On the Viability of Dragonfire Adepts (damage-wise)

[Pinkcrusade]

Hello, everybody!

So, I was creating Dragonfire Adept, and I love the concept for the class, very neat; though, I was wondering (strictly for damage), how viable this class is relative to others. At level five, it's damage is 2d6 per character, and that really isn't that fantastic, unfortunately... is there something I am missing that increases the damage of this awesome class, or will it remain a class like the Samurai that is awesome looking, but doesn't taste that great?

Thanks.

[Deophaun]

There are some items in MIC that can give you another damage die or 2, and Knowledge Devotion can add a couple points of damage. But in general, DFAs are battlefield controllers, which is most builds are willing to nerf their damage with things like Entangling Exhalation.

You won't be capable of high damage until/unless you pick up the Five Fold Breath of Tiamat (Good DFAs need not apply), and that's late in the DFA's career.

[Thrawn183]

It's 3d6 damage at level five.

Don't forget, since you don't have to worry about running out of invocations (and it is easy to load up on only non-combat invocations), you can build a DFA that simply doesn't care about his attack bonus or arcane spell failure chance.

That's right, just max Con. Nothing but Con, and stick him in full plate etc. Proficiency doesn't matter at all.

Additionally, you will learn to love slow breath. Why do I mention slow breath? Because it works with your slow but steady damage output.

Now let's examine what you'd be up against. A quick search through the SRD shows that CR 5's generally fall between 40-60 HP and CR 3's have somewhere around 20-40. Your slow breath will be of use against any high CR boss type encounter and your breath weapon will be inherently even better against large numbers of weaker enemies. So, yeah, you're actually fine for damage.

And while I know you're only talking about damage, your character should have somewhere in the vicinity of 20 Con (16 base +2 race +2 item) for 51 HP yourself while having a very high AC.

[Ruethgar]

Then of course there are also the metabreath and 3rd party metabreathish feats. Makes it very feat intense(Chaos Shuffle + 1 level Cloistered Cleric for 5 free feats), but they can be great fun. You still can't get much damage out of it, but you get two of the relatively few damage over time effects and you get it infinite times per day. Oh, and you can entangle and slow them so they stay in the DoT area and burn.

Edit: Forgot, you need to be sure to pick up Power Surge or talk to your DM about qualifying for the metabreath with DFA.

[Thrawn183]

Just figured I should mention.

I advocate a Con focused build to increase the save DC of your breath weapon. You know what happens when you take Endurance and Steadfast Determination on a character with truly maxed Con, that also has good Fort and Will saves? They will basically never fail those saving throws ever again. It's dirty. And who cares about Reflex saves when you're rocking boatloads of HP?

Heck, you even get DR/magic which I have found is more useful than a lot of people give it credit.

Edit: I recommend thinking long and hard about playing a character that is a mongrelfolk dragonborn of Bahamut. That 0 LA +6 Con is very tempting, but don't try and cause problems with your party by going nuts with this kind of stuff. Remember: pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

[Incanur]

Proficiency doesn't matter at all.

-5 or -6 to initiative matters.

[Vortenger]

Mithril Chain Shirts for everybody!

[Raezeman]

I play a dragonfire adept in a campaign, so what i can say is:
Dragon Spirit Cincture, 2000gp, adds 1 die of damage to you breath attack.

But at early levels, dealing damage is not going to be your strong point. With the entangling exhalation feat, you can basically cripple enemy forces. The big damage dealers in my party are then the dread necromancer with his summons and the fighter (wizard not really based on dealing damage).

If you really want the damage, it get's better later on:
at level 10 you can take enduring breath, which deals half the damage again the next round.
And at level 15, you can take 5-folded breath of tiamat, which is basically a full-round to use your breath weapon 5 times! Note that elemental resistances can be rather annoying here, as the 5 breaths are composed out of 2 acid, 1 electric, 1 cold, 1 fire if i'm not mistaken. Also, you can only take 5-folded if you are evil. If good, you can take discorporating breath of bahamut, which deals double the breath damage and can't be stopped by elemental resistance.

[Deophaun]

Also, you can only take 5-folded if you are evil.
No, just non-good. Neutral characters taking fivefold breath (it's not origami) just take twice the damage their evil counterparts would take from it.

[lytokk]

-5 or -6 to initiative matters.

Dragonborn Warforged Dragonfire Adept with Adamantine Body feat. No need now for proficiency as he's automatically proficient with his own body.

[kpumphre]

3d6 a round every round. Hmm fighter is doing let's say he's good at it and does 2d6+13 wow wait your saying you are not that far below the fighter in damage but you are doing up to about 5 targets at once.

Now lets say you step off the beaten path and use entangling blast for half damage. 1d6+1d3 however your enemies can't charge and move at half speed. Also put negative to their dex. This effect stacks if I remember correctly so 1d4 rounds which means you can occasionally get 4d6+4d3 in a round plus your attack. so your total would be 4d6+4d3 with no save and 3d6 with a save for half. Maxium damage would be 54 in a single round.

Level 5 you also get some nice effects so one round you slow, the next round you entangle.


At level 3 I killed a level 5 witch and 2 undead by my self. I attacked then ran while the damage kept on them. Now granted it was a long fight especially because she had an auto heal on her, but I won in the end and got a ton of xp that the party missed out on cause they didn't want to come with me.


My character is Kobold, and I stand in the same square as the fighter (me tiny lol) and attack from here giving me extra cover from him but keeping everyone slow. Honestly I have killed every major villain that we have come up against because most of the party has had such a hard time hitting them. I may not get the final damage point but when you have 3d6 around plus another 1d6 from your current attack the bad guys tend to go down fast.

[limejuicepowder]

3d6 a round every round. Hmm fighter is doing let's say he's good horrendous at it and does 2d6+6

Fixed that for yah. The only level a fighter should be doing 2d6+6 damage is first, and sometimes not even then. By level 5 (and 5 is a bad level for fighters) he should be swinging for more like....2d6+13, before buffs, or 2d6+21 on a charge.

[kpumphre]

2d6+13 verses 4d6+4d3+ 3d6 X 4 characters at once.

[Deophaun]

3d6 a round every round. Hmm fighter is doing let's say he's good at it and does 2d6+6 wow wait your saying you just matched the fighter in damage.
As stated, this is not a lot of damage for a 5th level fighter. Now, it may be average among groups due to the low optimization floor of a fighter. That is something that DFAs have: they are good damage dealers in low op. But otherwise, they aren't.

Besides, your fighter can get a lot more damage than limejuicepowder lets on. The Dungeoncrasher ACF can add another average 22 points of damage on top of that rather easily (and that can be further doubled with a trip build as well).

Further, you're overestimating how many enemies your 15' cone or 30' line is likely to catch.

Now lets say you step off the beaten path and use entangling blast for half damage. 1d6+1d3 however your enemies can't charge and move at half speed. Also put negative to their dex. This effect stacks if I remember correctly so 1d4 rounds which means you can occasionally get 4d6+4d3 in a round plus your attack.
The problem here is that takes four rounds to build up. Beyond low-op, most fights will be over already.

so your total would be 4d6+4d3 with no save and 3d6 with a save for half. Maxium damage would be 54 in a single round.
Maximum means as much as minimum. So we could say 10 damage and it would be equally meaningless.

My character is Kobold, and I stand in the same square as the fighter (me tiny lol)
Unless you're under the effect of a reduce person spell, you aren't tiny. The Slight Build ability specifically says your space is unchanged.

[kpumphre]

In the games I've played it's been pretty easy but I've been up front with the fighter. So I catch them.


Still you did forget the one big difference DFA always hits (minus evasion). When you maximize your attacks for fighter your ability to hit can suffer, if you miss then all the damage in the world wont do any good.

It just depends on what you mean. Straight up damage in a single round then fighter will beat most.

As for the size thing huh didn't notice that part your right, sigh it was so nice having the fighter as my extra shield, guess I'm back to the front :( ah well I still have 23 ac so not to worry.

[kpumphre]

Also you are probably right I've only played DFA in low level games, though I should hit 5th level this weekend. Most of my previous games only go up to about 9 so for the type I'm used to they deal a good amount of damage and are better for role playing with change shape and such. But you can build a fighter version of DFA with warshaper levels and that can get some good damage.

[Ruethgar]

Oh, don't forget the arctic template for +2 Con -2 Cha.

[Deophaun]

The reflex saves do hurt though. It's a common strong save. Throw in things with evasion and resistance/immunity to fire damage (because you can only use a given breath effect every other round), and the DFA's damage isn't necessarily reliable either.

Plus, a basic melee character is more compatible with party buffers. The DFA receives no help from an IC/DFI Bard, and haste does little for him as well. If the Druid casts mass snake's swiftness, you're no better off than a wizard trying to poke an adjacent enemy with a pointy stick. The only things that help your damage at low levels are bear's endurance, which just reduces the chance someone will save against you, and raging flame, which it's unlikely anyone is going to ever cast just to benefit you, assuming the spellcaster has ever heard of it.

Most of my previous games only go up to about 9 so for the type I'm used to they deal a good amount of damage and are better for role playing with change shape and such.
There is little question that the DFA is a better class than the Fighter. Fighter is a tier 5 class, while DFA is a high tier 4. Humanoid shape, baleful geas, chilling fog, possession of one of these alone puts it over the Fighter in terms of class versatility. But, that's not at issue here.

[IAmTehDave]

I'm looking to play a DFA at some point in the future, and from everything I've seen, it looks like you don't pick up DFA to be a primary damage dealer. (at least until 15 with FBoT if evil. If good, try to find a workable fix for DBoB that your DM will agree with.)

DFAs are much more utility and battlefield control.

[Draz74]

Supporting what's been said before:
- It's not really a class focused on damage-dealing.
- It's definitely a much better class than Samurai or even Fighter.
- About the time that you hit Level 4, you must do everything you can to acquire a Dragon Spirit Cincture. (At lower levels, you can't afford it.) Combine it with a Least Weapon Crystal or two (they're very cheap) to turn the weapon you hold (but don't use) into a +1 Breath Save DC.

And some new comments (for this thread):
- At low levels, Entangling Exhalation (RotD) makes you a much better debuffer. Once you're at Level 5, it's still a nice feat to have, but no longer crucial.
- Everyone raves about Slow Breath, and it is pretty awesome -- in some situations. At higher levels, when monsters or NPCs can have 4+ attacks in a full attack, it's probably a must-have. But depending on what kinds of monsters your DM likes to throw at you, I think Weakening Breath might actually be a better choice at Level 5. (Then Thunder Breath at Level 10, then Slow Breath at Level 12.)


If good, try to find a workable fix for DBoB that your DM will agree with.)

Double damage and typeless damage is actually a pretty cool foundation for a breath weapon; not quite as good as multi-type x5 damage, but still a worthy breath effect to pick up at Level 15. (And unlike Tiamat Breath, at least it still lets you use another one of your Breath Effects on the following round. Tiamat Breathers need to pick an Invocation that's actually useful in-combat, and probably boost their Charisma accordingly, or else they'll end up being useless every other round.)

But yeah, you'll at least want to plead for your DM to drop the two big stupid weaknesses that Breath of Bahamat has: (1) disintegrating the loot you wanted to collect from your enemies, and (2) not working at all on undead and constructs.

If that's not enough, changing it to a cone-shape instead of a line should fix the issue.

[jindra34]

There is little question that the DFA is a better class than the Fighter. Fighter is a tier 5 class, while DFA is a high tier 4. Humanoid shape, baleful geas, chilling fog, possession of one of these alone puts it over the Fighter in terms of class versatility. But, that's not at issue here.

Its actually somewhere in tier 3. Your forgetting the breath effects like slow and paralyzing. It comes with a good toolkit which you get to pick a good number of options from. Raw damage just isn't one of the things possible early on (or really ever without the 5-fold breath...).

[Phelix-Mu]

In a relatively low-op game, I dipped DFA at first level for a wizard build that I wanted to have more skill points on. With Knowledge Devotion optimization, DFA breath weapon is a pretty nice fallback position for a low-level wizard (though probably not worth violating "Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels" in the big scheme of things).

Although it's not DFA, I find DFA's good fodder for Leadership and Dragon Cohort. DFA round to round actions are quite repetitive (and sometimes DMs want to roll those saves, so it might be almost no dice rolling...*sad face*). Thus, a cohort of some kind can be a nice change of mechanic, and there is tons of nice dragon-related flavor to exploit for options and builds for the cohort. Again, this isn't a way to add damage to DFA, but it will make the character more effective (in the way that these options make every character more effective, if indirectly so).