What's your opinion of this?

[Ragnorrok]

I'm "soon" going to be DMing for a group of 3 starting at level 4 so they get 5000 gp. One person in the group is "Helping" the other two by essentially making their characters for them. They don't have any books despite me telling them to get it (it's an online tabletop). So basically how it goes is this first player is telling the other two what the best races/classes are instead of letting them look then essentially go through a secluded list of items for them to buy that they think are helpful without showing the other person the list and essentially telling them "Yeah, you'll totally need these/this *item* it's pretty awesome." So they go ahead and buy it without knowing what it is or what it does and so now they basically spent all their money on stuff they likely will never use or even remember they have. Personally this feels wrong to me and they should be picking their own items from a list they can see for themselves without someone whispering down their ear which items they should take. I, unfortunately see no excuse to tell them it's wrong as they should normally work together and stuff. Just think they should make their own decisions, especially starting off.

Also he throwing these feats they should take at them as well. He seemed upset that I wouldn't let the gray elf in a custom campaign setting not take a feat that required he be an elf from a specific part of Faerun.

[Benthesquid]

Eh, I'd say make sure that the other two players have access to the books, and make it clear to them that they they can build their own characters, and then leave it up to them. Character generation isn't the main drawing point for a lot of people.

[Ragnorrok]

I understand it's not the main drawing point but unfortunately they're being pushed into a situation where they can't think for themselves. We did a practice round with just two of them and one of them is a ninja with a goliath greathammer (since I let them basically pick what they want to start off but have to go find anything not in PHB afterwards). and he doesn't even know how to play or what his own weapons do.

[holywhippet]

If he's helping them make good characters then I'd allow it. A bad start to D&D would be to have a suboptimal character that isn't really good at anything - especially combat. As the new players get used to the system they should start learning on their own.

[danzibr]

I have *exactly* this situation. I play via Skype with my parents, my brother and his wife. My wife played a couple sessions and dropped out.

My parents gave a character idea, and my brother and his wife... let's say... guided my parents through the character creation process. Fourth time in a row this has happened, I think (four different campaigns).

I gave my parents an ordered list of things to do to make a character, even linking handbooks and stuff, and to be honest, they just don't care. They don't want to spend the time looking at feats and gear and picking what they want. They play the game just to hang out. It sort of bothers me, but as long as everyone has a good time, I'm down with it.

EDIT:

If he's helping them make good characters then I'd allow it. A bad start to D&D would be to have a suboptimal character that isn't really good at anything - especially combat. As the new players get used to the system they should start learning on their own.
This... I can't agree with it. It's part of the learning experience. Let them retrain feats and skill as they level, let them buy new stuff. If they hate their character, kill them and let them play a new one. But let them make their own character, no matter how crappy.

[Ragnorrok]

They aren't making good characters, that's the thing. Most of what they buy are alchemical items and random magical non combat items. The ninja as I've stated before has complete crap items despite having relatively good stats. Another problem is that they don't know what they do. They have classes with abilities and these feats that do things but since they weren't the ones who went and looked at them and picked them out they have no idea what they do. I have to walk one of them through the entire combat process every single round and have to look up his class for him and tell him what he can do. Personally I feel like I should just tell them "If you don't know how it works, neither does your character."

[danzibr]

They aren't making good characters, that's the thing. Most of what they buy are alchemical items and random magical non combat items. The ninja as I've stated before has complete crap items despite having relatively good stats. Another problem is that they don't know what they do. They have classes with abilities and these feats that do things but since they weren't the ones who went and looked at them and picked them out they have no idea what they do. I have to walk one of them through the entire combat process every single round and have to look up his class for him and tell him what he can do. Personally I feel like I should just tell them "If you don't know how it works, neither does your character."
Yup, sounds like they aren't taking D&D seriously. Unlike Monopoly or something, D&D requires some learning. Have they read the PHB? Not all of it, but the important bits.

I lent my parents both of my copies of the PHB, telling them what sections to read, and... they never did it. I lent them CW since they wanted to build fighty dudes, never read it. Kinda lost heart after that.

[Ragnorrok]

Nope. They don't want to touch the PHB like it's tainted or something. Seriously though, just recently got through like a half of an encounter before someone had to go to bed >_> they are fighting an incorporeal creature that can't even hurt them and none of them know what to do. One of them got really butthurt when the non-lethal creature tried to attack him first, like he seriously believed himself to never be attacked, then he got really upset and acted like he didn't want to play. Thing didn't even touch him. Not just that, but they had no idea what to do against it since they can't hurt it without magic or something to hit undead. Then the binder wants to start binding and needs a liquid medium for the vestige he wants. Ninja blurts out "I have some holy water if you can use that!"... seriously?... you have nothing to hurt this creature... with holy water in your hands?
I do not have a lot of faith in this group.

[MonochromeTiger]

Nope. They don't want to touch the PHB like it's tainted or something. Seriously though, just recently got through like a half of an encounter before someone had to go to bed >_> they are fighting an incorporeal creature that can't even hurt them and none of them know what to do. One of them got really butthurt when the non-lethal creature tried to attack him first, like he seriously believed himself to never be attacked, then he got really upset and acted like he didn't want to play. Thing didn't even touch him. Not just that, but they had no idea what to do against it since they can't hurt it without magic or something to hit undead. Then the binder wants to start binding and needs a liquid medium for the vestige he wants. Ninja blurts out "I have some holy water if you can use that!"... seriously?... you have nothing to hurt this creature... with holy water in your hands?
I do not have a lot of faith in this group.

um...ok to be honest if they won't put in even the slight effort to know what simple items do are you sure you really want to deal with a full campaign of it? there are simple resources to learn about RPG games regardless of setting and rules, if they refuse to use them they have no one but themselves to blame if there's a TPK or they have to be led by the hand from either you or the person who was making their characters for them.

[Ragnorrok]

I don't even know if I want to go through the campaign anymore with them. They're my friends but they seriously make the game no fun. I just want to throw a giant T-rex at them, have it eat them then have them roll new characters with just the player's handbooks so badly -_-

[Sir Chuckles]

Beyond all else, just like math homework back in the Elementary, make sure that it's help, not "doing it for them".

I have one player I pretty much always write his sheets for him, but at the same time he has complete creative control. I'm just the guy who says "That feat makes you shoot fire, that one makes you shoot but in a cone", and then he chooses which one he wants.

I do his leveling for him as well, but I always, always, ask him what is character goal is.

I'd say the big issue I'd have with what's going on is that the player "helping" is picking and choosing feats and items essentially for the other players. That's baaad.

But looking at your following posts, it's less a problem of of that one player helping, more, and I almost never say something this blunt, the sheer ineptitude of your players.
You need to sit down with them and do some heavy-duty DM janitorial and chalkboard work.
Are they absolutely new players or have they played before?

[Sir Chuckles]

I don't even know if I want to go through the campaign anymore with them. They're my friends but they seriously make the game no fun. I just want to throw a giant T-rex at them, have it eat them then have them roll new characters with just the player's handbooks so badly -_-

Sorry for the double post, but you're half right here.

It is a BAD idea to kill them like that. It'll only antagonize them and might make them quit DnD altogether.

Veto, don't kill, their characters, and then tell them to start from scratch (Or, say, let them keep their stat rolls) with ONLY the Player's Handbook. Simplicity, especially for new players, is key.

[Ragnorrok]

they don't even know their stats practically. It takes one of them 5 minutes to find his will save and has no idea what skills do cause they only have a word document made by the one player given to them and it only holds the skills they "wanted" (the ones they thought they would only use cause he was too lazy to write them all down).

[erikun]

Why are you playing with this group?
Why are you playing D&D with this group?
Why are you playing D&D, and starting them out at level 4 with all splatbooks available, with this group?

Seriously, it sounds like two of the people there aren't interested in RPing at all. You'd probably be better visiting a hobby shop and getting some fun board games to play, if that's the case. If you're still interested in RPing with this group, then I'd recommend a simplier system or (at least) starting them off at 1st level, PHB only.

And walk them through character creation yourself. It seems a big problem is that they have no clue what's going on - they just had another person throw papers and numbers at them for a "character".

[MonochromeTiger]

Why are you playing with this group?
Why are you playing D&D with this group?
Why are you playing D&D, and starting them out at level 4 with all splatbooks available, with this group?

Seriously, it sounds like two of the people there aren't interested in RPing at all. You'd probably be better visiting a hobby shop and getting some fun board games to play, if that's the case. If you're still interested in RPing with this group, then I'd recommend a simplier system or (at least) starting them off at 1st level, PHB only.

And walk them through character creation yourself. It seems a big problem is that they have no clue what's going on - they just had another person throw papers and numbers at them for a "character".

if I may I'd recommend using one of the websites that hosts character sheets so you can be sure they're getting all their info into an easy to read format if you do go back and have them remake characters. it would also let you make sure they aren't pulling numbers out of nowhere or looking at something they don't even have yet.

[Grollub]

seriously?? just kick them out of the group, cancel the group.. or start a new group. If they aren't interested in putting in any effort , don't bother wasting your time.

[danzibr]

Why are you playing with this group?
Why are you playing D&D with this group?
Why are you playing D&D, and starting them out at level 4 with all splatbooks available, with this group?

Seriously, it sounds like two of the people there aren't interested in RPing at all. You'd probably be better visiting a hobby shop and getting some fun board games to play, if that's the case. If you're still interested in RPing with this group, then I'd recommend a simplier system or (at least) starting them off at 1st level, PHB only.

And walk them through character creation yourself. It seems a big problem is that they have no clue what's going on - they just had another person throw papers and numbers at them for a "character".
I think D&D isn't the game for them (or, again, start suuuuper basic, as in the level 1 PHB only).

[ArmoredSandwich]

Nope. They don't want to touch the PHB like it's tainted or something. Seriously though, just recently got through like a half of an encounter before someone had to go to bed >_> they are fighting an incorporeal creature that can't even hurt them and none of them know what to do. One of them got really butthurt when the non-lethal creature tried to attack him first, like he seriously believed himself to never be attacked, then he got really upset and acted like he didn't want to play. Thing didn't even touch him. Not just that, but they had no idea what to do against it since they can't hurt it without magic or something to hit undead. Then the binder wants to start binding and needs a liquid medium for the vestige he wants. Ninja blurts out "I have some holy water if you can use that!"... seriously?... you have nothing to hurt this creature... with holy water in your hands?
I do not have a lot of faith in this group.

Can't you try to find out what they do like and do that? You can help them a lot by creating characters but if they do not want to actually play any aspect of the game at all will always be a waste of time.

Maybe create a couple of straight forward fighter characters for them and put them against stuff they can just hit and kill. A simple list of r/f/w, TOTAL attack bonus and damage should be sufficient. If they like that go from there.

If they do not like that, try some role playing?

Again, if they do not like anything just stop wasting your time.

[AstralFire]

Try Spirit of the Century, maybe. TBH, D&D is awfully boring and intimidating to try to get into for many of the uninitiated. They're clearly not interested at this point.

[lytokk]

At one point my friends who aren't into D&D played a game of heroquest with me. Always thought of that as D&D lite.

[Ragnorrok]

I'm playing with them cause they're my friends and they wanted to try D&D but have no idea what they're doing. Also it isn't that I'm not doing what they have fun doing, it's that they have no idea what they are capable of doing and assume that I will just go through their inventory and tell them what items are applicable to the current situation.

[Callin]

Tell em right off the bat that they need to make their own characters, YOU will guide and help them individually for things like leveling up and mechanical questions but THEY over all will be making the choices. If they make a bad character so what? Dont throw optimized encounters against em. Let their first character be a learning experience.

Starting them out at lvl 4 is a bad idea though. Lvl 1 and from the PHB would be best. Teach them about how everything interacts on the character sheet. They need to read the combat section. Its a must.

I had to do all of this just 2 weeks ago for 3 brand new DnDers. One of which was really struggling to grasp basic mechanics and he wanted to be a caster. His first character died, brutally and with no remorse. Hopefully the lesson he learned will stick with him lol. Death is not the end of the game. Let em know that. There is always retraining as well. Dont forget that. If something isnt working out the way the player wanted or thought it would work let em retrain. Maybe for free a few times from a "Sponsor" and then they gotta pay for any after that.

And for the love of all that is holy make them use a proper character sheet :smallsmile:

[HaikenEdge]

This seems like a situation where the people involved don't want to put in the effort to learn the system, while being able to say, "I tried D&D." It'd be akin to if you and they were playing Monopoly, and you had to talk them through every part of the game, from buying and selling property, to how the Community Chest and Chance cards worked.

If they don't want to put in the effort to learn something they said they wanted to try, talk to them about why they need to put in the effort to learn the system; compare it to Monopoly or a video game, if you have to. If, after that, they still won't make an effort to put in the work, then you might just end up being in a situation with people who say they want to try D&D, but really only want to be able to say they did, as opposed to people who genuinely want to try D&D because they have a genuine interest in it.

[AMFV]

I personally see absolutely no problem with this. I've played D&D with beginners and find that it's easier to help people create characters. There are many many people for whom character creation is not the core of the game and they shouldn't be unable to enjoy the game because of this.

Frankly, I see it is a no different than asking for a build on a char-op site and copying it verbatim, and I've done that (despite the fact that I love creating characters). The advantage is that it will help them to be effective and therefore fun throughout the entirety of their first few games and if you explain their abilities well they will start to develop system mastery without the frustrating crappy parts.

I can still remember my first D&D game where I played as a crappy monk, then as a crappy sorcerer, then finally as a cleric that was accidentally good at diplomacy. None of these were particularly fun experiences for me, outside of the actual playing. Nowadays, character building is probably my favorite exercise, but when I had o knowledge... it was daunting and frustrating. I see no reason to force people to do something the hard way to "teach them", I've seen too much of that in the military, and it is always idiotic. The best way in my experience to help somebody with a complex system is to walk them through the process step by step, with you probably doing most or all of the work the first time, then less as you go on, this will help them see the optimal routes.

Lastly, not everybody has the time to read dozens and dozens of books. Or spend hours on character creation. I'm currently a student, when I create a wizard I spend an average of 8 or so hours on the spell book along, and up to 20 hours on researching the optimal build, it is not reasonable to expect other people to spend this kind of time and effort, and it is not fair for them to have to play suboptimal characters because they have other life priorities. So I guess the takeaway is that there is really no problem with this sort of thing.


Tell em right off the bat that they need to make their own characters, YOU will guide and help them individually for things like leveling up and mechanical questions but THEY over all will be making the choices. If they make a bad character so what? Dont throw optimized encounters against em. Let their first character be a learning experience.

Starting them out at lvl 4 is a bad idea though. Lvl 1 and from the PHB would be best. Teach them about how everything interacts on the character sheet. They need to read the combat section. Its a must.

I had to do all of this just 2 weeks ago for 3 brand new DnDers. One of which was really struggling to grasp basic mechanics and he wanted to be a caster. His first character died, brutally and with no remorse. Hopefully the lesson he learned will stick with him lol. Death is not the end of the game. Let em know that. There is always retraining as well. Dont forget that. If something isnt working out the way the player wanted or thought it would work let em retrain. Maybe for free a few times from a "Sponsor" and then they gotta pay for any after that.

And for the love of all that is holy make them use a proper character sheet :smallsmile:

I will NEVER EVER start players at level 1 for exactly that reason, because I bet the guy who was struggling with concepts was very frustrated that his character died "brutally". This is about fun, this isn't school, you aren't their boss or their instructor, you're their friend.

The other point is that the time commitment required to create a character is equal to money. So killing characters is like forcing people to play poker for money the first time, then inadequately explaining the rules and taking their money away. In my example that is 28 hours of analytical work at fifteen an hour (very low for computational and analytical work), that puts the theoretical value of my character at $420, just based on the value of my time alone. This is the same reason that I find stealing spellboooks to be bull****, if I spend eight hours on something then by god, I don't want it to vanish, I'm not in Vegas, I'm playing poker with friend in this analogy.

[Callin]

He didnt mind it. It was his actions that lead to it. Yes I knocked his character down a few times into the negatives from lucky rolls but it we are all adults and can accept character death.

The reason I say start at lvl 1 is because you gotta start at the bottom. Start where its easiest at to explain all that a character can do and then let them grow into their abilities and flesh out their concept.

You can pitch em slowballs and underhand tosses till they level up but dont let their actions go unpunished. The character in my group tried to steal 1000 gold from the Ghost of a Barbarian King. Told to take 100 and tried to take more. Ripped his soul right out of his body. The other two guys loved it and really made the game for them.

Edit: You get paid to have fun? I always hate that anology, I find it to be utter bull. Back on Topic- I helped each one make the character. I was there very step of the way giving input when they asked for it. So I had as much time invested in his character as he did.

[AMFV]

He didnt mind it. It was his actions that lead to it. Yes I knocked his character down a few times into the negatives from lucky rolls but it we are all adults and can accept character death.

The reason I say start at lvl 1 is because you gotta start at the bottom. Start where its easiest at to explain all that a character can do and then let them grow into their abilities and flesh out their concept.

You can pitch em slowballs and underhand tosses till they level up but dont let their actions go unpunished. The character in my group tried to steal 1000 gold from the Ghost of a Barbarian King. Told to take 100 and tried to take more. Ripped his soul right out of his body. The other two guys loved it and really made the game for them.

Well the problem I'd have with this, is that firstly he didn't die from poor character creation or system mastery. He died from what I would call gygaxian ridiculousness. I am not really one to critique other people's play styles but because other people enjoy something negative happening to somebody is not a reason to make it okay, that would be the logic behind bullying.

Frankly, I would walk away from any game that had no-save you die rules. That minute, because that's not what 3.5 is designed for, and again if I've spent literally hours of time on my character that is tantamount to money, and I don't play poker with friends for money, so I won't play D&D with friends where my time could just wind up being invalidated. Although I personally don't mind some lethality but if I've spent hours as a novice and my choices are crap, then it's much much worse.

Furthermore... There is no reason to "start at the bottom" that's bunk, a level four characters is only marginally more complex than a level one character, ad much less likely to die. It's not like math where you can't do one without the other, this is forcing people to play through a part many find unenjoyable because others have had to suffer through that, like I said I've seen way too much of that particular load of crap in the military, and I hated it there.

[Callin]

Well the problem I'd have with this, is that firstly he didn't die from poor character creation or system mastery. He died from what I would call gygaxian ridiculousness. I am not really one to critique other people's play styles but because other people enjoy something negative happening to somebody is not a reason to make it okay, that would be the logic behind bullying.

Frankly, I would walk away from any game that had no-save you die rules. That minute, because that's not what 3.5 is designed for, and again if I've spent literally hours of time on my character that is tantamount to money, and I don't play poker with friends for money, so I won't play D&D with friends where my time could just wind up being invalidated. Although I personally don't mind some lethality but if I've spent hours as a novice and my choices are crap, then it's much much worse.

Furthermore... There is no reason to "start at the bottom" that's bunk, a level four characters is only marginally more complex than a level one character, ad much less likely to die. It's not like math where you can't do one without the other, this is forcing people to play through a part many find unenjoyable because others have had to suffer through that, like I said I've seen way too much of that particular load of crap in the military, and I hated it there.

nah you misunderstand. They didnt like the fact he died, but in HOW he died. The roleplay and consequences of his actions. Im not one to kill off a character lightly. I hate doing it and dont draw enjoyment from it.

Edit: You should always start from the start. Thats why its called the start.

You want to talk about invalidated time i got a story for ya lol.

I spent a week making a character for myself and helping my Bro so he could join in my regular DnD group. We get to the game and since me and my friend died we were all starting at the edge of the forest with my Bro and the rest of the group was spread out over a mile or so. Druid in bird form with calvary charged the group down and then finally got to us. My friend stripped naked and charged, I died, and my bro ran off to live. All dead but my Brother. 6 hours of gameplay for us to sit back and not do **** until the LAST round where the deaths happened. That is time I wish I had back. My bro didnt play for a few years after that. Now he is in the group and loving it, but we still talk about that first time every now and then. With only a little bit of venom.

[AMFV]

nah you misunderstand. They didnt like the fact he died, but in HOW he died. The roleplay and consequences of his actions. Im not one to kill off a character lightly. I hate doing it and dont draw enjoyment from it.

Edit: You should always start from the start. Thats why its called the start.

You want to talk about invalidated time i got a story for ya lol.

I spent a week making a character for myself and helping my Bro so he could join in my regular DnD group. We get to the game and since me and my friend died we were all starting at the edge of the forest with my Bro and the rest of the group was spread out over a mile or so. Druid in bird form with calvary charged the group down and then finally got to us. My friend stripped naked and charged, I died, and my bro ran off to live. All dead but my Brother. 6 hours of gameplay for us to sit back and not do **** until the LAST round where the deaths happened. That is time I wish I had back. My bro didnt play for a few years after that. Now he is in the group and loving it, but we still talk about that first time every now and then. With only a little bit of venom.

I don't think that level 1 is the start in any real sense, it's not officially called that, my personal favorite starting point is level 6, because at that point you get the transition between low and mid level play. You start having more defensive items and death is less frequent, and I don't like character death much.

I don't think death as a result of what I would consider to be a predictable result of that scenario is really fair to the player, particularly a new one. I would probably do something where I've bound his soul the barbarian king, giving him more opportunity to roleplay later and giving him a character hook. That sort of thing is generally [in my experience] much more productive than killing characters.

You have to remember you are teaching them, but you're not their boss, and them screwing up and doing stupid things is likely on you and not on them, particularly when they're just starting out.

[Callin]

Honestly he was already talking about wanting a new character anyways but yes I do agree with you that something else could have been better but I chose to show them just how lethal it can be to mess with something beyond your scope, and give the player a cool death and character do over. They honestly could not wait to play again so I had to run the next night.

But as always your mileage may vary and I know 2 of these guys really well. So I know what I can and can not do.


AMFV: You have to remember you are teaching them, but you're not their boss, and them screwing up and doing stupid things is likely on you and not on them, particularly when they're just starting out.

I really dont get this. You say boss, but im not following. Them screwing up is all on them. Trust me on this one :smallwink:

Edit: I really should get all my thoughts out lol. Ok so your favorite starting point is lvl 6. That is your opinion and mine is lvl 1. The OP asked what we think and we have both stated our reasons for such. Neither is wrong.

[MonochromeTiger]

I'm playing with them cause they're my friends and they wanted to try D&D but have no idea what they're doing. Also it isn't that I'm not doing what they have fun doing, it's that they have no idea what they are capable of doing and assume that I will just go through their inventory and tell them what items are applicable to the current situation.

just as a thought, if they're still interested and you still want to initiate them into the world of pen and paper RPG, dungeon world has loose enough rules and a "story first" feel to it that could be less overwhelming to players who don't do their homework ahead of time.

[AMFV]

just as a thought, if they're still interested and you still want to initiate them into the world of pen and paper RPG, dungeon world has loose enough rules and a "story first" feel to it that could be less overwhelming to players who don't do their homework ahead of time.

This actually highlights what I think is the problem here. At least from my viewpoint, this is a game, there shouldn't be "homework", for me I enjoy that aspect I would never call spending hours building a character a chore, but some people do, and some of those people love D&D and enjoy it as much as I, there's no reason not to try to help them with the parts they don't enjoy to get everybody to enjoy all the aspects.

Sorry if I piggybacked on your post to make a tangential point. As for switching systems, I can see why people might not want to do that, several members could be like me and could enjoy the character building aspect, so much so in fact that they could help others with it, all I see here is a net gain in fun for all, I don't see how that would be negative.


Honestly he was already talking about wanting a new character anyways but yes I do agree with you that something else could have been better but I chose to show them just how lethal it can be to mess with something beyond your scope, and give the player a cool death and character do over. They honestly could not wait to play again so I had to run the next night.

But as always your mileage may vary and I know 2 of these guys really well. So I know what I can and can not do.



I really dont get this. You say boss, but im not following. Them screwing up is all on them. Trust me on this one :smallwink:

Edit: I really should get all my thoughts out lol. Ok so your favorite starting point is lvl 6. That is your opinion and mine is lvl 1. The OP asked what we think and we have both stated our reasons for such. Neither is wrong.

The reason I was saying that is that if somebody doesn't understand the consequences of their actions in a system you are teaching them, that would be your fault as the instructor, not theirs. It's not exactly always intuitive. For example, if we consider your example, there are many stories where characters have stolen vast wealth or violated the rules of those type of things and gotten away with it (Aladin for example), so the player might not have understood it.

However if he did want his character dead though, I don't see any problem with what you did. I normally let people reroll any time they don't find a character fun, which actually has less rerolls than you might expect. So far I have had one.

[TheDarkSaint]

I teach an after school Sci-Fi club and we do role playing. For kids getting into D&D, usually middle school students, I do the following.


I create:

1 Barbarian

1 Monk

1 Duskblade with pre-selected spells

1 Favored Soul of Pelor with as many healing spells as possible.


Viola. I have characters out of the box with easy to understand powers, feats and few skills. The less options, the better. 3.5 can be VERY intimidating for new people with so many options.

Take that part out and the game can be fun. All of those classes are pretty linear and have powers already selected for them as they level. Duskblade and Favored Soul end up selecting a few spells but are locked into spells, which makes things easier for new folks.

Yes, the classes can suck some times, but you are teaching and they aren't optimizers, so it really won't matter.