What advantages does psion casting have over wizard casting?

[CyberThread]

I would like to know, what strengths that psion casting has, as far as available powers that a wizard does not have in comparable to spells, and abilities and side affects of ways they "cast"

[Lightlawbliss]

just as a note, a psion is more of a sorcerer. Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b) is the wizard of psionics.

Psionics is more versatile within the same power compared to spells, and tends to be harder to cheese (assuming the cap on power points used is remembered).

There is also less support material for psionics which results in fewer overall options.

[CyberThread]

Those don't sound like advantages....

[cakellene]

More versatility such as a single power that can be changed to various damage types without having to resort to feats. Augment powers with power points to increase power.

[Lightlawbliss]

Those don't sound like advantages....

all three, more or less, can be both good and bad depending on the user. Some find them great. Optimizer tend to care the most about the first one (first after the note that is).

[Tengu_temp]

Psions are more foolproof at low level, the fact that all of their powers can scale is nice, and a lot of people (myself included) prefer an MP system over having to fiddle with spell slots.

Psions are less powerful than wizards, but that's a good thing, because wizards are disgustingly overpowered.

[Story]

Stuff that Psions get which Wizards don't? The big one is Psychic Reformation. Though a lenient DM would probably let you just Limited Wish it.

Psionics is also a lot better at time manipulation and action economy abuse with stuff like Linked Power + Synchronicity.

Overall though the Wizard spelllist is better, plus they get all spells augmented for free and easier access to metamagic. The only Psionic class to reach tier 1 is one that can cast Wizard spells.

[MonochromeTiger]

I would like to know, what strengths that psion casting has, as far as available powers that a wizard does not have in comparable to spells, and abilities and side affects of ways they "cast"

psions are capable of about the same casting effects as a wizard would have (with some variation for different psionic classes) but overall seem more versatile in their casting than wizards. where a wizard has a set number of spells a psion has points which can go into any of the powers they know, in addition some psionic powers have the option to increase certain effects by putting more power points into the cast.

psions also have an easier time casting without being caught as some psion powers don't have any visible or audible casting components or effects and instead directly attack the enemy through their mind (so there's nothing indicating "that guy with the robe did it" to an enemy).

[Lightlawbliss]

as another example: one (1) power (astral construct) gives you as much if not more then the entire summon monster line of spells (different low points and high points but otherwise very comparable).

[Story]

Wasn't Astral Construct heavily nerfed in Complete Psionics? I guess it depends on whether you houserule away the stealth nerfs or not.

[Erik Vale]

Free Still/Silent Spell. Since it's a mental action, paralyzing a Psion may well do absolutely nothing.

Low level power reacharge tricks, after about level 3 a intelligently played psion is never out of power points.

They can create new powers like wizards etc, but don't then have to drop a power, meaning they can have All the powers, it just takes longer.

[Tar Palantir]

Also, note that while the actual power effects have few advantages over the wizard's spells, the basic mechanics of manifesting over spellcasting are rather handy. No verbal or somatic components, no material components, expensive or otherwise; manifesting is a purely mental action, which is great for those times when you're paralyzed or grappled or manacled or whatever. Add to that the fact that suppressing the display is very easy and that you suffer no failure chance for wearing armor, and you can bring the squishy wizard pain without looking like a squishy wizard. The power point system is also more flexible, in that you can spend all your points on a few max-level effects, or cast a billion 1pp powers, whatever the situation demands.

[Eldariel]

Wasn't Astral Construct heavily nerfed in Complete Psionics? I guess it depends on whether you houserule away the stealth nerfs or not.

At least the whole of Char Ops has mostly ignored the Complete Psionics changes for...obvious reasons. But yeah, Astral Construct doesn't quite get all the nice spell-likes you get from SM-line but it's very solid otherwise.

[Tengu_temp]

Low level power reacharge tricks, after about level 3 a intelligently played psion is never out of power points.


Can you give an example?

[Erik Vale]

Can you give an example?


Inspired by some of the stuff in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177665) I've decided to try my hand at writing a Psionic Tricks Handbook. It would be a sort of clearing house for psionic tricks, tactics, and combos. Trouble is, I'm no expert on what tricks you can pull with Psionics. So I humbly ask for help in this endeavor.

The MoI Recharge Trick -
The Recharge Trick uses Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power and Metapower to manifest Bestow Power (linked to a 1st level power) with a lower power point cost than power points bestowed by Bestow Power. This allows your psychic to do his thing, all day long.
Feats: Midnight Augmentation, Linked Power, Metapower, Psicrystal Containment
Powers: Bestow Power, a first level power (Here I use Synchronicity)
Method:
1. Focus yourself and your Psicrystal
2. You choose Synchronicity to be effected by Midnight Augmentation, investing one essentia
3. Expend your Psychic Focus to manifest a Synchronicity (which you have chosen to permanently join Linked Power to by Metapower)
4. Expend your Psicrystal's Psychic Focus to manifest Synchronicity, linked to Bestow Power (Costs reduced by Midnight Augmentation for -1, and Metapower for -2, reducing the cost of the Hustle/Bestow Power combo to 1 PP)
5. Refocus yourself and your Psicrystal (Doable in one round, if you choose Synchronicity as your 1st level power)
6. Repeat 3-6
Minimum Level: 3 (Higher without Flaws + Human)


Quote/Linked because it's easier than typing.
Also Torc of Power Preservation and Earth Power for ones less likely to get ban hammered until to late by the DM, however unless you ignore WBL that takes longer.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Psions have a lot more options to break the action economy. Schism, Linked Power, Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Sense Danger and Forced Dream all allow you to gain extra actions.
They also gain Temporal Acceleration a lot earlier than wizards gain Time Stop.

[Artillery]

There is so much fun with Psionics too. Its like a Sorcerer except the spells you can get can be much more broad. Things that are just incredibly useful, like Time Hop. If you can't think of a way to solve a problem by sending an object rounds/level into the future you need to think harder. Telepathy at level 1 with teammates is nice.

Good times, also Expansion works on all types so its nice too. King of Smack is nice too.

[AstralFire]

Psionics is easier to break an unprepared DM with, but ultimately more limited in all out Gygaxgeddon Conflicts.

[Greenish]

Psionics is easier to break an unprepared DM with, but ultimately more limited in all out Gygaxgeddon Conflicts.Maybe you mean DMs are less likely to be familiar with the ways the psionics system can be bent, as opposed to Vancian magic (due to latter's core status)?


Anyway, the way specialization works on psions is much better than the one wizards have (in my opinion). A Telepath psion can manifest powers none of the other specializations have access to, whilst all wizards who haven't banned a given school have just as much access to it as the specialists.

[AstralFire]

Maybe you mean DMs are less likely to be familiar with the ways the psionics system can be bent, as opposed to Vancian magic (due to latter's core status)?


Anyway, the way specialization works on psions is much better than the one wizards have (in my opinion). A Telepath psion can manifest powers none of the other specializations have access to, whilst all wizards who haven't banned a given school have just as much access to it as the specialists.

Agreed on the latter half. Relatively boring to mechanically identify a wizard as a specific type of specialist, while it impacts several things about a psion without any of them being crippling.

On the former half: No, I simply mean that psionics doesn't really have "traps" in it. It's very unlikely that you will pick useless powers known as an inexperienced player choosing only on what sounds cool, while the possibility is very high for both prepared casters and spontaneous casters using the prepared caster lists.

It's very possible for someone to pick up psionics and cause havoc very casually at a table that has never bothered to try and distinguish between "min-max", "munchkin", "rules lawyer", "power gamers" and "optimizer", even if the player is similarly inclined.

IMX, the times where this happens with a core caster tends to require someone who'd intended to think laterally while playing the character.

[avr]

There's other odd bits here and there. I'm not sure there's any direct equivalent to the Burrowing Power feat.

[Artillery]

A Psion is very nice to have in any party with limited spells known. Psychic Reformation is the quick way to do feat retraining or replacing known spells.

Comparing a Sorcerer to a Psion is a more apt comparison. A single power has a lot more versatility, Animal Affinity replaces 6 spells. Summon Astral Construct is one spell that does the summoning work of an entire line. Energy blasts with different energies etc. Powers are more adjustable but it doesn't come free like it does with spells.

Being a specialist feels more meaningful. Egoist doing sidework as the medic is also easily doable without needing to focus on it. Share Pain and Vigor combo with a Psicrystal with Empathic Transfer is a good source of healing. Starting an encounter with 10xML temporary hit points lets you do it without too many worries.

[Rubik]

Psionic characters are really difficult to shut down short of blinding them. You can paralyze them, tie them up, silence them, shove them in a set of full-plate, bind them in shackles, grapple them, throw them in a storm on top of a racing carriage, reduce them to floating spirits, and even steal that book they carry around with the weird arcane runes in them, and they won't care.

Even blinding them still allows them to pull something off, even if it's just self-buffing and AoE effects, and they have powers that overcome blindness as well, assuming they take them.

While manifesters are missing a large number of effects that other casters have, they also have quite a few that no other casters have, and the ones that overlap tend to have additional options found nowhere else. Psychic Reformation is an instantaneous rebuild, for instance. Linked Power acts just like Arcane Fusion, except it's available at level 1 (or level 2 without jumping through other hoops), and the second power goes off the next round (regardless of manifesting times). Energy-based powers (cold/fire/electricity/sonic) allow you to choose the energy type on the fly without requiring a feat. Eeeeee! It's AstralFire! Astral Construct, the summoning equivalent, is unaffected by spells that dismiss summonses and hedge out outsiders, because it creates a construct rather than calling or summoning an outsider, and it lets you build your pet from a suite of options to suit the situation at hand. The Burrowing Power feat and Time Hop power are entirely unique. And so on.

[Chronos]

Psions also have the option of spending all of their points on their highest-level powers. A level 20 wizard with a 36 Int will have 7 ninth-level spells per day (plus oodles of lower-level spells), while a psion with the same stats will have enough points to manifest 27 ninth-level powers per day (with almost none left over for lower levels).

[Rubik]

Psions also have the option of spending all of their points on their highest-level powers. A level 20 wizard with a 36 Int will have 7 ninth-level spells per day (plus oodles of lower-level spells), while a psion with the same stats will have enough points to manifest 27 ninth-level powers per day (with almost none left over for lower levels).Most psion options aren't as good as 9th level spells, for what it's worth, though they can boost most of their powers up to the efficacy of, say, Meteor Swarm.

Not that Meteor Swarm is worth a 9th level spell slot. 7th, maybe.

[Story]

Psionic characters are really difficult to shut down short of blinding them. You can paralyze them, tie them up, silence them, shove them in a set of full-plate, bind them in shackles, grapple them, throw them in a storm on top of a racing carriage, reduce them to floating spirits, and even steal that book they carry around with the weird arcane runes in them, and they won't care.


Mental ability damage still works, as does an AMF.

Anyway, a prepared Wizard could escape from most of those conditions if necessary. Heart of Water alone bypasses half of them. And concentration checks are trivial past low levels. Of course this is something they just do to escape, rather than the default state of casting.

[Rubik]

Mental ability damage still works, as does an AMF.

Anyway, a prepared Wizard could escape from most of those conditions if necessary. Heart of Water alone bypasses half of them. And concentration checks are trivial past low levels. Of course this is something they just do to escape, rather than the default state of casting.Sure. Mental ability damage works, as does killing them, or knocking them out. But that works for anyone. Except if the psion has Unconditional Power. Then he can manifest even when unconscious (or, technically, dead, but...).

And yes, wizards can do it later on, but psions can do so at level 1.

Oh, and psions also work well when transmuted into non-humanoid things. Dragon? Sure. Squirrel? Yes. Dire earthworm? Why not?

[dspeyer]

There's also the simple fact that psions are spontaneous casters who get powers at 2n-1 (unlike sorcerers). Combined with the flexibility of powers, a psion probably has the best bet in the game of having the right ability ready for a completely unexpected problem. Best in SRD, anyway.

[Chronos]

Quoth Rubik:

Most psion options aren't as good as 9th level spells, for what it's worth, though they can boost most of their powers up to the efficacy of, say, Meteor Swarm.
Most 9th level spells aren't as good as 9th level spells, either. I mean, yeah, you've got the likes of Wish and Shapechange, but then, psions have Reality Revision and Greater Metamorphosis to match them. Meanwhile, you also have spells like Etherealness, Weird, and Soul Bind. Wizards probably have a larger number of great 9th-level spells, but that's just because wizards have a larger number of spells, period.

[Vortenger]

Low level power reacharge tricks, after about level 3 a intelligently played psion is never out of power points.


Gotta say, I protest the tone of this post. Just because a trick exists, it doesn't mean its common. Or commonly accepted at gaming tables for that matter. To say an intelligently played psion has this is inaccurate. You are not magically unintelligent if you don't play a feat based race w/ flaws to pull off a trick. Most games don't have flaws, its a variant rule. Ergo, its not a low level trick in most games. Its is a good trick, but the level of finality presented about it seems odd.

That being said, recharge does exist if you build around it, and that is one serious leg up on the average wizard. How much WBL would go into pearls of power to replicate a similar feat? Priceless.

[Vortenger]

Most 9th level spells aren't as good as 9th level spells, either.


I know this was just an edit error, but I love it anyways.

[Rubik]

I know this was just an edit error, but I love it anyways.Actually, I'm pretty sure it's not. Most 9th level spells aren't on par with the ones he mentioned.

[Chronos]

No, that's what I intended to write. When people say things like "not as good as 9th level spells", what they mean is "not as good as the really good 9th level spells". But most 9th level spells aren't the really good ones.

[Story]

There's also the simple fact that psions are spontaneous casters who get powers at 2n-1 (unlike sorcerers). Combined with the flexibility of powers, a psion probably has the best bet in the game of having the right ability ready for a completely unexpected problem. Best in SRD, anyway.

I was going to say Uncanny Forethought, but you're right about the SRD thing. Though in my experience, many DMs just ban Psionics and to heck with the SRD. Even though it's completely unfair, Psionics does have a bad perception.

[Rubik]

I was going to say Uncanny Forethought, but you're right about the SRD thing. Though in my experience, many DMs just ban Psionics and to heck with the SRD. Even though it's completely unfair, Psionics does have a bad perception.Just send them to the Psionics Myths thread. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946751)

[Vortenger]

Even given proper context, I'm still quoting it later. Thanks for clarifying ,though.

[Agrippa]

Psions are more foolproof at low level, the fact that all of their powers can scale is nice, and a lot of people (myself included) prefer an MP system over having to fiddle with spell slots.

Psions are less powerful than wizards, but that's a good thing, because wizards are disgustingly overpowered.

I agree with you Tengu about a preference for MP systems over spell slots and that the wizard class and arcane magic as are horrifically overpowered. I just don't know what you mean by foolproof though. With that said it's extremly difficult to convince some people of this. Especially counting arguments that wizards should be obscenely powerful at high levels because they start out so weak and spell slots and pre selecting spells are good because they seperate the "superior" players who enjoy intense resource management from the "inferior" ones who don't.

[Particle_Man]

It is not as much of a hassle to wear armour and do psionics at the same time.

[Story]

I've never seen the appeal of casting in armor. Just grab a Githcraft Gnome Twist Cloth and be done with it. You don't get armor for the armor bonus anyway, and twist cloth has the advantage of no ACP and no max dex bonus.

[Mabn]

Hm, good psionic stuff...Greater concealing amorphea (total concealment, not hax but I find it handy), more broken polymorph (you can turn into objects and gain supernatural abilities with the default), time stop is level 6, minor creation is level 1 (and you can cast it a bajillion times a day if you want to later on), you can get pounce as a bonus feat (for gish builds). There is more, but of the top of my head those are the ones I shy away from if I'm playing with psionics. And there are much easier ways to get infinite power points that don't require you to spend actions and powers. I like bind vestige: Naberius + body fuel, because it also lets you shrug of mental ability damage, but I'm sure everyone has their own preferences. Before I forget, another advantage of psionics is that splashing wont horrifically nerf you because practiced manifester raises your power point cap by 4 (up to ecl), instead of just your caster level like the wizard equivalent.

[Phelix-Mu]

The only Psionic class to reach tier 1 is one that can cast Wizard spells.

But, luckily, in theory at least, all psions can know whatever wizard spells they want by teaching an StP erudite psychic chirurgery and then have the erudite teach them spells using the chirurgery.

With enough thought bottle abuse, the whole thing really just implodes, to the extent that, in terms of theoretical optimization, it shouldn't stop until all psions know all wizard spells. When I heard Tippy explain this, my mind just about exploded. Which I suppose is apropos for something relating to psionics.

[MonochromeTiger]

But, luckily, in theory at least, all psions can know whatever wizard spells they want by teaching an StP erudite psychic chirurgery and then have the erudite teach them spells using the chirurgery.

With enough thought bottle abuse, the whole thing really just implodes, to the extent that, in terms of theoretical optimization, it shouldn't stop until all psions know all wizard spells. When I heard Tippy explain this, my mind just about exploded. Which I suppose is apropos for something relating to psionics.

really having a friend who managed to find a ton of ways to abuse the psionics system for his character (and I still understand NONE of them) I'm kind of surprised when people don't realize that despite the cries that psions are perfectly balanced they are absolutely riddled with exploitative techniques that can be used to overpower just about anything with a little patience.

[Phelix-Mu]

really having a friend who managed to find a ton of ways to abuse the psionics system for his character (and I still understand NONE of them) I'm kind of surprised when people don't realize that despite the cries that psions are perfectly balanced they are absolutely riddled with exploitative techniques that can be used to overpower just about anything with a little patience.

Well, notice that the words "thought bottle abuse" appeared in the TO, which indicates that this normally isn't possible, except that a stupid item made to break hard rules was inexplicably published. So, it's only partially a problem with psionics, as thought bottle itself is just as abusable. Even if a psion has infinite array of powers and spells, they are still limited by caps on PP expenditure per round and limited to whatever degree of PP-recharge cheese the DM can swallow.

[Venger]

Basic list of advantages from psion vs wizard:

Manifest in armor:

are you gonna use it that much? not really, but it's pretty nice at low levels to roll around in med/heavy armor without a penalty to your manifestations

No components for powers:

if a wizard is grappled, a large percentage of his spells are completely unusable. this is especially true at low-mid levels when he may not have a contingent of "spells to cast if enemies grapple me" such as translocation trick or shout

psions never need to worry about this. this is a handy defensive asset, since when you're grappled, you can manifest stuff like psionic freedom of movement on yourself.

the dc to dispense with displays is trivially easy as well, so really, no one should know you're manifesting anything unless you want them to. very handy if you roll telepath, as most psions do, and thus have a penchant for the puppetmaster thing and social encounters.

versatility:

as mentioned, the augment allowing you to juice up your powers vs the chunkiness of spell slots is really great. in case you're against a bunch of mook enemies, you can ping away with crystalstorm or the like, and if you run into a boss, you can unleash with cranial deluge or something that you like.

since the link to manifesting myths has been put in the thread already, I won't echo it, but if you're busy, the most important thing to know about manifesting is this:

you cannot augment a power beyond your ML

so all those arguments you read on the internet about psionics being broken because of NI DCs or NI d6 of energy damage or whatever nonsense have no real basis in fact.

this also serves to create a rough hierarchy within individual powers that've been consolidated such as charm. you unlock new creature types to make your slaves as you level up naturally, so there's some structure built into the system

this also keeps noob psions from screwing themselves too badly by blowing their entire load of PP at once, rendering it much more difficult to do so unless you're trying to wreck yourself

that's all I can think of for right now.

as a whole: psions (to me) are more fun than wizards because they require a lot more finesse to play. they have a lower ceiling, but a lower floor as well. check out the psion handbook and give it a try. you probably won't be disappointed.

[AstralFire]

really having a friend who managed to find a ton of ways to abuse the psionics system for his character (and I still understand NONE of them) I'm kind of surprised when people don't realize that despite the cries that psions are perfectly balanced they are absolutely riddled with exploitative techniques that can be used to overpower just about anything with a little patience.

I know you've got this giant chip on your shoulder about psionics, but you don't want to see the list of silly tippy tricks that can be done with a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

Psionics is not "perfectly balanced" - it's just user-friendly and almost as powerful as spells.

[Phelix-Mu]

I know you've got this giant chip on your shoulder about psionics, but you don't want to see the list of silly tippy tricks that can be done with a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

Psionics is not "perfectly balanced" - it's just user-friendly and almost as powerful as spells.

I actually prefer psionics optimization because it looks small and quaint next to the rampant insanity that is wizard/cleric optimization. It takes all sorts, I suppose.

[AMFV]

Additionally it's worth noting that if Psionics-Magic transparency is not in effect that far fewer monsters have Psi-Resistance, dispelling and detecting psionics is much rarer and psionics can work in an AMF. Of course most folks play with transparency but it is worth noting.

[Phelix-Mu]

I generally use transparency, but there are certain areas on my planet that are dead magic or dead psi, but not both, others that are both. For, you know, setting reasons. I also rule that some psionic powers don't work the same on spells, mostly the apopsi and catapsi stuff, which would only apply in vague and strange ways across transparency. I'll probably get around to editing in specific ways they work on magic users at some point.

[Lightlawbliss]

...
this also keeps noob psions from screwing...

nitpick: noob means they want to take other peoples credit without doing anything. newb is someone who is new and has yet to learn.

[CyberThread]

nitpick.... Ninja is darkness, yet you have light as a name :P

[TuggyNE]

nitpick: noob means they want to take other peoples credit without doing anything. newb is someone who is new and has yet to learn.

That's an interesting separation; I'm accustomed to using "noob", if at all, to denote someone who is not merely lacking in knowledge, but is unwilling to learn, even when given ample opportunity.

[AMFV]

That's an interesting separation; I'm accustomed to using "noob", if at all, to denote someone who is not merely lacking in knowledge, but is unwilling to learn, even when given ample opportunity.

I think there are many different subcultures that use noob, and I think that the severity and meaning can vary pretty heavily across them and even inside them

[Eldariel]

That's an interesting separation; I'm accustomed to using "noob", if at all, to denote someone who is not merely lacking in knowledge, but is unwilling to learn, even when given ample opportunity.


I think there are many different subcultures that use noob, and I think that the severity and meaning can vary pretty heavily across them and even inside them

I would hazard a guess he's applying a foreign definition to the term in an environment where it traditionally doesn't stand. It's much like how the term "munchkin" is used in the context of RPGs versus many other environments.

[Particle_Man]

I've never seen the appeal of casting in armor. Just grab a Githcraft Gnome Twist Cloth and be done with it. You don't get armor for the armor bonus anyway, and twist cloth has the advantage of no ACP and no max dex bonus.

Well armour is core and Githcraft Gnome Twist Cloth is something I have never heard of before now. :smallsmile: What book is that from?

[olentu]

Well armour is core and Githcraft Gnome Twist Cloth is something I have never heard of before now. What book is that from? ;)

Twist cloth is from races of stone as I recall and githcraft is from DMG 2

[AstralFire]

Twist cloth is from races of stone as I recall and githcraft is from DMG 2

Particle_Man was making the specific point that not everyone has access to every single book (and perhaps a more general point that people want to wear armor because it fits traditional concepts, as opposed to twistcloth.)

[olentu]

Particle_Man was making the specific point that not everyone has access to every single book (and perhaps a more general point that people want to wear armor because it fits traditional concepts, as opposed to twistcloth.)

Yeah, but he did not actually say anything about not having the books, instead he proclaimed ignorance of the locations of the element of the items (and presumably also claimed an inability to search the internet).

By doing the internet search portion for him he can now better state his position as "Not everyone has every book." if that is what he really means.

Edit: I neglected to mention that there is also the possibility that he was attempting to give the example that not everyone has the breadth of knowledge to know about the existence of ACF 0% armor options. However, that is also addressed by demonstrating the ease with which knowledge can be acquired by asking a simple question.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, but he did not actually say anything about not having the books, instead he proclaimed ignorance of the locations of the element of the items (and presumably also claimed an inability to search the internet).

By doing the internet search portion for him he can now better state his position as "Not everyone has every book." if that is what he really means.

Edit: I neglected to mention that there is also the possibility that he was attempting to give the example that not everyone has the breadth of knowledge to know about the existence of ACF 0% armor options. However, that is also addressed by demonstrating the ease with which knowledge can be acquired by asking a simple question.

It wasn't insulting or boorish, and plenty of people make implied points through humor. I don't see the problem here. :smallconfused:

[Particle_Man]

There is also the point that not every DM even allows every book, but most allow core books.

Also, is it legit to mention "search the internet" for stuff that is not OGL?

[AstralFire]

Also, is it legit to mention "search the internet" for stuff that is not OGL?

"Search the internet" could be quite reasonably (and I think was intended to be) parsed as "search the internet to find out what books they are from."

[MonochromeTiger]

There is also the point that not every DM even allows every book, but most allow core books.

Also, is it legit to mention "search the internet" for stuff that is not OGL?

the internet is ALWAYS a valid source of information...unless it's wrong.. or not open source... or you're told not to use it as a source of information... ok barring the times when it's legally, morally, or logically wrong the internet is valid...so never.

[Ansem]

Psioncs > Magic, why?
Better scaling, more powerful equivalent.
Dispel and flight as Psionics are much MUCH more powerful than their spell counterparts.

[olentu]

It wasn't insulting or boorish, and plenty of people make implied points through humor. I don't see the problem here. :smallconfused:

Yeah, so are you talking about my original response to Particle_Man's post or the later response to your post.


There is also the point that not every DM even allows every book, but most allow core books.

Also, is it legit to mention "search the internet" for stuff that is not OGL?

Yeah, as AstralFire correctly interpreted it was about using the internet to find out the name of the book the things were in and not anything else. It shifts the roadblock from not knowing what books the things are in to not having the books available for whatever reason (lack of the actual book, DM ban, or whatever).

[Story]

Psioncs > Magic, why?
Better scaling, more powerful equivalent.
Dispel and flight as Psionics are much MUCH more powerful than their spell counterparts.

Better scaling? One of the main disadvantages of psionics is that your powers don't scale for free.

[Phelix-Mu]

Better scaling? One of the main disadvantages of psionics is that your powers don't scale for free.

Except some of them do (largely by having a competitive base damage. Not all, mind you. But the damage scaling isn't actually too far off sorcerer when you look at the low-op end of things.

But blasting is hardly the benchmark by which we measure the awesome powers of manifester/spellcaster. Who cares how much damage the energy ball did to the enemies? You don't care, because you just mind switched with the BBEG's head of security while your astral construct cleans up the mooks, and now you can silently dismantle all his defensive from behind the scenes before mining the ceiling of his loo with gallons of contact poison.

[AstralFire]

Except some of them do. Not all, mind you. But the damage scaling isn't actually too far off sorcerer when you look at the low-op end of things. But blasting is hardly the benchmark by which we measure the awesome powers of manifester/spellcaster. Who cares how much damage the energy ball did to the enemies? You don't care, because you just mind switched with the BBEG's head of security while your astral construct cleans up the mooks, and now you can silently dismantle all his defensive from behind the scenes before mining the ceiling of his loo with gallons of contact poison.

I care because energy ball's pretty damn cool. I'm only half-joking.

Anyway, I wanted to say that this post reminds of the Old Spice Guy. The Old Psy Guy, I'd say, except now people will think of PSY.

"How much damage did that energy ball do? Roll the dice. Look down, look up, who cares? You've made a giant monster out of psychic energy. But you're not there anymore. You've taken over Mr. Killum's mind. There's a war going on outside. The guards need Killum's help. But Killum's not going to help them. He's going to help you. Bonus: Free loot!"

[Story]

Particle_Man was making the specific point that not everyone has access to every single book (and perhaps a more general point that people want to wear armor because it fits traditional concepts, as opposed to twistcloth.)

I guess this is just one of those things that differs from group to group. In my group, having equipment from a dozen different splatbooks is normal. My current armor is in fact +1 Soulfire Githcraft Gnome Twist Cloth. (Soulfire's from BoED if you were wondering)

[Phelix-Mu]

And that is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Yes, the wizard can accomplish similar things and countless others, but it requires a bit more confidence in your system mastery to waltz around with the best spell selection all of the time (or counting on some way to allow time to fill unfilled spell slots).

Psionics has, as someone else said, a slightly lower floor for optimization, and that can be really helpful at lower levels.

Also, as a huge fan of skills, the psions have a better skill list, especially when one pairs the psionic discipline to the kind of flavor/role the character would be filling in the party. Heck, a couple of them even get UPD, I think, and with the MiC ruling on psionic items, that's nothing to sniff at.

[AstralFire]

I guess this is just one of those things that differs from group to group. In my group, having equipment from a dozen different splatbooks is normal. My current armor is in fact +1 Soulfire Githcraft Gnome Twist Cloth. (Soulfire's from BoED if you were wondering)

The BoED is one of my favorite books (I ignore the weak pretensions at being a serious philosophical treatise and treat it as "treasure trove of looking really damn shiny goodguy heroing build options") and I actually have personally employed Twistcloth... for characters which it thematically fit. But it's not appropriate for all character concepts, especially if you were really looking forward to being a dude wearing heavy, clanky armor that benefits you overall but still restricts your mobility.

As a broader point, I always get much more enjoyment out of homebrewing things that work rather than assembling something out of many small parts. If I have to reference more than three or four non-SRD books for a build, I usually stop and ask myself if it could be done another way, with more even progression, so that I don't get significant "bumps" in competency. I don't begrudge people who prefer to scour books, though, at least as long as I'm confident that I won't be the one having to reference six or seven books to check a rule.

The personal upshot of this style is that I feel more free to alter my development in response to the campaign, whereas with a build planned in advance with heavy detail, I feel 'locked in' for a payoff.