Resurecting Transformation Victems

[Thanatosia]

When an undead creates spawn, it's pretty clear you can bring back the orginal victem by destroying their body and reviving them.

But what about non-undead creature transformations? For example - A Blue Slaad's Disease, A Vargoyle's Kiss, or the touch of a Chaos Beast. Can the victems of such transformations be resurrected, or have their 'essences' been transformed to the extent that any attempt to ressurect them just ressurects them back as the Slaad/Vargoyle/ChaosBeast that they have become?

[Flickerdart]

It seems like it's too late to do anything at that point, since the victim's not actually dead, merely changed physically and mentally into another creature (the same way resurrection wouldn't help against, say, a combo of mind seed plus astral seed).

[MonochromeTiger]

When an undead creates spawn, it's pretty clear you can bring back the orginal victem by destroying their body and reviving them.

But what about non-undead creature transformations? For example - A Blue Slaad's Disease, A Vargoyle's Kiss, or the touch of a Chaos Beast. Can the victems of such transformations be resurrected, or have their 'essences' been transformed to the extent that any attempt to ressurect them just ressurects them back as the Slaad/Vargoyle/ChaosBeast that they have become?

this was actually something that's been debated a few times around my table so I've heard a few different views on it now. my personal view is that resurrection, true resurrection, and raise dead all seem to use the dead creature's current body as the template of what to restore life to whereas reincarnate doesn't (meaning unless the transformation specifically says it ends on death or is removed by a resurrection it stays in that body) however in that case it would be a simple matter of breaking whatever magic changed them before bringing them back.

another view I've heard is that all forms of resurrection should be powerful enough to ignore or break those effects so that on being raised a character is completely back to normal. a third much less liked viewpoint is that if you get transformed to a monster before dieing that prevents resurrection techniques from working (since according to this person atleast they're "tuned to a humanoid and nothing else"(I DID say least liked)) and thus the character is permanently dead.

[Flickerdart]

Being "powerful enough" seems like kind of a silly argument. Implosion is more powerful than identify, but still doesn't replicate its properties.

[MonochromeTiger]

Being "powerful enough" seems like kind of a silly argument. Implosion is more powerful than identify, but still doesn't replicate its properties.

while I agree that those two views were slightly flawed and rather more dependent on personal opinion of power than I would like, you have to admit "being powerful enough" actually counts for quite a bit in an RPG. your further use of 2 things that have entirely different effects to make the views seem more preposterous than they already are isn't really aiding in my willingness to let you tear apart my friends' thoughts on the matter. also, read the topic creator's post, it's on the matter of the creature that was transformed being dead and not just "well it's still alive this should remove the transformation" as your first post seemed to take it.

[Flickerdart]

while I agree that those two views were slightly flawed and rather more dependent on personal opinion of power than I would like, you have to admit "being powerful enough" actually counts for quite a bit in an RPG. your further use of 2 things that have entirely different effects to make the views seem more preposterous than they already are isn't really aiding in my willingness to let you tear apart my friends' thoughts on the matter. also, read the topic creator's post, it's on the matter of the creature that was transformed being dead and not just "well it's still alive this should remove the transformation" as your first post seemed to take it.
If the creature never dies, it is not dead. As it is not dead, resurrection is not effective. Resurrection has an effect that differs from spells that traditionally cure transformations (such as remove curse and braek enchantment); the difference is just as wide as between any two other unrelated spells.

[MonochromeTiger]

If the creature never dies, it is not dead. As it is not dead, resurrection is not effective. Resurrection has an effect that differs from spells that traditionally cure transformations (such as remove curse and braek enchantment); the difference is just as wide as between any two other unrelated spells.

...I just pointed out something that should've made this post stop before it was even made. THE FIRST POST OF THE THREAD actively mentions "does it bring them back as a slaad/vargoyle/chaos beast that they've become?" meaning AFTER THEY'RE ALREADY DEAD does the resurrection effect take their transformed state into account or not. please stop trying to ignore that fact as it is basic reading to look at more than the first few words of a post.

[Flickerdart]

...I just pointed out something that should've made this post stop before it was even made. THE FIRST POST OF THE THREAD actively mentions "does it bring them back as a slaad/vargoyle/chaos beast that they've become?" meaning AFTER THEY'RE ALREADY DEAD does the resurrection effect take their transformed state into account or not. please stop trying to ignore that fact as it is basic reading to look at more than the first few words of a post.
You misunderstand.

The reason resurrection works to restore a person to life when they have been turned into an undead creature is because the process goes like this: a) guy is killed; b) guy's body is zapped with a bunch of negative energy; c) guy's body rises to seek the flesh of the living. The undead creature is not, in essence, the person, merely negative energy piloting his corpse. Whenyou get rid of the negative energy by killing the creature, you in essence undo steps c) and b), returning the system state to a corpse. You can then use resurrection to undo step a) and bring back the person safe and sound.

On the other hand, a vargouille's curse works like this: a) guy is bit; b) guy is turned into a vargouille. The person never died; thus, killing the vargouille doesn't reset the system state. You are not turning a zombie into your buddy's corpse. You're turning a vargouille into a vargouille corpse. All you get when you raise it is a vargouille.

[Psyren]

On the other hand, a vargouille's curse works like this: a) guy is bit; b) guy is turned into a vargouille. The person never died; thus, killing the vargouille doesn't reset the system state.

This is incorrect. Vargouille:


The transformation is complete 1d6 hours later, when the head breaks free of the body (which promptly dies) and becomes a vargouille.

The body is dead and can thus be raised. In fact, you can probably raise them even if the Vargouille that spawned from their ears/head is still alive somewhere.

[AstralFire]

This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method).

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of level (or Constitution points) or prepared spells.

The only type of bodily damage which is not undone by true resurrection is that of old age. I think it is reasonable to view a True Resurrection as undoing a transformation, though I doubt it was intended.

Reincarnate is... interesting, from a fluff standpoint, as a way to cure these things. It certainly gives a niche to an unused spell.

[Flickerdart]

This is incorrect. Vargouille:



The body is dead and can thus be raised. In fact, you can probably raise them even if the Vargouille that spawned from their ears/head is still alive somewhere.
The body dies, in the same way that an amputated arm dies. The character is not the body any longer.

Regardless, other abilities like this (such as the chaos beast's) don't feature death.

[MonochromeTiger]

You misunderstand.

The reason resurrection works to restore a person to life when they have been turned into an undead creature is because the process goes like this: a) guy is killed; b) guy's body is zapped with a bunch of negative energy; c) guy's body rises to seek the flesh of the living. The undead creature is not, in essence, the person, merely negative energy piloting his corpse. Whenyou get rid of the negative energy by killing the creature, you in essence undo steps c) and b), returning the system state to a corpse. You can then use resurrection to undo step a) and bring back the person safe and sound.

On the other hand, a vargouille's curse works like this: a) guy is bit; b) guy is turned into a vargouille. The person never died; thus, killing the vargouille doesn't reset the system state. You are not turning a zombie into your buddy's corpse. You're turning a vargouille into a vargouille corpse. All you get when you raise it is a vargouille.

the result still depends on the type of resurrection however which is what my first response to the question is about. reincarnate creates an entirely new body (usually at random) to put the dead creature's soul into. resurrect (usually unless the DM chooses otherwise) would likely bring back the person as what they were changed into, true resurrection doesn't even seem to need a body so I'm not even certain on that one, and a wish or miracle may very well bring them back to normal. and thank you for rephrasing that so that I can understand that you actually read the question.

[MonochromeTiger]

The body dies, in the same way that an amputated arm dies. The character is not the body any longer.

Regardless, other abilities like this (such as the chaos beast's) don't feature death.

it could be argued that the character ceases to live the second a hostile creature uses their skull to reproduce.

[Flickerdart]

the result still depends on the type of resurrection however which is what my first response to the question is about. reincarnate creates an entirely new body (usually at random) to put the dead creature's soul into. resurrect (usually unless the DM chooses otherwise) would likely bring back the person as what they were changed into, true resurrection doesn't even seem to need a body so I'm not even certain on that one, and a wish or miracle may very well bring them back to normal. and thank you for rephrasing that so that I can understand that you actually read the question.
Wish and miracle would certainly do the job; undoing transformations seems like it would be well within their power. The others wouldn't work because the creature isn't and was never dead (aside from the minor quibble with the vargouille's body thing) so it would be like trying to resurrect a person's arm back on after it was severed.


it could be argued that the character ceases to live the second a hostile creature uses their skull to reproduce.
It couldn't. Death in D&D has a very specific definition.

[MonochromeTiger]

Wish and miracle would certainly do the job; undoing transformations seems like it would be well within their power. The others wouldn't work because the creature isn't and was never dead (aside from the minor quibble with the vargouille's body thing) so it would be like trying to resurrect a person's arm back on after it was severed.


It couldn't. Death in D&D has a very specific definition.

and we're back to disagreeing on the basis of the question. if the creature is dead, which it would be in order for someone to even try resurrecting unless they're REALLY not thinking through that whole 'personal safety' thing.. reincarnate would almost definitely work, wish and miracle would very likely work, resurrection we both agree doesn't, true resurrection I'm still curious on. but the thing that can't be ignored here (which your posts repeatedly do) is that the creature would have been killed by this point.

and actually, generally when your head ceases to be part of you you're considered "dead" unless you were originally capable of doing that on your own without external help (such as a sharp object to the neck).

[Psyren]

The body dies, in the same way that an amputated arm dies. The character is not the body any longer.

Of course he isn't - his soul has left the body, because that is the definition of death in D&D, and the body explicitly dies.

"The condition of the remains is not a factor." A headless corpse is still a corpse.

[Flickerdart]

but the thing that can't be ignored here (which your posts repeatedly do) is that the creature would have been killed by this point.
I have ignored nothing. In fact, I clearly acknowledge that you have to kill the thing when I say
You are not turning a zombie into your buddy's corpse. You're turning a vargouille into a vargouille corpse.
If you cast a resurrection spell on your buddy's corpse, even if it used to be a zombie, you get back your buddy. If you cast it on a vargouille corpse, you get a vargouille. If you cast it on a chaos beast corpse, you get a chaos beast. If you cast it on a slaad corpse, you get a slaad, because your friend's corpse is what becomes a zombie, but your friend is what becomes a chaos beast/etc.

[Psyren]

The headless body is not a "vargouille corpse." It is your buddy's corpse, now and forever.

[Flickerdart]

The headless body is not a "vargouille corpse." It is your buddy's corpse, now and forever.
As far as I can tell, between accusing me of not reading, he's talking about killing the thing first and then using its body to dial back in time and resurrect what it used to be. Given the vargouille's unusual transformation method, resurrecting the body it leaves behind when the head flies off may or may not work, but it's a separate issue from the general case that we see in other creatures the OP mentions.

[Psyren]

For the others, Miracle will work - there is no hard limit on what it cannot do.