a few examples they never specify what the boundaries of a given race are. Are you a member of that race if you have a template? If you're a subrace? If you're shapeshifted/body-switched/etc? I have no idea why they didn't just stick to subtypes and other things that are actually part of the rules.

[Vertharrad]

Couldn't an orc just read Tolkein, discover that he's just an elf subverted to evil, and decide to get in touch with his inner elfiness? :smallamused:

Answer - that's Middle-Earth, this is D&D; orc's aren't corrupted elves in D&D(that's drow, dark elves).

[Phelix-Mu]

I personally see no problem with the general suggestion. Most gods welcome new servants when they can get them, and if the orc is genuine in his worship and devotion, then I think Corellon might just go for it. The orc would no doubt face great racism from most elves, and probably have to jump through hoops that other elven clerics would never have to deal with, but such is the nature of faith generally. One has faith in stark defiance of the strictures of reality and general perceptions, and such trials often only temper faith.

I'm in favor of allowing it in this case, but maybe a more lawful deity wouldn't go for it? In the end, it's pretty much up to the god who can serve, and that's a role play call on behalf of the DM.

[Honest Tiefling]

I wonder if winging it with an elfy, but not truly elven deity would work. In Forgotten Realms in 2nd edition, IIRC, Mielikki was worshiped as an half-elven deity in some regions. A similar nature deity also worshiped by elves might work in other campaign settings.

[gurgleflep]

Everybody, I'm not commenting but I'm still here... kinda stuck in bed at the moment - limited internet access and typing replies on a phone is a pain. I've read everything ya'll have said and am very thankful for your thoughts, opinions, and general comments :smallsmile:

Now I'm gonna lie down again, just wanted you lot to know I'm still here.

[Sam K]

I personally see no problem with the general suggestion. Most gods welcome new servants when they can get them, and if the orc is genuine in his worship and devotion, then I think Corellon might just go for it. The orc would no doubt face great racism from most elves, and probably have to jump through hoops that other elven clerics would never have to deal with, but such is the nature of faith generally. One has faith in stark defiance of the strictures of reality and general perceptions, and such trials often only temper faith.

I'm in favor of allowing it in this case, but maybe a more lawful deity wouldn't go for it? In the end, it's pretty much up to the god who can serve, and that's a role play call on behalf of the DM.

I disagree. While it's true that most gods will take converts and servants when they can get them, I think being a racial diety complicates it. One of the "selling points" for a racial diety is that they are exclusive for that race. If Corellon starts granting powers to dwarves and humans and gnomes, why should the elves revere him as their patron? Being part of the church of stuck up, pouncy elves is an exclusive club, and if they start letting in just ANYONE... well, you get it!

The fact that part of Corellons legend is his war against the orc racial gods make it even worse. Many of Corellons worshipers and priests have fought the orcs, and lost friends and loved ones to them. How would they react if he started granting a part of his power to the very race he use to battle?

Religion in D&D is very much a buyers market. Your levels as a cleric is not tied to one god. If you decide Corellon is getting too soft on the orc issue, you can convert to another diety. You may lose some rank in the church, but you're keeping your levels and power.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Abandoned orc baby raised by an elf paladin. Never told he's an orc and has the mindset of an elf, just knows he's a bit different. Becomes religious and Big C accepts.

[Isamu Dyson]

If Corellon starts granting powers to dwarves and humans and gnomes, why should the elves revere him as their patron?

Patron or no, he would still be their creator.

By the way...elves don't have to be stuck up.

[gurgleflep]

Abandoned orc baby raised by an elf paladin. Never told he's an orc and has the mindset of an elf, just knows he's a bit different. Becomes religious and Big C accepts.

I like this idea. This might just be crazy enough to work :smallbiggrin:


Patron or no, he would still be their creator.

By the way...elves don't have to be stuck up.

Who's creator?

True, but all the DMs I've played with personally have portrayed them as such :smallfrown:

[Phelix-Mu]

I disagree. While it's true that most gods will take converts and servants when they can get them, I think being a racial diety complicates it. One of the "selling points" for a racial diety is that they are exclusive for that race. If Corellon starts granting powers to dwarves and humans and gnomes, why should the elves revere him as their patron? Being part of the church of stuck up, pouncy elves is an exclusive club, and if they start letting in just ANYONE... well, you get it!

The fact that part of Corellons legend is his war against the orc racial gods make it even worse. Many of Corellons worshipers and priests have fought the orcs, and lost friends and loved ones to them. How would they react if he started granting a part of his power to the very race he use to battle?

Religion in D&D is very much a buyers market. Your levels as a cleric is not tied to one god. If you decide Corellon is getting too soft on the orc issue, you can convert to another diety. You may lose some rank in the church, but you're keeping your levels and power.

I dunno. A lot of this sounds like "mortal logic." If gods are supposed to be like their worshipers, but something more, than a CG god of awesome being awesome by defying expectations? That seems kind of appropriate to me. A key tenet of elven thought (and CG mindset generally) is the importance of individuality and the value of each person over the society as a whole. Unless we suppose racism is somehow engrained in CG behavior, then I tend to think of Corellon being the elven god because Corellon is the best elf that any elf could be, and then some. And, ideally, CG elves should dislike/fight/kill orcs because they are evil, not because they are orcs. If a given orc proves not to be evil, then any good elf would do well to get over their racial enmity.

And I was making a case for a single orc worshiper, not widespread orc worship. It's unlikely enough in the isolated case.

[Coidzor]

Who's creator?

Elveses. That's part of the idea behind most racial deities when the racial pantheon is condensed down to a father/mother figure.

[gurgleflep]

Elveses. That's part of the idea behind most racial deities when the racial pantheon is condensed down to a father/mother figure.

Ah, gotcha. I should have realized that, thank you.

[Vertharrad]

So you being raised by elves(not happenen...but I'll give it a possible), you ignore the fact that there are stark differences between you and start worshipping Corellon. Most of his followers jump ship to another deity cutting down his own deific power since other orcs stay with their own pantheon. Nice you just gave it to Gruumsh green skin, he now kicks Correlons *** severely because big elf daddy didn't consider his position. I have seen a half-orc paladin of heironeous, fine...don't screw over Corellon, what did he ever do to you?

[Honest Tiefling]

So you being raised by elves(not happenen...but I'll give it a possible), you ignore the fact that there are stark differences between you and start worshipping Corellon. Most of his followers jump ship to another deity cutting down his own deific power since other orcs stay with their own pantheon. Nice you just gave it to Gruumsh green skin, he now kicks Correlons *** severely because big elf daddy didn't consider his position. I have seen a half-orc paladin of heironeous, fine...don't screw over Corellon, what did he ever do to you?

Well guys, I think we just found out why elves get portrayed as being rather stuffy in many campaign settings.

[Vertharrad]

The same would happen with some of the other pantheons...dwarves come to mind....

[Sam K]

I dunno. A lot of this sounds like "mortal logic." If gods are supposed to be like their worshipers, but something more, than a CG god of awesome being awesome by defying expectations? That seems kind of appropriate to me. A key tenet of elven thought (and CG mindset generally) is the importance of individuality and the value of each person over the society as a whole. Unless we suppose racism is somehow engrained in CG behavior, then I tend to think of Corellon being the elven god because Corellon is the best elf that any elf could be, and then some. And, ideally, CG elves should dislike/fight/kill orcs because they are evil, not because they are orcs. If a given orc proves not to be evil, then any good elf would do well to get over their racial enmity.

And I was making a case for a single orc worshiper, not widespread orc worship. It's unlikely enough in the isolated case.

I'm not really arguing against worshiping. I'm against the cleric idea. Worship is a one way thing (the orc worships Corelleon), but becoming a cleric is a two-way thing. The god invests power in the cleric. He's essentially saying "This guy represents my ideals and I grant him some of my power so he can further my goals."

In this case, it's not enough to merely WANT to serve a god. Being raised by elves and thinking elves are awesome doesn't cut it. You have to embody his ideals. Just idealizing these ideals, no matter how genuine, isn't enough. If so, you would get lots of human clerics of Corellon (because people want to be skinny, gracefull and long-lived (and pouncy!)) A human can be convinced beholders are the true masters of the world, that doesn't mean the great mother will grant him spells though.

I MIGHT allow an orc to convert to being a cleric of Corellon during the course of a campaign, if he really made an effort and the RP was good. But I wouldn't agree to in on a "My background is I was raised by elves" thing. It's nowhere near enough. RP 10 years of trying to earn the trust of the elves who hate you for your race and treat you like less than an animal, and if you STILL want to devote your life and your soul to their creator, we can talk.

[Coidzor]

I'm not really arguing against worshiping. I'm against the cleric idea. Worship is a one way thing (the orc worships Corelleon), but becoming a cleric is a two-way thing. The god invests power in the cleric. He's essentially saying "This guy represents my ideals and I grant him some of my power so he can further my goals."

In this case, it's not enough to merely WANT to serve a god. Being raised by elves and thinking elves are awesome doesn't cut it. You have to embody his ideals. Just idealizing these ideals, no matter how genuine, isn't enough. If so, you would get lots of human clerics of Corellon (because people want to be skinny, gracefull and long-lived (and pouncy!)) A human can be convinced beholders are the true masters of the world, that doesn't mean the great mother will grant him spells though.

I MIGHT allow an orc to convert to being a cleric of Corellon during the course of a campaign, if he really made an effort and the RP was good. But I wouldn't agree to in on a "My background is I was raised by elves" thing. It's nowhere near enough. RP 10 years of trying to earn the trust of the elves who hate you for your race and treat you like less than an animal, and if you STILL want to devote your life and your soul to their creator, we can talk.

Considering most groups don't even last 5 years, it's much more honest to just say no than to set up false requirements like this.

[Zombulian]

Zarus, Races of Destiny. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a)

Zarus: "Hitler Deified"

Edit: I would just like to bring up that I don't even like Elves worshiping Correlon, nevermind Orcs. He's such a jerk.

[123456789blaaa]

Zarus: "Hitler Deified"

Edit: I would just like to bring up that I don't even like Elves worshiping Correlon, nevermind Orcs. He's such a jerk.

He is? :smallconfused:

[Zombulian]

He is? :smallconfused:

He sort of is. If you look at all the lore that's put out there about him, there is almost nothing except for the actual rule tag that should indicate that he is a Good deity.

[Darkranger85]

Please forgive me, I am new to all this, but isn't this a game of roleplay where each and every rule can be changed to fit the circumstances that you want to play?

Granted I have little experience, but it seems to me you could hash out a backstory and figure out a way that this orc was accepted as a cleric, or at least granted to powers that a cleric would be given.

Perhaps in his quest to please his god he ended up saving an entire Elven village or something. In the village there is also a dying Elf, who was mortally wounded by an Orc attack that you helped fend off, and now you pray heal him with all your heart. . .blah blah blah

[Vertharrad]

Zombulian - So a god who had to deal with a scheming wife and a dishonorably evil opponent is a jerk? We have different meanings for jerk it would seem. You see I would say your a jerk for being prejudice to someone standing up for himself.

Darkranger85 - And we should just ignore all those racial hatreds some of which are actually valid to accommodate your "role-playing"? Why not just get rid of all the different races and their deities?So just have the world populated by humans and their deities at least then you wouldn't have to ignore stuff about an established game.


There's nothing we can do to stop you or your dm from doing what you want. But seriously stop doing stuff just to "thumb" your nose at the fluff. Grow up.

The only elf I'd think would raise an orc might be a druid or ranger who doesn't conform to elven norms. But I don't see Correlon risking his power base(considering the opponents arrayed against him) to accept a orc(of all things) as a cleric. This orc would be his undoing when it gets out, not if. Gruumsh would finally be able to soundly defeat the big daddy elf, and his fellow Seldarine might even abandon him to his fate. Lolth would also take advantage. Moradin would either be shaking his head or laughing at him for his foolishness. The dominoes just would not stop falling.

[Zombulian]

Zombulian - So a god who had to deal with a scheming wife and a dishonorably evil opponent is a jerk? We have different meanings for jerk it would seem. You see I would say your a jerk for being prejudice to someone standing up for himself.

Darkranger85 - And we should just ignore all those racial hatreds some of which are actually valid to accommodate your "role-playing"? Why not just get rid of all the different races and their deities?So just have the world populated by humans and their deities at least then you wouldn't have to ignore stuff about an established game.


There's nothing we can do to stop you or your dm from doing what you want. But seriously stop doing stuff just to "thumb" your nose at the fluff. Grow up.

The only elf I'd think would raise an orc might be a druid or ranger who doesn't conform to elven norms. But I don't see Correlon risking his power base(considering the opponents arrayed against him) to accept a orc(of all things) as a cleric. This orc would be his undoing when it gets out, not if. Gruumsh would finally be able to soundly defeat the big daddy elf, and his fellow Seldarine might even abandon him to his fate. Lolth would also take advantage. Moradin would either be shaking his head or laughing at him for his foolishness. The dominoes just would not stop falling.

I'm sensing a little bit too much aggression coming from this post in general.

[Darkranger85]

I'm sensing a little bit too much aggression coming from this post in general.

Yeah, I think someone is just taking things a little too far.

But I suppose it is pretty serious. . . considering that apparently the entire good spectrum of gods will crumble if an orc joined their cause. . .

[Christine Daae]

There is a book called half orc blood that places half orcs in a drow like area when it comes to elves. Orcs happen to be the elves that helped humans in their wars with themselves and so we're transformed into orcs to show their warmonger nature.

Suffice to say anything that detected elves made them show up on radar.

[nedz]

This is one of the few instances where I'd say play a Favoured Soul instead of a Cleric because there are no such restrictions.

You could also play an arcanist and grab the relevant domains by means of Arcane Disciple, PrCing into Divine Oracle or something.

[eastmabl]

A half elf has to have half of something else - why not orc?

[Balyano]

Rules are guidelines. Especially fluff rules. If it were a crunch rule that effected game balance then you might have a problem. On the other hand as a fluff rule you can treat it as an opportunity to have an interesting backstory to explain the oddness of the situation.

Or even just throw it out if you were dming. When I do things I just cut most of them out and treat the important deities as a single pantheon. ''Why of course the elven blacksmith gives up prayers to Moradin, he's the god of smithing after all!"

As for Correllon loosing his power from his followers abandoning him? Who says they abandon him? Maybe they think he is wiser than they are (and since they worship the ground he walks on I would assume they do) and this orc must be special to be granted such power, or is it a sign? Besides I never cared for the ''gods need prayer food'' idea.

If we are actually using Dieties and Demigods then Correllon could lose several divine ranks before Grumsh became a threat. Besides he still has the power funneling into him from all those other material plane worlds, would loosing even half his worship from a single world, or more realistically a single continent really weaken him that much? And considering elf populations are probably low and if prayer really is that important, wouldnt Correllon want fast breading worshippers? Especially since DMs Ive met treating elves like a dying races, long past their glory days, dwindling in numbers, only holding on due to their long life spans.

[Sam K]

Please forgive me, I am new to all this, but isn't this a game of roleplay where each and every rule can be changed to fit the circumstances that you want to play?

Granted I have little experience, but it seems to me you could hash out a backstory and figure out a way that this orc was accepted as a cleric, or at least granted to powers that a cleric would be given.

Perhaps in his quest to please his god he ended up saving an entire Elven village or something. In the village there is also a dying Elf, who was mortally wounded by an Orc attack that you helped fend off, and now you pray heal him with all your heart. . .blah blah blah

Every rule CAN be changed, what we're (hopefully) arguing about is if we think it would be a good idea. Clearly people have some different opinions :)

To me, I draw a line when I feel a background story isn't as much explaining a character, as trying to justify it. I guess I draw the line when a background story requires the world to change to accomodate it. Orc raised by elves, and liking elves? Ok, if you give me a good background I suppose that could work, but you don't get a free pass with elves outside the group that raised you (though if you speak elven and take knowledge (elven culture and history, they might not kill you on the spot). Orc cleric of Correlon? That requires the world to change to accomodate you. Correlon now accepts orcs! And the whole political thing of orcs now being able to become (somewhat) respected members of elven society (ordered by indirect divine intervention)! Sorry, you have to give me more than a story to have that impact on the setting.

If you want big changes, I think you should make them happend in game. If you're dedicated to have orc clerics of Correlon, blackguard celestials or vegetarian mindflayers who use their psionics to help people cope with stressful emotional events, we can talk about including the quest for that in a campaign. I wouldn't let you just dictate it in your background though. If you're not willing to work for it, you clearly aren't that interested to begin with.