Scoundrel Knew All Along [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

CletusMusashi

2013-11-21, 12:43 PM

Back in Cliffport, he presented himself to Elan as some kind of grand eccentric who was just randomly helping out someone he liked. And, sure, there is a certain level of that tendency in his personality. But with Elan, there was another motive as well.

Julio Scoundrel is an enemy of Tarquin.

Multiple characters have noticed the strong physical resemblance between Elan and his father.

In his dealings with Tarquin, it is not improbable that he would also have met Nale. This would make recognizing Elan as a member of Tarquin's family even easier.

No one who has met Nale would question the fact that, if he had a good twin, Nale would have a ridiculously complicated plot directed against that good twin.

Therefore, I believe Scoundrel quickly surmised that Elan was Tarquin's good son, and therefore was narratively destined to eventually shake things up in The Empire.

Shale

2013-11-21, 12:44 PM

It certainly seems likely. I assumed at first that he'd simply never seen Tarquin without a helmet, but now that seems...highly unlikely, let's say.

Tiiba

2013-11-21, 12:51 PM

NerdyKris

2013-11-21, 12:54 PM

King of Nowhere

2013-11-21, 12:55 PM

physical similarity would not be enough, but when elan described his situation, julio's genre-savyness may have recognized him as the obligatory good twin of nale. it is possible. the only thing that can confirm it or not is word of god

AKA_Bait

2013-11-21, 01:01 PM

This makes more sense than I expected, but it doesn't explain why he would conceal this knowledge from Elan. He did not show any sign of recognizing Nale's name when Elan met him, and dropped no hints, overt or mysterious, that he had any connection to a desert tyrant. He might have all sorts of genre-savvy motives, but a portentous "your face looks familiar" wouldn't be a stretch.

I think it's possible that he never met Nale, or at least never did once Nale was an adult running his own party. I say that because he didn't recognize Thog either.

As has been said elsewhere, though, it's entirely possible that both Elan and Julio were aware of the connection but avoided "becoming aware" for dramatic purposes.

Synesthesy

2013-11-21, 01:13 PM

In a stick world, even from the inside of a stick world, talking about "phisical similarity" is not that usefull :P

However, maybe Julio has met Elan's mother in past... And then Elan himself.

oonker

2013-11-21, 01:16 PM

I believe Julio recognized Elan, but did not say a word in order for Elan to have a big climatic revelation when finally meeting his father.

He helped Elan for 2 reasons:

1 - he really got impressed with Elan
2 - being a good mentor for Elan would help him spit it in the face of Tarquin later on.

Fish

2013-11-21, 01:18 PM

This makes more sense than I expected, but it doesn't explain why he would conceal this knowledge from Elan. "
First blood: Julio!

We've seen Elan deliberately pretend not to believe something he knew narratively to be true: that Nale lived. Why could not Scoundrél do the same?

Jay R

2013-11-21, 01:30 PM

This makes more sense than I expected, but it doesn't explain why he would conceal this knowledge from Elan.

Oh, that I understand. See, by not telling us, it increases the potential for dramatic tension should they ever encounter each other again later in the story. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Ramien

2013-11-21, 05:20 PM

At first I figured "He definitely recognized Elan and that's why he helped."

Now though, with the revelation that he crashes Tarquin's weddings and helps "rescue" his wives, I wonder how deep his connection to Elan really is. Was he involved in Elan's mother's leaving Tarquin? If so, why was Nale left behind? Children don't have alignments. Nale was an innocent when he and Elan were split up. (No, hitting his brother on the head doesn't count as an evil act)

I'm definitely seeing a lot of evidence for a very exciting prequel book about the Tarquin family.

Julio Scoundrél doesn't seem like the type to figure into divorce proceedings - directly, anyways. Even if he had, it's likely that letting Tarquin keep Nale would have been the only thing keeping Elan's mom safe. Tarquin can (and has) always find another wife, but twin sons are too good a narrative device to pass up easily.

Silverionmox

2013-11-21, 06:02 PM

Scoundrel asked Elan how he was planning to pay for the drinks, and only after "30 ft. per round movement rate", he was sympathetic rather than curious. He may or may not have drawn conclusions from the similarity with Tarquin, but in any case someone as chaotic as Elan was bound to annoy Tarquin at some point in the future, if there happened tot be family ties.

mimhoff

2013-11-21, 06:12 PM

Clistenes

2013-11-21, 06:55 PM

This makes more sense than I expected, but it doesn't explain why he would conceal this knowledge from Elan. He did not show any sign of recognizing Nale's name when Elan met him, and dropped no hints, overt or mysterious, that he had any connection to a desert tyrant. He might have all sorts of genre-savvy motives, but a portentous "your face looks familiar" wouldn't be a stretch.

It's easy: Dramatic tension.

Elan knew in advance that they would blow Girard's Gate, and didn't tell anybody, because he didn't want to spoil it.

Elan knew that Nale would attack him while he was a guest at Tarquin's, and he pretended not to know.

Elan almost didn't tell Haley about Therkla, with the express purpose of provoking a dramatic crisis in their relationship

...etc.

Scoundrél has a knowledge of narrative much like Elan and Tarquin, so he didn't want to spoil whatever shocking surprise the story had in reserve for Elan.

AstralFire

2013-11-21, 07:06 PM

I gotta say, while it's a consistent part of the theme, I would rather Julio say he withheld recognition because he wasn't sure, rather than to heighten the narrative tension. Possibly because I am slightly on the fence about this whole series of events, personally.

Jay R

2013-11-21, 07:52 PM

Bear in mind that when you ask why Julio didn't reveal to Elan that he knew Tarquin, you are really asking why Rich didn't give away a crucial plot point 300 strips before the story called for the audience to see the big reveal.

dtilque

2013-11-21, 08:24 PM

Megsie

2013-11-21, 08:31 PM

That's the meta-reason. Everyone else is looking for the in-comic reason.

Bearing in mind that when dealing with any (let alone all) of Julio, Tarquin, and Elan the meta reason stands a good chance of also being the in-comic reason. My money is on dramatic tension.

AutomatedTeller

2013-11-21, 08:35 PM

What I don't get is: it took the mechane three days to get from cliffport to azure city. It took it 1 day to get to the order - why was it on this side of the world in the first place?

NerdyKris

2013-11-21, 08:37 PM

What I don't get is: it took the mechane three days to get from cliffport to azure city. It took it 1 day to get to the order - why was it on this side of the world in the first place?

It's been over a year since then. Why wouldn't he be on the western continent?

Also we know that he's crashed multiple weddings. He probably went to the western continent to screw with local warlords.

Evandar

2013-11-21, 09:41 PM

NerdyKris

2013-11-21, 09:59 PM

Someone pointed out that Tarquin was about to get engaged to what'shername, the chick whose husband he had killed by dragoons, giving Julio a reason to be in the area.

And in any event, the Mechane travels at the speed of the plot.

She already escaped the same night, when Elan released her. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html)

A_Man

2013-11-21, 10:37 PM

Kornaki

2013-11-21, 11:01 PM

She already escaped the same night, when Elan released her. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html)

Yes, but Tarquin seems like the kind of guy who would have announced the wedding very publicly, and told nobody that she escaped later.

Tiiba

2013-11-21, 11:33 PM

I really like this idea, especially considering how Julio Said it would be better if Élan would not know what a padawan. With this section with so many star wars quotes, it's amusing to see the original buildup. ^_^

Now that you mention it... I guess that means that Elan must've seen the movies between that strip and the one where he recognized and appreciated the phrase "I am your father!"

Ramien

2013-11-21, 11:34 PM

Now that you mention it... I guess that means that Elan must've seen the movies between that strip and the one where he recognized and appreciated the phrase "I am your father!"

Or it means he just saw the ones that mattered.

Amphiox

2013-11-21, 11:53 PM

She already escaped the same night, when Elan released her. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html)

Tarquin could have recaptured her off-screen....

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-22, 12:20 AM

Perhaps Elan was conceived by the midichlorians.

*Runs*

JustIgnoreMe

2013-11-22, 07:24 AM

Now though, with the revelation that he crashes Tarquin's weddings and helps "rescue" his wives, I wonder how deep his connection to Elan really is. Was he involved in Elan's mother's leaving Tarquin? If so, why was Nale left behind? Children don't have alignments. Nale was an innocent when he and Elan were split up. (No, hitting his brother on the head doesn't count as an evil act)
If I remember right, the only explanation we have states that they agreed to each take one of the children. It wasn't a question of Nale getting left behind: there was a court process involved.

Copperdragon

2013-11-22, 07:34 AM

I think the best reason to assume Elan was recognized, if not at the beginning, at latest on the ship, is the rapier.
Scoundrel has a +3 Keen Rapier that was his for all the time, and then he gives it to Elan after two days? If he knew that Elan was Tarquin's son he really had to assume Elan would meet him one day. He surely had found out Elan has a good heart.

Scoundrel could not decide whom of his real children to give the weapon but it like takes him one or two days to figure it's best given to Elan... Scoundrel did not know about his late rinvolvement in all this (being an older mentor and stuff...), but he surely could count on "Tarquin's Good Son" was going to face his father one day...

Joe the Rat

2013-11-22, 09:14 AM

The Wise Old Mentor is supposed to conceal really important information like that. Revealing he knew Elan's father - who is established as being alive and conquering kingdoms in the Western Lands - would spoil a really good dramatic reveal.

On the other hand...

"You knew my father?"
"Yes. He was a pupil of mine, strong with the ways of the Narrative, until he betrayed me and turned to Lawful."
"You mean Evil."
"No, I mean Lawful."
"Oh."

Perhaps Elan was conceived by the midichlorians.

*Runs*Silly Psion, we know how Elan was conceived. (No, it isn't bonus content in one of the books. Stop looking.)

Now Tarquin, on the other hand...

AKA_Bait

2013-11-22, 10:43 AM

AstralFire

2013-11-22, 10:47 AM

Michaeler

2013-11-22, 12:24 PM

So... he was running out of ways to rescue Tarquin's bride, so he manipulated Elan into freeing the latest one?

That works.

Kalrany

2013-11-22, 12:43 PM

What I don't get is: it took the mechane three days to get from cliffport to azure city. It took it 1 day to get to the order - why was it on this side of the world in the first place?

While speed of plot works, you could also say that Julio "had a feeling" and so was already in the neighborhood.

ChaosArchon

2013-11-22, 01:12 PM

"You knew my father?"
"Yes. He was a pupil of mine, strong with the ways of the Narrative, until he betrayed me and turned to Lawful."
"You mean Evil."
"No, I mean Lawful."
"Oh."

Haha, I wish he had foreshadowed Tarquin like this :P

Amphiox

2013-11-22, 01:14 PM

While speed of plot works, you could also say that Julio "had a feeling" and so was already in the neighborhood.

Another possibility?

Trade winds.

For a wind-driven vehicle, A to B and X to Y being the same distance does not necessarily mean the respective journeys will take the same amount of time.

Snails

2013-11-22, 01:41 PM

I think it is likely that Julio immediately guessed who Elan's father was based on appearance -- he suspected, but did not know. Then the initial reason for chatting Elan up would have been to get chance to assess Elan more carefully. Once got to know Elan, Julio would see him for a natural ally against Tarquin, so offering training seemed like a good idea.

Snails

2013-11-22, 01:45 PM

Another possibility?

Trade winds.

For a wind-driven vehicle, A to B and X to Y being the same distance does not necessarily mean the respective journeys will take the same amount of time.

Very good point.

If the Mechane is capable of 30mph on a windless day, the difference between a 20mph headwind and a 20mph tailwind is a factor of 5X (50mph vs. 10mph groundspeed). A more modest wind of 15mph would be a factor of 3x (45pmh vs. 15mph groundspeed). Even a paltry 10mph wind would be a factor of 2X (40mph vs 20mph groundspeed).

David Argall

2013-11-22, 02:07 PM

I wonder how much was planned at the time, and how much was made-up after Julio's appearance.

Hard to say. He was thinking of some sort of meeting from almost as soon as Tarquin was revealed as Elan's dad. But we know that other parts of the plot have seen major change barely before they were posted. About all we can really say is that he did not accidentally paint himself into a corner, he marched into it with eyes open.

Another possibility?

Trade winds.

For a wind-driven vehicle, A to B and X to Y being the same distance does not necessarily mean the respective journeys will take the same amount of time.
Our OOTS airships are zeppelin-modeled, which means their speed is only partly dependent on the wind, and Scoundrel still has to be somewhere close to Windy Canyon. He can't have been in locations he normally haunted.

The idea that he had come by to interfere with Tarquin's wedding is a stretch that really requires not looking too closely [He clearly did not interfere with all.] and looks like an idea put in casually or at the last minute. Still, it is some excuse.

AKA_Bait

2013-11-22, 02:24 PM

Our OOTS airships are zeppelin-modeled, which means their speed is only partly dependent on the wind, and Scoundrel still has to be somewhere close to Windy Canyon. He can't have been in locations he normally haunted.

The idea that he had come by to interfere with Tarquin's wedding is a stretch that really requires not looking too closely [He clearly did not interfere with all.] and looks like an idea put in casually or at the last minute. Still, it is some excuse.

I don't know why folks are worried about this. Arriving at the right place in the nick of time is a Dashing Swordsman class feature.

konradknox

2013-11-22, 02:42 PM

I would indeed love if Giant could chime in on this one. Did Julio know Elan to be Tarquin's offspring the moment he saw him at that bar?

ChristianSt

2013-11-22, 03:04 PM

I wonder how much was planned at the time, and how much was made-up after Julio's appearance.

Good serial writing tends to have a solid mixture of both. I would be very surprised if the current concept of Tarquin, as well as Nale's death on the Western Continent didn't arise at least in part as a reaction to the constant "oh no, THIS joke of an enemy again?" every time Nale appeared.

I would indeed love if Giant could chime in on this one. Did Julio know Elan to be Tarquin's offspring the moment he saw him at that bar?

I think it was planned from the beginning (or at least at the beginning in Cliffport).

After hearing that Vampire!Durkola even pre-dates the actual plot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15709954#post15709954), I think it is a valid assumption that it was planned that Julio will return some day (looking back at his first appearance it is really easy to read into it that he thought that Elan is Tarquin's son).

I hope (and think) that the Book 5 commentary will tell us how some of this was planned (And from what has happened in this book, I think it could be by far the most awesome commentary up to date)

Ramien

2013-11-22, 03:31 PM

While speed of plot works, you could also say that Julio "had a feeling" and so was already in the neighborhood.

As has been pointed out, Tarquin was also planning on getting married again to an unwilling bride. Julio Scoundrél may also have been in the area again getting his puns ready.

Amphiox

2013-11-22, 10:07 PM

Our OOTS airships are zeppelin-modeled, which means their speed is only partly dependent on the wind,

And that partly is all that is necessary for my speculation about trade winds to work.

and Scoundrel still has to be somewhere close to Windy Canyon. He can't have been in locations he normally haunted.

How do you, David Argall, know with such confidence what are and are not the locations Julio Scoundrel normally haunts?

Windy Canyon actually has many advantages that make a habitual foe of Tarquin consider a useful place to use as a base of operations.

David Argall

2013-11-22, 11:46 PM

And that partly is all that is necessary for my speculation about trade winds to work.
We are talking about an ocean here. Tarquin has a base on one side of it, and even with favorable winds, will take a very long time to get to the far side. The idea of crossing in less than a day is just not on the table.

How do you know with such confidence what are and are not the locations Julio Scoundrel normally haunts?
The text puts him in one continent, and then has him show familiarity with other cities on the continent. He knows how long it will take his ship to go from Cliffport to Azure City, implying several runs there, which places his base in that area. And while he may change it at times, a pirate has a stable base of operations. He does not migrate from continent to continent and back.

Windy Canyon actually has many advantages that make a habitual foe of Tarquin consider a useful place to use as a base of operations.
What are they? Windy Conyon is days away from the city, making it hard to keep track of what Tarquin is up to, and creating a risk of being spotted every time you head to the city. in addition, the locals are hostile. Our illusionists would not want to be open in their hostility, or even in their existence, but they have a huge number of ways to make visitors decide this is a bad location, and every interest in getting them to move on.

Amphiox

2013-11-23, 12:27 AM

We are talking about an ocean here. Tarquin has a base on one side of it, and even with favorable winds, will take a very long time to get to the far side. The idea of crossing in less than a day is just not on the table.

You seem very certain of your geography in the calculation of plausible travel times within a fictional world whose very size has not been clearly defined (except for the fact that it, like the vast majority of fantasy fictional worlds, is much, much, much, much smaller than real-life earth).

The text puts him in one continent, and then has him show familiarity with other cities on the continent.

Irrelevant.

He knows how long it will take his ship to go from Cliffport to Azure City, implying several runs there, which places his base in that area.

Rather presumptious of you to assume, with no evidence of any kind whatsoever, that he can and must have only one base.

And while he may change it at times, a pirate has a stable base of operations. He does not migrate from continent to continent and back.

By what magical mind-reading capacity do you presume to know with such certainty what Scoundrel does not do?

Megsie

2013-11-23, 12:45 AM

The text puts him in one continent, and then has him show familiarity with other cities on the continent. He knows how long it will take his ship to go from Cliffport to Azure City, implying several runs there, which places his base in that area. And while he may change it at times, a pirate has a stable base of operations. He does not migrate from continent to continent and back.

Wrong.

Per comic 725 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), Tarquin has been on the Western Continent since Elan was young, meaning that nearly all his weddings took place on the Western Continent. Julio's various rescues must, then, have taken place on the Western Continent, so Julio either relocated from one to the other, or make regular trips back and forth.

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-23, 06:04 AM

Furthermore, I'd assume that whole Mummy Queen bit took place on the western continent, didn't it?

hamishspence

2013-11-23, 06:08 AM

Furthermore, I'd assume that whole Mummy Queen bit took place on the western continent, didn't it?

The Giant:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16471412&postcount=13

It's not an out-and-out statement that it took place there, in the last 15 years- but it does seem to be strongly implied.

Jay R

2013-11-23, 01:03 PM

What I don't get is: it took the mechane three days to get from cliffport to azure city. It took it 1 day to get to the order - why was it on this side of the world in the first place?

He has just said that he crashes Tarquin's weddings to save the bride, and we know that Tarquin is planning to marry somebody who wished to be saved from him.

Of course he's nearby.

David Argall

2013-11-23, 01:58 PM

Irrelevant.
The rules of logic require this charge be supported or explained. The one word charge can be made about anything, no matter how relevant or irrelevant. So it must be disregarded unless one shows how it is irrelevant.
And the basic presumption is that seeing X at location A is relevant evidence about where X might be at any other time. It may be weak evidence, but it will be relevant in a great many cases.

Rather presumptious of you to assume, with no evidence of any kind whatsoever, that he can and must have only one base.
The very ordinary phrase "his base" tells us that is the default. While there may be plenty of exceptions, the routine case is that one has one and only one base. We thus presume Scoundrel has one base until we find evidence to the contrary.
And there are strong reasons for having only the one base. Bases are expensive to create, and one wants to be close to customers and able to reach [reluctant in our case] suppliers. Trying to sell hot goods in a random city is going to lead to low prices compared to finding one city where the locals overlook irregular acquisition of cargo. On the other end, you go where the ducks are. Vulnerable ships will be concentrated in certain areas, and so thus are the pirates. Again, one base is going to be the plan unless we can show strong reason for another number. [Not impossible. Many ancient kings regularly moved from castle to castle because it allowed for a larger court. They ate all the food at castle A in, say, a month, and then left for castle B while the locals had a year to restock and repair. So it can happen, tho this particular reason would not apply to Scoundrel since a pirate ship with a larger crew has to split any loot more ways and thus keeps its size down to just bigger than that of merchants, who want just enough crew to operate the ship. So our default remains one base.]

By what magical mind-reading capacity do you presume to know with such certainty what Scoundrel does not do?
Don't need any magic. We know Scoundrel's main activities are piracy & seduction of rich women. Both are effectively urban activities. The Western Continent is mostly empty space, with little opportunity for either. There is just much less space for him to operate there. Add in that we see him on the main continent and he shows major activity there, and we can conclude that he should be nowhere near the Western Continent.

Wrong.

Per comic 725, Tarquin has been on the Western Continent since Elan was young, meaning that nearly all his weddings took place on the Western Continent. Julio's various rescues must, then, have taken place on the Western Continent, so Julio either relocated from one to the other, or make regular trips back and forth.
Now the idea of Scoundrel regularly rescuing brides is one of those things that sounds good at a quick look, but makes little sense at a closer look. Once or twice he can manage it, but the more we add, the more this becomes story flaw. Indeed, we are given comments that this only happened a few times, years apart. Quite often enough to annoy Tarquin of course, but still only rarely. This becomes no more than one of the alternatives of what to do on an annual vacation. We need only assume some low grade spy work [and a royal wedding takes long preparation well in advance] and a slow period in piracy [which is often a seasonal business].
By contrast, putting him on the Western Continent puts him not only in inferior territory, but closer to lots of bounty hunters who would be eager for that reward. Posters that never reach people who see him are one thing. Having every he meets aware of all that gold, quite another. That is one major reason that real world Scoundrels/Robin Hoods have careers of less than 3 years.
Again, the less Scoundrel sees of the Western Continent, the less strain on the story.

hamishspence

2013-11-23, 04:33 PM

What about the possibility that Julio Scoundrel has a mobile base- specifically, his ship, and travels widely across the OoTS world, with no long-term preferred areas?

Kalrany

2013-11-23, 05:32 PM

What about the possibility that Julio Scoundrel has a mobile base- specifically, his ship, and travels widely across the OoTS world, with no long-term preferred areas?

This was my assumption from the beginning. (Guess the saying is true... You know what happends when you assume...)

David Argall

2013-11-23, 08:58 PM

What about the possibility that Julio Scoundrel has a mobile base- specifically, his ship, and travels widely across the OoTS world, with no long-term preferred areas?
Already covered. Scoundrel needs to be close to his customers [Greysky?] and close to his victims [maybe the Cliffport-Azure City run]. The actual base being mobile does not allow him to be far away from either.
Hunting up another city to sell his loot in is costly, and increases his chance of being caught. Given his habit of seducing rich ladies, Scoundrel might travel around more than most, but the longer he travels to dispose of the goodies, the higher his costs.
And his victims also limit him. Most of that water is empty. No treasure. He has to find the places where there is a heavy concentration of shipping. Maybe where air currents really speed up travel, or narrow channels that cut hundreds of miles off the journey. So even with a mobile base, he stays in a very small range.

CletusMusashi

2013-11-24, 12:59 AM

There's plenty of non-business reasons he could have for occasionally flying west. Perhaps a crew member or two have family there.

Skamandros

2013-11-24, 01:25 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html

Panel 8: Julio recognizes Elan.

Panel 14: Julio decides to tell Elan about his father.

Panel 17: Julio reconsiders.

hamishspence

2013-11-24, 06:07 AM

Already covered. Scoundrel needs to be close to his customers [Greysky?] and close to his victims [maybe the Cliffport-Azure City run]. The actual base being mobile does not allow him to be far away from either.

Again- what's so implausible about the possibility that Julio Scoundrel has multiple "runs" that he preys on, and multiple cities that he sells to- and every time he stirs up enough outrage that a fleet is sent after him- he leaves that one "run" alone, and goes to prey on a different one?

When you're as high level as he's implied to be- going international is kind of to be expected (the next step would be going interplanar, and operating all across the Planes rather than all across the World).

David Argall

2013-11-24, 02:05 PM

Again- what's so implausible about the possibility that Julio Scoundrel has multiple "runs" that he preys on, and multiple cities that he sells to- and every time he stirs up enough outrage that a fleet is sent after him- he leaves that one "run" alone, and goes to prey on a different one?
How often do you change jobs? For most of us, the answer is "rarely", and "more often than I want". For most of us, we show up at one place daily for years on end, and then start showing up at a different place for more years. And we like it that way, at least well enough that we don't usually look for another job until we are in danger of losing the one we have.
There are lots of exceptions, but they are mostly exceptions in detail. Our high level salesman might travel to a hundred cities, but he still keeps coming back to that one base.
Scoundrel is just another difference in detail. He has found variations of "all ship pass within sight of Mt. Obvious to make sure they are on course" and so he is much better off near Mt. Obvious than anywhere else and is there for long periods of time. But it is work to find that Mt. Obvious is used by all those ships, and finding other Mt. Obviouses is work he doesn't need to do, and is unlikely to.
He gets chased off by a fleet or something? Or sure, that can happen, just like you get fired or quit. But note our Robin Hood and Sherwood forest. He is not going to move often or far in most cases because it is too much bother, and when he does, he creates the same situation at another Mt. Obvious. It is going to be very rare for him to have a dozen such places and establish any sort of rotation.

When you're as high level as he's implied to be- going international is kind of to be expected (the next step would be going interplanar, and operating all across the Planes rather than all across the World).
This doesn't really change much. Instead of lurking around "Mt. Obvious", he lurks around "Mars". In neither case does he just move around at random hoping for targets. He goes to where the targets are, and staying near Windy Canyon looks like a bad idea.

Sir_Dr_D

2013-11-24, 04:28 PM

It would make sense if Scoundrel is on the western continent a lot of the time. It is a chaotic region that is in constant need of heroes, and his arch nemesis is there.

Julio could have been in Cliffport because of Nale. Nale had been causing a rukus for quite a while. Scoundrel may have wanted to find out what the son of his arch nemesis was up to.

Then he meets Elan, and immidiatly decides he wants to help him. He makes the meeting seem like it happend by chance. I think he knew who Elan was. But would you want to be the one who explains to someone as naive childlike and optomistic as Elan how Elans father is evil and you are an enemy of his father? Elan would have not been ready to hear it, and would have had lots of questions. It would have been simpler to not say anything.

Jay R

2013-11-24, 06:16 PM

But would you want to be the one who explains to someone as naive childlike and optomistic as Elan how Elans father is evil and you are an enemy of his father?

Even if Julio wanted to, he wouldn't succeed. Not without 200-foot flaming letters.

hamishspence

2013-11-25, 02:16 AM

But note our Robin Hood and Sherwood forest. He is not going to move often or far in most cases because it is too much bother, and when he does, he creates the same situation at another Mt. Obvious.

Robin Hood crops up in legend all over England. Him being connected to Sherwood was the exception, not the rule- Barnsdale Forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnsdale_Forest) is thought to be a more likely "stomping ground" for him.

And Robin didn't have an airship.

The Bandits of Wooden Forest:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html

are a closer parallel to Robin Hood and his gang.

David Argall

2013-11-25, 11:40 AM

Robin Hood crops up in legend all over England. Him being connected to Sherwood was the exception, not the rule- Barnsdale Forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnsdale_Forest) is thought to be a more likely "stomping ground" for him.

And Robin didn't have an airship.
Unimportant. In either case one has to "go where the ducks are", and that confines our thief to a relatively small area, which here means Scoundrel should only rarely be near Tarquin.

The Bandits of Wooden Forest:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0151.html

are a closer parallel to Robin Hood and his gang.
Not really. The focus of the tales of Robin Hood, and Scoundrel, is on daring deeds, not on the actual robbery. Thus we have tales of Robin getting in the sheriff's face. The bandits of Wooden Forest and just threats. They serve a far different purpose than Scoundrel or Hood.

Amphiox

2013-11-25, 11:45 AM

Unimportant.

Only in your own imagination.

Amphiox

2013-11-25, 11:49 AM

Already covered. Scoundrel needs to be close to his customers [Greysky?] and close to his victims [maybe the Cliffport-Azure City run]. The actual base being mobile does not allow him to be far away from either.

There you go again, making unfounded assumptions unsupported in the narrative out of nothing more than thin air and your own preconceived prejudices.

How do you know Scoundrel's customers are primarily in Greysky? How do you know his main victims are in Cliffport-Azure City?

In fact the narrative directly contradicts you. There is more evidence that among Scoundrel's various haunts, Tarquin's domains are more important to him than Greysky/Cliffport/Azure City.

ChristianSt

2013-11-25, 11:50 AM

Unimportant. In either case one has to "go where the ducks are", and that confines our thief to a relatively small area, which here means Scoundrel should only rarely be near Tarquin.

On what evidence do you take the fact he should be rarely near Tarquin? Heck we have probably more evidence that he normally IS near Tarquin:
We know he crushed multiple weddings vs. the one occurrence that shows him traveling from Cliffport to Azure City.

hamishspence

2013-11-25, 01:23 PM

Tarquin's territory has airships - the "BadYear" that we saw above the gladiatorial arenas:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html

exactly the sort of prey a very specialist bandit- a "Sky Pirate", would prey on.

And if we see Scoundrel as a high level adventurer, what with his prestige class- travelling all over is exactly what high level adventurers do.

Shale

2013-11-25, 01:51 PM

Well, I can't imagine why a pirate would ever hang around a country whose leader keeps hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of gp worth of magic items around on any given day.

hamishspence

2013-11-25, 02:19 PM

The bandits of Wooden Forest and just threats. They serve a far different purpose than Scoundrel or Hood.

That's because they play a different role in the Order's story.

"Preying on the wealthy & universally despised" however, fits the earliest Robin Hood stories.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html

Giving to the needy was somewhat less important- Robin loans money to a needy knight, then cancels the loan after robbing the person that the needy knight owed money to in the first place.

it's only later that he was portrayed as giving a lot to the poor.

David Argall

2013-11-26, 02:51 AM

There you go again, making unfounded assumptions unsupported in the narrative out of nothing more than thin air and your own preconceived prejudices.

How do you know Scoundrel's customers are primarily in Greysky? How do you know his main victims are in Cliffport-Azure City?
No claim is made that they are. The point is merely that Greysky makes a fine port city for pirates, and we know there is Cliffport-Azure City trade, which means something for the pirates to steal. Scoundrel may use both or neither. The point is merely that we can see where he can support himself in the style that a pirate would like to become accompanied to. By contrast, we know of no place he might use for base/r&r/disposal of supplies on the Western Continent. Nor do we know of any trade routes he can plunder.

In fact the narrative directly contradicts you. There is more evidence that among Scoundrel's various haunts, Tarquin's domains are more important to him than Greysky/Cliffport/Azure City.
That is to say tiny vs very tiny. But the argument is based on how a pirate operates. He does not stay in locations where fleets will be hunting him and he is a wanted man. Rather he leaves such a location for one where there are lots of victims and the hunters are not so vigorous.
But all we know about Tarquin's territory is that Scoundrel plays around there. Maybe he in effect takes his annual vacation there. That gives us no idea where Scoundrel spends the other 50 weeks a year. And the idea he spend much of that time in the midst of greedy bounty hunters or tyrants eager to capture him seems dubious. Much safer to do his pirating on another continent and just visit to annoy Tarquin.

Tarquin's territory has airships - the "BadYear" that we saw above the gladiatorial arenas:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0775.html

exactly the sort of prey a very specialist bandit- a "Sky Pirate", would prey on.
Tarquin also has an air force, of unknown size, but quite able to capture/destroy Scoundrel's ship. There are likely air forces on the main continent too, but we don't know of them, and, given Tarquin is warlike, they are likely smaller.
So in its current location, the BadYear is a very bad target. Only when it goes on a long voyage might it be a good target. But we again do not know if there are such long voyages, and in any case can assume more of them on the other continent [which is not mostly desert]. Indeed, we have an airship making such a voyage on the other continent.

And if we see Scoundrel as a high level adventurer, what with his prestige class- travelling all over is exactly what high level adventurers do.
That is what unemployed adventurers, high level or not, do. Once given the job of pirate, Scoundrel gets stuck in one "location". Again, Robin Hood is heavily in one spot and has one chief foe.

Now we can do something of a compromise here. Tarquin was a less serious factor in previous years. He has been expanding his control by 1 or 2 countries a year for maybe 20 years. So 10 years ago, there would maybe 20 more countries around, any one of which could have served as Scoundrel's base. And so Scoundrel could have been close by to harass Tarquin. But as TT took over countries, Scoundrel was eventually forced out and moved to the main continent.
Overall, this is not as satisfactory. Scoundrel was well known on the main continent 20 years ago [TT was apparently also from the main continent. So both Elan's mom and Laurin would seen to have heard of him there.] So it is more likely he started on the main continent and stayed there. Still, it would allow us to put Scoundrel on both continents.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 03:13 AM

That is what unemployed adventurers, high level or not, do. Once given the job of pirate, Scoundrel gets stuck in one "location".

I was not under the impression that Scoundrel was "given the job of pirate" - it seems more like he chooses to do it of his own accord. He's still an adventurer - but one with a source of income that tend to be robbing civilians, rather than dungeon crawling.

Interestingly, he seems to be wanted in Azure City not for piracy per se, but for theft:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html

ChristianSt

2013-11-26, 03:20 AM

For me the "base" from where Julio operates from is most likely: the Mechane.

Sure, from time to time he need supplies, but he is not restricted to Greysky City for shopping.
Why should he have a "normal base" if he has a flying house?

And finding stuff to do outside Greysky City shouldn't be that hard. We don't really know whether his main income even is stealing things. I think it is most likely more adventuring stuff.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 03:23 AM

He does specifically call himself a "sky pirate".

I do agree that, with the Mechane, he's less tied to any one location. Even if it's damaged, if he has magic or skilled craftspeople, he can gain the resources to fix it in the wilderness- and doesn't require a city.

Similarly, he wouldn't necessarily have to put in to an "outlaw city" to fence his valuables, if he's careful.

ChristianSt

2013-11-26, 03:46 AM

He does specifically call himself a "sky pirate".

But that could just be, because "sky pirate" is a more awesome job description than "adventurerer" (especially in an world with more than enough of the latter)

At least considering the informations from SSaDT he does his fair share of adventuring, too.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 06:55 AM

True. Like Haley, he may be a "Freelance Wealth Redistribution Specialist" (as Origin of PCs puts it) that has discovered that adventuring is a money train, and steals more to keep his hand in than as a full-time career.

Jay R

2013-11-26, 09:59 AM

1. We know that Julio appeared in the desert when called.
2. We know that was the plan of the author who created Julio.
3. We know that all aspects of Julio's life are created by Rich for the purposes of this story.
4. Beyond that, we know very little of Julio's life.

It therefore follows that Rich has a far better idea that we can about the likelihood of Julio appearing, and any theory we form about Julio's unshown life that makes it impossible for him to show up in the desert now is simply wrong.

We don't have enough information to know how it's wrong, but we do have enough information to know that it is wrong.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 10:05 AM

David Argall

2013-11-26, 01:10 PM

I was not under the impression that Scoundrel was "given the job of pirate" - it seems more like he chooses to do it of his own accord. He's still an adventurer - but one with a source of income that tend to be robbing civilians, rather than dungeon crawling.
"Given"/"took up"/"assigned"/"assumed" For our immediate purposes, these all mean the same. Scoundrel is doing certain things and to do those things, one has to be in one location, which in our case means not spending a lot of time flying back and forth between continents.

Interestingly, he seems to be wanted in Azure City not for piracy per se, but for theft:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html
Interesting, but not of obvious relevance. Indeed, it would seen to further confirm his ties to the main continent rather than to the Western Continent. [Scoundrel may have robbed all these ladies in one visit-in which case, the girls may be madder about the other women than the jewels-, but it would seem easier to assume several visits to the city, spaced far enough apart for the heat to die down], and thus supporting the idea that Scoundrel has had ties to the main continent for a long time.
Now if we divert to consider the point, there are a number of cases where a known pirate is able to safely walk the streets while a known thief can't. One is distance. The crime often happened far away and the victims were unable to get to the trial. Another is jurisdiction. What is piracy in the view of Cliffport may not be in the view of Azure City [and highly likely isn't in the view of Greysky.]
The case of the privateer might be of special note here. These were pirates given the duty of being pirates against certain victims. While the victims weren't too appreciative of the differences, the lawyers were, and it would be quite possible for pirate/privateer Scoundrel to walk in and out of police stations while thief Scoundrel would have to run and hide.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 01:27 PM

"Given"/"took up"/"assigned"/"assumed" For our immediate purposes, these all mean the same. Scoundrel is doing certain things and to do those things, one has to be in one location, which in our case means not spending a lot of time flying back and forth between continents.

Unless Scoundrel's speciality is robbing the intercontinental shipping routes (if they exist) - airship and sea ship.

Shale

2013-11-26, 01:42 PM

This is just an idea, but maybe he has a habit of raiding ancient undiscovered pyramids, or harassing certain wealthy and annoying dictators of desert empires. Just a theory, though, he definitely hasn't specifically said that he does those things a lot. That would just make this argument stupid.

BaronOfHell

2013-11-26, 02:27 PM

I don't get how it's unlikely Scoundrel is on the Western Continent based on what we don't know.
I choose to believe that trading by sky occurs all over the world. Even if it didn't, Scoundrel is likely a high level adventure, so he's not bound to his profession, and just because the average person likes comfort, we've no means to place Scoundrel as an average individual. Odds are he is more likely not an average guy, hence the rarity of high level adventures, his fame, and his mobile airbase.

Also, I doubt you win fame as a sky pirate if you settle for any single location, btw.

Snails

2013-11-26, 02:28 PM

Again, the less Scoundrel sees of the Western Continent, the less strain on the story.

The story is adequately self-consistent. Your reasons for why you would have written it differently make sense, but suggesting that adequately self-consistent evidence is not evidence is simply a losing argument.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 02:31 PM

I choose to believe that trading by sky occurs all over the world. Even if it didn't, Scoundrel is likely a high level adventure, so he's not bound to his profession, and just because the average person likes comfort, we've no means to place Scoundrel as an average individual. Odds are he is more likely not an average guy, hence the rarity of high level adventures, his fame, and his mobile airbase.

Also, I doubt you win fame as a sky pirate if you settle for any single location, btw.

I wonder how high-end Sky Pirates are usually depicted in fiction?

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-26, 03:08 PM

Maybe Julio just likes traveling, and is capable enough to extract wealth, when necessary, in whatever locale he finds himself in? Pirates are by nature fairly peripatetic, and one with an airship and magic at their disposal is likely to be even more so, since said individual is not constrained to remain on the oceans, etc.

Plus, what's the point of having an airship and a swashbuckling spirit if you don't roam far and wide in search of adventure? Why should he stick to one established route?

David Argall

2013-11-26, 03:22 PM

For me the "base" from where Julio operates from is most likely: the Mechane.

Sure, from time to time he need supplies, but he is not restricted to Greysky City for shopping.
Why should he have a "normal base" if he has a flying house?

I do agree that, with the Mechane, he's less tied to any one location. Even if it's damaged, if he has magic or skilled craftspeople, he can gain the resources to fix it in the wilderness- and doesn't require a city.

Similarly, he wouldn't necessarily have to put in to an "outlaw city" to fence his valuables, if he's careful.
Sure, he "can", and you "can" sleep in Los Angeles, and fly daily to your job in New York. Silly? Yes, but so is the idea of our Pirate randomly cruising around to look for victims, or just trying to sell his loot at a random city. He is just tremendously better off staying at a prime location and selling to buyers he has dealt with before. [It is costly to have to be careful, even when the cost is not in cash.]
Scoundrel is not physically tied to one location, but it is just tremendously superior to deal with just the one location anyway. As a pirate, you want to be where there are lots of ships and that means sticking at certain locations, not just sailing at random. Same sort of thing at shore. You want merchants who will give you good prices, and dealing with random merchants is a poor way to find them.
Magic or skilled craftsmen? Both of these are expensive and you only need them rarely. Much better to hire in the city than to have them idle 11 months of the year.
Our pirate may not work in a cubicle, but he is not a globe-trotter.

hamishspence

2013-11-26, 03:32 PM

Problem with staying in the same location too long- it makes one a Target.

Also:

what's the point of having an airship and a swashbuckling spirit if you don't roam far and wide in search of adventure?

ChristianSt

2013-11-26, 03:37 PM

I wonder how high-end Sky Pirates are usually depicted in fiction?

I don't really know of any Sky Pirates in fiction, but somehow I just needed to think of Mal and the Serinty from Firefly, which imo could function as a nice parallel to Julio and the Mechane:
Mal is also some sort of thief/adventuring travelling with his (space)ship.

Sure, he "can", and you "can" sleep in Los Angeles, and fly daily to your job in New York. Silly? Yes, but so is the idea of our Pirate randomly cruising around to look for victims, or just trying to sell his loot at a random city. He is just tremendously better off staying at a prime location and selling to buyers he has dealt with before. [It is costly to have to be careful, even when the cost is not in cash.]
Scoundrel is not physically tied to one location, but it is just tremendously superior to deal with just the one location anyway. As a pirate, you want to be where there are lots of ships and that means sticking at certain locations, not just sailing at random. Same sort of thing at shore. You want merchants who will give you good prices, and dealing with random merchants is a poor way to find them.
Magic or skilled craftsmen? Both of these are expensive and you only need them rarely. Much better to hire in the city than to have them idle 11 months of the year.
Our pirate may not work in a cubicle, but he is not a globe-trotter.

But it would also be silly to sleep every day in New York when you work three days in Berlin, the next two in London, then going a week to Los Angeles before visiting a friend in Sydney.

And it would be much better to hire said magic and/or skilled craftsmen permanently and take them with the ship. Then you do not need to find some every time you need repairs and can use them in an emergency situation out of town.

So your argument is only valid if we know that Julio is working in the same regions all day long. Which we do not know.
Seeing that Julio seems to be quite independent (and he is surely Chaotic!), I wouldn't bet any money on that theory.

Kalrany

2013-11-26, 03:47 PM

Problem with staying in the same location too long- it makes one a Target.

Plus possible oversaturation of a market. A proprieter wants to make the most money, thereby selling a single piece of The Mummy Queen's tomb in 30 locations will net more than selling 30 pieces at one location. Even if he has 50 more in the hold.

Plus, what's the point of having an airship and a swashbuckling spirit if you don't roam far and wide in search of adventure? Why should he stick to one established route?

Adventure, new places to trade, interesting people to meet and swindle...

Sure, staying in one local might allow you to create some stable contacts, but there comes with that (un)comfortable familarity for your adversaries. Better the local police/watch/guard/etc. never know when you will be there than to know you take your coffee at 9am from the 3rd street vendor each morning, or that you like a drink at the blue fronted bar after each successful sale...

Besides, when your business is being a pain, chances are your "trusted" contacts will remain a bit more trusted when they don't have to deal with the risk of dealing you on a regular basis.

BaronOfHell

2013-11-26, 03:55 PM

But why should he stay at a few ("boring") routes, when currency is not a necessary evil in the world of D&D?

In real life you're forced to try to earn enough so you can live like you wish. In D&D, you can live like you wish and still do any CERTAIN to happen quest if you must/feel like it, no matter where you are. Especially as a high level adventurer, I see no reason why Scoundrel should be locked down by his trade. Rather it allows him to roam freely without much explanation required for him being at any particular location at any particular time, maybe with the exception of finding him in the world inside the rift.. that'd be something.

David Argall

2013-11-27, 12:16 AM

Unless Scoundrel's speciality is robbing the intercontinental shipping routes (if they exist) - airship and sea ship.
The length of the route is an illusion. Most piracy happens in very limited areas, and these area do not expand when the route becomes longer. Rather the piracy largely happens just beyond the range of the navies of the ports involved and on those parts of the route where the shipping is concentrated. The rest of the route, no matter how long, is pretty safe.
Thus in our Possible Cliffport-Azure City run, the pirates would be waiting just outside Cliffport, how far depending on how active the Cliffport navy is thought to be and how greedy the pirate is. Those ships that are not attacked can now scatter with some barely out of sight of the shore and others perhaps 100 miles out to sea. Our pirate can sit between two prizes and never see either one. So few pirates try, and the few that are successful are just lucky, but usually not for long. So the merchants are pretty safe whether the middle part of the voyage is 100 miles or 1000 miles.
But at the end of that middle part, they must round a cape, and the wider they round it, the higher their costs. So they round fairly close and our pirate sitting there has a much better chance of finding a target. Now they might scatter again, but Azure City is not far and they must be on a very precise path, and so the pirates can sit on that path, unless the Azure City navy is active.
There can be all sorts of complications, but the basic result is the same. Huge parts of the route are just about pirate free, and the pirate barely needs to move at all on the parts that are not. Nor does moving help much.
Now the pirate can use speed in the actual combat to keep the prize from escaping, but this is relatively short distance. Compared to the distance between continents, the pirate might as well be in an office.

CletusMusashi

2013-11-27, 12:19 AM

The western continent has a lot of wide open spaces where it is very difficult for a caravan to hide from an airship. He can easily spot targets, catch up, hit them, and retreat, even going back overseas to sell the goods on friendlier ground if he wants to. Forested areas are better for coming down and hiding, but the desert is probably better for swooping down on merchants without losing them.

Snails

2013-11-27, 02:16 AM

Yes, most a long route could easily be pirate free. But there were points in between where routes tended to cluster, because of (1) the need to take on supplies or (2) the convenience of sailing east/west along a specific latitude line to find a landmark, which would give an accurate longitude reference.

It does not really matter. Presumably there are ways of the law finding the pirates, too. The place where the routes cluster are places the law knows where to find pirates.

ChristianSt

2013-11-27, 04:14 AM

The length of the route is an illusion. Most piracy happens in very limited areas, and these area do not expand when the route becomes longer. Rather the piracy largely happens just beyond the range of the navies of the ports involved and on those parts of the route where the shipping is concentrated. The rest of the route, no matter how long, is pretty safe.
Thus in our Possible Cliffport-Azure City run, the pirates would be waiting just outside Cliffport, how far depending on how active the Cliffport navy is thought to be and how greedy the pirate is. Those ships that are not attacked can now scatter with some barely out of sight of the shore and others perhaps 100 miles out to sea. Our pirate can sit between two prizes and never see either one. So few pirates try, and the few that are successful are just lucky, but usually not for long. So the merchants are pretty safe whether the middle part of the voyage is 100 miles or 1000 miles.
But at the end of that middle part, they must round a cape, and the wider they round it, the higher their costs. So they round fairly close and our pirate sitting there has a much better chance of finding a target. Now they might scatter again, but Azure City is not far and they must be on a very precise path, and so the pirates can sit on that path, unless the Azure City navy is active.
There can be all sorts of complications, but the basic result is the same. Huge parts of the route are just about pirate free, and the pirate barely needs to move at all on the parts that are not. Nor does moving help much.
Now the pirate can use speed in the actual combat to keep the prize from escaping, but this is relatively short distance. Compared to the distance between continents, the pirate might as well be in an office.

Exactly how many non-stationary targets Julio has robbed?
From the comic I can't recall to have seen even one. We hear him say that he is wanted in Azure city for theft of jewelry, but we haven't any indication that said heiresses wasn't inside the city. (He even says "heiresses in this town")
So you just make claims with no really evidence.
The only "evidence" for your claim are that hes has an airship (which he can use however he wants) and that he calls himself a "sky pirate" (which could be just a fancy title for "adventurer with an airship")

Before you want to counter: Yes I know they know the Mechane (but that could just because he has a certain reputation as captain of an airship), so it is possible that he did raid other ships, but even then it would most likely be just plain dumb to be too long in any given location: I think a city like Azure City would, after being raided for several months, want to get rid of such a troublesome element to their economic system. So the bounty for stopping him would much likely rise and rise, until someone would stop him.

If he switches places from time to time, the problem gets much easier to manage, because their should be more enough troublesome elements to any place, so that Julio is only one of many.

David Argall

2013-11-27, 04:35 PM

Exactly how many non-stationary targets Julio has robbed?
From the comic I can't recall to have seen even one. We hear him say that he is wanted in Azure city for theft of jewelry, but we haven't any indication that said heiresses wasn't inside the city. (He even says "heiresses in this town")
So you just make claims with no really evidence.
The only "evidence" for your claim are that hes has an airship (which he can use however he wants) and that he calls himself a "sky pirate" (which could be just a fancy title for "adventurer with an airship")
When you have just made objections to a shortage of evidence, it is not a good time to advance a theory that is not only without evidence, but clashes with what little we have.
Sure it could be that Scoundrel has in fact never done any pirate activities, but we not only lack any evidence that he is such a poser, but the evidence we do have says he is a pirate, and scant or not, the very nature of a comic almost demands we accept that claim.
A comic has a major shortage of space and thus has to rule out nearly all of the possibles in order to mention the facts the reader needs to know. Almost completely, what we see is true, or marked as questionable or false. So when Scoundrel is identified as a pirate, the overwhelming conclusion is that he is indeed a pirate, even when the actual evidence is almost entirely lacking. We need actual evidence he is not before we can entertain speculation he is not.

it would most likely be just plain dumb to be too long in any given location: I think a city like Azure City would, after being raided for several months, want to get rid of such a troublesome element to their economic system. So the bounty for stopping him would much likely rise and rise, until someone would stop him.
This indeed is what happened to real Robin Hoods/Scoundrels. One author even estimated they rarely have more than a 3 year career [The first year getting a reputation, the 2nd dodging an increasingly angry government, and being killed, usually in ambush, in the third by someone who had decided that reward has grown too large to resist.
Now the pirate gets to pick up and move, which gives us an excuse to ignore the fact he should have been hung years ago. But he only needs to move every 2-3 years and he would prefer not to move far, or at all. And he would still be pretty much fixed in his new location too.

If he switches places from time to time, the problem gets much easier to manage, because their should be more enough troublesome elements to any place, so that Julio is only one of many.
Of course, but we have pretty much established that these are long time to times, making it still dubious that he would suddenly appear off the Western Continent. Then we have the points that Scoundrel was last seen on the main continent, that there are much greater opportunities there, that he has a determined enemy on the Western Continent... We still end up saying he should not have been within a day of Windy Canyon.

The western continent has a lot of wide open spaces where it is very difficult for a caravan to hide from an airship. He can easily spot targets, catch up, hit them, and retreat, even going back overseas to sell the goods on friendlier ground if he wants to. Forested areas are better for coming down and hiding, but the desert is probably better for swooping down on merchants without losing them.
You can get some idea of why this would not be at all common from the fact that ships use tonnage rather than pounds to measure cargo. A distinctly modest cargo ship of the day could easily hold more that an entire caravan could carry. And the ship would have less guards. So any pirate goes after more pay for less risk and leaves the caravan alone.
[Strictly, there should probably not be air ships and camel caravans in the same world since the air ship can carry so much more. However, if we assume the air ship is rare and very expensive, it's not too much of a stretch.]
We also have to remember a desert is a desert, miles and miles of nothing worth having. There just are not going to be many pirates in any case, and they are likely not getting rich. As a high level Scoundrel would be particularly likely to scorn the desert as small change.

ChristianSt

2013-11-27, 06:32 PM

Sure it could be that Scoundrel has in fact never done any pirate activities, but we not only lack any evidence that he is such a poser, but the evidence we do have says he is a pirate, and scant or not, the very nature of a comic almost demands we accept that claim.
A comic has a major shortage of space and thus has to rule out nearly all of the possibles in order to mention the facts the reader needs to know. Almost completely, what we see is true, or marked as questionable or false. So when Scoundrel is identified as a pirate, the overwhelming conclusion is that he is indeed a pirate, even when the actual evidence is almost entirely lacking. We need actual evidence he is not before we can entertain speculation he is not.
So, if "I'm a sky pirate" is evidence that he is a sky pirate, why isn't "I crashed your previous weddings" and "I did some adventuring stuff in SSaDT (and soon in a Kickstarter story)" evidence that he did something other than pirating?

This indeed is what happened to real Robin Hoods/Scoundrels. One author even estimated they rarely have more than a 3 year career [The first year getting a reputation, the 2nd dodging an increasingly angry government, and being killed, usually in ambush, in the third by someone who had decided that reward has grown too large to resist.
Now the pirate gets to pick up and move, which gives us an excuse to ignore the fact he should have been hung years ago. But he only needs to move every 2-3 years and he would prefer not to move far, or at all. And he would still be pretty much fixed in his new location too.
But what if said pirate WANTS to move?
Being an Chaotic Dashing Swordsman, I don't think that Julio is the type to live in the same plays for several years (I probably would give him a few weeks, tops).

Of course, but we have pretty much established that these are long time to times, making it still dubious that he would suddenly appear off the Western Continent. Then we have the points that Scoundrel was last seen on the main continent, that there are much greater opportunities there, that he has a determined enemy on the Western Continent... We still end up saying he should not have been within a day of Windy Canyon.
Even without discarding your "facts" (I kinda want to put a [citation needed] on half of your post) and using your "rules" how Julio lives, it could just be that he was the last 3 years around Cliffport/Azure City/Greysky City and needed to move out there before something bad happened - and just went to the Western Continent because he had the feeling that Tarquin was going to have some weddings soon.

You can get some idea of why this would not be at all common from the fact that ships use tonnage rather than pounds to measure cargo. A distinctly modest cargo ship of the day could easily hold more that an entire caravan could carry. And the ship would have less guards. So any pirate goes after more pay for less risk and leaves the caravan alone.
[Strictly, there should probably not be air ships and camel caravans in the same world since the air ship can carry so much more. However, if we assume the air ship is rare and very expensive, it's not too much of a stretch.]
We also have to remember a desert is a desert, miles and miles of nothing worth having. There just are not going to be many pirates in any case, and they are likely not getting rich. As a high level Scoundrel would be particularly likely to scorn the desert as small change.

Julio says himself that "it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you look really cool doing it", so doing the safe boring job seems like a claim you should need support. From the first part of your post it is assured that Julio does only awesome dashing stuff, since we only see him either talk about doing so or actually seeing him do so. Where is the evidence he does a boring robbery with a high-reward-low-risk offering?

Jay R

2013-11-28, 12:39 PM

malloyd

2013-11-28, 01:08 PM

We also have to remember a desert is a desert, miles and miles of nothing worth having. There just are not going to be many pirates in any case, and they are likely not getting rich. As a high level Scoundrel would be particularly likely to scorn the desert as small change.

As long as there are trade routes through it, why does it matter what's stationary there. Oceans are miles and miles of nothing worth having too....

But really arguments based on the economics or behavior of actual pirates are pretty worthless. Fictional pirates almost never behave that way.

And as Haley points out to the bandits, in a universe obeying the 3.x rules the Wealth by level rules and the ease with which high level characters slaughter hordes of low level ones means it's suicidal to try to make a living robbing anybody much richer than you are, let alone somebody rich enough to own an entire ship or caravan, so too much logical analysis is going to lead you to the dramatically dull conclusion pirates don't exist.

David Argall

2013-11-28, 01:18 PM

So, if "I'm a sky pirate" is evidence that he is a sky pirate, why isn't "I crashed your previous weddings" and "I did some adventuring stuff in SSaDT (and soon in a Kickstarter story)" evidence that he did something other than pirating?
It would be. But that seems to confirm the non-Western Continent bias for the most part.

But what if said pirate WANTS to move?
Being an Chaotic Dashing Swordsman, I don't think that Julio is the type to live in the same plays for several years (I probably would give him a few weeks, tops).
Our iconic CG is Robin Hood, who is routinely in Sherwood [or some other one] Forest. It would be dubious to say he maintained one camp for years, but that is the picture. [More likely he moved every time it got too messy or the game ran short, but that would be to a different part of the same forest.] So the idea that Scoundrel had to move any great distance is not required, or even supported.

it could just be that he was the last 3 years around Cliffport/Azure City/Greysky City and needed to move out there before something bad happened - and just went to the Western Continent because he had the feeling that Tarquin was going to have some weddings soon.
Not impossible, but even after noting he is more likely not to move than to move, and that we have looked at several reasons why any random move is merely to another part of the main continent, this is pretty much just pretending the problems don't exist.
Scoundrel only needs some low grade spy to learn when a wedding is coming up and since big marriages are scheduled well in advance, he can merely stay on the main continent and plan on a long weekend or so. He would not want to move to the West just because Tarquin is having an wedding. Tarquin is always having a wedding.
Now the idea has been suggested that Scoundrel is here because Tarquin is about to marry, but while there is the male idea of proposal on Thursday and Wedding on Friday, if not faster, the normal process is much slow and even more so when important people are involved. Scoundrel would have plenty of time to fly over to interrupt the wedding. [And we can argue that drama requires he only find out at the last minute so he has to rush all the way, making being on the Western Continent or close to Windy Canyon cheating. {To note Elan here, he has to crash thru a window because the door was open.}]

Julio says himself that "it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you look really cool doing it", so doing the safe boring job seems like a claim you should need support. From the first part of your post it is assured that Julio does only awesome dashing stuff, since we only see him either talk about doing so or actually seeing him do so. Where is the evidence he does a boring robbery with a high-reward-low-risk offering?
Well, that can be the description of his robbery of Azure City heiresses. He is attacking easy targets. But Scoundrel is not doing the safe boring job when he goes to where there are lots of possible victims. If anything, he is avoiding it since sailing around at random produces lots of safe boring time. It is when he has found a victim that he can do the cool deeds.

Bulldog Psion

2013-11-28, 03:08 PM

As long as there are trade routes through it, why does it matter what's stationary there. Oceans are miles and miles of nothing worth having too....

But really arguments based on the economics or behavior of actual pirates are pretty worthless. Fictional pirates almost never behave that way.

And as Haley points out to the bandits, in a universe obeying the 3.x rules the Wealth by level rules and the ease with which high level characters slaughter hordes of low level ones means it's suicidal to try to make a living robbing anybody much richer than you are, let alone somebody rich enough to own an entire ship or caravan, so too much logical analysis is going to lead you to the dramatically dull conclusion pirates don't exist.

Furthermore, there have been some deuced opulent civilizations in semi-arid or arid regions of the world. Especially in a world based around excitement and adventure, the "caliph's jewels" or whatever are likely to be much richer than anything you'd find in a swamp, say.

Not to mention the treasure-stuffed tombs you can be sure are lurking in the cliffs of any fantasy desert region.

Spice trade routes, exotic beasts, tombs, rich cities, bustling ports -- so what if there are sand dunes nearby? That just gives an enterprising pirate somewhere to hide.

Edit: heck, he could probably turn a pretty penny scouting for the warring empires in the Mechane, if he were so inclined.

At this point, though, I suspect that this thread is just being trolled in great detail by a certain poster.

Amphiox

2013-11-28, 03:37 PM

This indeed is what happened to real Robin Hoods/Scoundrels. One author even estimated they rarely have more than a 3 year career [The first year getting a reputation, the 2nd dodging an increasingly angry government, and being killed, usually in ambush, in the third by someone who had decided that reward has grown too large to resist.

NO. That is what happens to real Robin Hoods. But NOT real Scoundrels.

Because there are NO real Scoundrels.

Real people do not have airships. Real people do not have prestige classes and class abilities. Real people don't get to buy magic scrolls, or hire spellcasters. Real people don't get to exploit narrative convention to their own benefit. And real people don't get hit point progression that eventually makes them invulnerable to ambush by typical local authorities.

Absolutely NOTHING about the Robin Hood example applies to Julio Scoundrel.

Indeed the REASON real people, and characters in realistic fictional worlds are so limited in time and range is because of three factors.

1) Mobility - the real world is BIG, and methods of transportation before the modern era are SLOW and EXPENSIVE.

2) Information flow - people in the real world stay where they are familiar. To move out of one's comfort zone is to expose oneself to danger in an unfamiliar environment. A real world Robin Hood's area of operation encompasses the area about which he is familiar and can get information about in a timely fashion. Before the advent of the modern internet, it was HARD to get reliable information about far-off places.

3) Durability - people in the real world are easy to kill. On law of averages alone, their luck runs out much quicker.

But Scoundrel has an airship. And the OotS world is much smaller (the time it took for the Order to cross a continent on foot is less than the time it would have taken the real Robin Hood to cross just the Isle of Britain on horseback in the real world). He also lives in a world where teleport spells exist. So number 1 does not apply.

Scoundrel also lives in a world where the Sending spell, and other similar things, exist. Thus number 2 does not apply.

Scoundrel also lives in a world where he gets to reach a level where he could theoretically get ambushed by local level 1 authorities/mercenaries/thugs multiple times every day and easily survive without sustaining a single wound, nor even getting fatigued. Thus number 3 does not apply.

In a small world, with fast transportation, and fast/instantaneous communication (and a prestige class that lets one PREDICT THE FUTURE with respect to where one should be, no less), the "area of activity" of a Julio Scoundrel character could easily encompass the entire known world.

It is in fact surprising that he only appears to operate on a single plane.

David Argall

2013-11-28, 10:27 PM

NO. That is what happens to real Robin Hoods. But NOT real Scoundrels.

Because there are NO real Scoundrels.

Real people do not have airships.
They have airplanes.

Real people do not have prestige classes and class abilities.
They have abilities the rest of us would be stunned by if they were not so mundane.

Real people don't get to buy magic scrolls, or hire spellcasters.
We buy canned programs that let us do in minutes what would take days by hand and hire experts who do what we have no idea how they do it.

Real people don't get to exploit narrative convention to their own benefit.
They take advantage of our doing things by habit.

And real people don't get hit point progression that eventually makes them invulnerable to ambush by typical local authorities.
And by training and practice, they can become durn close to it.

Absolutely NOTHING about the Robin Hood example applies to Julio Scoundrel.
They are both challengers of the powers that be who spend much of their time in criminal activities which we are supposed to ignore except when they strike figures we dislike. They both engage in risky behavior... Scoundrel is simply Robin Hood as a pirate.

Indeed the REASON real people, and characters in realistic fictional worlds are so limited in time and range is because of three factors.

1) Mobility - the real world is BIG, and methods of transportation before the modern era are SLOW and EXPENSIVE.

2) Information flow - people in the real world stay where they are familiar. To move out of one's comfort zone is to expose oneself to danger in an unfamiliar environment. A real world Robin Hood's area of operation encompasses the area about which he is familiar and can get information about in a timely fashion. Before the advent of the modern internet, it was HARD to get reliable information about far-off places.

3) Durability - people in the real world are easy to kill. On law of averages alone, their luck runs out much quicker.

the OotS world is much smaller (the time it took for the Order to cross a continent on foot is less than the time it would have taken the real Robin Hood to cross just the Isle of Britain on horseback in the real world).
The Order hasn't crossed a continent yet and took several weeks to get part way [Granted, they were not trying to rush since they were prisoners.] Britain is about 300 miles EW and 600 miles NS. Assuming nobody tries to arrest or mug him a Robin Hood could manage either well quicker than the party managed their trip to Azure City, and without needing horse or even pushing himself.

He also lives in a world where teleport spells exist. So number 1 does not apply.
Teleport is a 5th level spell, which costs about 450 GP to cast, which is about 2+ years income for the average worker. Joe Average will walk, and so slow and expensive applies.

Scoundrel also lives in a world where the Sending spell, and other similar things, exist. Thus number 2 does not apply.
Sending = 150 GP. [And you were thinking that snail mail was expensive.] There will be times when the rich will deem that acceptable, but it too is going to be rare and not a part of daily life for the vast majority. A lack of good information is still the case.

Scoundrel also lives in a world where he gets to reach a level where he could theoretically get ambushed by local level 1 authorities/mercenaries/thugs multiple times every day and easily survive without sustaining a single wound, nor even getting fatigued. Thus number 3 does not apply.
Now it happens that I was just reading about a couple of Jane Does who were unfortunate to be stabbed 50-60 times, but fortunate enough to survive. That many wounds would put down some fairly high levels.
The high level does not encounter the 1st level all that often either. Somehow you are routinely facing a foe who will put you down in 6 rounds, but you will put down in 3. Scoundrel has about the same chance to survive an ambush at 5th level as at 20th. So this difference is also not so different.

In a small world, with fast transportation, and fast/instantaneous communication (and a prestige class that lets one PREDICT THE FUTURE with respect to where one should be, no less), the "area of activity" of a Julio Scoundrel character could easily encompass the entire known world.

It is in fact surprising that he only appears to operate on a single plane.
And as noted before, transportation and communication don't change the actual operation of a Scoundrel. He still spend most of his time in a fairly small area.

warrl

2013-11-28, 11:09 PM

I wonder how high-end Sky Pirates are usually depicted in fiction?

That depends.

A sky pirate as a major character would have a primary "safe" place - an actual base he runs and operates out of, or a town/city/nation that takes care of itself but he can operate out of freely because his combination of (rank in society protecting him from prosecution) and (care to not excessively annoy the government) is adequately high. Which probably means he deliberately avoids engaging in much piracy there - or in adjacent countries that this "safe" place's government doesn't want to be at war against.

But why does he have this?

Primarily for the *author's* convenience. It allows for recurring characters that the sky pirate has non-pirate associations with. It allows for recurring settings that aren't on the pirate's ship.

Sure, it's convenient for the pirate to have a place where he can go to sell his loot, get repairs, and resupply. But it would be even more convenient for him to have two such places, or three or four, because it means the enemies he (inevitably) makes won't know where he's going to go after a successful raid. On the other hand, it would be most convenient to hunt for targets *between* those places, so he wants them some significant distance apart.

The less important the sky pirate is as a character (as distinct from a plot element) the more likely he is to travel all over at the speed of plot.

Also, Amphiox overlooked one point in his explanation of why the Robin Hood example doesn't apply. In the Robin Hood world, transportation (particularly long distance) was not merely SLOW and EXPENSIVE. It was also extremely BOTHERSOME and DANGEROUS. Whatever housing, food-storage structures, etc. Robin's Merry Men might have arranged in Sherwood Forest, if they moved to Norwich Forest they'd be leaving those facilities behind and going to a place where they wouldn't have replacements immediately available. Nor would they have such facilities available while traveling. They'd have to pack up all the supplies and gear they were taking with them (making it rather less available for use than is normally the case) and do without the rest. Traveling with all their property would slow them down tremendously, making it easier for the Sheriff's men to catch them and also making them a target for other bandit bands.

Julian has an airship. It's (probably) his normal home. He travels with his house and all his household property - the latter not packed away much more than is normal in a standard attached-to-the-ground home. His household staff is mostly no more occupied by traveling than by staying in one place. His house travels faster than pretty much anything relevant other than another airship or a magic-user with both flight and teleportation. (The third and fourth segments of this story-page about an airship crew (http://airships.paulgazis.com/213/FlyingCloud213.htm) might be edifying and amusing.)

In other words, for Julian it is NOT bothersome or dangerous to travel long distances.

(Oh, and he can hunt for targets in those huge areas full of nothing - because he can afford to hire some people to scry for those targets and arrange to be in the right place to intercept them.)

Shale

2013-11-28, 11:37 PM

As a note on the economics, Scoundrel - or indeed any D&D adventurer of a reasonably decent level - can easily afford to earn his income in a way that's unreliable and full of dry spells, because as long as his crew includes a mid-level cleric or two, they have an unending supply of free food and drink.

Forikroder

2013-11-28, 11:59 PM

veti

2013-11-29, 12:17 AM

They are both challengers of the powers that be who spend much of their time in criminal activities which we are supposed to ignore except when they strike figures we dislike. They both engage in risky behavior... Scoundrel is simply Robin Hood as a pirate.

That's like saying 'Joan of Arc was simply Robin Hood as a knight', or 'George Washington was simply Robin Hood as a general'. At this point you're just tormenting the analogy.

The Order hasn't crossed a continent yet and took several weeks to get part way [Granted, they were not trying to rush since they were prisoners.] Britain is about 300 miles EW and 600 miles NS. Assuming nobody tries to arrest or mug him a Robin Hood could manage either well quicker than the party managed their trip to Azure City, and without needing horse or even pushing himself.

I think you are severely overestimating the quality of medieval roads. On foot, across medieval Britain, you'd be lucky to make much more than about 15 miles a day. There's a reason there are so many rural pubs in England - you can stop every five miles or so for refreshment and rest, if you like, because that's how often people did stop, back in the day. On horseback you could maybe manage twice that, for a small party without baggage.

Historical comparison: King Harald marched his army at forced speed from Stamford Bridge (Yorkshire) to Hastings (south coast) - a distance of 250 miles - in 3 weeks. In 13th century Italy, messengers - who, it's reasonable to suppose, travelled about as fast as was physically possible - covered the 140 miles from Florence to Genoa in 5-7 days.

Teleport is a 5th level spell, which costs about 450 GP to cast, which is about 2+ years income for the average worker. Joe Average will walk, and so slow and expensive applies.

It applies to JA, but not to JS. Robin Hood, on the other hand, didn't have access to the 'teleport' option at any price.

Sending = 150 GP. [And you were thinking that snail mail was expensive.] There will be times when the rich will deem that acceptable, but it too is going to be rare and not a part of daily life for the vast majority. A lack of good information is still the case.

Your prices are scroll prices. The rich and powerful will very likely have full-time caster minions to provide access to these spells on call. (Shojo did.) That makes the marginal cost per casting irrelevant. And again, this is technology that simply wasn't available to Robin Hood, or his enemies, at any price.

And as noted before, transportation and communication don't change the actual operation of a Scoundrel. He still spend most of his time in a fairly small area.

As noted before, this conclusion of yours about "the actual operation" is completely unsupported by any form of evidence. So let's not go drawing conclusions from it.

Liliet

2013-11-29, 03:46 AM

I just want to butt in a bit about pirates being non-existant in DnD.

I doubt that wealth per level guidelines apply to anyone but adventurers. Successful merchants and kings WILL be wealthy, and even if it might be reflected in them being "merchant lvl 20" or "noble lvl 20", they won't have the power and durability of adventurers. And it's pretty obvious that a son of a rich person will inherit the wealth from birth, without gaining any levels, even if you can't make such a character your PC adventurer.

Sure, it's suicidal for adventurers to try and rob other adventurers of higher level than them, just like pirates don't often attack other pirates. Even then, an ambush in a good place might well tip the scale in their favor.

Also, a pirate doesn't need to rob those richer than him. If he has 1000 gp at the start, and once a week robs someone for 250 gp, his wealth will be doubled in a month. And then doubled in two months. If he doesn't level up in the meanwhile and shift to attacking higher-level foes, it will be doubled again in four more months - as a result, in little more than half a year, the wealth is increased eightfold. Pretty good, no? Of course, this does not account for the upkeep cost, but I doubt it will be THAT big.

And the bandits in the Wooden Forest were idiotic precisely because they attacked adventurers and not merchants. There were no merchants stupid enough to go though the Wooden Forest, I guess.

Jay R

2013-11-29, 12:36 PM

David Argall

2013-11-29, 02:45 PM

That's like saying 'Joan of Arc was simply Robin Hood as a knight', or 'George Washington was simply Robin Hood as a general'. At this point you're just tormenting the analogy.
Several points of similarity have been mentioned for Robin Hood/Scoundrel. What points in common do you see with Joan of Arc? who was female vs male, a vigorous supporter of the king vs opponent of the law, died as a result of her efforts vs living well despite their efforts...?

I think you are severely overestimating the quality of medieval roads.

Historical comparison: King Harald marched his army at forced speed from Stamford Bridge (Yorkshire) to Hastings (south coast) - a distance of 250 miles - in 3 weeks.
An army moves as fast as its slowest unit, or it dissolves as the slower units fall behind. [Actually I think that is what did happen to Harald's army. Very few of the soldiers in the North fought in the South. He replaced units from Northern lords with troops from the South. However, it takes to to raise these troops too, and so Harald moved a lot slower than a solitary walker would have.] Armies also move slower just by being bigger. A trail is fine for one walker. For 100 soldiers, they just clog it up and speed goes way down.

In 13th century Italy, messengers - who, it's reasonable to suppose, travelled about as fast as was physically possible - covered the 140 miles from Florence to Genoa in 5-7 days.
I'm not sure I have found the same system, but...
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/472092/postal-system/15424/Growth-of-business-correspondence-in-the-Middle-Ages
describes a system that very much did not travel as fast as physically possible. Rather it followed a schedule and would have been like that bus that slows you up in traffic.

It applies to JA, but not to JS. Robin Hood, on the other hand, didn't have access to the 'teleport' option at any price.
But we are talking about the world, not the special case, and even then, it is doubtful JS would use teleport. That spell is dangerous to use

Your prices are scroll prices.
Which are the same, or lower, than caster prices. Spellcasters charge more when there is any actual danger.

The rich and powerful will very likely have full-time caster minions to provide access to these spells on call. (Shojo did.) That makes the marginal cost per casting irrelevant.
But it is unlikely to lower the average cost per casting. In fact, it probably increases it. The rich pay for that caster to do nothing a lot of the time.

And again, this is technology that simply wasn't available to Robin Hood, or his enemies, at [I]any price.
For most purposes, it would not be available to JS either. This spell is an extremely expensive telegram.

As noted before, this conclusion of yours about "the actual operation" is completely unsupported by any form of evidence. So let's not go drawing conclusions from it.
Do you wish to claim any point is actually wrong? Or even doubtful?

Lord Vukodlak

2013-12-03, 02:32 PM

Well at least he didn't outright lie about it like Obi-Wan did to Luke Skywalker...

Hey that was Yoda's fault he ordered Obi-Wan to remain silent.

Bharaeth

2013-12-04, 08:14 AM

Oh, that I understand. See, by not telling us, it increases the potential for dramatic tension should they ever encounter each other again later in the story. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

Hey, don't know how slow this makes me look, but by clicking on Jay R's link, I was impressed to see that Tarquin's name was probably set even this far back, bu the 'T' in the banner!

CletusMusashi

2013-12-05, 02:21 AM

Furthermore, there have been some deuced opulent civilizations in semi-arid or arid regions of the world. Especially in a world based around excitement and adventure, the "caliph's jewels" or whatever are likely to be much richer than anything you'd find in a swamp, say.

Not to mention the treasure-stuffed tombs you can be sure are lurking in the cliffs of any fantasy desert region.

Spice trade routes, exotic beasts, tombs, rich cities, bustling ports -- so what if there are sand dunes nearby? That just gives an enterprising pirate somewhere to hide.

Edit: heck, he could probably turn a pretty penny scouting for the warring empires in the Mechane, if he were so inclined.

At this point, though, I suspect that this thread is just being trolled in great detail by a certain poster.

You pretty much nailed what I was talking about when I mentioned robbing caravans. In fact, we've even seen rare "spice" and slaves being transported in the same group. So if he frees the slaves and loots the other stuff, the west is a pretty good place to steal for a living while still being flamboyantly heroic.

David Argall

2013-12-05, 12:33 PM

You pretty much nailed what I was talking about when I mentioned robbing caravans. In fact, we've even seen rare "spice" and slaves being transported in the same group. So if he frees the slaves and loots the other stuff, the west is a pretty good place to steal for a living while still being flamboyantly heroic.
Caravans are a petty cash target compared to ships. The camel carries maybe 400 pounds. Even a small ship carries that many tons. Add in that the caravan has lots more crew [who are potential guards as well] and the caravan is a lousy target to raid. It doesn't matter if the goods are spices or corn. You still are way better off going after the ship.

warrl

2013-12-05, 11:12 PM

Caravans are a petty cash target compared to ships. The camel carries maybe 400 pounds. Even a small ship carries that many tons. Add in that the caravan has lots more crew [who are potential guards as well] and the caravan is a lousy target to raid. It doesn't matter if the goods are spices or corn. You still are way better off going after the ship.

If it's the SAME goods, you're generally better off raiding the ship.

But if I'm a high-profile pirate, I'd rather raid a caravan leaving a diamond mine than a ship leaving a coal mine.

And for that matter, it would be a lot easier to hide a few pounds of diamonds on a ship than in a caravan. Meaning that if I'm really after the diamonds, I'd prefer to raid the caravan taking them to the ship as opposed to raiding the ship after they are loaded.

(Besides which, I can be confident that I won't accidentally cause the caravan to sink to the bottom of the ocean.)