why all the hate on Wildshaping Druids?

[Immabozo]

So the wildshape ability gets this horrible rep that I dont understand. I played a druid that was mostly wildshape (1 or 2 rounds of buffing was all I did casting-wise) and I was one of the strongest characters. I played again the same character and I was THE strongest. But not just strong, I was fairly versatile! I had a flight form, was extremely tough in combat, have a form with high spot for scouting, I had a form with free action casting that I was building to (uncertain on legality, cause it doesn't say one way or the other, but end of campaign I wasn't in need of clarifying it), I had a form for many things.

I was theory crafting this guy and found a form that at level 22 (I know, but if someone says epic spell casting, I swear I will punch a baby) I could have a small novel of immunities, huge stats and 23 vorporal attacks per round.

Where does the bad rap come from? Spellcasting is getting all the love!

[anacalgion]

....I don't know where you heard wildshape is bad, but you're right. It's fantastic. Basically everyone I've seen agrees its a good ability. I mean, casting is better, but wildshape is strong. Any hate on it is probably that (in combination with Druid casting) its too strong. You're right - wildshape will let you completely eclipse most melee characters.

[eggynack]

How could wild shape possibly be good? In my experience, only turning into camels and ponies of various kinds, wild shape grants neither maneuverability, nor combat strength. You can't even cast in a wild shape, unless you take some obscure splat book feat. Wild casting, I think? It's just a bad deal all around.

*Can't tell if joke thread. Assuming joke thread.*

[MonochromeTiger]

I've honestly never seen it as weak, it's my favorite part of druids in RPGs along with thousand faces...especially if you throw in more of a focus on it (try looking up the homebrew prestige class formless druid). and to the poster above me, begone vile wildshape hater!

[Silva Stormrage]

Ya where did you read that wildshape was bad? A WEAK version of wildshape makes ranger tier 3. Removing a druid's casting and the druid is STILL a high tier 3 with wildshape + animal companion.

I mean wildshape is weaker than an ubercharger for melee but like still. The druid has a lot of options with it. Its an amazing feature.

[Story]

It's good, just not quite as good as full spellcasting. Otherwise Wildshape Ranger would be tier 1.

[Eldariel]

I don't see where the emotions like "hate" come into this. I have yet to hear anyone use such strong terms for either the Druid or Wildshape in particular. At any rate:
- Wildshape is strong. Everybody knows this. It's the reason why a Druid so effortlessly outfights fighters post-8, and matches them on level 5. It's also versatile. Hell, the class with only Wildshape, Wildshape Ranger, is solidly Tier 3.
- Shapechanging is acknowledged as one of the most broken abilities in 3.5. It's not just Wildshape, though it's probably the worst due to being 1 hour/level out of the box and having its drawback eliminated by Natural Spell: Alter Self is insane for level 2, Polymorph is straightout cheese and Shapechange is in the running for the most broken spell in the game (with the likes of Gate & Wish in the same sentence). Polymorph Any Object is very high up the ladder too.
- Good casting (such as Wizard, Cleric or Druid) is more versatile and powerful than Wildshape. This is why it flabbergasts so many players that WoTC thought it a good idea to give Wildshape to a class that already has tier 1 spellcasting and a superb extra mook for the levels where it counts.


In short: Wildshape is insane. Everyone knows it. It's not quite casting, but it's up there. People who dislike it do so because it's overpowered by comparison to many things and does such a great job of obsoleting non-caster warriors.

People who dislike the Druid likewise do so since it's the most self-optimizing, power class just out of the Core with little work and it's the most blatantly overpowered class being completely able to eclipse warriors in their niche while also being a full caster. Wildshape is a huge part of especially their low level power.

[Psyren]

Wildshape's rep is the opposite actually - it's too powerful, and in 3.5, ends up making even a noodly-armed druid with 8 str/dex put seasoned warriors to shame. So if it is altered at all, it is generally made weaker, if not banned or replaced.

[eggynack]

Are we assuming that this isn't a joke thread? That's weird. In that case, if there's a mistake in the OP, apart from the assertion that people hate wild shape, it's the idea that wild shape and spell casting are somehow enemies. They are not. In truth, the two aspects, along with the animal companion, form a complimentary whole. I mean, just consider using enhance wild shape on a desmodu hunting bat, or using the dire tortoise to cast spells in every surprise round. A third mistake is that I don't think that wild shape forms grant any bonuses to spot checks, by the nature of wild shape.

Anyway, whoever's been telling you that wild shape is considered bad is lying to you. It will always and forever play second fiddle to casting, but it's a great ability, and it makes your casting better. If anyone who knows their optimization decides to rid themselves of wild shape, it's likely either because they want to lower their power level, or because they find looking through infinite splat books for animal stat blocks, and adapting all of those stat blocks to fit your character, tiresome.

[AstralFire]

I'll add a different perspective: Wild Shape is lazy design.

"Lazy design" is an issue with basically all T1 and T5 classes to some degree, but it's especially true for Wild Shape. It's somewhat deceptive because traditional animal forms which are at peace with nature (or junk like that) are pretty friggin' bad, and without Natural Spell, Wild Shape often amounts to a self-nerf for camouflage. But someone who is mechanically inventive and willing to hunt through the MM (it's a core issue, not splat, though splat only exacerbates) can find its many balance issues off the bat.

And those problems all come in the form of stat blocks. When you're using wild shape well, you're flowing between stat blocks. Plural. Very plural. It slows down the flow of the game immensely, all for the sake of an ability which was quicker to write and throwaway.

[eggynack]

By the by, I got the impression that you've found some good gargantuan wild shape forms. I'm pretty interested in those, because they don't come up much, and because megalodon empowerment gives you access to them in non-epic levels. I've yet to find a use for that ability, especially considering the fact that it competes with dire tortoise.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder Wild Shape (and PF shapeshifting in general) solved many of the issues. There's a reason the Giant endorsed it as strongly as he did. I would have liked a few more abilities to be attainable from higher-level versions of the spells though.

[MonochromeTiger]

Pathfinder Wild Shape (and PF shapeshifting in general) solved many of the issues. There's a reason the Giant endorsed it as strongly as he did. I would have liked a few more abilities to be attainable from higher-level versions of the spells though.

pathfinder wildshape is what made me like RPGs.

[Phelix-Mu]

The reason that I hate Wild Shape is that it turns druid from awesome to publisher approved, high-grade, processed cheese. I *love* druid...hell, I AM a druid...but I can't responsibly allow it in any game with less than 1-2 other tier 1s or 2s, because it can easily soak up 3/4 of the necessary party functionality on it's own. There is no other class as good at obsoleting as many other party functions simultaneously as druid at low-to-mid levels of op. Scout, summoner, meatshield, mobility, utility casting, buffing, healing...these are pretty much all hard-coded into the class design.

So, in short, the problem with Wild Shape is that it is too awesome, period. It also, single handedly illustrates how poorly conceived 3.x (and 3.5 in particular) was in the design and testing in terms of balance. Druids rock hard unless the player actually takes time and effort to suck/not use their abilities as intended. Wizards can actually screw up spell selection and run out of relevant spells at early level, and then find themselves up the creek without a paddle. Druids really need to kill themselves if they want a good chance to fail.

[AstralFire]

By the by, I got the impression that you've found some good gargantuan wild shape forms. I'm pretty interested in those, because they don't come up much, and because megalodon empowerment gives you access to them in non-epic levels. I've yet to find a use for that ability, especially considering the fact that it competes with dire tortoise.

Eh? Are you talking to me?

I'm more a homebrewer-and-a-spirit-of-the-rules kinda bird than an optimizer, unless I can come up with something funny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120391).

[eggynack]

Eh? Are you talking to me?

The OP, actually. He said that he found some sort of 22nd level wild shape form, which may imply something gargantuan. Megalodon empowerment is on my list of things that seem like they could theoretically be good, but which I haven't found the use for yet. Were there some sort of good gargantuan form, even one a little beyond 20th level HD limits, it'd be a cool thing.

[AstralFire]

The OP, actually. He said that he found some sort of 22nd level wild shape form, which may imply something gargantuan. Megalodon empowerment is on my list of things that seem like they could theoretically be good, but which I haven't found the use for yet. Were there some sort of good gargantuan form, even one a little beyond 20th level HD limits, it'd be a cool thing.

Gotcha. The 'by the by' was right after my post instead of edited into your previous so I was confused. I'm not very bright sometimes. Pardon. >.<

[Phelix-Mu]

The OP, actually. He said that he found some sort of 22nd level wild shape form, which may imply something gargantuan. Megalodon empowerment is on my list of things that seem like they could theoretically be good, but which I haven't found the use for yet. Were there some sort of good gargantuan form, even one a little beyond 20th level HD limits, it'd be a cool thing.

Actually, and I don't want to make any accusations, but wasn't there a build some time ago that used MoMF to nab a geriviar form and then use Rapidstrike/Imp Rapidstrike and the lot to then stack immunities on that and get teh vorpal strike with the epic feat? Could be totally off-base, but that is the first thing that jumped to mind when I read the OP's comment on the theoretical build.

tl/dr: OP, could you describe for us this 22nd level build you mentioned in the first post? There seems to be some interest.

[eggynack]

Gotcha. The 'by the by' was right after my post instead of edited into your previous so I was confused. I'm not very bright sometimes. Pardon. >.<
It's fine. I mean, it is an open query, ultimately. I'm always looking for random stuff along these lines.

[Psyren]

Phelix-Mu, have you tried the PF version? It keeps the toolbox aspect of Wildshape but requires the Druid to invest in it to be successful. If you want to be sneaky you need good Dex, if you want to be a good frontliner you need good Str, you'll need good Con no matter what, and if you want to be a good caster you'll need Wis. They can be a good primary/secondary of many roles but not nearly as many of them simultaneously as they could in 3.5.

[eggynack]

Actually, and I don't want to make any accusations, but wasn't there a build some time ago that used MoMF to nab a geriviar form and then use Rapidstrike/Imp Rapidstrike and the lot to then stack immunities on that and get teh vorpal strike with the epic feat? Could be totally off-base, but that is the first thing that jumped to mind when I read the OP's comment on the theoretical build.
I haven't seen that one yet. Sounds somewhat interesting, though obviously not within the parameters of my goal. It might also explain the OP's stance, if his claim is that MoMF is somehow equal or superior to a straight druid.

[Eldariel]

Are we assuming that this isn't a joke thread? That's weird.

I don't think it really makes sense as a joke thread. It's not over-the-top or particularly amusing and I don't really see the punchline. That's what lead to my assumption that he's serious.

[Phelix-Mu]

I've also realized that Dragon Wild Shape also would allow a pretty potent Rapidstrike regime by 22nd, but I'm unclear how the available op for dragon selection would influence the immunities situation.

@Psyren: It's really not a problem I've had to face much as a DM. My group only recently discovered the tip of optimization, and none of them is as druid as me (I usually DM). I can (and do) try to tone it down when I play (as a personal challenge as much as a courtesy to the others), but I've accepted a "no-druid's for Phelix" ban (plus, I already conquered that level, so to speak).

But, PF does seem to have some thoughtful tweaks to some of the conspicuous areas of 3.5's imbalance. I will check it out. My x-mas present to myself this year is the core PF book, so we'll see how I find it. Currently, my irl group is playing Exalted (and generally going through a bunch of other rpgs helter skelter)...maybe I can persuade them to try PF next.

[AstralFire]

I think eggynack was being quietly snarky rather than sincere.

[eggynack]

I don't think it really makes sense as a joke thread. It's not over-the-top or particularly amusing and I don't really see the punchline. That's what lead to my assumption that he's serious.
Yeah, it's a logical thought process. I just don't know where the OP's argument is coming from, which is weird for this sort of argument.


I think eggynack was being quietly snarky rather than sincere.
Nah, I was actually wondering at least a little. That's why I played along for a post before reassessing and coming to the conclusion that he was being serious. I'm still not entirely sure that he was being serious, though looking back, I'm not entirely sure where the joke is. I mean, I've seen threads of that sort before. Just not exactly this one.

[nyjastul69]

So the wildshape ability gets this horrible rep that I dont understand. ...

O.o I've played 3.X from stem to stern and never heard such a claim made. Where does such a claim come from? As others have said, Wild Shape is far closer to broken than balanced.

[Pex]

The hate on wildshaping is not a presumption it sucks, which it doesn't, but rather it is very good and druids get spellcasting as well. At character creation druids can ignore strength and dexterity because wildshaping replaces them. Constitution is still needed for hit points. The versatility of forms allows the druid to fight or scout or escape easily as needed. Add in the animal companion who can fight well enough on its own and with druid spell support, the druid is like his own party.

The combination of stuff druids get bothers some people for the sake of having all that stuff. Some hate it the druid has all that power because no one should have all that power. Others hate the druid having all that power while other classes, mainly the warrior classes, don't have equivalent power. The warrior classes can fight. The druid can fight in wildshape, has an animal companion who can fight, and casts spells for offensive power, defensive power, and buffing to help with the fighting, his or his animal.

This hate on druid is not universal, just commonly vocal on these forums. If you enjoy the druid continue to do so. If your playing group has no issues with a druid and fighter in the same party, continue to play. You don't need these forums' approval.

[Incanur]

I mean wildshape is weaker than an ubercharger for melee but like still.

Damage potential gets pretty close with venomfire and the fleshraker allowed. :smallsmile:

[The Trickster]

Perhaps the OP was referring the PH2 shapechanging druid varient? That build is regarded as being weaker then a normal druid, due to its limited forms, inability to cast spells in wildshape form, and the lack of a druid pet.

[eggynack]

Perhaps the OP was referring the PH2 shapechanging druid varient? That build is regarded as being weaker then a normal druid, due to its limited forms, inability to cast spells in wildshape form, and the lack of a druid pet.
That seems unlikely. The OP mentioned that he did theorycrafting that led him to some sort of 22nd level power, and both of those seem impossible with the shapeshift druid, because all aspects of the shapeshift druid are easily comprehended and understood in the former case, and because the progression ends at level 18 in the latter case.

[The Trickster]

That seems unlikely. The OP mentioned that he did theorycrafting that led him to some sort of 22nd level power, and both of those seem impossible with the shapeshift druid, because all aspects of the shapeshift druid are easily comprehended and understood in the former case, and because the progression ends at level 18 in the latter case.

Oh I understand that he uses a "normal" druid in his build. I was saying that he may have saw someone else talk about how the PH2 druid was "bad", and thought they were referring to the normal druid, if that makes any sense.

(For the record, I don't think it's terrible. It is one way to balance the druid out, even if only by a little).

[eggynack]

Oh I understand that he uses a "normal" druid in his build. I was saying that he may have saw someone else talk about the PH2 druid being "bad", and thought they were referring to the normal druid, if that makes any sense.
Ah. Yeah, that's a theoretical possibility. Still seems unlikely, because I would expect such a difference to be pretty clear from context, but perhaps less unlikely.

(For the record, I don't think it's terrible. It is one way to balance the druid out, even if only by a little).
That seems a bit like a distinction without a difference. Shapeshift is clearly much worse at all levels, but it also doesn't impact the druid's tier status at all, because spells are awesome.

[Immabozo]

Are we assuming that this isn't a joke thread? That's weird. In that case, if there's a mistake in the OP, apart from the assertion that people hate wild shape, it's the idea that wild shape and spell casting are somehow enemies. They are not. In truth, the two aspects, along with the animal companion, form a complimentary whole. I mean, just consider using enhance wild shape on a desmodu hunting bat, or using the dire tortoise to cast spells in every surprise round. A third mistake is that I don't think that wild shape forms grant any bonuses to spot checks, by the nature of wild shape.

I see your point on the joke thread bit. Actually, I was in a rush and and didn't phrase it properly. I was reading another thread about splitting the Druid into two classes and someone was saying (actually several times) that wildshape, as a main class feature, was T4, and not T5 because of the animal companion. I thought he was out of his mind, but the sentiment was echoed.

As far as the skills being granted by wildshape, I was a level 7 Master of Many forms, who gets all extraordinary abilities, of which feats and skills and racial skill bonuses, are extraordinary abilities.


By the by, I got the impression that you've found some good gargantuan wild shape forms. I'm pretty interested in those, because they don't come up much, and because megalodon empowerment gives you access to them in non-epic levels. I've yet to find a use for that ability, especially considering the fact that it competes with dire tortoise.

Why yes! although they require levels in Master of Many Forms. (Only 2 or 3, I think, been a while since this character)

My favorite, is the Gerivar from MMIII. 26 HD, 4 arms, an ex based grenade-like attack for 10D6 in a 20' square, can throw two per round, with regen (and mantle of the icy soul makes only acid get around regen) tons of immunities and very high stats. With arms of the Grillon, perfect multi attack and 6 vorporal weapons, that is 24 vorporal attacks per round. At level 22 by using the necklace in MIC I think it was, that give +4 to effective HD for wildshape purposes.

The cheesiest though, I think, for low levels, are dusk giants. Druid 5/MMoF 2 or 3 and you can become a level 22 or 24 super powerful awesome hulk and gain all the level dependent benefits. Like Epic Feats!


Actually, and I don't want to make any accusations, but wasn't there a build some time ago that used MoMF to nab a geriviar form and then use Rapidstrike/Imp Rapidstrike and the lot to then stack immunities on that and get teh vorpal strike with the epic feat? Could be totally off-base, but that is the first thing that jumped to mind when I read the OP's comment on the theoretical build.

I'm flattered, you remembered.


I haven't seen that one yet. Sounds somewhat interesting, though obviously not within the parameters of my goal. It might also explain the OP's stance, if his claim is that MoMF is somehow equal or superior to a straight druid.

equal/superior? no. But I love the MMoF build so much!

And I must apologize for the late response, I was baby sitting for a family friend.

[eggynack]

Well, master of many forms is going to lead to some different results, given that you're optimizing particularly for wild shape at the cost of the far superior ability to cast (reasonably leveled) spells. I do remember that post, though I think it's rather atypical. Most people, including myself, considers wild shape to be a tier three class feature. As for gerivars, they are, as I've mentioned, sadly outside of the parameters of the "Optimizing megalodon empowerment" search, as the spell requires an animal, and because I'm doubtful that 26 HD is a reasonable goal pre-epic. Ah well. I suppose that this, like the search for a way to optimize aspect of the earth hunter's ability to change your type to magical beast, continues. (It has to be something that works on magical beasts, and does not work on animals, or else aspect of the wolf is a highly superior option. I have some decent aspect of the wolf optimization strategies though.)

[jedipotter]

Just wondering......

1. Does any DM put a limit on the animals a druid knows? Remember a druid can only take the shape of an animal it knows. So does any DM come up with a list? Or does every DM just say ''eh if you find any animal in any book you can take it's shape.''

2. Does every DM let magic items work while in animal form? Is there any DM that makes all the magic items the druid has non functional?

[Epsilon Rose]

2. Does every DM let magic items work while in animal form? Is there any DM that makes all the magic items the druid has non functional?

There's an item for that. I'm pretty sure it's called Wilding Clasp. I haven't actually bothered to look it up myself, because I don't play druids, but it gets brought up often enough in this sort of context. If I understand it properly, it's an item that makes other items work while you're wildshaping.

[TuggyNE]

Does any DM put a limit on the animals a druid knows? Remember a druid can only take the shape of an animal it knows. So does any DM come up with a list? Or does every DM just say ''eh if you find any animal in any book you can take it's shape.''

A fair number do. However, given that a) there is a skill in Core for the express purpose of knowing about animals, b) that skill is one any druid can reasonably and probably should have a substantial modifier in, c) the skill has defined guidelines* for DCs to know about given creatures, and d) it is not terribly impractical** for druids to make those checks, the restriction amounts to not much more than busywork in most cases, like requiring Wizards to have at least 12 Int to cast 2nd-level spells.

*The guidelines are terrible, but they are terrible mostly by being unreasonably hard, not by being too easy.
**8 ranks when Wild Shape is first gained, +0 or better Int mod, and +2 synergy from Survival gives a +10 modifier or better; if taking 10 is permitted, as seems not unreasonable out of combat, that means any animal within the limits of Wild Shape can be identified, and even if it's not permitted there's still a good 80% chance or better, with retries allowed every level.

[eggynack]

Don't forget nature sense. That's a reasonably nice ability right there.

[Bronk]

A druid could also get knowledge of an animal by summoning them with 'summon nature's ally' spells.

Eggynack, thanks for the tip of the 'Megalodon Empowerment' spell... a player of mine has been looking for a way to wildshape into a roc for a while now...

[eggynack]

Eggynack, thanks for the tip of the 'Megalodon Empowerment' spell... a player of mine has been looking for a way to wildshape into a roc for a while now...
You are quite welcome. I suppose that things turned out alright in my arbitrary quest if folks found more game based enjoyment on the basis of the spell. I did since find that the spinosaurus dinosaur (MM II, 72) gets frightful presence, which may be unique among abilities that druids natively get access to. I somewhat doubt that I'm going to find something that breaks the game in half, especially when dire tortoises are so fantastic, but there's probably something beyond the six gargantuan animals listed in the monster finder (spinosaurus, dire elephant, megalodon, roc, baleen whale, and cachalot whale, for the curious).

[bekeleven]

The item for +4 HD of wild shaping explicitly breaks in epic levels. Past level 20, the only way to increase wild shape HD is through the beast set in Complete Champ, which provides +1.

[Twilightwyrm]

Anyway, whoever's been telling you that wild shape is considered bad is lying to you. It will always and forever play second fiddle to casting, but it's a great ability, and it makes your casting better. If anyone who knows their optimization decides to rid themselves of wild shape, it's likely either because they want to lower their power level, or because they find looking through infinite splat books for animal stat blocks, and adapting all of those stat blocks to fit your character, tiresome.

I'm not so sure. People say that a spell-less druid would still be Tier 3, and last time I checked, the Warmage and Healer are Tier 4 and Tier 5 respectively. Perhaps it is the addition of the Animal Companion, decent BAB and skills, and slew of special abilities, but then again Healer gets Gate, and Warmage can (albeit with some cross classing) get Wish. So, given all full spell casting still isn't equal, I wouldn't necessarily say Wildshape always plays second fiddle.

[bekeleven]

I'm not so sure. People say that a spell-less druid would still be Tier 3, and last time I checked, the Warmage and Healer are Tier 4 and Tier 5 respectively. Perhaps it is the addition of the Animal Companion, decent BAB and skills, and slew of special abilities, but then again Healer gets Gate, and Warmage can (albeit with some cross classing) get Wish. So, given all full spell casting still isn't equal, I wouldn't necessarily say Wildshape always plays second fiddle.

Right. A warmage can't do anything except damage, placing it on the same tier as an ubercharger barbarian. A healer can't do anything except heal, so it's largely useless in combat.

A wild shaping druid with no spells can do damage (not as much as a barb), tank, scout, party face, and infiltrate, as well as a handful of less conventional tactics. And if one takes feats (frozen wild shape and aberration wild shape come to mind) they can do even more. This is without an animal companion.

[Immabozo]

hey, a wildshaping druid, with a little cheese, can get the ability to GRANT wishes! Unlimited wish SLA? Sign me up for that!

[winter92]

There's been a little discussion of MoMF here, and I think it's worth noting that it's actually an incredibly solid class. It's weak compared to druid casting, but a MoMF ought to be high tier 3 to bottom of tier 2 as I see it (great utility, solid combat, and and Ex. ability you can find). The fact that roughly spell-less druid can still stay in the top half of the tier list is a hint at how fantastic wildshape really is.

And of course, if some fool lets you grab Assume Su. Ability you'll be more powerful than pretty much any druid I've seen, but let's stay away from that circus.

[eggynack]

I'm not so sure. People say that a spell-less druid would still be Tier 3, and last time I checked, the Warmage and Healer are Tier 4 and Tier 5 respectively. Perhaps it is the addition of the Animal Companion, decent BAB and skills, and slew of special abilities, but then again Healer gets Gate, and Warmage can (albeit with some cross classing) get Wish. So, given all full spell casting still isn't equal, I wouldn't necessarily say Wildshape always plays second fiddle.
I was specifically referring to druid casting. On a druid, anything that isn't casting will always play second fiddle to casting, because the druid list is awesome. I started out looking at the list with certain assumptions, like that druid teleportation is universally bad, or that it would be physically impossible to build a straight class druid with a necromancy theme, and I'm almost always proven wrong by continuous search. If the druid had some random spell list, then there's some chance that wild shape would be their best class feature, but they have the druid list, so it isn't.

[Urpriest]

Note that many people disdain Wild Shape at epic or near-epic levels because by then you've got access to Shapechange, which is better than Wild Shape in essentially every way.

[eggynack]

Well, the duration difference is somewhat important at least. There's some sort of marked difference between always acting in the surprise round for a few hours, and always acting in the surprise round forever. Also, it looks like you can assume higher HD forms in wild shape, though I'm not entirely sure if that has any utility. Other than that, yeah, pretty much strictly better.

[Chronos]

Even though spellcasting is more powerful than wildshape, in some ways wildshape is more unbalancing. Put a spellcasting druid in the same party with a fighter, and the fighter can still say "Well, you're good at wagging your fingers at the enemy, and I'm good at hitting them, we both have a role". Put a wildshaping druid in the same party with the fighter, though, and now the fighter is seeing "Well, I'm good at hitting things, but you're better at it, so what am I supposed to be doing here, anyway?".

[bekeleven]

Even though spellcasting is more powerful than wildshape, in some ways wildshape is more unbalancing. Put a spellcasting druid in the same party with a fighter, and the fighter can still say "Well, you're good at wagging your fingers at the enemy, and I'm good at hitting them, we both have a role". Put a wildshaping druid in the same party with the fighter, though, and now the fighter is seeing "Well, I'm good at hitting things, but you're better at it, so what am I supposed to be doing here, anyway?".

Be better at ranged combat and charging damage?

The most solid use of charging feats as a druid (for instance... 5 natural attacks + pounce + power attack leap attack) grants a 10:1 Damage:PA Ratio. A fighter can still PA for higher (PA, Leap Attack, 2 THF, Valorous = 16:1).

If the druid classes into MoMF, however, it can probably do ranged and charging equal or better than the fighter.

[eggynack]

Druid blasting is pretty decent, actually. The real star of the show is boreal wind, but there are reasonable blasting options at every level. They also have things that obviate the need for ranged stuff to some extent. If the main goal is being able to hit your opponents while they are unable to hit you, the animal companion and summons accomplish that goal, and druids are on the amazing side when it comes to stopping ranged damage, so the druid can hit their opponent, and the opponent will be pretty incapable of attacking them. As for damage, do you take the animal companion into account in that evaluation? They count for a lot. Also, venomfire if you're feeling cheesy.

[bekeleven]

Druid blasting is pretty decent, actually. The real star of the show is boreal wind, but there are reasonable blasting options at every level. They also have things that obviate the need for ranged stuff to some extent. If the main goal is being able to hit your opponents while they are unable to hit you, the animal companion and summons accomplish that to some extent, and druids are on the amazing side when it comes to stopping ranged damage, so they can hit their opponent, and the opponent will be pretty incapable of attacking them. As for damage, do you take the animal companion into account in that evaluation? They count for a lot. Also, venomfire if you're feeling cheesy.I was explicitly comparing a fighter to wild shape.

[eggynack]

I was explicitly comparing a fighter to wild shape.
Ah, right. Fair enough. I can't think of much in the way of solid ranged options for a druid 20 with just wild shape. Still, I think that people tend to underestimate the druid blasting list a little. Not a lot, because blasting is still blasting, and because druid blasting is likely inferior to wizard options, but at least a little

[bekeleven]

Ah, right. Fair enough. I can't think of much in the way of solid ranged options for a druid 20 with just wild shape.Not so much. Now, a Druid 10/MoMF 10 with Wild shape, I have lists.

I'm a 7th level shifter in a game I'm playing weekly. I just picked up elemental form for Thoqqua, so I've been sniping using the Magma Hurler from MH. Unfortunately, its 3D8+8+1D6 Fire damage would be unimpressive by the time a MoMF could get it (level 14).

[TuggyNE]

The most solid use of charging feats as a druid (for instance... 5 natural attacks + pounce + power attack leap attack) grants a 10:1 Damage:PA Ratio. A fighter can still PA for higher (PA, Leap Attack, 2 THF, Valorous = 16:1).

At the point you're doing 10:1 or better, higher returns don't matter all that much, because you're just instagibbing things anyway.

[bekeleven]

At the point you're doing 10:1 or better, higher returns don't matter all that much, because you're just instagibbing things anyway.

Keep in mind that druids are at 3/4 BAB, so 10*.75 is half of 16*1. There are situations when that could matter (especially if you miss with a rake or two).

[Chronos]

And the druid is probably going to be better than the fighter at non-charging melee. And better at charging, too, if it's low-op or low-sources, since a druid in big cat form gets Pounce (and Rake and Improved Grab) for free, without having to spend feats on it.

[bekeleven]

And the druid is probably going to be better than the fighter at non-charging melee. And better at charging, too, if it's low-op or low-sources, since a druid in big cat form gets Pounce (and Rake and Improved Grab) for free, without having to spend feats on it.

Oh, for sure. The fighter has its niche, but we are comparing across a 2-tier gap.

[Psyren]

Note that many people disdain Wild Shape at epic or near-epic levels because by then you've got access to Shapechange, which is better than Wild Shape in essentially every way.

One key difference is that Shapechange can be dispelled/disjoined - that matters quite a bit at high-level play.

[bekeleven]

One key difference is that Shapechange can be dispelled/disjoined - that matters quite a bit at high-level play.Wild shape is suppressed in an AMF just the same.

Also, correctly built, Wild Shape can slightly close the gap with shapechange in epic levels.

[Psyren]

Wild shape is suppressed in an AMF just the same.

Er, I didn't say anything about AMF...



Also, correctly built, Wild Shape can slightly close the gap with shapechange in epic levels.

I was arguing for Wild Shape, not against.

[Metahuman1]

Wildshape makes the traditional roles of classes like the barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger and rogue and makes it the druids job cause he's better at it. On top of being able to keep up with the casters in the magic department.

It's OP, more so with Natural Spell. That's the problem.

[eggynack]

The druid's not all that bad at invalidating fighters without wild shape either. Between the animal companion, summons, and whatever random and crazy magic you're in the mood to lay down, normal shape druids possess a pretty potent fighting guy arsenal. Honestly, while druids can definitely go toe to toe with enemies at a certain point, I'm not really convinced that it's the best option in most cases. You'd generally be better off flying high above the battlefield, shooting spells, and not risking your neck as much.

[Urpriest]

One key difference is that Shapechange can be dispelled/disjoined - that matters quite a bit at high-level play.

Sure. At those levels there are ways around that, though. A high level Druid stripped of their normal buff routine is going to be sub-par at melee even if Wildshape is still active, so both need to worry about defending from dispels.

[Phelix-Mu]

If a wildshaped druid casts shapechange, changes to some other form, and then gets dispelled, do they return to the wildshape form or to their natural form? I vaguely remember something about stacking transmutation effects and whatnot, but my database is no where big enough to let me guess off the top of my head.

[MonochromeTiger]

If a wildshaped druid casts shapechange, changes to some other form, and then gets dispelled, do they return to the wildshape form or to their natural form? I vaguely remember something about stacking transmutation effects and whatnot, but my database is no where big enough to let me guess off the top of my head.

polymorph effects cancel each other out (albeit I've heard from a few places that wild shape ignores this but I'm not certain whether that's a house rule that just stuck with my groups or an actual thing) so arguably stacking wouldn't really work as one or the other would have to end.

[eggynack]

Wild shape isn't a polymorph effect. It's an alternate form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) effect.

[MonochromeTiger]

Wild shape isn't a polymorph effect. It's an alternate form effect.

ok that clears up my confusion, thanks eggynack.

[eggynack]

Not a problem, though it does take us back to the initial query that Phelix-Mu presented. I would assume that you'd just turn back into whatever you last wild shape'd into, but I don't know for certain.

[Phelix-Mu]

Not a problem, though it does take us back to the initial query that Phelix-Mu presented. I would assume that you'd just turn back into whatever you last wild shape'd into, but I don't know for certain.

Hmm, yeah, I do wonder about this, because I can see potential strangeness down this road. I have a good nose for areas of the rules that are sufficiently vague to probably allow some weirdness, and I'm starting to get that sense here.

[MonochromeTiger]

Not a problem, though it does take us back to the initial query that Phelix-Mu presented. I would assume that you'd just turn back into whatever you last wild shape'd into, but I don't know for certain.

well I think it kind of depends, do you count the time in the shapechange form against your wild shape duration (assuming you haven't got to the 'at will' or over 24 hour duration in your setting of choice yet)? if so then wild shape will still be in effect just not in clear use. if you don't count the time against duration then wild shape isn't in use and wouldn't be returned to. albeit then there's the other question of the thousand faces descriptions I've read (which require you to be in your natural form to use it) and the fact that some homebrew prestige classes like the formless druid one I like go out of their way to say "you can wild shape without needing to change back with this feature"... I think it may be a DM interpretation issue as to whether it would really work or not.

[bekeleven]

Another fun trick is that you only have to qualify for a form when you shape into it. So for instance, a master of many forms can turn into a human, spend the bonus feat on Frozen Wild Shape, then turn into a hydra.